I wouldn't like to live in a world in which random people wear pepper sprays or tazers around. As if people weren't already scared and paranoid enough, I would also have to be extra careful not to startle any woman I didn't know very well and whom I was trying to hit on (or just trying to have a nice chat with), should she spray me or electrify me because of her paranoid delusions and/or social incompetence. Just saying.
The guy should not have creep-Oed in an elevator and she should not even really have mentioned it because we have no way of verifying whether or nor the interaction actually happened.
Overall, the event was a teeny tiny, inconsequential, minuscule thing. Yet other people are TOTALLY blowing it ALL out of proportion. Have you seen some of the comments on her video? Holy shit. I hope that's just a bunch of b/tards and not the real face of the atheist community. >.>;
@Bobbiethejean unfortunately it IS the real face of the atheist community. Look at the most popular videos responding to watson. Each and every one of them lies about what she said, what she meant, and her positions.
@onlyAerik That is fucking depressing. It really is. It is depressing because it shows me that a significant chunk of the atheist community (at least here on Youtube) is not thinking, not being rational, not being skeptical, and acting like a bunch of retarded religious zealots. XC So, so depressing.
every single youtube atheist I've seen on this subject either hasn't listened to the original video by Watson, nor has listened to more details on the july 5 episode of Skeptics Guide to the Universe.
She spent days talking about sexism at conferences and in forums and blogs. Then guy is physically with her in a group at the bar before she says good night. THEN he stalks her to the elevator to hit on her.
He deliberately ignores an outloud "no". That is arrogant, and creepy.
She never compares the guy to a rapist. Her critics did. and they stated false myths about rape and assault. So Watson &others spend time debunking those myths. But that does not mean anyone thinks the guy was really an almost rapist. It's a strawman, whether it's rith, theamazingatheist, fruitikay, or whoever. It's bullshit.
And you: you implied in this video that, were it rape, is victim's responsibility to prevent it and you also hound victims for being hurt. get bent.
@onlyAerik why do people even believe this happened at all when all we have is an verbal account from watson? bit hypocritical there me thinks....
Also,
1. He in the account he just happened to get on the elevator with her how is that stalking?
2. he asks he to join him for coffee, she said no and THAT WAS IT.
3. i don't remember her saying he was in the group she was with at the bar, in fact i remember her saying somewhere she hadn't seen him before at all. so maybe he didn't hear her.
1. It's stalking because he had to follow her, right away, in order to get in the same elevator at the same time.
2. Even if the elevator timing was a coincidence, hitting on her after she said good night is ignoring a 'no' for ANY further solicitation. Goodnight means "leave me alone please," in all languages.
3. She talks about him being in the group at the bar in the july 5 episode of Skeptics guide to the Universe, which I already stated! Go listen to it.
3. (this also answers 2) Sure she gave more info.... after people gave comments similar to mine so it just sounded like she is trying to cover her own arse by saying he was in the group (when in her first video she doesn't mention once that he was there in the drinking group) so i call bullshit on that, i take her word about what happened about as well as i take a Theist's word that god exists.
If all you have to say is "she must be lying" you have nothing to contribute to this conversation. That is a counter-accusation, not a null hypothesis, and you must back it up with evidence.
@onlyAerik I never said that she "Must" be lying, just that she could be lying, for instance nobody really has any "proof" that god doesn't exist (Just fyi i myself am an Atheist) so when an atheist says that god doesn't exist should they be the one who has to back that position with evidence? No, the evidence lays with the person claiming that there is a god. So i don't need to back up saying that she COULD be lying with "Evidence" when i base what i'm saying on her having none that it did.
I'll also address the macro point then: Not all women can become entirely empowered to fight off assault at every moment. In fact, living in a way to be capable of it is a vast reduction of standard of living. It would be better if we created a community more capable and able to provide protection to those who cannot provide it themselves. male or female. I'm happy that you're privileged enough to not worry about assault, but not everyone else can be you.
@BionicDance Really? Honestly? This is your response? Effectively you're saying "suck it up bitches". How would you feel if "Elevator Guy" was a dog? You made a video telling people to control their damn dogs. Why can't another women tell guys to control their damn selves?
Did you watch her original comments that triggered this? It wasn't about fear, it was about knowing what's appropriate.
"This is easy" is usually a good sign that "I'm about to get this wrong."
@thisplaceisstupid Don't care; I was addressing the macro point, not the specific one. Everyone and their hamster was going on about the potential for attack, and THAT'S what I was addressing.
Besides, this guy was clearly NOT "out of control". Not in any way. A bit awkward, maybe, but that's not crime.
If BOTH sexes cannot take the time to learn how they EACH communicate--instead of one side insisting the other do all the work, changing AND translating--that's BEYOND unfair, don'cha think?
@BionicDance But she was communicating. She said "I just announced to a crowd I was tired and going to bed, I'd just talked all day about how many misogynists, and then this guy followed me into the elevator and asked me to come to his room for coffee". He'd unwittingly demonstrated his lack of respect for her wishes, even though it was a naive act on his part, it was still creepy. She was making it known it was bad form, At no point did she suggest criminalizing it.
@thisplaceisstupid Again, don't care. If she saw it as creepy, that doesn't make it so, nor does it make his intentions untoward. But SHE acts as if the world--or at least this guy--must bow to her expectations, to HER worldview...and I don't think that's right.
@BionicDance Kiddo? Ironic. Putting your patronizing attitude aside: You're missing my point. You're a hypocrite because you tell other people to control their dogs, but you say women shouldn't tell men to control themselves, they should just learn to get over it instead. Would you say the appropriate response to your fear of dogs is to learn how to defend yourself from them and shut up about it?
@BionicDance Wait. Are you saying "fight or roll over" are the only options? Because I agree with speaking out about people control their dogs and I agree with skepchick speaking out about men knowing what's creepy. I see them as similar free speech issues, and I find your stance on the rape-potential-speaking-out to be at odds with your stance on the dog-attack-speaking-out. Not every dog will attack you, nor will every man rape you, but every person can speak out about either.
@thisplaceisstupid If I'm not allowed to kick a dog's ass, and nobody is going to be considerate enough to control their dog, just what would you suggest? I've TRIED getting over it; I've managed to make friends with one or two dogs over the course of my life, but it wasn't easy, and it didn't last, didn't transfer to ALL dogs.
So just what would you suggest, hmm? *raised eyebrow*
@BionicDance Here's the issue: You're addressing only the concern for attack, which is NOT what elevatorgate was originally about (if it got sidetracked by the masses... so be it) But your statement about learning to defend yourself (while I agree people aught to, though many CAN'T) tacitly implies that it's the end of the discussion, which is what I severely disagree with. To say "Just learn to defend yourself" says "Your statements are meaningless" to the women who speak up.
@thisplaceisstupid I have said REPEATEDLY in this comment section and others that I don't CARE what Elevatorgate was originally about; I'm addressing the larger macro point.
And what I'm saying is that women who insist on their victimhood instead of doing something about it--namely, learning to defend themselves--are big ol' whiners who need to get over it. Yes, they really are. It'd be great if men behaved as women wished, but they DON'T, and no amount of wishing will change that...so cope.
I just subscribed because I found some of your videos interesting. But what do you mean by "It'd be great if men behaved as women wished". Are men in general misbehaving?
@TheLastDorrito Not exactly, no. Let's just say that the sexes don't really see eye-to-eye, and it'd be nice if they did.
Men behave in ways women often find perplexing or annoying...and vice-versa; this is no one-way street. All I'm saying is that it'd be lovely if we were all a bit more simpatico.
...though, obviously, if only ONE sex were allowed to change to suit the other, I'd pick men changing so we chicks can have OUR way. ;)
Seriously, all the guy did was ask her out. All she needed to say was "no". It's not like the guy pulled his dick out and started jacking it in front of her or something.
if she didn't want to go, which she clearly didn't, all she needed to do was say no. The end. Failing to see controversy in a guy asking a woman for coffee, which for all we know, could very well have just been coffee, or conversation, or sex, or whatever. All he did was ASK. Not a sin.
Martial arts is usually pretty useless in real world threat situations. And of course in this situation, there wasn't even necessarily a real threat. It was probably meant to be innocent but the guy was just oblivious that his actions were perceived as creepy.
What was supposed to be the lesson of elevatorgate, that men should never ask women out in a creepy place or in a creepy manner? Neither of which would be considered sexual harassment
@FAKEBC ...or in a manner PERCEIVED as creepy, whether it truly is or not; I suppose anyone asking someone out on a date should give them a survey form first, asking them to detail every possible behavior they might find untoward.
I think women should be taught from a young age to be aware of their surroundings, risk assessment & self defense. Men should be taught about the woman's perspective, boundaries & respect. I'm tough, I have a berserker mode. I do little things like have keys ready & look thru all my car windows before getting in. When I'm going around my car/a corner/dark alley I give it a wide birth & take caution. I don't drink til I'm senseless/leave my drink unattended, etc. I'm proactive w/my own safety.
There's an even easier answer to elevatorgate than packing or being weaponry, both of which can horrifically backfire. What was she doing alone on an elevator with a strange guy in the wee hours of the morning anyway? She should have gotten out as he was getting on, or not gotten in if he was already in it. Problem solved. Did her mommy not teach her anything? Next she'll be whining that her dumb ass got roofied because she didn't watch her drink!
Define the threat in this situation. RW feeling concern does not automatically mean that he made any sort of move that would inherently suggest he intended violence. If she felt uncomfortable or the need to be cautious, that is understandable, but this feeling was predicated on prudence and caution, and not necessarily anything EG did.
i like your take on it. as a sickly, stickbug femmy flirt i keep a staplegun in my purse. i dont even have to use on them...staple yourself once and most men back the fuck up and run the other way:) if tough doesn't work, batshit crazy will.
