8:25 - 8:41: The important difference is that the battle of Waterloo and George Washington crossing the Delaware aren't physically impossible events, the resurrection of Jesus is. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and a few unverified sources many decades after the supposed events just doesn't cut the mustard. Wilson is hopelessly indoctrinated. It's just that simple. What an extraordinary waste of talent.
@andreasdrg I am not sure I believe in the resurrection of Jesus; but you claim that the resurrection of Jesus is a physically impossible event. This is true if meant in one way but not another. If the universe is a metaphysically closed system, them of course it is impossible for Jesus to rise from the dead; but if God exists, which is not impossible, then there is no a priori reason why God couldn't raise Jesus. The question therefore is about worldview; your's doesn't allow for it.
@bayreuth79 Well ok then. In Wilsons world view, the resurrection of what he believes is the son of a guy who can literally do anything is just as possible as a group of men crossing a river in a couple of boats. However, I don't accept that type of defense of the idea that Jesus came back from the dead. (continued..)
@bayreuth79 (...continued) No one would accept my claim that I've seen a pig grow wings and fly up and eat the planet Jupiter, even if I defended it by saying "well, in my world view, the world is a giant computer simulation where everything is subject to the whims of the programmers, so aaanything is possible".
@andreasdrg It would be unreasonable to say that the resurrection is impossible. But it would be reasonable to say that its very unlikely given the scientific knowledge we have... but yea extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and no sadly no Christian has ever presented evidence that even comes close to extraordinary.
@mrabdrum You're right there, but all I was doing in my original post, really, was comparing probabilities. We have to assign a very low probability indeed for the proposition that Jesus bounced back to life. I know Hitchens has said something along the lines of: What's more likely, that the laws of nature have actually been suspended or that someone somewhere concocted a lie (to his own advantage) that propagated throughout the centuries with the help of like-minded people?
@andreasdrg Yea that's true, now lets try to convince the religious that its unlikely lol... I wonder how can anyone believe that the resurrection is a historical fact without any evidence?
@gerandomiseerd You're right. It's amazing what this man believes. I think every proclamation he makes about believing insane things helps make Christianity sink in the eyes of every viewer that isn't already heavily indoctrinated.
His argument here is REALLY weak. It doesn't take faith with the 'Washington crossing the Potomac' scenario..and its also really unimportant. UFOs have been "seen" buy 1,000 times as many people as witnessed Jesus's "miraculous" nonsense but I guarantee Wilson doesn't buy that...and the UFO stuff is recent and first hand. So on and so forth with other nonsensical claims.
What matters is the truth. This is true, perhaps the most true statement that Wilson puts foward. Even then he says that he believes in his particular faith because he deems the eye witnesses reliable, just as he believes the account of George Washington crossin the Delaware. I was alive at neither the time of the story of the bible nor Washingtons life. But all evidence of reality itself and the knowledge that I have of the world ands its inner workings (something I know very lttle of) contined
Douglas' last statement was his most honest statement........What matters most is the turth.Part of me cant help liking the guy. He is a very likeable person whose rationality is driven by a need for a creator.
@sariglenn Wilson appears likeable here, yes. But go to Amazon and look for a pamphlet he co-wrote called "Southern Slavery: As it Was." Unfortunately it's out of print and expensive but you can glean the basics from the reader reviews. Basically it's Christian revisionist history of the worst kind, and you'll see in the comments that many of the claims in the pamphlet have been thoroughly debunked. It may change your mind about thinking of Wilson as a likeable guy.
@mimmar3891 Oh, I have no doubt that Pastor Douglas Wilson can simultaneously be a likeable guy and hold abhorrent beliefs; those two things are not mutually exclusive, and have certainly coexisted in religious people all throughout history.
How do historians determine the credibility of ancient historical writings? By comparing it to other documents and records from the same time. This is why the Bible is not considered historically valid (besides it's miraculous claims), because it lacks support from other historical records.
@MrAtheism33 "How do historians determine the credibility of ancient historical writings? By comparing it to other documents and records from the same time. " the reason it is credible ..is because of your statement. Many documents have been compared to biblical scriptures, and historians DO consider most of the scriptures as historic. Most historical events have been verified. And the writers have shown to be reliable. Like I said, your Historically false.
@TrueTaike Historians consider the scriptures historical only in the sense of understanding the culture, customs, and politics of the times. Historians do not consider biblical accounts as verifiable events, particularly the miraculous claims. The authors of the Bible are actually quite unreliable, and I can provide you with many reasons if you like. Even many clerics and biblical scholars admit that much of the Bible is incorrect or outright historically invalid.
Wilson's missing Hitchens's point, though, possibly deliberately. A Muslim would give the same answer: "because they happened" -- so he believes. What's the difference? How do you demonstrate the one set to be true and the others to be false to a dispassionate, objective third party? Wilson has no answer. His position is empty. It's rubbish.
I believe because I believe, Wilson is tryn to make ppl misunderstand him. I am a Christian who argues from the transcendental argument just like him, but he's teyn to b difficult
@plato7770 The problem with the "transcendent argument" is that it's not an exclusive one. ANYONE can take the "transcendent argument" from ANY religion.
Wilson closes with the most truthful statement of his discourse, "If Jesus didn't rise from the dead, then we of all men are most to be pitied." We do pity you...that is one reason why atheists try to reason you away from your superstition instead of laughing in your face and insulting you. After all, there was a time when I believed in Santa
The reason you find "demons" so hard to believe in is because of YOUR superstitious stigmas and misappropriations of attributes to them.
Presupposing that God is outside of time, as he created it and thus brought it into existence and was there before it, that means by definition God is hyperdimensional.
Thusly would be a demon, Satan, all angels and cherubim.
Thank you. I find it absurd when Christians resort to the "faith" argument to prove their belief system. Faith, by definition, is believing in an idea without evidence. At that point in the discussion, it brings their belief system down to every other religion; which means they are no different from any other religion. Unfortunately, Christians have changed the definition to make their own and fit into their belief system.
"At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children." -Matthew 11:25
Just maybe it's because we think we are so smart and smarter than our creator. Basically we're saying we are the ultimate reference point of this universe we exist in. We in essence are saying to God- I am God . Why would he reveal His glory to the arrogant and prideful?
Dr. Wilson reveals Hitchens biblical ignorance in embarassing fashion. If you don't know your opponent any better than that why are you debating. It also reveals he is by no means morally neutral. Neutrality is a myth. I wish atheists would at least show Christians enough respect to actually learn their views.
