do u want to tell me that there weren't any Polish ppl in Volhynia, Eastern Galicia, Belarus? Those territories were (and are still) ethnic mixed and belonged to PL-LT Commonwealth. Russians & Georgians were almost absent there. Poles, Ukrainians, Belorussians, Jews... even Czechs and Armenians in Galicia. Russian perhaps 1-2%. so i still don't understand why u think bolshevik Russia had right to take non-Russian area. because Lloyd George wanted it?
@Lattarnik independent Poland has never ever been "totalitarian power"! if Sanacja is recognized as a kind of totalitarianism it means Russia and similar government forms are totalitarian nowadays. that is total nonsense.
Did you not tell us in your other daily spams that Poland was insignificant? Well, now suddenly the Poles are significant and a BS artist like you hiSSto devotes his entire time trying to revise their history according to neo-Nazi fairy tales.
HiSSto, better tell us about the 1904 -1907 Herero and Namaqua German Genocides. Then tell us about WW1 too and how that happened.
Go ahead. You’re on YT pages every day anyway. While at it, don’t forget to tell us how you became a pilot, financier, nuclear physicist, Vietnam War correspondent, EU advisor, book(s) writer, neo-Nazi and a prolific SPAMMER, FRAUD and the all-in-one BS artist! Tell us!
@flyabroom I can't claim either "puclear physicist" or "financier" but I do have a (now inactive) pilots license with IFR specs, did do a two year stint in Vietnam in my late 20's, am an "economist" specializing in regional development economics with both governments and private sector clients operating in the EU and elsewhere. I've never claimed the EU organization as a client except for secondments, have authored books (3) with another at the editors, am NOT a neo-Nazi.
ONLY a neo-Nazi jackass like hiSSto will attempt to equate the Polish War of Independence with the Nazi Germany’s invasions, the German Nazi destruction of Europe and intended genocide of the entire peoples like the Poles, most Slavs - including Russians, Jews, Gypsies, and the handicapped, homosexuals and the mentally ill, even children.
@flyabroom Only a fool like Fly would call an aggressive war on Lithuania, Russia and the Ukraine as the "Polish War of Independence. It WASN't. It was a naked aggressive NAZI-like war led by Pilsudski, Beck and Rydz-Smigly to reconstruct the mythological polish empire that really never was a "polish" empire to begin with.
@flyabroom You know Fly, when you can lay your hands on the slightest proof that German Nazi destruction included "intended genocide of entire peoples like the Poles, most Slavs - including Russians, Jews, Gypsies, and the handicapped, homosexuals and the mentally ill, even children" you should present it to the world, because you would have found the holy grail of some propagandists. It is this EXAGGERATION that identifies you as a pure FOOL.
"THAT makes Pilsudski's Poland a rogue, aggressive nation because it BROKE these TERMS already in Feb, 1919. " NO, bolsheviks broke Treaty of Brest and crosses the line drown by it.
once again, KRESY WERE ETHNIC MIXED and no PL goverment would allow to give them under red terrorist reign.
o-one suffered more in WW2 than the people of Poland who were squeezed between two aggressive states. Their resistance was truly magnificand and certainly earned the respect of everyone in the Uk where to this day, Poles are always made particularly welcome.
THE SMASHING OF POLAND WOULD'T HAVE HAPPENED IF STUPID POLISHES WOULD HAVE GIVEN BACK SUDETENLAND TO IT'S LEGITIMOUS OWNER: GERMANY...........DEUTSCHLAND! SIEG HEIL!
Hitler did not want war! He wanted to take Poland peacefully like he took Austria and Czechoslovakia. And that "great" Wehrmacht was in panic after 2 weeks of war against Poland and Germans begged Stalin to invade from east. Hitler,s state had been preparing for war since 1935 and he had better weapons than any other state in the world. And a big part of it became twisted scrap after September 1939.
@Gerzaj17 You are truly misinformed. Hitler and Stalin had a pact before war in which Germany would take western Poland and Russia would take eastern Poland. Read about the Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty. Hitler wanted war. He was building armaments for years in defiance of the Versailles Treaty. Read your own notes, you are contradicting yourself.
@niepokanana You've misunderstood. I agree with you, but... Hitler wanted to conquer Russia. With or without Poland. He offered alliance to Poles against bolsheviks for Polish agreement to annex Gdańsk to 3rd Reich and exterritorial highway and railroad through Polish Pomerania. When that policy collapsed Hitler decided to destroy Poland and to make her west "allies" harmless. To do this he needed temporary peace with SU. So Poland didn't become the satellite state like Romania, Bulgaria.
@niepokanana And please... Don't teach me the history of my country. :-) Better delete notes that idiot tuyocuyo who even doesn't know that Sudetenland has NEVER belonged to German state.
@Gerzaj17 Following on with niepokanana said, the very idea of the soviet involvement came from Stalin! Why? Because in 1919-1921 Pilsudski's POLISH IMPERIALISTS invaded Russia, Ukraine and Lithuania and grabbed land that was NOT polish settled (google and find "Poland1937linguistic,jpg" map. So when Ribbentrop came, Stalin said "I want our the land back". Poland made Russia an enemy in 1919-1921, and paid the price in 1939 and again in 1944 when Russia REFUSED to help.
@Gerzaj17 Poles tend to forget that they made ENEMIES of ALL their neighbours with the massive violations of the Polish Versailles Treaty and the endless ethic cleaning of Lithuanians, Belorussians and Ukrainians from their ancient homelands, and many other "frictions" to try to grab full sovereignty of Danzig. The Poles also have major amounts of blood dripping of their hands from their politics from 1919 to 1939.
@Gerzaj17 Not so. During the Molotov-Ribbentrop meetings in Moscow it was Stalin who pulled out the map and said "I want back the land that Poland stole from Russia in 1919-1921" He drew the Curzon Line at which polish settlement stopped and said, "If you invade Poland from the west, we will follow you and invade from the east to take back our land. Agreed?" Ribbentrip went back to the embassy at 11:45 and phone Hitler. Hitler agreed to Stalin's suggestion. The deal was done !!! ...
@Gerzaj17 ... The original of the map with the pencil line Stalin drew was then signed and initialled by Stalin and Ribbentrop. It was found in the Ribbentrop papers in 1993 in Bavaria. It was the line that the Versailles conference had agreed to give to Poland, but the Poles got TOO GREEDY TOO FAST. Poland made enemies of everybody with its actions and paid the price. (Its still doing it even now in the EU!)