@screaminmeani When I was much more of a depression-monkey a few years ago, I cultivated this psycho-chick-looking-at-you-from-under-her-lowered-and-scowling-brow look that made people give me a metric fuck-ton of room on the sidewalk.
THANK YOU! I've been saying this for years myself.
The whole thing that ticks me off about this is that somehow, EG is being held entirely responsible for what was Skepchick's feelings, especially considering that his primary crime seems to have simply been asking a question and (presumably) respecting her decline. Can I understand how she felt? Yes. Does that make EG guilty of anything but socially awkwardness? No.
I agree totally. Women don't deserve harm and shouldn't be approached in a threatening manner (though I don't think that's exactly what happened, not sure, wasn't there), but the world doesn't care about our expectations and should be's. They don't hold blame for the intent and act itself, but we should learn to fight back instead of saying "It's never our fault when it's THEM who are wrong anyway" because if a person truly wants to hurt you, they don't care what's seen as proper! Help yourself!
I really like this. You smacked that drama ball right outta the park. Don't wait for society to empower you when you can do it yourself. I'm an internet nobody and I approve this message!
@r3v3ng3ofthef4113n She was obviously creeped out and felt unsafe; martial arts lessons would ensure her safety and give her confidence. That's a valid solution to HER problem...and if you're right, she'd never have to use those skills, but at least she's taking some responsibility.
Have you actually watched her video? All she said was 'guys... don't do that'. I just... I'm sorry Bionic but this video was horrid. Not only did you entirely miss the point of what she said but you're suggesting that if a woman is attacked its her own fault for not having taken martial arts classes and carrying a weapon of some kind.
As an entirely broke person who barely has enough money to keep food on the table, I sure as shit can't afford these methods you suggested.
@Otokogoroshi i think what bionic dance meant is that you wouldn't feel intimidated in an elevator if you were capable of defending yourself. that guy obviously wasn't out to rape skeptchick, but she felt intimidated by him. she wouldn't have felt intimidated if she didn't ALLOW herself to be helpless. she is too lazy to carry a tazer, that is not the guy's fault. what if he was a rapist? it wouldn't be her fault if she got raped, but it would be her fault she was defenseless to stop it.
@greycloud24 An elevator isn't a nice place to proposition someone for... anything... unless you know them or have some form of prior contact. ALL she was saying was 'don't do that'.
Go actually watch her video. You'll actually have to watch the whole thing since it doesn't crop up till the end and is only briefly mentioned.
@Otokogoroshi i did watch her video. she isn't vile about it, but i still disagree. what's next? not in small rooms? not in crowded trains? although she was offering advise it is bullshit. her tone and timing imply that the guy did something wrong instead of just having bad timing. guys are guys, its not cool to try and tell them what to do. i have some advise for her, she shouldn't get on co-ed elevators while having a vagina. i can't stand the sexism of feminists.
@Otokogoroshi its not illegal to take martial arts classes. its not illegal to purchase a tazer in the country she is visiting. its not illegal to bring a friend with her. what bionic dance is getting at is that if you feel insecure about things than there are things YOU can do about it. trying to take away the rights and liberties of other people is not how you should go about feeling more secure about common everyday socially acceptable, nonviolent events.
@Otokogoroshi I wasn't so much responding to her as to the resulting scandal.
But the point of this video is about taking responsibility. Responsibility for your own actions, for your own safety, for your reactions to other people... She can be totally free to tell guys what she doesn't like, but if she insists on interpreting entirely benign behaviors as anything else, and insisting the world conform to HER preferences, she's NOT taking ANY responsibility, she's foisting it all on others.
@BionicDance I strongly suspect you didn't actually watch the video in question. I suggest going and actually watching it and paying attention to what is only said in the video. Not the inane rambling form both sides (OMFG men aren't allowed to ask out women! and OMFG All men are rapists!). Just what she says. Nothing else.
The rest of the debacle is bloody retarded and both sides are flying their stupid colors proudly.
@Otokogoroshi No, I've seen it...I frankly don't CARE about the specifics. I'm MUCH more interested in the larger macro point(s) being made; confining oneself SOLELY to the content of her video would not accomplish anything worthwhile.
Cuz the fact is, she's not alone in what I see as an unwillingness to take personal responsibility; MANY seem to think that the world should conform to THEIR expectations, that no burden falls on their shoulders AT ALL. Intended or not, she's managed to say that.
@BionicDance I really don't like the suggestion you're making that if a woman is attacked its her own fault for X, Y, Z. Not having trained in martial arts, not having a tazer, not having mace. Yes, it is a good idea to be prepared and not do stupid things. But the fact of the matter is that if someone is going to do you harm, no matter how prepared you are, its impossible to completely protect yourself.
There is nothing wrong with feeling intimidated by a man. She didn't treat him poorly.
@Otokogoroshi "If a woman is attacked, it's her fault," is bullshit; the attacker is responsible for launching the attack, OF COURSE.
...but if a woman cannot DEFEND HERSELF, that's on her; it's YOUR responsibility--EVERYBODY'S responsibility--to be prepared. Just in case. Cuz this world is imperfect and shit happens. And THAT was the point of my video.
But she thinks it's the guy's responsibility to conform to her SOCIAL expectations, not hers to correctly interpret him. One-way street. See?
@BionicDance I asked my father a 60 year old man if approaching a woman you've never met in an elevator and asking her out if it was a good idea. He said 'no that's terrible'.
I'm really sad that you made the statement that 'if a woman can not defend herself that's on her'. I get that you agree the attacker is in the wrong but... why... why would you say that its 'on her' for being unable to defend herself? This... this honestly disappoints and saddens me. I'm sorry but I can't support you.
@Otokogoroshi So who SHOULD defend her, hmm? *raised eyebrow* If the worst should happen and she gets attacked, and she finds that she has no idea what to do ABOUT the attack, she's TOTALLY unprepared...exactly whose fault IS that?
I said it to someone else, now I'll say it to you: I never WANTED to have to use mouth-to-mouth to save a life, but I am FUCKING GLAD I knew HOW when the situation came up. And if someone attacks me, I'm GLAD I know some martial arts to at least TRY to deal with it.
@BionicDance My neighbor was raped in her house, while her two children slept in the room next door. Is it 'on her' for not having been able to defend herself? My grandmother was raped in the 1950's, before the invention of the tazer and mace and before Martial Arts were at all common. Is it 'on her' because she didn't carry a gun? Where is the line drawn between 'on her' and she's 100% a victim not at fault?
@Otokogoroshi You're actually LOOKING for a way to make someone 100% not at fault? You actually WANT people to be classified as victims? *raised eyebrow* SERIOUSLY?
This is PRECISELY the attitude I'm fighting against, kiddo. Take some responsibility for yourself!
@BionicDance Things happen out of out control, no matter how hard we try we can't control every situation. Telling people who have suffered from horrible attacks that they need to 'take responsibility for themselves' is the worst way of trying to deal with a situation. I do not at all regret unsubbing and I'll no longer be replying now.
@Otokogoroshi Oh, puh-lease...if a situation is beyond your control, that's one thing; if a situation is something you COULD have controlled, only you weren't prepared to prevent it, that's quite another.
But, fine, you can unsub if you like...but in the end, all you're really doing is denying reality, kiddo. Think about it.
@MrNthDegree Ha ha so the reason you don't assault people is because it's ILLEGAL? That's a worry. I could care less about the law - I don't do it because it's unethical.
Why not? Because she said she doesn't like being hit on? You assume she's lying? It's not like she's crucifying him - she's just using this as an example of something she doesn't like. Why isn't she allowed to do that?
@danielcomments Same could be said for me walking down the street with a knife in hand. It's not my fault other people stab people! See how that doesn't really make me any less stupid for carrying a knife around in public?
If he had no sexual intentions, he probably should have asked to pick her brains at the bar - not in his room. Also it's a bit presumptuous to monopolize her time at 4AM!! After a full day at a conference too.
It was about telling the "good guys" how to avoid being accidentially classed as one of the "bad guys" because they behave creepy.
It is about empathy and respect, not about being able to inflict more pain on your opponent that him on you.
Do you think it would make the world that much of a better place if instead of thinking "fuck, I hope he doesn't hurt me" you'd be thinking "fuck, I hope I don't have to hurt him?
@giliellthesecond But wait...if I guy isn't ACTUALLY being bad, then isn't is ALSO a misinterpretation on the part of the girl? Why is all the responsibility and work on HIS side? Why doesn't SHE have any responsibility to understand HIM? *raised eyebrow* Doesn't that seem just a BIT one-sided?
And this video isn't ABOUT making the world a better place...it's about ensuring your personal safety/comfort, and taking responsibility for yourself instead of expecting everyone ELSE to do it for you.
@BionicDance Well, she can't read minds. A friendly reminder "please, this is rather creepy" isn't the end of the world.
If she'd gone to his room and had an unpleasant experience, people would ask her if she was stupid to go there in the first place. Yet when confronted with the situation she has y to understand what he is thinking? How do martial arts help against a rape drug or a gun? It gives false security and places the responsibility on the woman not to get raped.
@giliellthesecond Neither one of them can read minds, not just her. But she expects HIM to not only KNOW her preferences, but also to cater to them...and she doesn't have to do a DAMN thing. It's entirely a one-way street...and I don't see why anybody should be okay with that.
And if martial arts don't help against a gun or against drugs...so what? It'll still be useful against a physical attack, and there'z no reason not to be prepared for at least that.
hahaha without even thinking i voted you down just so you DOOO become more powerful!! just kidding i couldn't do it, i voted you up, but i would have voted you down if you WOULD actually become more powerul
i found it also helps to know how to use your head aka not be psyched out and learn how to say no really loud...ive been there done that...and those kind of agressive guys hate it when the girl is the intimidating think fast one.