@Nickodemusodurn C Hitchens is religiously illiterate. I have spent several years of my life studying religion at an undergrad and postgrad level at Cambridge and the Sorbonne (Paris) and if Hitchen's knows something about religion then all my professors and all the books I read were wrong and Hitchens (mysteriously) right. He is not a religious scholar- he hasn't produced a single respectable book on religion, just polemical rants. Look at Chris Hedges on Hitchens, for instance.
Im not sure how you can say that. Its very clearly not true, or he wouldnt have stomped so many in debates. I dont think he has ever turned down a debate either. I think his perspective is a lot more human - he looks at the facts of religion, what it has done, how its system controls people.
@theocratickingdom30 I don't have to learn about what people that believe in fairies think or read their books supporting why fairies are real but those leprechauns and trolls are just made up fantasy. I don't respect imaginary BS and niether should you. By the way how do you know that the Koran is not the inspired word of god? or maybe greek mythology? Have you read their books??? Do you understand them?? I was once a believer too, then I read the bible.
A very recent poll came out showing that non-christians are more knowledgable about the bible than actual christians. If christians want to be respected, they should demonstrate more knowledge about their own superstition.
A very recent poll came out showing that non-christians are more knowledgable about the bible than actual christians. If christians want to be respected, they should demonstrate more knowledge about their own superstition.
I love it when others out wit and out smart Hitchens...Really fun to watch. Although, Hitchens does have a good way of getting out of the embarrassment...
I watched Hitchens on a documentary about GOD where he was asked what he thought of the 10 Commandments. He lost his composure completely and almost went into a rage. I think he has more experience with demons than he cares to consider.
@RPM11111 uhhhh because it's not real? I'm assuming god has been in your presence and physically interacted with you to not think it's imaginary? To this day supernatural=imaginary because of lack of physical evidence, simply. Maybe I don't understand your question.
It was embarrassing to even listen to Wilsons counterargument about picking and choosing miracles. "I believe them because I believe them." Worst possible rebuttal you can spout in a debate based on logic; and also a waste of an answer to such an amazing question.
is it possible to recognize wilson's arguments as facile and errant without resorting to stupid insults? hitchens had enough respect for the guy to tour with him and make a documentary. maybe it's asking too much for a bunch of internet scholars to display a modicum of that same respect.
I simply cannot. Even if I'd really want to, I'd be lying to myself. And I actually think that most christians go through the motion of their belief. And when confronted with a thought in opposition to their faith (perhapse a contradiction in their text), they immediately block it out in fear of becoming a doubter.
I speak this from personal experience and the inner turmoil I once had as a young man.
@Domzdream I understand. I still have my doubts and struggles with my faith, but I rejoice, because it makes me feel human. And it makes me wonder if God is really working with me.
Of course it is, I agree. Otherwise we'd never progress. or alter incorrect views on life.
Yup. Keep thinking and questioning. Not that I'm saying I'm better than you, but I used to be at the very spot where you are now. I was 16 at the time. I shed my religion when I was 20 years of age.
@Domzdream I use to an ignorant agnostic, before I became an intellectual Christian. If it wasn't for my faith, I wouldn't of educated myself, and read different books from different point of views.
I've been having an interesting life, since I became a Christian.
No man, it`s not cool when it only works for your private dogmatic Idiology. It has to work for the Peoples around you. Religion don`t works for a live together, it splits mankind in pieces. Religion is as Dawkins says really "the Root of all evil"
I know. He concurs with Hitchens during the questioning, then WHAM slams back into his silly belief, even though he's been clrearly show the errors in his beliefs.
This shows me either his strong indoctrination, or he just isnt that smart afterall.
The reason miracles don't happen these days is that we are better educated, and therefore we discount ridiculous claims more readily. For example if an 'eye witness' account tells a someone that they have just healed someone from AIDS using hands on healing then even it would be disbelieved, but not only that we could perform tests before and after the claim to see if the person had AIDS to begin with, and whether they still do.
Rationality kills religion... religion is history.
"The ones I believe in... Are the ones I believe in!"
I was suspecting this and I am now almos certain of it: Hitchens knows full well that he is beating the guy silly and that the audience knows it too, thats why he chose to tour with Wilson. Like a traveling circus of humiliation when the smiling clown gets pies thrown at his face!
The results speak for the remunerativeness of it all.
When he said, so how can you claim that miracles are only true when they're Calvinist I could hear the foundation cracking from the force of the Hitchslap.
So Jesus, the light of the world and unifying agent of humanity... did a miracle and DIDN'T convince people that he was that agent. Doesn't sound like it would be reasonable to believe now, if it certainly wasn't back then!
"the ones i believe in are the ones i believe in".. you can't get a better example of tautology than that. it is an argument made of absolutly nothing. it's so typical of theists that they can see the falseness of superstitions in every single religion except their own even when they are identical.
Wilson's lame attempt at rebuttal of Hitchens' argument @ around 6:00 minutes in is embarrassing to any well educated person, or I should say, any person capable of critical thinking.
Wilson's lame attempt at rebuttal of Hitchens argument @ around 6:00 minutes in is embarrassing to any well educated person, or I should say, any person capable of critical thinking.
How can Wilson pass off the other religions as counterfeit? They all use the same proofs as he uses to demonstrate the truth of his own religion - and when Hitchens presses him on this point he basically says "Oh it's true because I believe in it".
@9pt9 "Him saved from his horrible faith in purposefulness and hopelessness yet =)" "purposefulness?" have you read anything he's written? maybe you should before saying such stupid things in public.
Douglas Wilson is the first Christian spokesperson I've ever seen be so unabashedly honest about his beliefs. When confronted with a question such as 'How can you say yours is the only true dollar bill', he simply replies "The ones I believe in, are the ones I believe in.". Completely honest, and utterly respectable. He does what so many Christian debaters do not; discuss like a cognisant adult.
Of course he is wrong, and the heavens are indeed empty save for meteorological phenomena =).
the thing hitchens seems to forget is that for every bad thing done in the name of religion, good things have been done too. You cant just look at the bad and then deem it bad. he makes the slavery argument, but forgets that many of the abolitionist were christian too. He forgets many of the great scientist and thinkers like galileo and newton believed in god. So getting rid of religion wont solve the problems of the world. humans will always seek ways to cause problems no matter what.
@jamaicanification that's all fine and dandy that good things happen in religious ways. Hitchens isn't blind to that point. But the point he makes is that religion also grants u a free pass to do bad things. There is no such free path in atheism! in a world without religion bad people will still do bad things but, good people wont! YES we can look at the bad and deem it bad because the bad outways the good especially when the alternative involves no pathway such bad!