I judged the Poles by their enemies. And I found it was an almost unfailing truth that their enemies were the enemies of magnanimity and manhood. If a man loved slavery, if he loved usury, if he loved terrorism and all the trampled mire of materialistic politics, I have always found that he added to these affections the passion of a hatred of Poland. She could be judged in the light of that hatred; and the judgment has proved to be right."
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germany and polen have come to a normal neighborhood in this time ! polen don´t have want! it is not true that hitler and the germans have want this war the germans have all do that is not comes to this madness! after the war all was put in german shoes like after ww1 that is nothing new!
Really? So why Germans allowed Hitler to start that war? Every German ˝Heiled˝ during II WW, but in1944-1945 whan Red Army swept all nazi crap from Eastern Europe they started to behave like fataity.
Post-1945 Poland REALLY got "freed" by the so-called "Rokossowsky Plan".Where the Polish economy was forced to sell 1 dollar worth of goods to the USSR (for comparative purposes) for ten cents! That's called robbery
urteilssicher, Unfortunately so, just like DDR/East Germany etc. Seems the Soviets enjoyed taking Berlin, but unfortunately SHitler wasn't at the Zoo but hiding in his bunker like a rat in a sewer. Of course Shitler also flooded the subway in Berlin killing many German civilians & trrops.
@christof139 That is American fiction. The Russian managed that by artillery shelling into the Spree River near the MuseumInsel. Don't tell BS Hollywood stories.
@historatia, Soviets managed what? What is 'Hollywood' fiction? The Polish counterattack at the Bzura River, the AK fighting the nazis & then the Soviets in Poland? I have known AK people. I think you are BS & stink like it.
@christof139 What I am referring to here is that the entire Soviet (Stalin) response, both with the invasion of Poland in 1939 and then NOT helping during the Warsaw uprising was based on the hatred of the Poles for the invasions of 1919-1922 by Pilsudski to grab land that was NOT Polish settled, and then the effort to brutally ethnically cleanse the Russians, Lithuanians and Ukrainians from their own land. Poland did in 1919-1939 what Hitler started to do in 1939. Poland was no Mother Teresa.
@historatia as i've noticed Gerzaj17 is out. so let me answer ur ridiculous theses.
1. PL didn't attack Russia in 1919-21, no polish soldier entered Russian territory in that time. but bolsheviks & Denikin's army occupied large part of Ukraine. perhaps u don't know that but Ukraine is not Russian land and people was speaking the other language there. Belarus - the same.
2. PL didn't attack Lithuania but took undefended city of Wilno inhabited by Polish majority and Jewish minority.
@historatia even today this region in Polish called Wileńszczyzna is Polish-language one. Polish army was welcome there by majority.
3. in April 1920 PL and our ally UKR (UKR leader Semen Petlyura Пeтлюрa) attacked bolsheviks. u probably don't know the fact that Polish intelligence could read bolshevik coded messages. it was clear they planned assault against PL, and Piłsudski knew this. PL & UKR were first. unforunetely PL was meneged to liberate UKR and sweep bolsheviks out.
@historatia 4. the land in the east of Bug river was ethic mixed. cities was Polish-Jewish, many towns and villages too. show me ethic line between GER and Luxemburg. Curzon line was artificial. it was simply east Russia border after third participation of Poland. nothing more. and Versailles had nothing to Polish east borders bcause this conference concerned peace treaty between GER and entante, not PL-Russian matters, not Polish east border.
@historatia 5. Ribbentrop-Mołotov pact. do u know first version drew GER-USSR border on Wisła/Vistula river? no? u wanted to tell us that part of Warsaw- Praga, Lublin, Zamość, Siedlce were Russian cities? more, Lwów / L'viv had never seen russian soldiers untill Soviet took it on September 12, 1939. NEVER!
6. about Lithuania. do you know Kowno / Kaunas the "temporary" capital of Lthuania was Polish-language city in that time?
1-1. You're absolutely full of polish propaganda, but its FALSE. Read the Lord Curzon report. If you google for either of two map files, "Poland1937linguistic.jpg" and "Bevoelkerungsverteilung_Ostmitteleuropa_um_1918.jpg" you will see clearlu the distribution of population by settlement. Or go read the Curzon Report for Versailles Conference.
@Lattarnik 1-2 In 1919 Pilsudski entered RUSSIAN territory that was under Russian sovereignty bases on the lifting of the Brest-Litovsk Treaty by the Allies with article 15 of the Armistice. Since when was White Russia not Russia. British diplomats in Warsaw expressed great concern. By 1922 45% of the "Polish State" claimed population was NOT Polish.
2. Vilnius was part of Czarist Russian Lithuania. Russia had sovereignty, Poland did NOT. The League of Nations using the Census data of 1890, the German Census of 1916, and after adjusting for Russian have left as the Germans came in, granted it to Lithuania and demanded that Pilsudski withdraw. He BROKE the Polish Versailled Treaty and REFUSED. Major Provocation.
3-1 Your story if "Polish Intelligence" and a planned attack is BOGUS. As of the Brest-Litovsk Treaty March 1918 Russia had largely disarmed and the Germans had taken the weaponry. In fact the German and Austrian trained Polish divisions that Pilsudski had transfered to him and he used in the aggessive assaults were in possession of much of the surrendered Russian weaponry. Only as of Nov 11, 1918 did the Soviets start to rearm.
3-2 However Within only 70 days of the WWI Armistice, Pilsudski struck hard, knowing Russia was very weak from its defeats. You can paint is as wars of 'liberation' but they were WARS of POLISH IMPERIALISM to grab land READ PILSUDSKI'S OWN SPEECHES. SHOW PROOF of your claim of Soviet plans to attack or WITHDRAW. You CAN"T.
3-3 Your claim of Soviet war plans on Poland are NOT credible. Lenin/Trotsky had other more important uses for their very fresh army in local revolts. I say your FABRICATING stories.
@Lattarnik 4. Yes "ethnic mixed, but NOT majority Polish, or even close to it. Curzon Line was NOT ARTIFICIAL. You're making up more stories by denying TRUTH that doesn't fit your story. The Curzon and Foch lines BOTH came from Versailles work. The Armistice and Wilsons 14 points say Poland gets land with clear predominance of Polish settlement and institutions. NOT what they can GRAB with WAR.
@Lattarnik 5-1. You're making up complete Fiction about the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact. We have the details in both Russian and German accounts and they agree completely! There was NO version other Stalin's first map drawn by Vischynski. Ribbentrop was surprised by Stalin's request. He did NOT negotiate the line (close to Curzon line). He left and called Hitler by phone at midnight. Hitler was surprised and said "Yes" after a few minutes.