I'm sorry, but unless the guy cornered her and demanded she meet him for dinner, any time of day in an elevator should never cause a woman to automatically assume the lone man standing next to her is going to attack her. I don't know the whole story, but personally I think she over-reacted. My guess is they struck up a conversation, the guy nervously said "Hey, you uh.. wanna .. maybe go out sometime?" and she took that as "Hey, I'm gonna knock you out and throw you in my van later. You game?"
So all it takes to scare a woman is to ask her if she wants coffee? Really? As a male I'm wondering why you're belittling women like that. He's asking you to coffee! Quick! Pull out your Desert Eagle before he compliments your eyes! Really? Is that where women are now?
Long ago, when I had legs that went ALL the way up, I worked as a cocktail waitress. I got followed out one night by 2 guys in a truck. I flew down the road (where's a cop when you need one?), whipped into the local police station parking lot, and leaned on the horn. The truck U-turned and left. No one came out of the station. I did not know that no one was there at night. Next day, I was in Karate class. I could still be attacked, but it wasn't just me that was going to get hurt.
given I don't know the whole story of this...but part of me sees a blink of the "blaming the victim", but on the other hand all the chick had to do is hit the "stop button" in the elevetor and say "oops here's my stop, see-ya"...I need to look into this
@RavenBlaze Really, there WAS no victim. There was someone who FELT like a victim,,,when nothing at all was being done to her in the least. There was someone who felt threatened when there was no threat.
My advice is that if you feel like you COULD be a victim...do something about it. Learn to protect yourself. It's that simple.
@BionicDance oh the v-word gets thrown around way to much! and after seeing your other video (plus an extra minute to proccess it) it reminded me of being at the bar the other night, some dudes give me a negative vibe, so simple enough I go to another part of the bar or leave. No harm done, no one is a victim it's just taking care of one's self.
This is why I stopped asking women out. Men can't do anything right now days in women's eyes. Women you've made things so ridiculous that we can't even ask you out for coffee without feeling like a rapist or something. Now a guy has to second guess every move he makes, and you'll be lucky to ever find love. Logic fail on your part.
I'd like an addendum to your list of suggestions, BD: It's called a gun.
Be that as it may, man or woman doesn't matter: You make the choice of whether or not you want to go through life as a victim. If a woman is intimidated by a man on an elevator, how is it the man's problem?
Here's an idear: I get on. See intimidating person get on behind me. I step right back off. Gee, that was easy.
Some of you people need to put your big girl panties on and deal with it.
@MrNthDegree So you think I should scream obscenities at women in the street, and walk around with a bloody knife in my hand?
Living in a social society requires you to understand other people and how you come across to them. If you don't like this go live in a cave somewhere.
The question was asked after she asserted that she didn't like being hit on. Her answer was no - she then publicly pointed out that this is something she doesn't like. PZ Myers agreed, then everyone went nuts
@danielcomments Err, Coffee at 4am means sex - anyone who doesn't instantly recognise that isn't very steeped in western culture. Just FYI - she'd told everyone at the conference multiple times that she didn't like being hit on. So what's this guy do? Waits till she's alone, corners her in a small locked room, then propositions her. Doesn't matter if she was intimidated, it's just not on.
How are you supposed to use martial arts in a cramped elevator?
All Rebecca did was ask guys to not be assholes. She wasn't trying to force anything on anyone. She just explained why propositioning a woman alone in an elevator at 4 AM was creepy, and asked that men refrain from that. As a man, I found her later post on the controversy illuminating.
Martial Arts? Are you kidding me? Let's put you in a room with a 100kg (220lb) kickboxer and see how safe that yellow belt makes you feel. Recent studies indicate that a woman's muscle is no weaker than a man's, but women are on average lighter, smaller, and with higher bodyfat percentages. The average women is just not going to be able to defend themselves from the average man - and our culture should be geared so they shouldn't have to.
Be prepared? Take your life into your own hands? BionicDance, as a rape survivor, let me tell you that those suggestions are fucking hollow.
All Rebecca was saying was propositioning a lone woman in an elevator late at night is intimidating and that men should consider not doing it. If they want to proposition a woman AND be considerate, they can do it in a less intimidating environment. It was a simple request/advice.
@WavegirlThinks I think it's important to keep in mind that she had told the people at this conference - the guy in question included - that she didn't like being hit on. So it wasn't an out of the blue approach, it was in direct defiance of her known preference. To me that turns it from an innocent mistake to downright irresponsible. I'm glad she took him to task for it.
@WavegirlThinks So? Shit happens and life ain't perfect; stuff like this could still happen even if MOST guys realized how being propositioned in an elevator might feel.
So you STILL have the responsibility to be prepared to defend yourself, should the need arise.
In a similar vein, I never WANTED to save someone's life with mouth-to-mouth, but I'm DAMN glad I knew HOW to do it when the situation came up a few years ago. I saved a life by being prepared; you can save your own the same way.
@BionicDance You're right, people should always be prepared, but that really wasn't the point of 'ElevatorGate.' Watson was just saying if guys don't want to come across as creepy, they might not want to proposition a woman in an elevator at 4 am. She didn't even sound like she was all that intimidated by 'Elevator Guy,' just annoyed that he would be so clueless. The real scandal was Dawkins being an ass about it.
@GottaStopKillin But the basic message I'm hearing is, "Boys...don't be yourselves. Deny your inner natures and be what women WANT you to be."
Now, I have no stake in how boys behave, personally...not really. But it seems to me that there is no two-way street, here. There is no, "That's just how boys are," to go with the, "Oh! Women don't like that!" There'z no COMPROMISE. It's all, "My way or the highway," from one side.
I couldn't support that in ANY victimless conflict, frankly.
"stuff like this could still happen even if MOST guys realized how being propositioned in an elevator might feel"
Sure. But if we make sure to let as many men know as possible, it might just happen LESS.
"So you STILL have the responsibility to be prepared to defend yourself, should the need arise."
Yeah, and oftimes you arent as prepared as you think you are. Oh, and by the way: tazers and pepper spray are illegal in Ireland, where this whole thing happened.
@WavegirlThinks I'm sorry to hear about your experience, but this man probably did not think about the elevator as being an intimidating place. I doubt if it occurred to him at all that he might be perceived as being threatening if that was not his intention - which it did not seem to be. He was interested in the woman, he took an opportunity to express that interest, and he accepted that she did not have the same interest in him. That was that.
"I doubt if it occurred to him at all that he might be perceived as being threatening"
Thats exactly the problem Rebecca was pointing out in the first place. The whole point is that if we want to get a more even gender ratio in the skeptical/atheist movement, then more men need to start considering things from a woman's point of view. And to stop ignoring what we say; i.e. what Rebecca was saying all day and just before getting in the elevator.
@WavegirlThinks sence i dont know much about the hole situation i wont make to big of a comment but men are also intimidated by woman maybe it was his way to feel safe and to not be rejected in front of other people.
Yeah Ive heard this a few times.... Ahhh so the only thing is this guy struck up a conversation and asked her out.... Thats it??? Thats the total intimidation... He didnt leer or get into her personal space? NO threat was implied? This was wrong because it was a little room? If he waited till they were in the hall this would be OK? or in the lobby? Ms Priss just say no thank you.....And move on with life? I mean if the guy didnt take no for an answer and cornered her OK make an issue...Please.
@seeker6789 No, this was wrong because she'd announced publicly at that conference that she didn't like being hit on. According to what I've read it's safe to assume this guy knew this, and still approached her - in a confined space no less. She did just say no, then showed this as the kind of behaviour she doesn't find acceptable.
If he didn't know any better I'd agree with you, but given the context he should have known better.
Dont see how criticising a tactless sleaze trying to solicitate a stranger for casual sex is anything like 'running on automatic'. Quite the contrary, it's perfectly understandable. If someone is looking for a meaningless fling they should go to a club, where people go specifically to get drunk and go home with strangers, not an event where a woman is giving a talk on feminism and respecting women.
This is sort of what I thought. I've seen some women say guys should never approach or talk to them anywhere other then places with large public crowds because the male 'might' be a rapist, and I kinda thought that was a little extreme. Does this mean males should only talk to males in such places because we don't want to get mugged? How creepy is it to follow someone you're interested in to a public space just to ask them out for coffee?
@mordinvan Context is everything. She'd announced a few times at this conference that she didn't like being hit on - something the man in question almost certainly heard. This guy then followed her from a public space to an elevator before inviting her back to his room for 'coffee' (at 2am coffee means sex). He had ample opportunity to approach her in a more public space, but shouldn't have even done that given she'd specifically stated that she didn't want people to hit on her.
I see, so a female can say 'no one ask me out' and presume the entire world heard it, and then become offended when someone who may not of heard it does. Also who cares if he meant sex or not? People are inclined to seek consenting adults of fornicate with, its how we behave. If he persisted, or harassed her after her refusal, that would be a problem, but I've not heard that they did, and infact heard he did not. I really don't see the issue.
@mordinvan She umm, did say it in her talk to the conference. She didn't just mention it to her friends and hope everyone knew Then her only response to this was to decline, then use this as an example to everyone of the sort of behaviour she doesn't like. I dunno why everyone is getting on her case.
I have seen arguments from people who support her which contain condemnation of anyone who talks to a girl in virtually any situation where she's not surrounded by a swat team with weapons drawn. I've heard people condemn guy for not being psychic and known a girl doesn't want to talk to them before she's even been made aware he exists One going so far as to refer to all men as schrodinger's rapists, which I find more then a little offensive.
"My thoughts on elevatorgate is that they are no longer really necessary."