Believing in a supreme being(Deism) is very different than being subjected to a particular religion through clerical bullying and intimidation. Religion is the problem, not a belief in a "god". Traditions which claim to hold the answers to the inexplicable and claim to have a relationship with the creator of it all, are the problem, since the holes are filled with human ideas and agendas. Deists(Galileo and Newton) don't arrogantly claim to know and talk to "god" himself.
I'm sorry what? at the very end (9:42) you said, "what matters is the truth", but in Part 2 at 4:45 of this debate in this series you said you don't believe evidence to be foundational. so which one is it?
Wow, around six minutes in Wilson dropped any pretense of rationality and revealed that his beliefs have no logical basis. Maybe the debate's venue made him confident or careless enough to admit the truth. Probably the worst move he could have made with Hitch sitting next to him, short of slamming a goat on the table and trying to sacrifice it.
i believe what i believe.....wow......imagine if science said that...this guy would do anything if it was written in the bible, and he believes in noahs ark, possibly the most ridiculous part of the bible... millions of species of insect & animal all on one boat! hilarious, did noah save all the separate races of human too? hitchens won the argument as soon as he opened his mouth.
I know this is just me, but who can't see that these conversations are on completely different intellectual grounds? Hitchens is so lucid and persuasive and relevant that his words are simply intoxicating consciousness-raisers. Wilson speaks as if he was transported from the 1st Century and given a clean suit.
Wilson at 6:46: "The ones I believe in are the ones I believe in." Reminds me of William Jennings Bryan in the Scopes Trial: "I do not think about things I do not think about."
I'm surprised that Hitchens didn't pick Wilson up on the following point. Hitchens was not arguing on an ontological level, about the being and not-being of certain miracles; instead, he was making an epistemological point that questioned how he could decide between the real and false. One can't say to that, as Douglas did, that they 'were real', as this is ontological, and nor can he really appeal to eye-witnesses, as miracles of all faiths have eye-witnesses.
@TonesH For Wilson say that other miracles are 'counterfeit' and his are not is to completely beg the question against Hitchens' argument. I'm sure he picked up on it, but just didn't choose to respond that way.
@aznmessenjah so what hes a journalist. jesus christ supposedly was a carpenter. doesnt matter the occupation what matters is the message and i have to say christopher is quite compelling, for a reason
@aznmessenjah hitchens is good he just talks in such a way that it isnt as good in "lehmans terms" dawkins talks in such a way that he breaks down his points that almost anyone even the dumb super religious christians (not all christians are dumb) would understand
Logic and reason? LIke what Dougy said about the holy trinity being both a circle and triangle at the same time, and can be demonstrable by simple drawing? It cannot be done. A circle and triangle cannot by definition be the same shape, at the same time. Dougy lost the argument right there, and Im dissapointed HItchens didnt pursuit this simple point.
When I started watching this thing I expected Hitchens to pretty much dominate the discussion, but after watching 6 parts of this thing he hasn't said anything new or insightful against religion. It's all pretty much shallow, out of context, old refutes.. I'm no logician or philosopher but I haven't heard an argument from him yet that I couldn't counter argue just on the basis of Bible. Although it is good to see a level tempered atheist who isn't just motivated by resentment of christianity
The difference between actual historical events and the story of Jesus and his miracles is that there is plenty of written evidence from different and reliable sources. for actual historical events. There is no written evidence or indeed evidence of any kind for the stories of Jesus, except in scripture. Scripture, by it's very nature, is not evidence based.
Wilson's arguments are all so weak.His belief is only a matter of opinion,and just that. H keeps trying to make his opinion into fact. Miracles that defy the laws of nature and without any real evidence whatsoever that don't belong to his religion are bollocks but miracles of the same type that belong to his portion of the christian sect are ok? Even though they are equally unbelievable?
These religion vs reason arguments are just ridiculous. There's just know way people can reconcile the two.
The bible is not a historical document. Eye witness accounts of Napoleon's defeat and etc were written by more than one source during the time (and still subject to biases and stuff such as propaganda), not two hundred years after based on orally passed down accounts. I'd bet that they would've gotten Napoleon's height way wrong if it were. He would also maybe be something supernatural too. These distortions happen with this sort of thing.
Of course, the Universe does not care if the Israelites murdered the Malachites, but that doesn't mean that humans beings cannot care about murder and genocide. Wilson falls back on the Christian assumption that morality can only come from God--a terrible proposition considering the hideous crimes committed in God's name--many described in the Bible. "Right" is that which increases human happiness and "wrong" is that which adds to human suffering.
Douglas Wilson is out of his league , debating with hitch is just to hard for his limited intellect.
The reason that its hard TO DEBATE HIM is because hitch as intelligence , common seance and realty on his side, delusions are not needed in a religious discussion's
unfortunately that's all religious fanatics have, delusions .
"How can you say miracles are true only when they're Calvinist?" Checkmate. Knockout. Or, as we used to say in elementary school, "shot!" Why do these amateurs even bother stepping on stage with Hitchens?
Not to be critical, but I'm suprised Hitchens went for the cherry picking argument when Wilson's whole argument was that Christianity was the lesser of two evils in a desert country 2000 years ago. How does that have any relevance to truth?
@CertainUncertainty the man was intellectually dead before the debate began. he reminds me of tik tok from the film return to oz when his thought coil unwound. he exemplifies my idea of why religion persists and is so difficult to argue against. its not that it has very plausible and logical truths, its just that it exploits human deficiencies.
I chuckle at Douglas stating that the pigs were owned by Israelites and Israelites were asking Jesus to leave lol.
The pigs would have been owned by gentiles. They would have wanted Jesus to leave because he killed all their damned pigs (pun intended). He was killing their economy.
That isn't Wilson's statement. He was quoting the Apostle Paul's first letter to the Corinthians.
"And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men."
Douglas wilson is brilliant!!!
absba9 3 weeks ago in playlist More videos from WestminsterOnline
0:53 the other fella just blinked.
Ha ha.