5-2. All of the cities were multi-ethnic to a considerable degree. Lwow, also known as Lviv, and Lemburg for example. Poles eren't even the largest ethnic group. The Jews were. The area around it was by far majority Ukrainian. I never said Lublin, Zamosc or Siedice was not Polish settled. Neither did the Curzon line nor did the Vichinsky line. Your point?
@Lattarnik 6. I have no evidence of the numbers, but I do know that quite early in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth days the Lithuanians began to resent the efforts to polonize, especially because of the polish russophobia. From the beginning as even now, the Polish desire to dominate the Lithuanians is strong. Kaunus became the temporary capital because of Polish aggression. That is a historical fact.
it is difficult to discuss with man who is denying facts.
there was no planned polonization of eastern nation in Commonwealth. in 17 century lannguage of dokuments in Gdańsk & Toruń was low German, szlachta (gentry) in Ukraine use ruthenian (ukrainian) on sejmik assemblies, Jews had their tax, cultural and judicial self-government. Polonization were voluntary, and its largest influences took place after paricipations of Commonwealth. no state policy to polonize.
@Lattarnik Even your most polished-biased maps show that the area was NOT predominantly Polish settled with predominantly Polish culture/instititutions. For you to DENY Polonization efforst means you have NEVER looked the Polish Ministry Files (Skladkowski as the last Minister, copies to Beck's files) that show MONTHYLY REPORTS on the ethnic cleansing and polonization. (closing of Ukrainian language schools, in the east. destruction of Eastern Church congregations.Its all there...
@Lattarnik Did you go to school to be fed this incredible "whitewash" of the Polish behaviour in the 1919-1939 period? Why would Josef Beck in 1934 even bother to FORMALLY rescind the MINORITY RIGHTS under the Polish Versailles Treaty? "No state policy to polonize?" Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of Canadian Ukrainians whose shattered families went to Canada because of Polish ethnic cleansing. And your FACTS aren't FACTS in the first place! You write "make-believe".
@Lattarnik Of the added 2.5 million less than 500,000 or 20% were Polish. Even if you double that for population exchange, that means that Polish population in the Kresy in 1918 -- BEFORE THE POLISH IN-MIGRATION FLOOD was 12% to 16% and certainly not more than 25% ... about the estimates you can calculate from the Curzon Report analysis.
probably u don't know Polish, u can't read Polish documents, but...yes, i know, Polish document are biased & manipulated, German or Swiss are always correct and show truth. ok, nevermind. polish goverment policy for nationalities was not "worse" than in other European countries, there was organized settlement for veterans and former soldiers in Kresy, but calling it ethnic cleansing is silly. of course u've "forgot" to mention ukr nationalistic terrorists and bolshevik saboteurs...
@Lattarnik I know all about Ukrainians in in Lemburg too. The fascinating thing is that after a while the Ukrainians, like the Germans own up to the TRUTH of it. The POLES NEVER admit that they did anything except for a "noble" purpose to help others, a regular Mother Teresa country. I have colleagues who read Polish (are Polish) I read German, French, English and struggle with Russian. I have about 280 Polish documents with official translations, into English, French, German (1916 to 1942).
@historatia German "legalism" is funny. grabbed from Soviets in 1919-21... USSR existed 1922-1991. bolshevik government wasn't recognised by any other state in 1919. why don't u mension that the same land was stolen by Tsarist Russia, by Prussian Kingdom and by Austrian Empire after three patitions of PL-LT commonwealth?
Galicia have been part of PL Kingdom since 40s of 14. century. Land of Polish state. Grand Duchy included Belarus and Lithuania.
@Lattarnik I didn't because the church records show that EVEN THEN, the land was settled by people who were NOT Poles. Poles have been led to believe that if some Polish noble farted some place, the land he farted on his polish forever. Its not. The land belongs to those how developed, put in the capital, made it productive. It was not automatically the right of some Polish landowner to come and TAKE it, and VILNIUS by that definition should NEVER have been attacked by Poland like it was.
@Lattarnik Even BEFORE 1795 Galicia was NOT predominently Polish settled. Only Polish researchers try to find some way to support the Polish Lebensraum attacks. NOT ALL the land of the Commonwealth was settled by Poles. Got that now. Go to Geneva, look at the copied letters (early us of document copying with cameras for the Inquiries units of the Versailles process).
@Lattarnik Calling what happened in Galicia ethnic cleansing is a mild term for it. Poles STILL don't own up to the government (Josef Beck and Skladkowski- authorized) police and terrorist activities with horrific murders or Ukranians. (for example)
@historatia Russia-Moscovia (citation) "MILITARILY GRABBED" that land. Minsk/Мінск, Witebsk/Віцебск, Połock/Полацк have never been Russian cities. "legalism" tells us tsaritsa Yekaterina stole them. if u're going to say that Lithuanians have stroger right to the land, u should know that Constitution of May 3, 1791 abolished distinction between PL Kingdom & Grand Duchy. so we had the same rights to this land as LT.
probably u don't know Polish, u can't read Polish documents, but...yes, i know, Polish document are biased & manipulated, German or Swiss are always correct and show truth. ok, nevermind. polish goverment policy for nationalities was not "worse" than in other European countries, there was organized settlement for veterans and former soldiers in Kresy, but calling it ethnic cleansing is silly. of course u've "forgot" to mention ukr nationalistic terrorists and bolshevik saboteurs...
@historatia ... who were sowing urest in the East. ok, a citation: "it was the Polish Aggression to steal Soviet land (Belarus, Lithuania, Ukraine) that had STALIN SUGGEST to Hitler that he would TAKE THE SOVIET LAND LOST IN 1919-1921 TO POLISH AGGRESSION BACK INTO THE SOVIET UNION." your words. Soviet land, yes? Polish aggression? BACK INTO SOVIET UNION???
U ARE SPREADING LIES & u do this CONSCIOUSLY!
PEOPLE! LEARN HISTORY READING GOOD BOOKS, NOT FROM GUYS LIKE USER "historatia"!
@Lattarnik Yes, my words, and I stick by them. Only in the Polish mythology were those "Polish". With the Versailles Treaties there were 52 Commissions of inquiry. Their research collected Polish, Russian, Germanm Lithuanian documents, land ownership books, archives -- everything. Those lands were NOT Polish, NOT given to Poland, but MILITARILY GRABBED from the Soviets as successors of the Czarist Russia. i am NOT spreading lies but TRUTH .. Consciously.