Oh, I like to lean on them when I ask women out. Luckily the most they do is bend down, pat me on my head and say : "Well isn't that cute. BUT IT'S WRONG!"
Seems to me the drama is not being created by Watson, but by pretty much everybody else. To borrow Plait's phrase, the guy was just being a dick, and he had to know that confronting/asking Watson, alone in an elevator at 3:00AM to come up to his room for some "coffee" would be an intimidating dickish thing to do. Did he really think his move would have been anymore successful, than to just say he appreciated her presentation, and hoped to see her tomorrow?
you people oppinions on coffey is totally fked up! RW dossent fight for equal rights, its more and more special women rights, its like all those fking adds you see " you dont hit girls/women.. real men dont rape women... I could go on and on but im waiting for the next feminits to tazer mee next time i go out at night to get some vodka junkfood or coke, oh the bless of "preemtive strikers"
FUCKING THANK YOU BIONIC DANCE I was never a much of a fan but ill be subscribing to you now thank you very much. I tried to make this point on Rebecca Watsons fb page and got banned for being a "misogynistic douche bag" really? Fuck her that shit is silly I dont like the term but thats pretty feminazi of her.
@hopked Women are just smaller than men. The average women doesn't have a chance against the average man. Especially given that a lot of men who assault other people have martial arts training. Pit me (brown belt in Karate - average height, below average lean weight) against an average women with a taser in her purse and I'd still be betting on me.
@hopked I'd give you even odds. Give me an extra 20kg of muscle (I know plenty of guys who have this) and my money would firmly be back on me again. My point is just that training is all well and good, but from all my training which included real fight analysis from security cameras and training with bouncers, you're unlikely to be attacked unless the odds are firmly in their favour. Your best bet is to learn to detect a situation early, then run - FAST. Something most MA don't teach.
@shraka our female blue belts can tap out a 370 lbs male over and over again. My money would be on the female. Also alive enviroments encorauge healthy mentalitys and as such someone like a rapist wouldnt do well in a bjj gym and deducing this would lead bjj to being the best posible martial art for females to practice for thier own protection
@shraka BJJ was developed for no rules look into the history a bit please Im tired of that silly argument agasint it and thats all it is. Karate has more rules then bjj and the only rules in a bjj gym are there to maximize safety while training. The gracies developed it as a no rules martail art and it is still the most functional. Someone on drugs can ressit kicks punchs or even a taser or mace but no one can ressit blood lose to the brain. I suggest you do some reading before commenting on it.
@hopked I'm guessing you haven't had any real world experience with fighting. My argument isn't against BJJ, it's against martial arts. The best self defence technique is to learn to identify situations early, and get REALLY good at a 200m dash. That and carry $100 in $5 notes that you can throw at someone before you run. Once you've got all that down, then perhaps learn how to escape a hold, and throw a punch - but only to disorient and/or evade your attacker. In real life a fight is often 2+v1
@shraka I cant really divoulge how wrong you are in real life no most of the time they arent. As far as the main point its about doing something like that to build confidence so not only have you completely missed the point but your also wrong.
@hopked Ha ha, can't divulge? Right right, hero. Have fun teaching people the wrong way to defend themselves. Hope you don't get anyone seriously injured.
@shraka .....Who told you I was teaching anyone not to mention your always risking getting hurt in any fight. Main point dont fight. Still need to know bjj
@medallish Coffee after midnight means sex. And she'd told this guy (And everyone at the conference who attended any of her lectures) that she didn't like being hit on. She just used this as an example of inappropriate. It's not like she's charging the guy with assault or anything.
This is ignorance of the highest order by a sheltered loudmouth. First, unless you're the only human who is bulletproof (and fireproof and poison-proof...) you can be threatened.
Second, if you try using such weak-sauce kicks, punches and blocks in a real fight, you're going to be hurt or worse.
@thereforeithought ...from other women. It takes a LOT of training to overcome even fairly small differences in weight - and women on average have a lot less muscle mass than men. This is compound by the fact that your opponent will probably have some training themselves.
@shraka What!? Huh!? It is good for women to have self-defense training. Your comment sounds like women have already lost. They HAVEN'T. You must change your attitude.
@thereforeithought Self defense and martial arts are not the same thing. It's good for all people to be aware of their environments, be taught how to talk their way out of a situation, to project themselves as confidant, and to learn how to run. Martial Arts, on the other hand, are far less useful than those four things.
A real life fight is rarely fare - you usually don't get targeted unless the odds are in the attackers favour.
This has been flagged as spam show
You also got the face of Xena ( as in you look like a male <.< )
cr4yv3n 6 days ago
Penn and Teller: Martial Arts is Bullshit.
9886635574 7 months ago
I almost forgot you did martial arts. How's your classes going? You still doing martial arts, BD?
Ripley747 7 months ago
@Ripley747 Not for a while, no; been getting my exercise by rollerblading instead.
BionicDance 7 months ago
Right on girl! I taught martial arts for 35 yrears so totally agree with you ;)
Greyhound1405 7 months ago
People must have voted you down to make you powerful.
shanellypooh 7 months ago
A woman can have equality or she can be treated like a lady. Some of us are nice enough to offer them both. We don't get laid much.
tctheunbeliever 7 months ago
i can believe she can handle herself. lets not gloss over other gals who don't have bionic's confidence though, much as they try!
MrBrittish 7 months ago
I wouldn't like to live in a world in which random people wear pepper sprays or tazers around. As if people weren't already scared and paranoid enough, I would also have to be extra careful not to startle any woman I didn't know very well and whom I was trying to hit on (or just trying to have a nice chat with), should she spray me or electrify me because of her paranoid delusions and/or social incompetence. Just saying.
JennyFarlopez 7 months ago
The guy should not have creep-Oed in an elevator and she should not even really have mentioned it because we have no way of verifying whether or nor the interaction actually happened.
Overall, the event was a teeny tiny, inconsequential, minuscule thing. Yet other people are TOTALLY blowing it ALL out of proportion. Have you seen some of the comments on her video? Holy shit. I hope that's just a bunch of b/tards and not the real face of the atheist community. >.>;
Bobbiethejean 7 months ago
@Bobbiethejean unfortunately it IS the real face of the atheist community. Look at the most popular videos responding to watson. Each and every one of them lies about what she said, what she meant, and her positions.
onlyAerik 7 months ago
@onlyAerik That is fucking depressing. It really is. It is depressing because it shows me that a significant chunk of the atheist community (at least here on Youtube) is not thinking, not being rational, not being skeptical, and acting like a bunch of retarded religious zealots. XC So, so depressing.
Bobbiethejean 7 months ago
@bionicdance
every single youtube atheist I've seen on this subject either hasn't listened to the original video by Watson, nor has listened to more details on the july 5 episode of Skeptics Guide to the Universe.
She spent days talking about sexism at conferences and in forums and blogs. Then guy is physically with her in a group at the bar before she says good night. THEN he stalks her to the elevator to hit on her.
He deliberately ignores an outloud "no". That is arrogant, and creepy.
onlyAerik 7 months ago
@bionicdance
She never compares the guy to a rapist. Her critics did. and they stated false myths about rape and assault. So Watson &others spend time debunking those myths. But that does not mean anyone thinks the guy was really an almost rapist. It's a strawman, whether it's rith, theamazingatheist, fruitikay, or whoever. It's bullshit.
And you: you implied in this video that, were it rape, is victim's responsibility to prevent it and you also hound victims for being hurt. get bent.
onlyAerik 7 months ago
@onlyAerik why do people even believe this happened at all when all we have is an verbal account from watson? bit hypocritical there me thinks....
Also,
1. He in the account he just happened to get on the elevator with her how is that stalking?
2. he asks he to join him for coffee, she said no and THAT WAS IT.
3. i don't remember her saying he was in the group she was with at the bar, in fact i remember her saying somewhere she hadn't seen him before at all. so maybe he didn't hear her.
LurchibaldBioshock 7 months ago 2
@LurchibaldBioshock
1. It's stalking because he had to follow her, right away, in order to get in the same elevator at the same time.
2. Even if the elevator timing was a coincidence, hitting on her after she said good night is ignoring a 'no' for ANY further solicitation. Goodnight means "leave me alone please," in all languages.
3. She talks about him being in the group at the bar in the july 5 episode of Skeptics guide to the Universe, which I already stated! Go listen to it.
onlyAerik 7 months ago
@onlyAerik
1. Conjecture
3. (this also answers 2) Sure she gave more info.... after people gave comments similar to mine so it just sounded like she is trying to cover her own arse by saying he was in the group (when in her first video she doesn't mention once that he was there in the drinking group) so i call bullshit on that, i take her word about what happened about as well as i take a Theist's word that god exists.
LurchibaldBioshock 7 months ago 2
@LurchibaldBioshock
If all you have to say is "she must be lying" you have nothing to contribute to this conversation. That is a counter-accusation, not a null hypothesis, and you must back it up with evidence.
onlyAerik 7 months ago
@onlyAerik I never said that she "Must" be lying, just that she could be lying, for instance nobody really has any "proof" that god doesn't exist (Just fyi i myself am an Atheist) so when an atheist says that god doesn't exist should they be the one who has to back that position with evidence? No, the evidence lays with the person claiming that there is a god. So i don't need to back up saying that she COULD be lying with "Evidence" when i base what i'm saying on her having none that it did.
LurchibaldBioshock 7 months ago
I did a lot of martial arts, but I got tired of having separated ribs all the time. I'm just not made for combat :)
tnordloh 7 months ago
I'll also address the macro point then: Not all women can become entirely empowered to fight off assault at every moment. In fact, living in a way to be capable of it is a vast reduction of standard of living. It would be better if we created a community more capable and able to provide protection to those who cannot provide it themselves. male or female. I'm happy that you're privileged enough to not worry about assault, but not everyone else can be you.
thisplaceisstupid 7 months ago
@BionicDance Really? Honestly? This is your response? Effectively you're saying "suck it up bitches". How would you feel if "Elevator Guy" was a dog? You made a video telling people to control their damn dogs. Why can't another women tell guys to control their damn selves?