SuperAhmed1337 1 month ago
Why is God Letting Wilson look silly?
daweller 1 month ago
8:25 - 8:41: The important difference is that the battle of Waterloo and George Washington crossing the Delaware aren't physically impossible events, the resurrection of Jesus is. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and a few unverified sources many decades after the supposed events just doesn't cut the mustard. Wilson is hopelessly indoctrinated. It's just that simple. What an extraordinary waste of talent.
andreasdrg 4 months ago
@andreasdrg I am not sure I believe in the resurrection of Jesus; but you claim that the resurrection of Jesus is a physically impossible event. This is true if meant in one way but not another. If the universe is a metaphysically closed system, them of course it is impossible for Jesus to rise from the dead; but if God exists, which is not impossible, then there is no a priori reason why God couldn't raise Jesus. The question therefore is about worldview; your's doesn't allow for it.
bayreuth79 1 month ago
@bayreuth79 Well ok then. In Wilsons world view, the resurrection of what he believes is the son of a guy who can literally do anything is just as possible as a group of men crossing a river in a couple of boats. However, I don't accept that type of defense of the idea that Jesus came back from the dead. (continued..)
andreasdrg 1 month ago
@bayreuth79 (...continued) No one would accept my claim that I've seen a pig grow wings and fly up and eat the planet Jupiter, even if I defended it by saying "well, in my world view, the world is a giant computer simulation where everything is subject to the whims of the programmers, so aaanything is possible".
andreasdrg 1 month ago
@andreasdrg It would be unreasonable to say that the resurrection is impossible. But it would be reasonable to say that its very unlikely given the scientific knowledge we have... but yea extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and no sadly no Christian has ever presented evidence that even comes close to extraordinary.
mrabdrum 1 month ago
@mrabdrum You're right there, but all I was doing in my original post, really, was comparing probabilities. We have to assign a very low probability indeed for the proposition that Jesus bounced back to life. I know Hitchens has said something along the lines of: What's more likely, that the laws of nature have actually been suspended or that someone somewhere concocted a lie (to his own advantage) that propagated throughout the centuries with the help of like-minded people?
andreasdrg 1 month ago
@andreasdrg Yea that's true, now lets try to convince the religious that its unlikely lol... I wonder how can anyone believe that the resurrection is a historical fact without any evidence?
mrabdrum 1 month ago
Wilson is too honest to be a good apologetic. It's disturbing that probably many people share his twisted logic.
gerandomiseerd 5 months ago
@gerandomiseerd You're right. It's amazing what this man believes. I think every proclamation he makes about believing insane things helps make Christianity sink in the eyes of every viewer that isn't already heavily indoctrinated.
andreasdrg 4 months ago
His argument here is REALLY weak. It doesn't take faith with the 'Washington crossing the Potomac' scenario..and its also really unimportant. UFOs have been "seen" buy 1,000 times as many people as witnessed Jesus's "miraculous" nonsense but I guarantee Wilson doesn't buy that...and the UFO stuff is recent and first hand. So on and so forth with other nonsensical claims.
2003SCT 5 months ago
continued George Washingtons crossing the Delaware river is more plausible.
dalhar20 7 months ago
What matters is the truth. This is true, perhaps the most true statement that Wilson puts foward. Even then he says that he believes in his particular faith because he deems the eye witnesses reliable, just as he believes the account of George Washington crossin the Delaware. I was alive at neither the time of the story of the bible nor Washingtons life. But all evidence of reality itself and the knowledge that I have of the world ands its inner workings (something I know very lttle of) contined
dalhar20 7 months ago
Douglas' last statement was his most honest statement........What matters most is the turth.Part of me cant help liking the guy. He is a very likeable person whose rationality is driven by a need for a creator.
sariglenn 7 months ago
@sariglenn Wilson appears likeable here, yes. But go to Amazon and look for a pamphlet he co-wrote called "Southern Slavery: As it Was." Unfortunately it's out of print and expensive but you can glean the basics from the reader reviews. Basically it's Christian revisionist history of the worst kind, and you'll see in the comments that many of the claims in the pamphlet have been thoroughly debunked. It may change your mind about thinking of Wilson as a likeable guy.
mimmar3891 7 months ago
@mimmar3891 Oh, I have no doubt that Pastor Douglas Wilson can simultaneously be a likeable guy and hold abhorrent beliefs; those two things are not mutually exclusive, and have certainly coexisted in religious people all throughout history.
writersblock26 5 months ago
I'm curious as to why it's taking so long for Wilson to put his hat on. I guess he's even more delusional than is apparent.
YY4Me133 7 months ago
How do historians determine the credibility of ancient historical writings? By comparing it to other documents and records from the same time. This is why the Bible is not considered historically valid (besides it's miraculous claims), because it lacks support from other historical records.
MrAtheism33 8 months ago 3
@MrAtheism33 you are historically false.
TrueTaike 7 months ago
@TrueTaike if you have sources which point to the contrary, please share
MrAtheism33 7 months ago 3
@MrAtheism33 "How do historians determine the credibility of ancient historical writings? By comparing it to other documents and records from the same time. " the reason it is credible ..is because of your statement. Many documents have been compared to biblical scriptures, and historians DO consider most of the scriptures as historic. Most historical events have been verified. And the writers have shown to be reliable. Like I said, your Historically false.
TrueTaike 7 months ago
@TrueTaike Historians consider the scriptures historical only in the sense of understanding the culture, customs, and politics of the times. Historians do not consider biblical accounts as verifiable events, particularly the miraculous claims. The authors of the Bible are actually quite unreliable, and I can provide you with many reasons if you like. Even many clerics and biblical scholars admit that much of the Bible is incorrect or outright historically invalid.
MrAtheism33 7 months ago 4
i can definitely see the pity Hitchens has for Wilson.
Davidellulthorn 8 months ago 2
i heard this once before
"with Wilson, you know your hitting a wall before you start"
Hitchens likes the man though, bizarre as that is, but the fact of the matter is, one cannot sway religious mind.
dedeincre 9 months ago
Wilson's missing Hitchens's point, though, possibly deliberately. A Muslim would give the same answer: "because they happened" -- so he believes. What's the difference? How do you demonstrate the one set to be true and the others to be false to a dispassionate, objective third party? Wilson has no answer. His position is empty. It's rubbish.
PatchesRips 9 months ago
If you close your eyes while watching this, you will hear Hitchens debating against Steve Martin. Try it, they sound almost exactly alike.
Corellian 9 months ago
"How can you manage to say miracles are only true when they are Calvinist?".... no good answer
shortfuse41 9 months ago
Why are your miracles true? "Because I believe them." *facepalm*
mrlandby 10 months ago 2
"The one's I believe in are the one's I believe in". Not a very compelling argument.