@Lattarnik Do you DENY that Pilsudski took the German and Austrian trained forces of 700,000 that had defeated Russia/Soviets in 1917 and their surrendered arms and in February 1919 immediately attacked these lands that were east of the Curzon Line? Do you DENY IT. ... YES or NO... Do you deny that these were White Russian settled lands for centuries and when Catherine the Great was in power ? YES or NO ... Pilsudsky/Beck/Rydz did just like Hitler! YES or NO? Please answer..
@historatia PL hadn't "noble" purposes, but she cared of her interests. why should PL have submitted to interests of unrecognised state using terror against their people & not to realize her own ones? Soviets was'n successors of Tsarist Russian they were tsar killers. Lenin had stated partitions of PL-LT Commonwealth illegal and sent Red Army to west to cross the pre-partition border.
@Lattarnik Poland as a "presumptive state" existied at the moment of the Armistice with the attributed describing it as the lands in which the THEN 1918 conditions of settlement predominance were satisfied. Go read the words. It didn't say --"Whatever was once in the Commonwealth as it existed in 1567" or "Wherever Mieszko I once farted between 970 and 985."The ONLY recognized authority given to the "non-state" Polish interests was thus laid out in principle based on settlement at that time.
@Lattarnik TO AVOID DISPUTES and WAR the Versailles Treaty set out the PRINCIPLE of self-determination. You are now saying that that PRINCIPLE held ONLY for the borders of Germany and that is WRONG! On the basis of the Armistice Poland, even without al borders drawn on maps was RESTRICTED to the the THEN POLISH SETTLED areas, so ANY MILITARY CHARGE on others not predominantly Polish settled lands was AGGRESSION. Pilsuidski led FIVE "Lebensraum" "OSTSIEDLUNG" wars of aggression.
@Lattarnik Show me a reference where it states "Poland had the authority to immediately drive its forces eastward onto the lands of other people and force them from their homes, and take sovereignty over their lands" Show me.... Poland isn't Israel, which bases its claim on some dubious mythology in some old bible. The Poles are mentioned in the any such old testament, so stop trying to put it there, or construct false data. POLISH LEADERSHIP WAS VIOLENT AND BASICALLY CRIMINAL IN 1919.
@Lattarnik The settlement, maps, even those produced by responsible Polish demographers/geographers, show that these lands were NOT settled by Poles, and thus it was clear that Poland had to be constituted out of the Polish settled lands PLUS the connection to the Baltic, NOTHING MORE.
@historatia the line what was called "Curzon Line" later was known as the Russian western border after 3rd Partition. it wasn't ethnic line. so, using your "legalism" the first little battles between Polish and bolshevik troops took place inside Polish or Lthuanian or Belarussian borders (that 3 states had equal rights to that terrain).
@Lattarnik Your are WRONG! in areas that are NOT part of a state except the last one. If that is to change, the PEOPLE (based on settlement) are Sovereign, NOT OTHER STATE not recognized by the PEOPLE. That is the very essence of "self-determination" so there was no "3 states had equal rights to that terrain". Precisely to STEAL that right to make their own choices from people who were settled there did the Poles go on a killing, murder, and raping rampage followed by the terror.
@Lattarnik Precisely because Poland feared that the settled people would CHOOSE for Lithuania/Russia/Lithuania did Poland strike to stop the decision being based on the RIGHTS of the PEOPLE. Poland conquered other people and then made up NONSENSE cover stories about "We saved Europe from Communist Beasts" an "Miedmorze, the Great Slavic Empire of the West". False propaganda to cover ugly polish conquest of other people. It was RIGHT that Stalin took it back and settled it.
@Lattarnik Curzon Line was based on studies of settlement, NOT the Russian border as of the third partition. I know that even now Poles claim that land. Those people have been there for a very long time and built up their land? Do Poles still claim to smell the farts of Mieszko or Konrad some other ancient Pole? Do you still advance your claims that Belarus is really Poland? Pilsudski claim Russia is only "east of the Volga". Go read his speeches and stop blathering nonsense.
@historatia To drive this into your head, Latternik, I will give you the direct quotes from the Wilson's 14 points about Poland;
13. An independent Polish state should be erected which should include the territories inhabited by indisputably Polish populations, which should be assured a free and secure access to the sea, and whose political and economic independence and territorial integrity should be guaranteed by international covenant.
(a) The 14 points say "indisputably Polish populations" and not 'whereever a few poles live amongst Lithuaniand Russans, Germans, etc.
(b) The access to the sea,
(c) "territorial integrity to be guaranteed by international covenant" which means that the Versailles nations at the League of Nation have to ACCEPT AND AGREE to the boundaries.
THAT makes Pilsudski's Poland a rogue, aggressive nation because it BROKE these TERMS already in Feb, 1919.
@historatia i see u are representing Soviet point of view, funny.
Soviet Russia was ILLEGAL state. hords of red bandits.
i see, that PL should ask for permission to stay alive, then she would be cool. PL-LT was ILLEGALLY patitioned, Prussians robbed Wawel, stole regalia, and for you that was correct. when after years we want to take our own, foreigners say: u mustn't. Poles were majority in Wilno, Kowno, Lwów, Grodno in Wilno Region, Grodno Region. even today after post-ww II ethnic cleansing..
@Lattarnik Not true. In 1942 the Poles were 42% of the Wilno Region. By 1959 the were down to 20%. Poland was NOT illegally partitioned. It was a "State" that ceased to exist because it political instutions failed completely. The part that went with Prussian had 22 seats in the Prussian legislature where Polish was an official language. Poles were majority in Lwow ONLY AFTER TERRORIZING THE UKRAINIANS OUT, and by a false count.
@historatia Poles are majorities in the lands around Vilnius & Hrodna. and nor Poles neither Belorussians didn't want to be ruled by red terror.
English politicians thought they might dictate PL authorities what PL borders were legal. that kid of "legalism" was unaccepted for PL. Soviet Russia & Soviet Ukraine agreed to Polish eastern border line by signing Riga Treaty in 1921. in 1939 Stalin broke RT and pact of non-aggression pact signed in 1932. period.
@Lattarnik The POLES did not get to decide what the Belorussians wanted or didn't want. That was THEIR business, Do you have the right to decide what Czechs and Slovaks want? NO. In Wisons 14 point/Versailles said, "... all questions affecting Russia as will secure the best and freest cooperation of the other nations of the world in obtaining for her an unhampered and unembarrassed opportunity for the independent determination of her own political development and national policy..."
