Topics in Smash (1 of 3): A Defense of the Banning of Items and Common Misconceptions

[thepsychoripper]

I must say, you explain this with excellence. great video.

[BlizzagaLantean]

I swear, when people argue so much for no items, calling me a scrub and all that shit, it really makes me feel alone in the universe and that I should stop playing Smash Bros. altogether because I hate being looked down upon by elitists.

[Slashtap3]

@BlizzagaLantean Oh? At what point in this video do I make an argument from authority in this video, be it taking the perspective of elitism or talking down the other side as "scrubby" to make a point? My case is airtight and irrefutable. Bringing up your personal experiences in no way addresses my points.

[BlizzagaLantean]

@Slashtap3 I apologize man. I was feeling very down when I wrote that and wasn't addressing you specifically. It's just that I've had a lot of bad run-ins with elitist Smashers.

[GCLU]

@BlizzagaLantean

Elitist smashers. like whom? If it was wifi players, people tend to be asses. Offline, 90-95% of good people are actually nice people.

[BlizzagaLantean]

@GCLU Dude, don't get me started on Wifi players. Not only is it hard enough to actually get into a Wifi battle these days, but when you do, chances are that it will be a bunch of assholes who just stand around and duck up and down the entire match.

[GCLU]

@BlizzagaLantean

If you wish to find nice (but competitive) people, I recommend Allisbrawl. Most really good people ply there. The free-play is nice and relaxed while the ladder is quite competitive.

[DayLaMike]

I like this even though I knew most of this I felt like I just got taught good stuff. It's really annoying to have to keep explaining these misconceptions to casual players who are trying to make a point. I hope more people can see this soon.

I lol'd at the brawl crack...I would find myself in agreement with that statement. I only use brawl for hacks like minus and (hopefully released soon) Project M.

[zoidsmaniac]

I understand where you are coming from, and in a legitimate tournament, I can agree. This being said, I don't believe SSB is a "tournament" kind of game, especially when it's closer to a party game category than a fighter. Taking away the use of items, with some obvious exceptions like the fan, take away from the fun one can have in the game. Obviously this is pure opinion and some find it fun just to fight, but I still stand by what I say.

[Slashtap3]

@zoidsmaniac Actually what you are stating is not an opinion but rather your incorrect judgment based on a constrained understanding of Melee. For example, if I were to look at half of a photograph that had two people running, I might say "one person is chasing the other." Then let's say I look at the rest of the photograph, and the other half had a finish line on it. The I could more accurately conclude that the two people I initially thought were in a chase are in fact racing.

[Slashtap3]

@zoidsmaniac That is to say, whether Melee is a tournament worthy game or is only suitable as a party game is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of seeing enough of the "picture," understanding the meta well enough to reach an informed and accurate conclusion.

[zoidsmaniac]

@Slashtap3 I can understand HOW it can be tournament worthy, but I think that it's not really supposed to be one. You can make it tournament worthy by applying the rules (not sure how to word this), but I believe that by applying these rules it takes away from the fun. Taking away from the fun is what I mean by matter of opinion, not on what genre it is or not. I see it as more of a game made for you to just fuck around with than play seriously, therefore closer to party game than fighter.

[zoidsmaniac]

@Slashtap3 This is still my own view and nothing more. (damn youtube character limit)

[Slashtap3]

@zoidsmaniac Ok, you're talking about its created intent. In that case, that is correct. The smash series, unlike SF, was not programmed with tournament play in mind. However, intent means very little. For example, tennis wasn't invented with topspin in mind. Does topspin take away from the fun of tennis, or add to it? The alley-oop did not exist at basketball's inception, but no one takes that as a prescription to play basketball without it.

[Slashtap3]

@zoidsmaniac George Washington Carver introduced an additional 100+ applications for peanuts that were not originally anyone's intended use of the plant, and none would contend the benefits. With that said, how a game was intended to be played has no bearing on its actual quality. In the 3 examples I gave, man's nature is to explore the depths of knowledge in all things. Melee is just another, and thus there is a heavy case for why playing it deeply is loyal to the inherent concept of fun.

[zoidsmaniac]

@Slashtap3 I'm not really talking about it's created intent. Now that I looked over my comment I worded it pretty badly. When I said "supposed to be one," it wasn't about what Nintendo made the game for, but more so reflecting my view. I'll try and say it differently: I don't view Smash as a competitive game because of the basic gameplay. When you look at how it's commonly played, it's more about just screwing around. It can be changed for tourney play, but I've said my feelings on that.

[2piecess]

@zoidsmaniac "basic game play" All i have to say is please learn this game before you remotely say anything like that. since when is taking away fun from a game, even remotely related to the fact that it is tournament viable? leaving the game up to chance maybe fun to you, but most tournament scenes for any games arent made for happy go lucky noobs. its made for people NOT joking around lol

[TheUltimateSpicy]

For anyone who is not convinced that the competitive smash community has good reason for it's rules. Just ask yourself: Would you pay money to compete at any event that is based off of chance?

[mannimarco3]

This is a wonderful video. You really should be some kind of debater or lawyer.

[Slashtap3]

@mannimarco3 My passion is teaching. I currently teach a lot in various volunteer settings, though one day I hope to teach as a medical doctor.

[MasterKnightDH]

Elitism is elitism.

Also, while some items are plain OP, there are some others that aren't, but still allow you to fucking clean hit somebody who has a stock lead.

[Slashtap3]

@MasterKnightDH Whether items are OP are not is not the reason they are banned. Even if item containers were empty and never contained items, they would still be banned. The fact that some items are a bit too good just bolsters the argument for why they should be banned.