Kristophirst 10 months ago
@Kristophirst I would go further- it's not even an argument.
writersblock26 9 months ago
I believe because I believe, Wilson is tryn to make ppl misunderstand him. I am a Christian who argues from the transcendental argument just like him, but he's teyn to b difficult
plato7770 10 months ago
@plato7770 The problem with the "transcendent argument" is that it's not an exclusive one. ANYONE can take the "transcendent argument" from ANY religion.
Kristophirst 10 months ago
Wilson closes with the most truthful statement of his discourse, "If Jesus didn't rise from the dead, then we of all men are most to be pitied." We do pity you...that is one reason why atheists try to reason you away from your superstition instead of laughing in your face and insulting you. After all, there was a time when I believed in Santa
HoffaInExile 10 months ago
Missing part 5 it seems.
adknerr 10 months ago
@adknerr
Part 5 can be found here: /watch?v=PoO26J5EP4I
666arzin 9 months ago
I facepalmed so hard at 6:44 that I nearly knocked myself out...
What a tool!
everything543210 10 months ago
The reason you find "demons" so hard to believe in is because of YOUR superstitious stigmas and misappropriations of attributes to them.
Presupposing that God is outside of time, as he created it and thus brought it into existence and was there before it, that means by definition God is hyperdimensional.
Thusly would be a demon, Satan, all angels and cherubim.
Typical atheistic ad hominem remark...
"grown man in a suit is talking about demons!"
And to think atheists talk about "copouts".
4cellar2door0 10 months ago
@4cellar2door0
Why did/does God tolerate the existence of Satan and demons if he is all powerful and just?
WiseMosquito 10 months ago 2
@WiseMosquito Are you asking why evil exists?
Are you asking why Satan was created?
Be more specific.
4cellar2door0 10 months ago
It's strange to me how Wilson sees the nonsense in other religions (Whitchcraft Shamenism etc) but does not do this for his own religious belief.
simpsonmark 11 months ago 10
@A2thedouble
Thank you. I find it absurd when Christians resort to the "faith" argument to prove their belief system. Faith, by definition, is believing in an idea without evidence. At that point in the discussion, it brings their belief system down to every other religion; which means they are no different from any other religion. Unfortunately, Christians have changed the definition to make their own and fit into their belief system.
mrjholland1 11 months ago
@mrjholland1 true
A2thedouble 11 months ago
"The ones I believe in, are the one I believe in."
LOL religious people are just unintelligent.
NaztyNayt 11 months ago
Who made who :)
secularnevrosis 11 months ago
If Christians truly "believed" or had "faith", then why do they wear seatbelts or recycle?
mrjholland1 1 year ago
@mrjholland1 good question. if christians have "faith" why do they go to doctors? why don't they just pray?
A2thedouble 11 months ago
"At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children." -Matthew 11:25
Just maybe it's because we think we are so smart and smarter than our creator. Basically we're saying we are the ultimate reference point of this universe we exist in. We in essence are saying to God- I am God . Why would he reveal His glory to the arrogant and prideful?
jdefazio000 1 year ago
Part 7 seems to have gone from the list on the right, search says its at
/watch?v=TlaJWjuhcUs
Thanks for posting WestminsterOnline!
sustaincain 1 year ago
It was a guy named Legion, not a woman, alright?
sinofalchemy 1 year ago
Oops, Wilson dug himself a large hole at the end here. The next part is gonna be fun then xD
Darkdude929 1 year ago
"faith" = denying truth, science, logic, nature and reason. remove the "faith" part of the scam known as religion, and it falls apart.
DNRvideos 1 year ago
Dr. Wilson reveals Hitchens biblical ignorance in embarassing fashion. If you don't know your opponent any better than that why are you debating. It also reveals he is by no means morally neutral. Neutrality is a myth. I wish atheists would at least show Christians enough respect to actually learn their views.
theocratickingdom30 1 year ago
@theocratickingdom30
Hitchens probably knows more about religion (overall) than 99.99% of people.
Nickodemusodurn 1 year ago 18
@Nickodemusodurn C Hitchens is religiously illiterate. I have spent several years of my life studying religion at an undergrad and postgrad level at Cambridge and the Sorbonne (Paris) and if Hitchen's knows something about religion then all my professors and all the books I read were wrong and Hitchens (mysteriously) right. He is not a religious scholar- he hasn't produced a single respectable book on religion, just polemical rants. Look at Chris Hedges on Hitchens, for instance.
bayreuth79 1 month ago
@bayreuth79
Im not sure how you can say that. Its very clearly not true, or he wouldnt have stomped so many in debates. I dont think he has ever turned down a debate either. I think his perspective is a lot more human - he looks at the facts of religion, what it has done, how its system controls people.
Nickodemusodurn 1 month ago
@theocratickingdom30 I don't have to learn about what people that believe in fairies think or read their books supporting why fairies are real but those leprechauns and trolls are just made up fantasy. I don't respect imaginary BS and niether should you. By the way how do you know that the Koran is not the inspired word of god? or maybe greek mythology? Have you read their books??? Do you understand them?? I was once a believer too, then I read the bible.
Cougar139tweak 1 year ago
@theocratickingdom30
A very recent poll came out showing that non-christians are more knowledgable about the bible than actual christians. If christians want to be respected, they should demonstrate more knowledge about their own superstition.
coolal19 1 year ago
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@theocratickingdom30
A very recent poll came out showing that non-christians are more knowledgable about the bible than actual christians. If christians want to be respected, they should demonstrate more knowledge about their own superstition.
coolal19 1 year ago
I love it when others out wit and out smart Hitchens...Really fun to watch. Although, Hitchens does have a good way of getting out of the embarrassment...
buitrami 1 year ago
I watched Hitchens on a documentary about GOD where he was asked what he thought of the 10 Commandments. He lost his composure completely and almost went into a rage. I think he has more experience with demons than he cares to consider.
RPM11111 1 year ago
@RPM11111 i dont like being told what to do by something imaginary and im burning forever if i dont do it, either. You like that?
brianwurst1234 1 year ago
@brianwurst1234
No, I don't like it. I'd much rather you didn't burn forever.
How can you be so sure it's imaginary?
RPM11111 1 year ago
@RPM11111 uhhhh because it's not real? I'm assuming god has been in your presence and physically interacted with you to not think it's imaginary? To this day supernatural=imaginary because of lack of physical evidence, simply. Maybe I don't understand your question.
brianwurst1234 1 year ago
@brianwurst1234
So all things that are true must have 'physical' evidence?
RPM11111 1 year ago
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@brianwurst1234
So all things that are true must have 'physical' evidence?