@Lattarnik With Poland Versailles Treaty Poland accepted the Wilson 13th point that POLAND "...should include the territories inhabited by indisputably Polish populations, which should be assured a free and secure access to the sea, and whose political and economic independence and TERRITORIAL INTEGITY should be guaranteed by INTERNATIONAL COVENANT" For that COVENANT, the other nations had to agree so your are WRONG. Its in the Poland Treaty that re-created the Polish State !!!
@historatia You have NO arguments ONLY SLOGANS hiSSto. Your posts are like the omnipresent banners in the 3rd Reich repeating the same LIES over and over again, hoping that some naïve juveniles will believe in them. In each case, a common sense analysis or a short internet search exposes all of your utterances as neo-Nazi propaganda. You are all over the YT, looking for Polish sites and inserting your ignorant comments anywhere you can. You have a huge Poland complex, like all hitlerites do.
@historatia One of your typical MANIPULATIONS of facts goes like this: "In 1942 the Poles were 42% of the Wilno Region." Well, in 1942 both the Germans and Soviets had already occupied Wilno for 3-years and murdered, or deported to death camps or Syberia majority of the Poles from there.
@flyabroom Absolute rubbish Fly, absolute Rubbish. In fact, I will QUOTE you the comments on wiki.
In December 1939, shortly after their take-over of the area, the Lithuanian authorities organized a new census in the area. However, the census is often criticized by Polish statisticians, as skewed, intending to prove the historical and moral rights of Lithuania to the disputed area, rather than to determine the factual composition"...
@flyabroom The May 1942 Census was shows that for Vilnius, of 209,729, the Polish population was 87.855, and the Russians (after many Russians had fled) was only 4,090. Thus the ACTUAL polish % before the Russians fled (1941) and Germans were moved out (1939-1940) was a very much lower ... 30% to 35%. Interestingly, in direct contrast to allegations of fraudulent reporting, the Jews numbered 58,263 and the Lithuanians 51,111. ...
@historatia Only a hitlerite would quote a German 1942 census. Between 1939 and 1941 Wilno population INCREASED by 60 thousand (28%), while Polish population was being deported from the city. Who do you think was carted in to the city at that time???
@historatia A December 09, 1931 Census reveals that Poles made up 65.9% of the total Vilnius population (128.600 inhabitants), Jews 28% (54.600 inhabitants), Russians 3,8% (7.400 inhabitants), Belarusians 0.9% (1.700 inhabitants), Lithuanians 0.8% (1.579 inhabitants), Germans 0.3% (600 inhabitants), Ukrainians 0.1% (200 inhabitants), others 0.2% (approx. 400 inhabitants). Between 1931 and 1939 population changed little (~10 thousand), making it the most dredible Census.
@flyabroom The same German/Lithuanian census is often criticized because in the totals for the Vilnius REGION the Census (that showed 52,263 Jews in the City) showed No Jews in the REGION. It turns out that the critics mis-understood the german words "ohne Juden" (without Jews) in that table but reported them elsewhere, because in the rural and small towns many had fled, making a count difficult. The estimate was added on a subsequent table.
@flyabroom I'm glad you managed to find a place to enter the words "murdered" and ascribed that action to the Germans and Soviets. The Soviets, of course, on taking the area back made claims that the Poles had "murdered" and forced into Lithuania (as it existed from 1921 to 1939) and Russia, tens of thousands of Lithuanians and Russians and many Germans into East Prussia as well. Nice poetic touch. Did you not know that every Pilsudski soldier was a "murderer"? Learn something every day?
@flyabroom 1. As you know, the phony census that the Poles did in Galicia earlier came back to haunt them when the Lord Curzon report was produced. the maps and the mountains of data (church birth records, hospital records etc, are all in Geneva. Three of the 52 commissions of inquiry for Versailles dealt extensively with this stuff. 2. Your ignorance of the war is showing.
@flyabroom There is no evidence that the Russians as of October 1939 murderd Poles. Nor in the other Czarist areas that Stalin took back is there evidence of major civilian murders. ( In Russian lore Katyn military killings (three sets) was "payback" for Pilsudski's rampages in 1919-1921 (including the slaughters in his camps of Russian officers, etc etc etc).
@historatia There is plenty of undeniable evidence that Soviets (not necessarily Russians) murdered Poles by the thousands even much before 1939, and you know it.
@flyabroom In the ethnic cleansing wars it happened both ways. The only issue is who started it, and it was Pilsudski and then when it came to the terror, Josef Beck showed no hesitation. Last one was of a long list Sladkowski
@historatia Provide a link to this data ... . Besides, what kind of an option for a Pole was to become a Soviet citizen? These were Polish citizens and ethnic Poles. Most Poles from that area were loaded on trains and shipped off to Siberia. Many able bodied men were considered dangerous to the Soviet state and murdered. Because of this treatment, many others became Polish independence fighters of the AK, NSZ, etc.
@flyabroom Rubbish. They were given the options to sign or get out. Your playing the "virtuous victimized little girl" role again Fly... Its nonsense. Such claims. Its fed to you with your mother's milk... ALWAYS others are unfair to Poles! Poles are NEVER unfair to anybody. Poles are lily white. Its YOUR mythology, but nobody believes it. Poles didn't Polonize? Evey Pole who died was "murdered"? Every Soviet Soldier as a "murderer", but Polish soldiers? heroes who never slaughtered. Bunk!
@historatia You represent the "Nazi mysticism" trend where Germans were only "provoked" to do genocide. This line of defense did not work at Nurenberg, and it won't work now.
@flyabroom More nonsense. In early December 1941 the US embassy in Berlin, and many of their consulates were still open and operating, and American business was still engaged. The genocide began in 1942 after Hitler decided that it wast the American Jews who had profited by having the Americans build up the Russian forces with MASSIVE help while theoretically staying out of the war with Germany. He decided to take revenge on "the Jews". I've never said it was 'provoked'.
@historatia "1921 (including the slaughters in his camps of Russian officers...)" You just can't stop lying, can you? In 1921, it was the Polish officers being murdered by the Soviets in the Soviet camps for the Polish POWs.
@flyabroom What, Pilsudski's 728,000 aggression army didn't take prisoners? Never had prison camps? Never starved people, always treated them fairly? No prisoner executions? All Polish fairy tales Fly. Poles used horrible terror methods. You have such an idealized view of Poles Fly. It's all propaganda MYTH Fly..
@flyabroom OK Fly.. Now I have a LIST of about 17 points that answer your question I better get started.
1. After Treaty of Riga ..."approximately one third of the new state's population was non-Catholic, including a large number of Russian Jews who immigrated to Poland following a wave of Ukrainian pogroms which continued until 1921. " We'll start there..