Don't know what you're saying about elitism. Doesn't seem relevant to item banning.

[MasterKnightDH]

@Slashtap3

You can shut off individual items like the Fan and explode on hit explosives, you know.

[Slashtap3]

@MasterKnightDH Yes, but as I just said, items are not banned for being overpowered. Even if all items were turned off and only containers remained (which is a setting you can actually have in a match, though it's not very fun to play with empty containers), items would still be banned. Items are banned for their containers just as much they are banned for spontaneous generation.  We can turn off a bob-omb, but we can't turn off random capsule explosion. =(

[MasterKnightDH]

@Slashtap3

Shut off the Containers.

[thedifinitive]

@MasterKnightDH you CAN'T. that's the problem. it's not an option. you can turn off individual items but not containers themselves. as long as you have items on then capsules and containers will exist.

[MasterKnightDH]

@thedifinitive

Hey, eagle eye. Containers are to the right of the Poke Ball.

[thedifinitive]

@MasterKnightDH hey genius poke ball is in the rightmost column.

[MasterKnightDH]

@thedifinitive

No it isn't.

Oh I get it. You're playing Melee. You're officially off topic.

[thedifinitive]

@MasterKnightDH Oh I get it. You're playing Brawl. In which case the logic is slightly different. The specific examples in this video are related to melee. If you want to change it to brawl you'd have to use slightly different examples. Taking containers and capsules off doesn't solve the randomness problem. Tournaments have been run for years previously with items on, it's a long tested ruleset. You can try to only include the most balanced items but items are inherently unfair.

[thedifinitive]

@MasterKnightDH As soon as you introduce the need to go fetch items you're immediately disadvantaging all slow characters in the game. Do you want everybody to just play fast characters? not really, items lower diversity more than they increase it. Also with most items you can try as hard as you like but they can and will be used to provide a situation where you will die had the other player not luckily been able to pick it up because it spawned near them.

[MasterKnightDH]

@thedifinitive

Slower characters already have the problem of having trouble clean-hitting opponents to kill them.

[thedifinitive]

@MasterKnightDH yeah, so you'd be limiting them EVEN MORE. this is one of the problems with items. the good characters get better and the bad characters get worse.

[MasterKnightDH]

@thedifinitive

No we wouldn't.

[thedifinitive]

@MasterKnightDH in the pants

[MasterKnightDH]

@thedifinitive

Your response makes no sense.

[thedifinitive]

@MasterKnightDH bend over and i'll show you what makes no sense

[MasterKnightDH]

@thedifinitive

I got a better idea. *clean hits you* *camps you like mad so that you can't clean hit me back* Good game.

[thedifinitive]

@MasterKnightDH you can't turn off explosive containers. it's not just explosions that are unfair as well, almost any item you find can be abused in some way. they used to run tournaments with "fair" items on. for several years. "the real pro will adapt" is another argument that comes up. yes, the pros DO adapt in these situations, but when you lose because of the opponent got lucky with his item spawns then it leaves a foul taste in your mouth.

[MasterKnightDH]

@thedifinitive

"Containers - Carrying - Contain items (includes CAPSULES, crates, etc.)."

[UltimaKeyMaster]

@thedifinitive ...What, if you use All Items Off, there's still gonna be explosives? Are you kidding? The option to turn the containers off NEVER leaves the traps behind, it means they are GONE. G. O. N. E. GONE. If you can't turn those containers off, how could you see the classic SHFG method of no items+FD with nothing dropping? Oh, right...THEY'RE GONE! Even turning off ONLY the containers, there's no traps left. I don't even NEED to be competitive to see that. >_>

[thedifinitive]

@UltimaKeyMaster wtf are you talking about? i'm talking about if you go to item select, turn it on to anything other than "none" and switch off every single item individually. in MELEE this has the effect of giving you heaps of empty crates and capsules. if you were paying attention to the nuances of the video you would have picked up that this video is specific to melee, not brawl. you can't turn off crates and capsules specifically in melee.

[thedifinitive]

@MasterKnightDH Also, it's not like we HATE items. i love items. in brawl in particular my favourite way to play is with green shells, bumpers and soccer balls on very high 4 player free for all. but that doesn't mean i want to play like that in tournament. the competitive community tries its hardest to leave in as much as possible while still keeping the game fair. that's what we're about, keeping things as fair as possible. about 80% of our "rules" are there simply to keep everything fair.

[futballerli64]

I think what you would want to emphasize when you were talking about banning cheap moves on characters is that such an act does exist (ICs freeze glitch and sometimes wobbling), but also that this is a different issue from the randomness of luck factors. Melee at the highest level isn't about how easy it is to abuse a move, hence why peach's d-smash isn't better than fox or falco's shine.

[llMurall]

Hi Slashtap.

[JFGBD]

Yes, thanks a lot Slashy. I completely agree with your philosophy, and of course as you said, the higher skilled player isn't afraid of items, but what I tried to say in your other video is what you've reiterated, it's being at the right place at the right time.

[jzhuang3]

"There's nothing that's truly not fun. Except for Brawl. We can say that Brawl is not fun."

*Trollface*

[thedifinitive]

@jzhuang3 I KNOW RIGHT. BEST. CALL. EVER. i love you slash <3<3<3

[gmjacks]

One point on turnips is that both players know once they are pulled what effects it can have. Capsules are an unknown until it is hit.

[Slashtap3]

@gmjacks That is a great point. I would have liked to state this and other things, but it was hard to keep the video short even without more details like that. Great point though.

[harriettheguy]

Misfire is so bullshit. FUCK Luigi.