RPM11111 1 year ago
The forgery point won this for Hitchens. Owned!
iamadamsusername 1 year ago
It was embarrassing to even listen to Wilsons counterargument about picking and choosing miracles. "I believe them because I believe them." Worst possible rebuttal you can spout in a debate based on logic; and also a waste of an answer to such an amazing question.
Raelsatu 1 year ago
is it possible to recognize wilson's arguments as facile and errant without resorting to stupid insults? hitchens had enough respect for the guy to tour with him and make a documentary. maybe it's asking too much for a bunch of internet scholars to display a modicum of that same respect.
misterbizzones 1 year ago
I cannot believe this grow man, clearly intellignet, believes in demons and devils and witches and all that nonsense. It's embarrassing.
Domzdream 1 year ago
@Domzdream It's easy. Just believe in it.
Transformers217 1 year ago
@Transformers217
I simply cannot. Even if I'd really want to, I'd be lying to myself. And I actually think that most christians go through the motion of their belief. And when confronted with a thought in opposition to their faith (perhapse a contradiction in their text), they immediately block it out in fear of becoming a doubter.
I speak this from personal experience and the inner turmoil I once had as a young man.
Domzdream 1 year ago
@Domzdream I understand. I still have my doubts and struggles with my faith, but I rejoice, because it makes me feel human. And it makes me wonder if God is really working with me.
Sometimes, it's good to doubt.
Transformers217 1 year ago
@Transformers217
Of course it is, I agree. Otherwise we'd never progress. or alter incorrect views on life.
Yup. Keep thinking and questioning. Not that I'm saying I'm better than you, but I used to be at the very spot where you are now. I was 16 at the time. I shed my religion when I was 20 years of age.
Domzdream 1 year ago
@Domzdream I use to an ignorant agnostic, before I became an intellectual Christian. If it wasn't for my faith, I wouldn't of educated myself, and read different books from different point of views.
I've been having an interesting life, since I became a Christian.
Transformers217 1 year ago
@Transformers217
Hey. It's cool. Whatever works for you man.
Domzdream 1 year ago
@Domzdream
No man, it`s not cool when it only works for your private dogmatic Idiology. It has to work for the Peoples around you. Religion don`t works for a live together, it splits mankind in pieces. Religion is as Dawkins says really "the Root of all evil"
gurkensirup 1 year ago
"How do you know god doesnt exist?"
"No, the question is, how do you know god does exists?"
Kan2209 1 year ago 2
When Wilson said that he was okay with killing a group of people because god commanded it I think I would not have felt safe sitting next to him.
BrainInSkull 1 year ago 2
wilson is a complete idiot
slaughtersaults 1 year ago
@slaughtersaults
I know. He concurs with Hitchens during the questioning, then WHAM slams back into his silly belief, even though he's been clrearly show the errors in his beliefs.
This shows me either his strong indoctrination, or he just isnt that smart afterall.
Domzdream 1 year ago
I've been watching this debate and this is the segment that the wheels come off for Wilson.
trappedwarrior 1 year ago
@trappedwarrior Yes. "I believe because I believe" is the only net Wilson has. There's no substance in it at all and there's no way to argue it.
BrainInSkull 1 year ago
Hitch-slapped!!!
spent9109 1 year ago
The reason miracles don't happen these days is that we are better educated, and therefore we discount ridiculous claims more readily. For example if an 'eye witness' account tells a someone that they have just healed someone from AIDS using hands on healing then even it would be disbelieved, but not only that we could perform tests before and after the claim to see if the person had AIDS to begin with, and whether they still do.
Rationality kills religion... religion is history.
mikeyo1234 1 year ago
"The ones I believe in... Are the ones I believe in!"
I was suspecting this and I am now almos certain of it: Hitchens knows full well that he is beating the guy silly and that the audience knows it too, thats why he chose to tour with Wilson. Like a traveling circus of humiliation when the smiling clown gets pies thrown at his face!
The results speak for the remunerativeness of it all.
latuman 1 year ago
what an idiot. what highschool did he not finish exactly now?
trannyniggr 1 year ago
@trannyniggr He is very well educated... he's got a Phd in severe mental retardation.
mikeyo1234 1 year ago
When he said, so how can you claim that miracles are only true when they're Calvinist I could hear the foundation cracking from the force of the Hitchslap.
AHPMB 1 year ago
"Why? Because it happened".
Wilson's answers are astoundingly stubborn and blind-sighted.
Even the predominantly religious crowd is dumb-founded by the childishness of his replies.
everything543210 1 year ago
"because it happened" Right.. that's the way grown-ups debate.
indeficit2 1 year ago
This guy's got nothing... absolutely nothing... It's like watching Hitchens debate a high school kid.
indeficit2 1 year ago 3
So Jesus, the light of the world and unifying agent of humanity... did a miracle and DIDN'T convince people that he was that agent. Doesn't sound like it would be reasonable to believe now, if it certainly wasn't back then!
BrellK 1 year ago
I believe what I believe because I believe what I believe. I win.
rcguy69 1 year ago 61
"the ones i believe in are the ones i believe in".. you can't get a better example of tautology than that. it is an argument made of absolutly nothing. it's so typical of theists that they can see the falseness of superstitions in every single religion except their own even when they are identical.
scudder91 1 year ago
6:44 WE HAVE AN HERO!
applemactipsguy 1 year ago
If wilson "loves the lord his god with all his brains", god´s gonna send him to hell big time stiley.
yatter1 1 year ago
"The ones I believe in are the ones I believe in."
*facepalm*
Jcm9991 1 year ago 3
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Wilson's lame attempt at rebuttal of Hitchens' argument @ around 6:00 minutes in is embarrassing to any well educated person, or I should say, any person capable of critical thinking.
diogeron 1 year ago
Wilson's lame attempt at rebuttal of Hitchens argument @ around 6:00 minutes in is embarrassing to any well educated person, or I should say, any person capable of critical thinking.
diogeron 1 year ago 2
How can Wilson pass off the other religions as counterfeit? They all use the same proofs as he uses to demonstrate the truth of his own religion - and when Hitchens presses him on this point he basically says "Oh it's true because I believe in it".
Resenbrink 1 year ago
A grown, educated man trying to explain fucking fairey tales with a straight face as if these things actually happened.