2. "Dmowski and Grabski (minister of religion and education) saw the solution of the "minorities problem" in imposing "Polish values" (Polish language and the Catholic Church) on the minorities to achieve "national assimilation",... Dmowski, a strong proponent of Polonization, policies ... were implemented. "Wherever we can multiply our forces and our civilizational efforts, absorbing other elements, no law can prohibit us from doing so, as such actions are our duty."
3. Stanisław Grabski, Polish Minister for Religion and Public Education in 1923 and 1925–1926, wrote that "Poland may be preserved only as a state of Polish people. If it were a state of Poles, Jews, Germans, Rusyns, Belarusians, Lithuanians, Russians, it would lose its independence again"; and that "it is impossible to make a nation out of those who have no 'national self-identification,'.
4. Grabski also said that the aim of Polish policy should be "the transformation of the Commonwealth into Polish ethnic territory." Some officials DENIED THE EXISTENCE OF THE UKRAINIAN AND BELARUSIAN NATIONS...A law ... 1924 banned usage of any language but Polish in governmental paperwork... state schools could be ONLY POLISH LANGUAGE...Kresy Wschodnie, "schools can become an instrument of the cultural development only if Polish teachers will work there".
5. ".the Jewish minority was excluded from this sector of the economy... facing acute shortage of engineers, the responsible authorities preferred to leave positions vacant than fill them with Jewish experts. Jews were also excluded from local administrations. In Lublin, where Jews made up about 40% of the population, only 2.6% of municipal workers were Jews; in Warsaw 16% of the Poles, and only 0.8% of Jews, were employed in the state or public sectors.
6." Efforts to Polonize the economy also affected Jews employed in the private sector. Boycotts of Jewish businesses were instigated by National-Democratic groups such as the League of the Green Band."
@flyabroom 7. The territories that after WWII became the Soviet Western Belarus, western Ukraine and the Vilnius region, were incorporated into interwar Poland in 1921 at the Treaty of Riga in which the Polish eastern frontiers had been first defined following the Polish–Soviet War of 1919–1921... POLAND REJECTED ITS INTERNATIONAL OBLIGATIONS TO GRANT AUTONOMY TO EASTERN GALICIA, even though the AGREEMENT WITH THE ENTENTE excluded [it]..
@flyabroom 8. "..the Ukrainian GGC attained a strong Ukrainian character, and the Polish authorities sought to weaken it. In 1924, following a North America and western Europe visit...the HEAD OF THE UGCC was...DENIED REENTRY TO LVIV for a considerable..time. Polish priests ...bishops began ... missionary work among Eastern Rite faithful,...ADMINSTRATIVE RESTRICTIONS WERE PLACED ON THE UKRAINIAN GREEK CATHOLIC CHURCH.
9. ... Any accusation was strong enough for a PARTICULAR CHURCH TO BE CONFISCATED and HANDED OVER TO THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. The goal so-called "revindication campaigns".. 190 Orthodox churches destroyed .. 150 more were forcibly transformed into ROMAN Catholic ... HEAD of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, Andrei Sheptytsky... these acts would "destroy in the souls of our non-united Orthodox brothers the very thought of any possible reunion."
10. "The land reform designed to FAVOUR THE POLES in mostly Ukrainian populated Volhynia, the agricultural territory where the land question was especially severe, brought the alienation from the Polish state of even the Orthodox Volhynian population who tended to be much less radical than the Greek Catholic Galicians."
11. "Ukrainian historian Mykhailo Hrushevsky, noted negative influence of Polish policies on the Ukrainian culture: "the four centuries of Polish rule had left particularly destructive effects (...) economic and cultural backwardness in Galicia was the main "legacy of historical Poland, which assiduously skimmed everything that could be considered the cream of the nation, leaving it in a state of oppression and helplessness"."
@flyabroom 12. During the interwar period of the 20th century (1920–1939), Lithuanian-Polish relations ...mutual enmity. ..conflict over the city of Vilnius, and the Polish-Lithuanian War, both governments - in the era of nationalism .. - TREATED THEIR RESPECTIVE MINORITIES HARSHLY. In 1920, after the staged mutiny of Lucjan Żeligowski, Lithuanian cultural activities in Polish controlled territories were limited and the CLOSURE OF LITHUANIAN newspapers and the ARREST of ... editors.
13. Editor.. "Mykolas Biržiška was accused of state treason and SENTENCED TO DEATH ... and only the direct intervention by the League of Nations saved him from being executed. He was one of 32 Lithuanian and Belarussian cultural activists formally expelled from Vilnius on September 20, 1922 and deported to Lithuania. In 1927, as tensions between Lithuania and Poland increased, 48 additional LITHUANIAN SCHOOLS WERE CLOSED.
14. "Following Piłsudski's death ...Lithuanian minority ...became an object of Polonisation policies with GREATER INTENSITY. 266 Lithuanian schools were closed after 1936 and almost all Lithuanian organizations were banned. Further Polonisation ensued as the government encouraged settlement of Polish army veterans in the disputed regions. ... 400 Lithuanian reading rooms and libraries were closed in Poland between 1936 and 1938."
15. KRESY Polonization policy by Poland in Western Belarus (1921–1939) involved: * Political terror, * suppression of Belarusian language and culture,* repressions among population of Western Belarus including Jewish population, * closure of Belarusian Orthodox churches,* policy of enforced Catholicization, * violations of election rights based on falsification of the population census,
@flyabroom 16. * suppression of mass media on Belarusian language, * confiscation and redistribution of the land to the landlords of Polish nationality, * internment of prominent Belarusian intellectuals and leaders in Bereza Kartuska, * forcing migration of Belarusians from Western Belarus
@flyabroom OK Fly.. i have LOTS more.. but that will do for a Start.. NONE of the words are mine.... All of that constitutes ethnic cleansing not only in what was legitmately Poland but also what was NOT. (Disobeying the very Entente that gaver Poland Statehood... and EVERY ACT A DIRECT BETRAYAL OF POLAND'S OBLIGATION UNDER THE VERY POLISH VERSAILLES TREATY THAT GAVE IT STATEHOOD. Poland betrayed its founding Treaty even before it signed it. .. Now go to "1" and study it carefully.
@historatia In 1920s, the concept of “ethnic cleansing” did not exist. It was coined only in the early 1990s. In the interwar period, the Polish attempt at integration and “friendlization” of minorities, cannot be analyzed without the context of still recent at the time programs of forced Germanization and Russification of the Polish population, which after the partitions of Poland was implemented FIRST and for an extended period of time. Poles were then countering the effects of that.
