Part 3 of 10: The Problem of Suffering: the 7 Supernatural Answers vs. the 1 Naturalistic

[Imirror1]

Do You want to become a atheist ? just read the bible.

[ToddAllenGates]

> Do you want to become a atheist ? just read the bible.

It's the skeptic's best defense!

[dragonfighter90]

faces. thank you for listining and please give me a high rating & i'm sorry if I offend but thats my opinion. Thank you & goodday.

[ToddAllenGates]

> sorry if I offend but that's my opinion

No offense taken at all - thanks for taking the time to comment!

[dragonfighter90]

god and karma and changing them into hateful words, i'd rather live a positive life and be grateful i'm alive at all than listin to some of these people go on about it. believe in Karma & god & unite the religions for the better of ur soul & ur life I think so. Godbless anyone that changes their lives from negitive to positive & live a positive life & don't shove ur religion in ppl's faces. I am Believing in eastern & western Religions conjointly in my own time and won't be shoving it in anyone

[dragonfighter90]

can't ya just believe in karma and god at the same time. to live a good and positive life and prey to god, mary and jesus and not get into crazy religious debates that makes us all like a couple of crazy kooks. No wonder why athesists and many people are giving up religion because theres crazy people hijacking the religious faiths and passing them as an excuse to treat all people who don't believe as sinners who are going to bad bad places. its nonsence frankly that people are taking the words

[Antichrist4Life]

Forget invisibility. Even assuming that it's true, how 'bout the argument that it's ridiculous that the entire world should suffer because of the sin of two people, who didn't know any better anyway, because they were created innocent, without knowing the difference between right and wrong? The story of the forbidden fruit is not an argument for suffering at all. It's nonsense.

[ToddAllenGates]

> it's ridiculous that the entire world should suffer because of the sin of two people, who didn't know any better anyway . . . It's nonsense.

It's amazing that it EVER carried any weight—and absolutely *stunning* that there are people today who still believe it!

[wordavee]

What has always seemed illogical to me about reincarnation is, when you start your next life, you would seem to have no memory of the previous one (tho some proffess to), so you have no chance to learn because learning is based on experience.

It's rather like having your second maths lesson without remembering the first.

Also, punishment without knowledge of your crime is just torture, rather than a chance to realise the leason from the mistake and make ammends.

[ToddAllenGates]

> It's rather like having your second math lesson without remembering the first. Also, punishment without knowledge of your crime is just torture

Yes -- well said!

[pooper189]

Well the reason these religions all mirror Christianity is because if you want a good lie- you take the truth and twist it ever so slightly so as to make the lie part of it so insignificant it doesn't strike you. Like on 9-11, a lot of America believed that the terrorists were after us because we're the "brightest beacon of truth and freedom" or whatever GWB said. Its because humans want to believe that we're free and true. Can you go out and take what you want? No, because nothing is free.

[ceezmad1]

to pooper

2 bad for you that many religions are older than christianity!

Christianity is a mix of Jewish and "Zoroantian" religion.

I am sure i misspeled the Z religion.

[pooper189]

Christianity is a spawn of Judaism, I agree.

however, if you look at some of the prophecies in the Bible, I believe you'll see that some of the other religions that spawned around the time of the prophecies had similar themes. Like the god in the Egyptian polytheism that had a "virgin birth." I believe that it was clearly spelled out in the Judaic text before this arose in Egyptian polytheism that the birth of the Christ would come from God, not man. Satan tries to disprove God.

[ceezmad1]

well satan does not exist in the old testament.

Christians "sampled" the devil from Zaroastrians. You should look into that

[pooper189]

Satan is found in the very book Todd references- Job. In Job Chapter one and two it mentions Satan. In Job 1:6-12, Satan is mentioned 7 times. In Job 2:1-7, Satan is mentioned another 7 times. So the Old Testament mentions Satan a minimum of 14 times in this one book. I don't know where you come up with the idea that Satan is a "New Testament" thing.

[RabidAp3]

comment

[hugesinker]

Dude, if you're going to make a comment.. would it kill you to put a little thought into it?

I sure hope this comment-bot idea doesn't catch on, it could do some damage to youtube. :(

[RabidAp3]

leave a thoughtful comment on EVERY VIDEO and get back to me...