BillKiernan 1 year ago 3
Hitchens is being particularly non-arrogant for once. Good to see. Maybe we can get
Him saved from his horrible faith in purposefulness and hopelessness yet =)
9pt9 1 year ago
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@9pt9 "Him saved from his horrible faith in purposefulness and hopelessness yet =)" "purposefulness?" have you read anything he's written? maybe you should before saying such stupid things in public.
BillKiernan 1 year ago
this is the nicest I have ever seen Christopher Hitchens.
pungadoo 1 year ago
HItchens is a clever con man, but just a con man.
DetectiveTackett 1 year ago
@DetectiveTackett Might you elaborate on, "con man"?
komododr 1 year ago
@DetectiveTackett
a con man?? do you not know reson when u see it? or has religion washed that ability out of u?
bryton909 1 year ago
Douglas Wilson is the first Christian spokesperson I've ever seen be so unabashedly honest about his beliefs. When confronted with a question such as 'How can you say yours is the only true dollar bill', he simply replies "The ones I believe in, are the ones I believe in.". Completely honest, and utterly respectable. He does what so many Christian debaters do not; discuss like a cognisant adult.
Of course he is wrong, and the heavens are indeed empty save for meteorological phenomena =).
riKringkast 1 year ago 3
the thing hitchens seems to forget is that for every bad thing done in the name of religion, good things have been done too. You cant just look at the bad and then deem it bad. he makes the slavery argument, but forgets that many of the abolitionist were christian too. He forgets many of the great scientist and thinkers like galileo and newton believed in god. So getting rid of religion wont solve the problems of the world. humans will always seek ways to cause problems no matter what.
jamaicanification 1 year ago
@jamaicanification that's all fine and dandy that good things happen in religious ways. Hitchens isn't blind to that point. But the point he makes is that religion also grants u a free pass to do bad things. There is no such free path in atheism! in a world without religion bad people will still do bad things but, good people wont! YES we can look at the bad and deem it bad because the bad outways the good especially when the alternative involves no pathway such bad!
salijor 1 year ago
@jamaicanification
Believing in a supreme being(Deism) is very different than being subjected to a particular religion through clerical bullying and intimidation. Religion is the problem, not a belief in a "god". Traditions which claim to hold the answers to the inexplicable and claim to have a relationship with the creator of it all, are the problem, since the holes are filled with human ideas and agendas. Deists(Galileo and Newton) don't arrogantly claim to know and talk to "god" himself.
coercingcoexistence 1 year ago
After this part Douglas Wilson looks like an uneducated bigot.
2009OLP 1 year ago
I'm sorry what? at the very end (9:42) you said, "what matters is the truth", but in Part 2 at 4:45 of this debate in this series you said you don't believe evidence to be foundational. so which one is it?
cabiediger09 1 year ago
I feel embarrassed for Wilson.
RavenAmongDoves 1 year ago
In the end, here is Doug's argument.
"I am right because I am right."
FAIL!
steagle1017 1 year ago 2
5:25 hah! 8:10 hahahaha. Sorry. All too easy..
mku17ra 1 year ago
Hitchens owns. Wilson was defeated by his own ridiculous claims and argument.
Toughndeadly 1 year ago 2
It's a really surreal thing to watch a man in a suit sincerely talking about demons.
Epistemofo 1 year ago 42
@Epistemofo
Astonishing! A man who ascribes topics of discussion to clothing.
What next?
RPM11111 1 year ago
Wow, around six minutes in Wilson dropped any pretense of rationality and revealed that his beliefs have no logical basis. Maybe the debate's venue made him confident or careless enough to admit the truth. Probably the worst move he could have made with Hitch sitting next to him, short of slamming a goat on the table and trying to sacrifice it.
FuzzyWhisper 1 year ago 2
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FuzzyWhisper 1 year ago
i believe what i believe.....wow......imagine if science said that...this guy would do anything if it was written in the bible, and he believes in noahs ark, possibly the most ridiculous part of the bible... millions of species of insect & animal all on one boat! hilarious, did noah save all the separate races of human too? hitchens won the argument as soon as he opened his mouth.
LowleyUK 1 year ago 6
I know this is just me, but who can't see that these conversations are on completely different intellectual grounds? Hitchens is so lucid and persuasive and relevant that his words are simply intoxicating consciousness-raisers. Wilson speaks as if he was transported from the 1st Century and given a clean suit.
sccitylhh 1 year ago 4
Wilson at 6:46: "The ones I believe in are the ones I believe in." Reminds me of William Jennings Bryan in the Scopes Trial: "I do not think about things I do not think about."
basboll 1 year ago
@basboll I liked Clarence Darrows retort "Do you ever think about the things you do think about?"
panterguy 1 year ago 3
I'm surprised that Hitchens didn't pick Wilson up on the following point. Hitchens was not arguing on an ontological level, about the being and not-being of certain miracles; instead, he was making an epistemological point that questioned how he could decide between the real and false. One can't say to that, as Douglas did, that they 'were real', as this is ontological, and nor can he really appeal to eye-witnesses, as miracles of all faiths have eye-witnesses.
TonesH 1 year ago
@TonesH For Wilson say that other miracles are 'counterfeit' and his are not is to completely beg the question against Hitchens' argument. I'm sure he picked up on it, but just didn't choose to respond that way.
eulercircles 1 year ago
Christopher Hitchens does not know how to make or sustain an argument. He is a phony. Richard Dawkins is on the other hand a genuine intellectual.
aznmessenjah 1 year ago
@aznmessenjah hitchens is very intellectual u must be mistaken
pajamaman88 1 year ago
@pajamaman88 He is a journalist looking to make a name for himself. Speaking with a British accent does not make you an intellectual.
aznmessenjah 1 year ago
@aznmessenjah so what hes a journalist. jesus christ supposedly was a carpenter. doesnt matter the occupation what matters is the message and i have to say christopher is quite compelling, for a reason
pajamaman88 1 year ago
@aznmessenjah hitchens is good he just talks in such a way that it isnt as good in "lehmans terms" dawkins talks in such a way that he breaks down his points that almost anyone even the dumb super religious christians (not all christians are dumb) would understand
dcderek24 1 year ago
Wilson should put up his cap on his head and keep it...
Acrimonator 1 year ago
@koabarra
Logic and reason? LIke what Dougy said about the holy trinity being both a circle and triangle at the same time, and can be demonstrable by simple drawing? It cannot be done. A circle and triangle cannot by definition be the same shape, at the same time. Dougy lost the argument right there, and Im dissapointed HItchens didnt pursuit this simple point.
Domzdream 1 year ago
I cant believe this grown up man actually believes in demons and monsters! I just cannot actually believe this. You theists hahahaha! Like children.