Did you watch her original comments that triggered this? It wasn't about fear, it was about knowing what's appropriate.
"This is easy" is usually a good sign that "I'm about to get this wrong."
thisplaceisstupid 7 months ago
@thisplaceisstupid Don't care; I was addressing the macro point, not the specific one. Everyone and their hamster was going on about the potential for attack, and THAT'S what I was addressing.
Besides, this guy was clearly NOT "out of control". Not in any way. A bit awkward, maybe, but that's not crime.
If BOTH sexes cannot take the time to learn how they EACH communicate--instead of one side insisting the other do all the work, changing AND translating--that's BEYOND unfair, don'cha think?
BionicDance 7 months ago
@BionicDance But she was communicating. She said "I just announced to a crowd I was tired and going to bed, I'd just talked all day about how many misogynists, and then this guy followed me into the elevator and asked me to come to his room for coffee". He'd unwittingly demonstrated his lack of respect for her wishes, even though it was a naive act on his part, it was still creepy. She was making it known it was bad form, At no point did she suggest criminalizing it.
thisplaceisstupid 7 months ago
@thisplaceisstupid Again, don't care. If she saw it as creepy, that doesn't make it so, nor does it make his intentions untoward. But SHE acts as if the world--or at least this guy--must bow to her expectations, to HER worldview...and I don't think that's right.
BionicDance 7 months ago
@BionicDance She said "guys, don't do that" is it any different from "CONTROL YOUR FUCKING DOGS!"? ... oh wait, it is. It's calmer.
thisplaceisstupid 7 months ago
@thisplaceisstupid "Calmer" isn't the issue, kiddo. Who has the responsibility IS.
BionicDance 7 months ago
@BionicDance Kiddo? Ironic. Putting your patronizing attitude aside: You're missing my point. You're a hypocrite because you tell other people to control their dogs, but you say women shouldn't tell men to control themselves, they should just learn to get over it instead. Would you say the appropriate response to your fear of dogs is to learn how to defend yourself from them and shut up about it?
thisplaceisstupid 7 months ago
@thisplaceisstupid People object to me defending myself against their dogs. I know...I've tried.
There'z only one other option, really.
BionicDance 7 months ago
@BionicDance Wait. Are you saying "fight or roll over" are the only options? Because I agree with speaking out about people control their dogs and I agree with skepchick speaking out about men knowing what's creepy. I see them as similar free speech issues, and I find your stance on the rape-potential-speaking-out to be at odds with your stance on the dog-attack-speaking-out. Not every dog will attack you, nor will every man rape you, but every person can speak out about either.
thisplaceisstupid 7 months ago
@thisplaceisstupid If I'm not allowed to kick a dog's ass, and nobody is going to be considerate enough to control their dog, just what would you suggest? I've TRIED getting over it; I've managed to make friends with one or two dogs over the course of my life, but it wasn't easy, and it didn't last, didn't transfer to ALL dogs.
So just what would you suggest, hmm? *raised eyebrow*
BionicDance 7 months ago
@BionicDance Here's the issue: You're addressing only the concern for attack, which is NOT what elevatorgate was originally about (if it got sidetracked by the masses... so be it) But your statement about learning to defend yourself (while I agree people aught to, though many CAN'T) tacitly implies that it's the end of the discussion, which is what I severely disagree with. To say "Just learn to defend yourself" says "Your statements are meaningless" to the women who speak up.
thisplaceisstupid 7 months ago
@thisplaceisstupid I have said REPEATEDLY in this comment section and others that I don't CARE what Elevatorgate was originally about; I'm addressing the larger macro point.
And what I'm saying is that women who insist on their victimhood instead of doing something about it--namely, learning to defend themselves--are big ol' whiners who need to get over it. Yes, they really are. It'd be great if men behaved as women wished, but they DON'T, and no amount of wishing will change that...so cope.
BionicDance 7 months ago
@BionicDance
I just subscribed because I found some of your videos interesting. But what do you mean by "It'd be great if men behaved as women wished". Are men in general misbehaving?
TheLastDorrito 7 months ago
@TheLastDorrito Not exactly, no. Let's just say that the sexes don't really see eye-to-eye, and it'd be nice if they did.
Men behave in ways women often find perplexing or annoying...and vice-versa; this is no one-way street. All I'm saying is that it'd be lovely if we were all a bit more simpatico.
...though, obviously, if only ONE sex were allowed to change to suit the other, I'd pick men changing so we chicks can have OUR way. ;)
BionicDance 7 months ago
@BionicDance You know why men are so predictable? Cuz we do things that make sense.
tctheunbeliever 7 months ago
What's with the sports bra?
soulinite 7 months ago
@MarciMK79 Thus, "No, thank you."
Seriously, all the guy did was ask her out. All she needed to say was "no". It's not like the guy pulled his dick out and started jacking it in front of her or something.
if she didn't want to go, which she clearly didn't, all she needed to do was say no. The end. Failing to see controversy in a guy asking a woman for coffee, which for all we know, could very well have just been coffee, or conversation, or sex, or whatever. All he did was ASK. Not a sin.
TheMaverickMJ 7 months ago
Martial arts is usually pretty useless in real world threat situations. And of course in this situation, there wasn't even necessarily a real threat. It was probably meant to be innocent but the guy was just oblivious that his actions were perceived as creepy.
mjr256 7 months ago
@IDontHoldTheTruth Can't drink coffee; I react funky to caffeine. :P
BionicDance 7 months ago
What was supposed to be the lesson of elevatorgate, that men should never ask women out in a creepy place or in a creepy manner? Neither of which would be considered sexual harassment
FAKEBC 7 months ago
@FAKEBC ...or in a manner PERCEIVED as creepy, whether it truly is or not; I suppose anyone asking someone out on a date should give them a survey form first, asking them to detail every possible behavior they might find untoward.
You know...just as a courtesy. :P
BionicDance 7 months ago
I think women should be taught from a young age to be aware of their surroundings, risk assessment & self defense. Men should be taught about the woman's perspective, boundaries & respect. I'm tough, I have a berserker mode. I do little things like have keys ready & look thru all my car windows before getting in. When I'm going around my car/a corner/dark alley I give it a wide birth & take caution. I don't drink til I'm senseless/leave my drink unattended, etc. I'm proactive w/my own safety.
BrinaAmheuwr 7 months ago
There's an even easier answer to elevatorgate than packing or being weaponry, both of which can horrifically backfire. What was she doing alone on an elevator with a strange guy in the wee hours of the morning anyway? She should have gotten out as he was getting on, or not gotten in if he was already in it. Problem solved. Did her mommy not teach her anything? Next she'll be whining that her dumb ass got roofied because she didn't watch her drink!
ChipArgyle 7 months ago
I love martial arts =^_^=
BlankPicketSign 7 months ago
Yes blaming women for the threats they face from men is what to do.
rersp21107 7 months ago
@rersp21107 First, what makes you think it was a threat?
Second, nobody is blaming her for the act of the guy.
Third, what IS being advocated is having the ability to defend yourself if it turns out that it IS a threat.
So, basically, you've COMPLETELY misunderstood.
BionicDance 7 months ago
@rersp21107
Define the threat in this situation. RW feeling concern does not automatically mean that he made any sort of move that would inherently suggest he intended violence. If she felt uncomfortable or the need to be cautious, that is understandable, but this feeling was predicated on prudence and caution, and not necessarily anything EG did.
VigilanteNighthawk 7 months ago
what would a woman do outside of a kitchen anyways??
(I'm just kidding btw, no hate)
NScott45 7 months ago
I think your outro caused a lot of your dislikes :P
ScottJoC 7 months ago
lol your nuts
Thenicereviewguy 7 months ago
i like your take on it. as a sickly, stickbug femmy flirt i keep a staplegun in my purse. i dont even have to use on them...staple yourself once and most men back the fuck up and run the other way:) if tough doesn't work, batshit crazy will.
screaminmeani 7 months ago
@screaminmeani When I was much more of a depression-monkey a few years ago, I cultivated this psycho-chick-looking-at-you-from-under-her-lowered-and-scowling-brow look that made people give me a metric fuck-ton of room on the sidewalk.
...but I'm feeling MUCH better now! :)
BionicDance 7 months ago 2
like your vids
deIeteThisComment 7 months ago
THANK YOU! I've been saying this for years myself.
The whole thing that ticks me off about this is that somehow, EG is being held entirely responsible for what was Skepchick's feelings, especially considering that his primary crime seems to have simply been asking a question and (presumably) respecting her decline. Can I understand how she felt? Yes. Does that make EG guilty of anything but socially awkwardness? No.
VigilanteNighthawk 7 months ago
not pepper spray, bad in an enclosed space you'll get hit yourself
nekotenma 7 months ago
I agree totally. Women don't deserve harm and shouldn't be approached in a threatening manner (though I don't think that's exactly what happened, not sure, wasn't there), but the world doesn't care about our expectations and should be's. They don't hold blame for the intent and act itself, but we should learn to fight back instead of saying "It's never our fault when it's THEM who are wrong anyway" because if a person truly wants to hurt you, they don't care what's seen as proper! Help yourself!
ImpendingDay 7 months ago
How is it intimidating to ask a woman out for coffee?
I mean, really, "Hi, would you like to go out for coffee?"
"No, thank you."
Problem solved.