[pooper189]

Why would you ever want to spend your day leaving a comment on every video? That is just insanity.

[ReligionIsACrutch]

So if I stab someone in the face with a knife then they deserved it. How will I know that they deserved it? Well they got stabbed in the face, didn't they?

[ToddAllenGates]

1 of 2:

> So if I stab someone in the face with a knife then they deserved it. How will I know that they deserved it? Well they got stabbed in the face, didn't they?

Ha-ha, yes, that's karma for you! The "universe is just," so everything happens for a reason.

This is similar to the logic Genghis-Khan used, and why he "knew" his mass slaughters were fair.

[ToddAllenGates]

2 of 2:

Here's a quote from "Genghis Khan, the History of the World Conqueror," written by the Muslim historian Juvaini (who was an eyewitness to the Mongolian invasion):

"Genghis-Khan ... addressed [the invaded town] as follows: 'O people, know that you have committed great sins ... If you ask me what proof I have for these words, I say it is because I am the punishment of God. If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you'."

[ReligionIsACrutch]

Another question, if everything we do to others is deserved by them and we aren't really doing wrong, how could anyone ever deserve to be punished? If Genghis Khan managed to absolve himself of doing wrong, couldn't anyone? Since suffering a wrong requires the preexistence of committing a wrong, how could there be a "first wrong"?

[ToddAllenGates]

> Another question, if everything we do to others is deserved by them and we aren't really doing wrong, how could anyone ever deserve to be punished?

Ahh, what a tangled web we weave, when we ... when we ... just make shit up. (I think that's how the quote goes!)

[ceezmad1]

For sure, if I ever kill anyone that will be my excuse, God must it wanted it because he allowed me to do it and it was part of gods plan after all!

[banion5]

I've always had a queasiness about karma. It begs a de facto god of some sort because to assume otherwise is to assume that the universe has a consciousness, which seems to devolve into a pantheistic sort of vibe. Things really do make much more sense if we can agree that sh*t happens.

Great set, Todd! This one definitely challenges and prompts what I hope will be good discussion. I've gotten awfully tired of endless concessions for god when the books don't cover the tracks.

[ToddGates]

1 of 2:

> It begs a de facto god of some sort because to assume otherwise is to assume that the universe has a consciousness ...

I agree. Some say Buddhism doesn't contain a deity, but to accept the notion of karma, there has to be some sort of Supernatural Bookkeeper to sort out who gets reincarnated into what & when.

[ToddGates]

2 of 2:

> Things really do make much more sense if we can agree that sh*t happens.

Yes---I talk about that more in the final video of this series.

> Great set, Todd! This one definitely challenges and prompts what I hope will be good discussion.

Thanks: hope you can stay with me to the end!

[hugesinker]

The invisible unicorn will not be mocked.

[AbbeyNormal]

Another problem with Karma is that you aren't even aware of what you're being punished for. You're right to call them inherited crimes, since even if past lives were proven true, how can I really justifiably "pay" for the crimes committed by a completely different person in a different lifetime? What lesson does this teach me, and how does this give meaning and justice to the universe?

[ToddGates]

> how does this give meaning and justice to the universe?

Hi Abbey good to hear from you!

Yes, as I mentioned in my response to 8WholeThing, my feeling is that humans created the notion of karma in an attempt to make sense out of life's injustices ... but it ultimately fails--and ironically, creates *more* injustices along the way (e.g. cripples must deserve their condition!).

[8WholeThing]

The problem I see with karma is that if must imply reincarnation because bad people are rewarded and good people suffer. But if it is fair, I should be able to kick somebody who is suffering for past life transgressions and lessen the length of their punishment, so harming someone is a good thing and should be rewarded. If I aid someone who is suffering, I extend their suffering which would be bad. Else, there is no good and bad, so nobody should suffer.

[ToddGates]

> But if it is fair. . . harming someone is a good thing and should be rewarded. If I aid someone who is suffering, I extend their suffering which would be bad.

I think the incentive for humans to create the belief in karma was a desperate attempt to try to make sense out of life's injustice---but it unintentionally results in all sorts of absurdities, as you rightly point out.