Domzdream 1 year ago
religious people r mentally disordered. its not an insult. its my observation and opinion.
TheAtheistworld 1 year ago
When I started watching this thing I expected Hitchens to pretty much dominate the discussion, but after watching 6 parts of this thing he hasn't said anything new or insightful against religion. It's all pretty much shallow, out of context, old refutes.. I'm no logician or philosopher but I haven't heard an argument from him yet that I couldn't counter argue just on the basis of Bible. Although it is good to see a level tempered atheist who isn't just motivated by resentment of christianity
martkac 1 year ago
The difference between actual historical events and the story of Jesus and his miracles is that there is plenty of written evidence from different and reliable sources. for actual historical events. There is no written evidence or indeed evidence of any kind for the stories of Jesus, except in scripture. Scripture, by it's very nature, is not evidence based.
roac7777 1 year ago
Hitchens: "How do u know your miracles are correct and all others aren't"
Wilson: "Oh... The ones I believe in are the ones I believe in."
yea good proof there guy. :-\
xenorun 1 year ago 3
If Wilson claims he can't pick and choose from the bible, why isn't he stoning sinners to death, burning witches, or raping virgins?
boynamedsu18 1 year ago 3
O my! What a utter hammering! Go Hitch!
tommiatkins 1 year ago 2
I must cringe when DW explains christian real miracles versus other religions' false miracles.
flabbyhabbybabby1 1 year ago 3
Wilson's arguments are all so weak.His belief is only a matter of opinion,and just that. H keeps trying to make his opinion into fact. Miracles that defy the laws of nature and without any real evidence whatsoever that don't belong to his religion are bollocks but miracles of the same type that belong to his portion of the christian sect are ok? Even though they are equally unbelievable?
These religion vs reason arguments are just ridiculous. There's just know way people can reconcile the two.
xSilverPhinx 1 year ago
The bible is not a historical document. Eye witness accounts of Napoleon's defeat and etc were written by more than one source during the time (and still subject to biases and stuff such as propaganda), not two hundred years after based on orally passed down accounts. I'd bet that they would've gotten Napoleon's height way wrong if it were. He would also maybe be something supernatural too. These distortions happen with this sort of thing.
xSilverPhinx 1 year ago
hitchens giving a shout out to sagan! yeah!!!!!
sweetpeajunglebean 1 year ago
4:20 till 5:50. ABSOLUTE ATHEIST ORGASM AT THE HANDS OF HITCHENS. Best Hitchens moment I've ever witnessed.
GetYourAlbatros 1 year ago
I particularly liked the part when Wilson said: I believe in what I believe... He was realy geting out of arguments...
2CSST2 1 year ago
Of course, the Universe does not care if the Israelites murdered the Malachites, but that doesn't mean that humans beings cannot care about murder and genocide. Wilson falls back on the Christian assumption that morality can only come from God--a terrible proposition considering the hideous crimes committed in God's name--many described in the Bible. "Right" is that which increases human happiness and "wrong" is that which adds to human suffering.
DandAinTac 1 year ago
They might as well have gotten rain man to debate Hitchens :)
MrSalamander7 1 year ago
Douglas Wilson is out of his league , debating with hitch is just to hard for his limited intellect.
The reason that its hard TO DEBATE HIM is because hitch as intelligence , common seance and realty on his side, delusions are not needed in a religious discussion's
unfortunately that's all religious fanatics have, delusions .
adlerbr12 1 year ago
yeah wow Hitchens just shitted all over him in this segment.
erikmania 1 year ago 4
"How can you say miracles are true only when they're Calvinist?" Checkmate. Knockout. Or, as we used to say in elementary school, "shot!" Why do these amateurs even bother stepping on stage with Hitchens?
Brahmsfourth 1 year ago 2
Not to be critical, but I'm suprised Hitchens went for the cherry picking argument when Wilson's whole argument was that Christianity was the lesser of two evils in a desert country 2000 years ago. How does that have any relevance to truth?
Sylosis333 1 year ago
WOW. Hitchens mopped the floor with this guy in this segment.
KomicGenius 1 year ago 5
The ones I believe in are the ones I believe in? How does he think that makes since?
floydsexploding 1 year ago 5
6:44 Wilson commits intellectual suicide
CertainUncertainty 1 year ago 85
I thought it was 8:03 "because they happened". Perfectly circular reasoning
elfred1980 1 year ago
Totally a solid argument.
I take it on faith, so i'm right
They take it on faith, well that's just a forgery
MegaLibertyPrime 1 year ago
@CertainUncertainty the man was intellectually dead before the debate began. he reminds me of tik tok from the film return to oz when his thought coil unwound. he exemplifies my idea of why religion persists and is so difficult to argue against. its not that it has very plausible and logical truths, its just that it exploits human deficiencies.
mistereveready 1 year ago
@CertainUncertainty And this man teaches a logic course... where?
wilyMD 1 year ago
Wilson got pwned.
Joe41272 2 years ago 46
@Joe41272
For how much?
RPM11111 1 year ago
I chuckle at Douglas stating that the pigs were owned by Israelites and Israelites were asking Jesus to leave lol.
The pigs would have been owned by gentiles. They would have wanted Jesus to leave because he killed all their damned pigs (pun intended). He was killing their economy.
facing42 2 years ago
bs BS
culturacolombia 2 years ago
wilson's argument is so circular it's ridiculous
MelloMushroom91 2 years ago
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"How can you manage to say that miracles are only true when they're Calvinist?"
I hate to use internet mainstream useless phrases but: Owned!
That was a deadly blow right there and I don't see how Wilson didn't sense the set-up.
R3APER24 2 years ago
I think the youngsters call this 'uber pwnage'
deekomendez 2 years ago
It's me, again. I need to make a correction. The last name I meant to write was Dr. John Henrik Clark. Sorry 'bout that. Peace y'all.
josephortizgarcia 2 years ago
As I'm a black man, I will address my group. Please check out the works of Dr. Ray Hagin; Dr. Diop; and Rev. Ray Hagin. Then decide.
josephortizgarcia 2 years ago
Is it just me or did Hitchens just feed Wilson a nice serving of rope on which the latter then hanged his own arguments?
By the way, I do agree with Wilson on this point: if the resurrection didn't happen then they're wrong, and to be pitied.
queenastilon 2 years ago
That isn't Wilson's statement. He was quoting the Apostle Paul's first letter to the Corinthians.
"And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men."
jonathanpaulmayer 2 years ago