TheMaverickMJ 7 months ago
I really like this. You smacked that drama ball right outta the park. Don't wait for society to empower you when you can do it yourself. I'm an internet nobody and I approve this message!
HeavyTrafficAhead 7 months ago
@BionicDance--I found your take on this whole issue very refreshing, so mad props and respect to you!
Metalcultistmike 7 months ago
Intimidated? The guy asked her for coffee. He probably didn't even want sex. A simple no would surffice, not martial arts lessons!
r3v3ng3ofthef4113n 7 months ago
@r3v3ng3ofthef4113n She was obviously creeped out and felt unsafe; martial arts lessons would ensure her safety and give her confidence. That's a valid solution to HER problem...and if you're right, she'd never have to use those skills, but at least she's taking some responsibility.
BionicDance 7 months ago
Have you actually watched her video? All she said was 'guys... don't do that'. I just... I'm sorry Bionic but this video was horrid. Not only did you entirely miss the point of what she said but you're suggesting that if a woman is attacked its her own fault for not having taken martial arts classes and carrying a weapon of some kind.
As an entirely broke person who barely has enough money to keep food on the table, I sure as shit can't afford these methods you suggested.
Otokogoroshi 7 months ago
@Otokogoroshi i think what bionic dance meant is that you wouldn't feel intimidated in an elevator if you were capable of defending yourself. that guy obviously wasn't out to rape skeptchick, but she felt intimidated by him. she wouldn't have felt intimidated if she didn't ALLOW herself to be helpless. she is too lazy to carry a tazer, that is not the guy's fault. what if he was a rapist? it wouldn't be her fault if she got raped, but it would be her fault she was defenseless to stop it.
greycloud24 7 months ago
@greycloud24 An elevator isn't a nice place to proposition someone for... anything... unless you know them or have some form of prior contact. ALL she was saying was 'don't do that'.
Go actually watch her video. You'll actually have to watch the whole thing since it doesn't crop up till the end and is only briefly mentioned.
Otokogoroshi 7 months ago
@Otokogoroshi i did watch her video. she isn't vile about it, but i still disagree. what's next? not in small rooms? not in crowded trains? although she was offering advise it is bullshit. her tone and timing imply that the guy did something wrong instead of just having bad timing. guys are guys, its not cool to try and tell them what to do. i have some advise for her, she shouldn't get on co-ed elevators while having a vagina. i can't stand the sexism of feminists.
greycloud24 7 months ago
@Otokogoroshi that reminds me, i'm going to go vote it down again.
greycloud24 7 months ago
@greycloud24 She was in another country, its illegal to transport weapons on planes.
Otokogoroshi 7 months ago
@Otokogoroshi its not illegal to take martial arts classes. its not illegal to purchase a tazer in the country she is visiting. its not illegal to bring a friend with her. what bionic dance is getting at is that if you feel insecure about things than there are things YOU can do about it. trying to take away the rights and liberties of other people is not how you should go about feeling more secure about common everyday socially acceptable, nonviolent events.
greycloud24 7 months ago
@Otokogoroshi I wasn't so much responding to her as to the resulting scandal.
But the point of this video is about taking responsibility. Responsibility for your own actions, for your own safety, for your reactions to other people... She can be totally free to tell guys what she doesn't like, but if she insists on interpreting entirely benign behaviors as anything else, and insisting the world conform to HER preferences, she's NOT taking ANY responsibility, she's foisting it all on others.
BionicDance 7 months ago
@BionicDance I strongly suspect you didn't actually watch the video in question. I suggest going and actually watching it and paying attention to what is only said in the video. Not the inane rambling form both sides (OMFG men aren't allowed to ask out women! and OMFG All men are rapists!). Just what she says. Nothing else.
The rest of the debacle is bloody retarded and both sides are flying their stupid colors proudly.
Otokogoroshi 7 months ago
@Otokogoroshi No, I've seen it...I frankly don't CARE about the specifics. I'm MUCH more interested in the larger macro point(s) being made; confining oneself SOLELY to the content of her video would not accomplish anything worthwhile.
Cuz the fact is, she's not alone in what I see as an unwillingness to take personal responsibility; MANY seem to think that the world should conform to THEIR expectations, that no burden falls on their shoulders AT ALL. Intended or not, she's managed to say that.
BionicDance 7 months ago
@BionicDance I really don't like the suggestion you're making that if a woman is attacked its her own fault for X, Y, Z. Not having trained in martial arts, not having a tazer, not having mace. Yes, it is a good idea to be prepared and not do stupid things. But the fact of the matter is that if someone is going to do you harm, no matter how prepared you are, its impossible to completely protect yourself.
There is nothing wrong with feeling intimidated by a man. She didn't treat him poorly.
Otokogoroshi 7 months ago
@Otokogoroshi "If a woman is attacked, it's her fault," is bullshit; the attacker is responsible for launching the attack, OF COURSE.
...but if a woman cannot DEFEND HERSELF, that's on her; it's YOUR responsibility--EVERYBODY'S responsibility--to be prepared. Just in case. Cuz this world is imperfect and shit happens. And THAT was the point of my video.
But she thinks it's the guy's responsibility to conform to her SOCIAL expectations, not hers to correctly interpret him. One-way street. See?
BionicDance 7 months ago
@BionicDance I asked my father a 60 year old man if approaching a woman you've never met in an elevator and asking her out if it was a good idea. He said 'no that's terrible'.
I'm really sad that you made the statement that 'if a woman can not defend herself that's on her'. I get that you agree the attacker is in the wrong but... why... why would you say that its 'on her' for being unable to defend herself? This... this honestly disappoints and saddens me. I'm sorry but I can't support you.
Otokogoroshi 7 months ago
@Otokogoroshi So who SHOULD defend her, hmm? *raised eyebrow* If the worst should happen and she gets attacked, and she finds that she has no idea what to do ABOUT the attack, she's TOTALLY unprepared...exactly whose fault IS that?
I said it to someone else, now I'll say it to you: I never WANTED to have to use mouth-to-mouth to save a life, but I am FUCKING GLAD I knew HOW when the situation came up. And if someone attacks me, I'm GLAD I know some martial arts to at least TRY to deal with it.
BionicDance 7 months ago
@BionicDance My neighbor was raped in her house, while her two children slept in the room next door. Is it 'on her' for not having been able to defend herself? My grandmother was raped in the 1950's, before the invention of the tazer and mace and before Martial Arts were at all common. Is it 'on her' because she didn't carry a gun? Where is the line drawn between 'on her' and she's 100% a victim not at fault?
Otokogoroshi 7 months ago
@Otokogoroshi You're actually LOOKING for a way to make someone 100% not at fault? You actually WANT people to be classified as victims? *raised eyebrow* SERIOUSLY?
This is PRECISELY the attitude I'm fighting against, kiddo. Take some responsibility for yourself!
BionicDance 7 months ago
@BionicDance Things happen out of out control, no matter how hard we try we can't control every situation. Telling people who have suffered from horrible attacks that they need to 'take responsibility for themselves' is the worst way of trying to deal with a situation. I do not at all regret unsubbing and I'll no longer be replying now.
Otokogoroshi 7 months ago
@Otokogoroshi Oh, puh-lease...if a situation is beyond your control, that's one thing; if a situation is something you COULD have controlled, only you weren't prepared to prevent it, that's quite another.
But, fine, you can unsub if you like...but in the end, all you're really doing is denying reality, kiddo. Think about it.
BionicDance 7 months ago
On a serious note the human race is fucked! If a man can't ask a girl out without being attacked he'll just not bother!
toppledgod 7 months ago
I just tazered my monitor - shit!
toppledgod 7 months ago
@MrNthDegree Ha ha so the reason you don't assault people is because it's ILLEGAL? That's a worry. I could care less about the law - I don't do it because it's unethical.
Why not? Because she said she doesn't like being hit on? You assume she's lying? It's not like she's crucifying him - she's just using this as an example of something she doesn't like. Why isn't she allowed to do that?
shraka 7 months ago
@danielcomments Same could be said for me walking down the street with a knife in hand. It's not my fault other people stab people! See how that doesn't really make me any less stupid for carrying a knife around in public?
If he had no sexual intentions, he probably should have asked to pick her brains at the bar - not in his room. Also it's a bit presumptuous to monopolize her time at 4AM!! After a full day at a conference too.
shraka 7 months ago
Missed the point:
It was about telling the "good guys" how to avoid being accidentially classed as one of the "bad guys" because they behave creepy.
It is about empathy and respect, not about being able to inflict more pain on your opponent that him on you.
Do you think it would make the world that much of a better place if instead of thinking "fuck, I hope he doesn't hurt me" you'd be thinking "fuck, I hope I don't have to hurt him?
giliellthesecond 7 months ago
@giliellthesecond But wait...if I guy isn't ACTUALLY being bad, then isn't is ALSO a misinterpretation on the part of the girl? Why is all the responsibility and work on HIS side? Why doesn't SHE have any responsibility to understand HIM? *raised eyebrow* Doesn't that seem just a BIT one-sided?
And this video isn't ABOUT making the world a better place...it's about ensuring your personal safety/comfort, and taking responsibility for yourself instead of expecting everyone ELSE to do it for you.
BionicDance 7 months ago
@BionicDance Well, she can't read minds. A friendly reminder "please, this is rather creepy" isn't the end of the world.
If she'd gone to his room and had an unpleasant experience, people would ask her if she was stupid to go there in the first place. Yet when confronted with the situation she has y to understand what he is thinking? How do martial arts help against a rape drug or a gun? It gives false security and places the responsibility on the woman not to get raped.
giliellthesecond 7 months ago
@giliellthesecond Neither one of them can read minds, not just her. But she expects HIM to not only KNOW her preferences, but also to cater to them...and she doesn't have to do a DAMN thing. It's entirely a one-way street...and I don't see why anybody should be okay with that.