@historatia The Polish integration program was not always well conceived, but it was NOT “ethnic cleansing.” Between 1919 and 1939 (20 years of interwar period), Poland was still in the making. She looked for ways to peacefully integrate (NOT EXPELL) even the hostile elements of some minorities. Anti-Polish violence was sometimes met with violence or incarceration, but this was policing! A much greater effort was placed on winning the trust of all Polish citizens.
@historatia Prior to and after restoration of Poland in 1918, Poles were the subject of brutal “ethnic cleansing,” which involved violent removal of Poles from Poland by both occupying powers. In the Soviet Union of the interwar period, Poles were being killed or shipped off to Siberian Gulags for being Polish. This continued during and after WW2.
@historatia During WW2, German “ethnic cleansing” of the Poles from Poland became wholesale genocide, as it “removed” the Poles into death camps to make room for Germans.
@historatia You are really digging deep into the interwar period, because that’s when Germany lost some of its valued Polish “possessions.” You DESPERATELY want to show that Poles were no better than Germans, to undermine the higher moral ground of the Poles. If this is all you can show for your 20 years of digging then you have failed miserably. You see how hard you have to dig for the minute scraps against the Poles, while it is obvious to everyone what the German Nazis and Soviets did?
@historatia Arguing with you is becoming totally pointless, like it was with Goebbels, because you’re dishonest to the core in your history manipulations and one-sided views.
@flyabroom Fly. You are correct that YOU "arguing" with me is entirely pointless . You may not have noticed, but NOT ONE of the points I put together originates with me. They are all found on ONE wiki that does a detailed history with complete footnoted sourcing. Its NOT ME you're 'arguing' with, its be best historical record analysis that exists, and there is plenty more where that came from. That record is noe comprised of minute "scraps" and it wasn't hard digging.
@flyabroom You want only to believe things like the FICTION of "moral highground" of Poles, and the MYTHOLOGY that Polish ethnic cleansing actions were actions of "FRIENDIZATION" and "PEACEFUL INTEGRATION" when the record compiled by historians (many of whom are/were Poles) PROVED OTHERWISE. You deliberately choose the "fiction" over the "truth" and now coin new words for what did NOT happen. Even RIGHT NOW the same problems exist between Poland and Lithuania!
@flyabroom I gave you 16 points that not only DEFINE "ethnic cleansing"and the basis of it, but also POLISH examples, WHERE EVERY CASE HAD POLAND BREAKING THE VERY "POLISH TREATY" THAT ESTABLISHED IT AT VERSAILLES in which minority rights were first codified for use in other trieaties. NOW FLY you will NOT be allowed to wipe it away with your preferred belief. PROVE THAT WHAT IS SUMMARIZED FROM HISTORICAL SOURCES IS NOT TRUE OR JUST ADMIT IT .. AND SAY SO..
@flyabroom Your "ad hominum" attack on me, by falsifying my motives is improper. I am NOT anti-Polish, nor "pro-German" and I have NOT failed. My interest was (and is) to UNDERSTAND, through the benefit of a plausibe -- based on TRUTH -- explanation of just why and how WAR was re-ignited in 1939, within the context of the fuller story. Slowly the details of it all have come together. Polish imperialism, combined with the failure of Polish strategies, made an important contribution.
@flyabroom I think it sad that so many Poles root around the dusty mythological history as they imagine it for the inspiration for their future. Poland will either quietly own up their own past and move forward with western Europe or will be left behind. Already the Russians, are moving in synch with the EU towards a future that so many Poles wish to isolate themselves from in favour of regurgitating their falsified view of the past. So go chew the cud of your mythology (Polish chewing gum).
@historatia What you present as "ethnic cleansing" in the 1920s-1930s, when the concept did NOT EXIST, was then and is even today a fact in many different places around the world. What you gave as examples of "Polish ethnic cleansing" had been practiced in a substantially harsher form for over a hundred years before on the Poles. You take events OUT of context in a country being reborn from a hundred year old slavery, without taking this into account, and insert it into today's standards.
@flyabroom What's more that "hundred years of slavery" wasn't. The Poles has 24 seats in the Prussian house, some 'slavery'. You use all the "buzzwords" (like all Soviet and Nazi soldiers are 'murderers') of the propagandist. Nothing I've done takes anything out of context. The historical fact is that the Polish state COLLAPSE FROM ITS INTERNAL PROBLEMS IN THE LATE 1700'S. Accept it. All reputable Polish historians do!
@historatia "Nothing I've done takes anything out of context." ??? Have you seen a definiton of "double standard" and then do you ever read your own posts? EVERYTHING you pointed out in the last few posts against the Poles rakes of DOUBLE STANDARD !!!
@flyabroom Actually I do know what a double standard is. For example, calling Hitler's move into Poland "aggression", and then REFUSING to calling Pilsdudski's move into Lithuania, White Russia and Eastern Galicia as aggression. Another example: When Poles do terror on Ukrainians by burning churces and "murdering" them you call if "friendify" or some stupid term, but when Germans do it to Poles, that is 'ethnic cleansing. That is a double standard....
@flyabroom And when the Poles take churches from the UGCC and give them to the Roman Church that is NOT a Kulturkampf in your view, whereas when the Prussians seek to reduce the role of the Roman Church in Prussia well now that IS a "Kulturkampf". That is a double standard. Just who are you to be saying that I don't know what a double standard is? You're a little of the wall there Fly (but then I guess flies are often on the wall!)
@historatia I said before that "the Polish integration program was not always well conceived, but it was NOT “ethnic cleansing".” What Nazi Germans did to the Poles was genocide! Can't equate the two.
@historatia "Poland has no recognizable "honour", just a tawdry reputation as a "little country" acting foolishly and arrogantly..." This is so typical of your neo-Nazi stance!
@flyabroom Well let me repeat.. or you can go to various "opinion research" reports about the most admired and least admired countries of the world. In orde, USA, Germany, France, Britain,Japan, Canada, Italy, Switzerland, Austria, Sweded .... Poland? OFF the list entirely. Why would that be for such an HONOURABLE NATION... You should be FIRST shouldn't you??? (look for Nation Brand Index) It does the top 50. Where is Poland?
@flyabroom Even this vid on the destruction of Warsaw demonstrates why Poland is not highly thought of. To THROW AWAY so many lives for NOTHING is a war crime, and the Self-Appointed Polish Gov't in Exile ORDERED it. Those who died should be mourned, but it did the POLISH NATION a DISHONOUR.