And if martial arts don't help against a gun or against drugs...so what? It'll still be useful against a physical attack, and there'z no reason not to be prepared for at least that.
BionicDance 7 months ago
Thank you for this comment. I had a similar response. Unfortunately, a man making the same argument would be dismissed by many feminists.
RakaTheTenacious 7 months ago
hahaha without even thinking i voted you down just so you DOOO become more powerful!! just kidding i couldn't do it, i voted you up, but i would have voted you down if you WOULD actually become more powerul
snickerkiller 7 months ago
Eh that's only half the story though. You're supposed to say if you're taking Richard's side or Skepchick's side.
AtheismTV 7 months ago
@AtheismTV I'm takin' the side of REASON. :P
BionicDance 7 months ago
i found it also helps to know how to use your head aka not be psyched out and learn how to say no really loud...ive been there done that...and those kind of agressive guys hate it when the girl is the intimidating think fast one.
Angelwriterspeaks 7 months ago
I'm sorry, but unless the guy cornered her and demanded she meet him for dinner, any time of day in an elevator should never cause a woman to automatically assume the lone man standing next to her is going to attack her. I don't know the whole story, but personally I think she over-reacted. My guess is they struck up a conversation, the guy nervously said "Hey, you uh.. wanna .. maybe go out sometime?" and she took that as "Hey, I'm gonna knock you out and throw you in my van later. You game?"
madinno 7 months ago
@madinno Yeah, EXACTLY...! This whole thing smacks of playing the victim.
BionicDance 7 months ago
So all it takes to scare a woman is to ask her if she wants coffee? Really? As a male I'm wondering why you're belittling women like that. He's asking you to coffee! Quick! Pull out your Desert Eagle before he compliments your eyes! Really? Is that where women are now?
snobarilkabeer 7 months ago
@snobarilkabeer Watch my next video, the one titled "Critical Listening". I think you'll understand.
BionicDance 7 months ago
Long ago, when I had legs that went ALL the way up, I worked as a cocktail waitress. I got followed out one night by 2 guys in a truck. I flew down the road (where's a cop when you need one?), whipped into the local police station parking lot, and leaned on the horn. The truck U-turned and left. No one came out of the station. I did not know that no one was there at night. Next day, I was in Karate class. I could still be attacked, but it wasn't just me that was going to get hurt.
curlew0609 7 months ago
given I don't know the whole story of this...but part of me sees a blink of the "blaming the victim", but on the other hand all the chick had to do is hit the "stop button" in the elevetor and say "oops here's my stop, see-ya"...I need to look into this
RavenBlaze 7 months ago
@RavenBlaze Really, there WAS no victim. There was someone who FELT like a victim,,,when nothing at all was being done to her in the least. There was someone who felt threatened when there was no threat.
My advice is that if you feel like you COULD be a victim...do something about it. Learn to protect yourself. It's that simple.
BionicDance 7 months ago
@BionicDance oh the v-word gets thrown around way to much! and after seeing your other video (plus an extra minute to proccess it) it reminded me of being at the bar the other night, some dudes give me a negative vibe, so simple enough I go to another part of the bar or leave. No harm done, no one is a victim it's just taking care of one's self.
RavenBlaze 7 months ago
@RavenBlaze Precisely. :)
BionicDance 7 months ago
This is why I stopped asking women out. Men can't do anything right now days in women's eyes. Women you've made things so ridiculous that we can't even ask you out for coffee without feeling like a rapist or something. Now a guy has to second guess every move he makes, and you'll be lucky to ever find love. Logic fail on your part.
TheScottism101 7 months ago
Comment removed
TheScottism101 7 months ago
I'd like an addendum to your list of suggestions, BD: It's called a gun.
Be that as it may, man or woman doesn't matter: You make the choice of whether or not you want to go through life as a victim. If a woman is intimidated by a man on an elevator, how is it the man's problem?
Here's an idear: I get on. See intimidating person get on behind me. I step right back off. Gee, that was easy.
Some of you people need to put your big girl panties on and deal with it.
BlueRonin44 7 months ago
@MrNthDegree So you think I should scream obscenities at women in the street, and walk around with a bloody knife in my hand?
Living in a social society requires you to understand other people and how you come across to them. If you don't like this go live in a cave somewhere.
The question was asked after she asserted that she didn't like being hit on. Her answer was no - she then publicly pointed out that this is something she doesn't like. PZ Myers agreed, then everyone went nuts
shraka 7 months ago
@danielcomments Err, Coffee at 4am means sex - anyone who doesn't instantly recognise that isn't very steeped in western culture. Just FYI - she'd told everyone at the conference multiple times that she didn't like being hit on. So what's this guy do? Waits till she's alone, corners her in a small locked room, then propositions her. Doesn't matter if she was intimidated, it's just not on.
shraka 7 months ago
How are you supposed to use martial arts in a cramped elevator?
All Rebecca did was ask guys to not be assholes. She wasn't trying to force anything on anyone. She just explained why propositioning a woman alone in an elevator at 4 AM was creepy, and asked that men refrain from that. As a man, I found her later post on the controversy illuminating.
TheCrappyPhilosopher 7 months ago
@TheCrappyPhilosopher Crowded elevator...? There are close-quarters technicques; it's called "grappling". We learn some of it at the dojo I go to.
BionicDance 7 months ago
Martial Arts? Are you kidding me? Let's put you in a room with a 100kg (220lb) kickboxer and see how safe that yellow belt makes you feel. Recent studies indicate that a woman's muscle is no weaker than a man's, but women are on average lighter, smaller, and with higher bodyfat percentages. The average women is just not going to be able to defend themselves from the average man - and our culture should be geared so they shouldn't have to.
shraka 7 months ago
Even if a woman knows how to defend herself, I'd imagine that situtation still would've been a little creepy.
lordcheetah 7 months ago 3
Damn straight, K8T...
ThinkingManNeil 7 months ago
Pepper spray in a elevator... you might want to think that through a bit more...
Also guns. Why are women so afraid of guns? So long as you cultivate the right attitude guns are great.
The DOJ has reported that rapes are 10x less successful when the victim has a gun. Statistically guns are the most effective rape deterrent available.
U.S. Department of Justice, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, Rape Victimization in 26 American Cities (1979), p. 31.
noadmiration 7 months ago
Be prepared? Take your life into your own hands? BionicDance, as a rape survivor, let me tell you that those suggestions are fucking hollow.
All Rebecca was saying was propositioning a lone woman in an elevator late at night is intimidating and that men should consider not doing it. If they want to proposition a woman AND be considerate, they can do it in a less intimidating environment. It was a simple request/advice.
WavegirlThinks 7 months ago 7
@WavegirlThinks I think it's important to keep in mind that she had told the people at this conference - the guy in question included - that she didn't like being hit on. So it wasn't an out of the blue approach, it was in direct defiance of her known preference. To me that turns it from an innocent mistake to downright irresponsible. I'm glad she took him to task for it.
shraka 7 months ago
@shraka
Quite so :-)
WavegirlThinks 7 months ago
@WavegirlThinks So? Shit happens and life ain't perfect; stuff like this could still happen even if MOST guys realized how being propositioned in an elevator might feel.
So you STILL have the responsibility to be prepared to defend yourself, should the need arise.
In a similar vein, I never WANTED to save someone's life with mouth-to-mouth, but I'm DAMN glad I knew HOW to do it when the situation came up a few years ago. I saved a life by being prepared; you can save your own the same way.
BionicDance 7 months ago
@BionicDance You're right, people should always be prepared, but that really wasn't the point of 'ElevatorGate.' Watson was just saying if guys don't want to come across as creepy, they might not want to proposition a woman in an elevator at 4 am. She didn't even sound like she was all that intimidated by 'Elevator Guy,' just annoyed that he would be so clueless. The real scandal was Dawkins being an ass about it.
GottaStopKillin 7 months ago
@GottaStopKillin But the basic message I'm hearing is, "Boys...don't be yourselves. Deny your inner natures and be what women WANT you to be."
Now, I have no stake in how boys behave, personally...not really. But it seems to me that there is no two-way street, here. There is no, "That's just how boys are," to go with the, "Oh! Women don't like that!" There'z no COMPROMISE. It's all, "My way or the highway," from one side.
I couldn't support that in ANY victimless conflict, frankly.
BionicDance 7 months ago
@BionicDance
"stuff like this could still happen even if MOST guys realized how being propositioned in an elevator might feel"
Sure. But if we make sure to let as many men know as possible, it might just happen LESS.
"So you STILL have the responsibility to be prepared to defend yourself, should the need arise."
Yeah, and oftimes you arent as prepared as you think you are. Oh, and by the way: tazers and pepper spray are illegal in Ireland, where this whole thing happened.
WavegirlThinks 7 months ago
@WavegirlThinks I'm sorry to hear about your experience, but this man probably did not think about the elevator as being an intimidating place. I doubt if it occurred to him at all that he might be perceived as being threatening if that was not his intention - which it did not seem to be. He was interested in the woman, he took an opportunity to express that interest, and he accepted that she did not have the same interest in him. That was that.
curlew0609 7 months ago
@curlew0609
"I doubt if it occurred to him at all that he might be perceived as being threatening"
Thats exactly the problem Rebecca was pointing out in the first place. The whole point is that if we want to get a more even gender ratio in the skeptical/atheist movement, then more men need to start considering things from a woman's point of view. And to stop ignoring what we say; i.e. what Rebecca was saying all day and just before getting in the elevator.
WavegirlThinks 7 months ago
@WavegirlThinks sence i dont know much about the hole situation i wont make to big of a comment but men are also intimidated by woman maybe it was his way to feel safe and to not be rejected in front of other people.
silentpoet1988 7 months ago
Yeah Ive heard this a few times.... Ahhh so the only thing is this guy struck up a conversation and asked her out.... Thats it??? Thats the total intimidation... He didnt leer or get into her personal space? NO threat was implied? This was wrong because it was a little room? If he waited till they were in the hall this would be OK? or in the lobby? Ms Priss just say no thank you.....And move on with life? I mean if the guy didnt take no for an answer and cornered her OK make an issue...Please.
seeker6789 7 months ago
@seeker6789 No, this was wrong because she'd announced publicly at that conference that she didn't like being hit on. According to what I've read it's safe to assume this guy knew this, and still approached her - in a confined space no less. She did just say no, then showed this as the kind of behaviour she doesn't find acceptable.
If he didn't know any better I'd agree with you, but given the context he should have known better.
shraka 7 months ago
Dont see how criticising a tactless sleaze trying to solicitate a stranger for casual sex is anything like 'running on automatic'. Quite the contrary, it's perfectly understandable. If someone is looking for a meaningless fling they should go to a club, where people go specifically to get drunk and go home with strangers, not an event where a woman is giving a talk on feminism and respecting women.
SupermarketsRevil 7 months ago 4
This is sort of what I thought. I've seen some women say guys should never approach or talk to them anywhere other then places with large public crowds because the male 'might' be a rapist, and I kinda thought that was a little extreme. Does this mean males should only talk to males in such places because we don't want to get mugged? How creepy is it to follow someone you're interested in to a public space just to ask them out for coffee?
mordinvan 7 months ago
@mordinvan Context is everything. She'd announced a few times at this conference that she didn't like being hit on - something the man in question almost certainly heard. This guy then followed her from a public space to an elevator before inviting her back to his room for 'coffee' (at 2am coffee means sex). He had ample opportunity to approach her in a more public space, but shouldn't have even done that given she'd specifically stated that she didn't want people to hit on her.
shraka 7 months ago
@shraka
I see, so a female can say 'no one ask me out' and presume the entire world heard it, and then become offended when someone who may not of heard it does. Also who cares if he meant sex or not? People are inclined to seek consenting adults of fornicate with, its how we behave. If he persisted, or harassed her after her refusal, that would be a problem, but I've not heard that they did, and infact heard he did not. I really don't see the issue.
mordinvan 7 months ago
@mordinvan She umm, did say it in her talk to the conference. She didn't just mention it to her friends and hope everyone knew Then her only response to this was to decline, then use this as an example to everyone of the sort of behaviour she doesn't like. I dunno why everyone is getting on her case.
shraka 7 months ago
@shraka
"did say it in her talk to the conference"
Did everyone in the hotel attend that conference? If not, then one can not reasonably expect everyone to have heard it.
"Then her only response to this was to decline,"
Which is fine. If he insisted after that, security would need to be involved, either that or a large rock.
"I dunno why everyone is getting on her case."
Its not so much 'her' case, but the cases of her more fervent supporters.
mordinvan 7 months ago
@shraka
I have seen arguments from people who support her which contain condemnation of anyone who talks to a girl in virtually any situation where she's not surrounded by a swat team with weapons drawn. I've heard people condemn guy for not being psychic and known a girl doesn't want to talk to them before she's even been made aware he exists One going so far as to refer to all men as schrodinger's rapists, which I find more then a little offensive.
mordinvan 7 months ago
@mordinvan Yeah well those people are obviously retarded.
shraka 7 months ago
Your shirt is EPIC ;)
BornWithoutReligion 7 months ago
@BornWithoutReligion *grin* Sometimes you just gotta advertise. :)
BionicDance 7 months ago
Does this also apply to stairs?
realigiousrayne 7 months ago
@realigiousrayne I'll leave Stairgate to the SG-1 team. ;)
BionicDance 7 months ago 2
@thkaal1
"My thoughts on elevatorgate is that they are no longer really necessary."
Oh, I like to lean on them when I ask women out. Luckily the most they do is bend down, pat me on my head and say : "Well isn't that cute. BUT IT'S WRONG!"
MomoTheBellyDancer 7 months ago
@thkaal1 ...don't make me hurt you. :P
BionicDance 7 months ago 2
Seems to me the drama is not being created by Watson, but by pretty much everybody else. To borrow Plait's phrase, the guy was just being a dick, and he had to know that confronting/asking Watson, alone in an elevator at 3:00AM to come up to his room for some "coffee" would be an intimidating dickish thing to do. Did he really think his move would have been anymore successful, than to just say he appreciated her presentation, and hoped to see her tomorrow?
oscargordon 7 months ago 2
So if a big and strong woman asks you out for a drink in an elevator, you're allowed to kick her ass and taser her as well?
MomoTheBellyDancer 7 months ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer You quite DESPERATELY need to watch my next video, the one I posted after this one. It's called "Critical Listening".
BionicDance 7 months ago
you people oppinions on coffey is totally fked up! RW dossent fight for equal rights, its more and more special women rights, its like all those fking adds you see " you dont hit girls/women.. real men dont rape women... I could go on and on but im waiting for the next feminits to tazer mee next time i go out at night to get some vodka junkfood or coke, oh the bless of "preemtive strikers"
painterQjensen 7 months ago
FUCKING THANK YOU BIONIC DANCE I was never a much of a fan but ill be subscribing to you now thank you very much. I tried to make this point on Rebecca Watsons fb page and got banned for being a "misogynistic douche bag" really? Fuck her that shit is silly I dont like the term but thats pretty feminazi of her.
hopked 7 months ago
@hopked Women are just smaller than men. The average women doesn't have a chance against the average man. Especially given that a lot of men who assault other people have martial arts training. Pit me (brown belt in Karate - average height, below average lean weight) against an average women with a taser in her purse and I'd still be betting on me.
shraka 7 months ago
@shraka And against any women with a blue belt in bjj and maybe a month or two in boxing my money would be on her.
hopked 7 months ago
@hopked I'd give you even odds. Give me an extra 20kg of muscle (I know plenty of guys who have this) and my money would firmly be back on me again. My point is just that training is all well and good, but from all my training which included real fight analysis from security cameras and training with bouncers, you're unlikely to be attacked unless the odds are firmly in their favour. Your best bet is to learn to detect a situation early, then run - FAST. Something most MA don't teach.
shraka 7 months ago
@shraka our female blue belts can tap out a 370 lbs male over and over again. My money would be on the female. Also alive enviroments encorauge healthy mentalitys and as such someone like a rapist wouldnt do well in a bjj gym and deducing this would lead bjj to being the best posible martial art for females to practice for thier own protection
hopked 7 months ago
@hopked Except that it requires you to engage with your opponent. And your opponent might have a friend. BJJ has rules - a real fight doesn't.
shraka 7 months ago
@shraka BJJ was developed for no rules look into the history a bit please Im tired of that silly argument agasint it and thats all it is. Karate has more rules then bjj and the only rules in a bjj gym are there to maximize safety while training. The gracies developed it as a no rules martail art and it is still the most functional. Someone on drugs can ressit kicks punchs or even a taser or mace but no one can ressit blood lose to the brain. I suggest you do some reading before commenting on it.
hopked 7 months ago
@hopked I'm guessing you haven't had any real world experience with fighting. My argument isn't against BJJ, it's against martial arts. The best self defence technique is to learn to identify situations early, and get REALLY good at a 200m dash. That and carry $100 in $5 notes that you can throw at someone before you run. Once you've got all that down, then perhaps learn how to escape a hold, and throw a punch - but only to disorient and/or evade your attacker. In real life a fight is often 2+v1
shraka 7 months ago
@shraka I cant really divoulge how wrong you are in real life no most of the time they arent. As far as the main point its about doing something like that to build confidence so not only have you completely missed the point but your also wrong.
hopked 7 months ago
@hopked Ha ha, can't divulge? Right right, hero. Have fun teaching people the wrong way to defend themselves. Hope you don't get anyone seriously injured.
shraka 7 months ago
@shraka .....Who told you I was teaching anyone not to mention your always risking getting hurt in any fight. Main point dont fight. Still need to know bjj
hopked 7 months ago
I agree, I can't really see why she would feel intimidated, I wasn't there, but just how many ways can someone ask you to have some coffee with them?
medallish 7 months ago
@medallish Coffee after midnight means sex. And she'd told this guy (And everyone at the conference who attended any of her lectures) that she didn't like being hit on. She just used this as an example of inappropriate. It's not like she's charging the guy with assault or anything.
shraka 7 months ago
This is ignorance of the highest order by a sheltered loudmouth. First, unless you're the only human who is bulletproof (and fireproof and poison-proof...) you can be threatened.
Second, if you try using such weak-sauce kicks, punches and blocks in a real fight, you're going to be hurt or worse.
onlylettersand0to9 7 months ago
Martial Arts or karate would be good for women. They should know how to protect themselves.
thereforeithought 7 months ago
@thereforeithought ...from other women. It takes a LOT of training to overcome even fairly small differences in weight - and women on average have a lot less muscle mass than men. This is compound by the fact that your opponent will probably have some training themselves.
shraka 7 months ago
@shraka What!? Huh!? It is good for women to have self-defense training. Your comment sounds like women have already lost. They HAVEN'T. You must change your attitude.
thereforeithought 7 months ago
@thereforeithought Self defense and martial arts are not the same thing. It's good for all people to be aware of their environments, be taught how to talk their way out of a situation, to project themselves as confidant, and to learn how to run. Martial Arts, on the other hand, are far less useful than those four things.
A real life fight is rarely fare - you usually don't get targeted unless the odds are in the attackers favour.
shraka 7 months ago
How about the girl just politely asks the man to stop? lol
Plan B should be the mentioned above
ateopuertorico