@historatia According to Nazis, any resistance to Nazis was a crime. That's the PRICE they exacted for opposing them. Not even after seeing all of the prior attrocities by the Germans during WW2 did anyone expect this genocidal, destructive and barbaric behavior. In Warsaw, Nazi Germany exceeded all of the conceivable expectations.
@flyabroom Any resistance to Nazi's? Not so my dear Fly. But anyone who, after Warsaw (or any place) attacked the German -- or anybody's army -- after a place was SURRENDERED was guilty of a a crime. Read the Hague Convention of 1898 for that. So the 'uprising' for example was a 'crime'. Civil protections don't hold for partisan forces (Hague Convention). Did you know that a good many cases were prosecuted of Wehrmacht men who robbed, raped or murdered. The Wehrmacht had a criminal police.
@flyabroom You, of course make baseless, unsubstantiated claims... Tell me what were the "conceivable expectations" and I LOVE your use of word in one sentence ... And you can attest to this can you? I have some pretty good estimates of the German activities in Poland separated out by the Wehrmacht forces, the SS forces, and the special SS , while I think you're just shooting your mouth off repeating what somebody told you? without real hard evidence or proof.
@flyabroom You know that Jaruzelksi admitted that the estimates of Polish civilian killed was hugely overestimated for propaganda purposes by the Communist Regime, and every knowledgable demography says the same thing. You know what exactly? And who prepared those "expectations"? Where they prepared in 1938 of 1939? You shot your mouth off on this so now put up OK?
@flyabroom That's not a neo-Nazi stance. I'm no Nazi, never have been and never could be. That is exactly why the DISHONOUBLE AGGRESSIVE CONDUCT of guys like Pilsudski, the Jew-hating Dmowski, the arrogant studity of Josef Beck and the miltary incompetence of the buffoon Rysz-Smigly combine to be POLISH NAZI'S as an example for Hitler who came along and watched them. Do you understand that perspective Fly? TRUELY the same basic outlook.. RACIST and AGGRESSIVE for LEBENSRAUM, POLISH NAZIS.
польша своей русофобской политикой заслужила это.
kurtanich13 7 months ago
@kurtanich13
Россия заработeт более, уже заработала, не должна даже существовать.
Как оха междынародной грабитель.
Я знаю в чем дело. Моя фамилия четыре сот лет жула там, где тепер Белопусь.
Так и я русофоб. Дла меня вор значит вор всегда.
stefanbokser 5 months ago
Good God this is horrible!
Terribly painful to watch!!!
KillBaddBugz 7 months ago
do u want to tell me that there weren't any Polish ppl in Volhynia, Eastern Galicia, Belarus? Those territories were (and are still) ethnic mixed and belonged to PL-LT Commonwealth. Russians & Georgians were almost absent there. Poles, Ukrainians, Belorussians, Jews... even Czechs and Armenians in Galicia. Russian perhaps 1-2%. so i still don't understand why u think bolshevik Russia had right to take non-Russian area. because Lloyd George wanted it?
Lattarnik 7 months ago
@Lattarnik independent Poland has never ever been "totalitarian power"! if Sanacja is recognized as a kind of totalitarianism it means Russia and similar government forms are totalitarian nowadays. that is total nonsense.
Lattarnik 7 months ago
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Did you not tell us in your other daily spams that Poland was insignificant? Well, now suddenly the Poles are significant and a BS artist like you hiSSto devotes his entire time trying to revise their history according to neo-Nazi fairy tales.
flyabroom 8 months ago
HiSSto, better tell us about the 1904 -1907 Herero and Namaqua German Genocides. Then tell us about WW1 too and how that happened.
Go ahead. You’re on YT pages every day anyway. While at it, don’t forget to tell us how you became a pilot, financier, nuclear physicist, Vietnam War correspondent, EU advisor, book(s) writer, neo-Nazi and a prolific SPAMMER, FRAUD and the all-in-one BS artist! Tell us!
flyabroom 8 months ago 5
@flyabroom I can't claim either "puclear physicist" or "financier" but I do have a (now inactive) pilots license with IFR specs, did do a two year stint in Vietnam in my late 20's, am an "economist" specializing in regional development economics with both governments and private sector clients operating in the EU and elsewhere. I've never claimed the EU organization as a client except for secondments, have authored books (3) with another at the editors, am NOT a neo-Nazi.
historatia 7 months ago
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flyabroom 8 months ago
ONLY a neo-Nazi jackass like hiSSto will attempt to equate the Polish War of Independence with the Nazi Germany’s invasions, the German Nazi destruction of Europe and intended genocide of the entire peoples like the Poles, most Slavs - including Russians, Jews, Gypsies, and the handicapped, homosexuals and the mentally ill, even children.
flyabroom 8 months ago 2
@flyabroom Only a fool like Fly would call an aggressive war on Lithuania, Russia and the Ukraine as the "Polish War of Independence. It WASN't. It was a naked aggressive NAZI-like war led by Pilsudski, Beck and Rydz-Smigly to reconstruct the mythological polish empire that really never was a "polish" empire to begin with.
historatia 7 months ago
@flyabroom You know Fly, when you can lay your hands on the slightest proof that German Nazi destruction included "intended genocide of entire peoples like the Poles, most Slavs - including Russians, Jews, Gypsies, and the handicapped, homosexuals and the mentally ill, even children" you should present it to the world, because you would have found the holy grail of some propagandists. It is this EXAGGERATION that identifies you as a pure FOOL.
historatia 7 months ago
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"THAT makes Pilsudski's Poland a rogue, aggressive nation because it BROKE these TERMS already in Feb, 1919. " NO, bolsheviks broke Treaty of Brest and crosses the line drown by it.
once again, KRESY WERE ETHNIC MIXED and no PL goverment would allow to give them under red terrorist reign.
Lattarnik 1 year ago
"gadał dziad do obrazu, a obraz ni razu"
Lattarnik 1 year ago
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Lattarnik 1 year ago
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Lattarnik 1 year ago
o-one suffered more in WW2 than the people of Poland who were squeezed between two aggressive states. Their resistance was truly magnificand and certainly earned the respect of everyone in the Uk where to this day, Poles are always made particularly welcome.
eddie123e 1 year ago
Germans & Austrians: civilized nations.
Quamacx 1 year ago
@Quamacx We could give the Turks to take the goddamn Vien in 1683
przemaser2 1 year ago
The kindly Germans YER RIGHT
mutley0777 1 year ago
Nazi scum
blockthehood 1 year ago
THE SMASHING OF POLAND WOULD'T HAVE HAPPENED IF STUPID POLISHES WOULD HAVE GIVEN BACK SUDETENLAND TO IT'S LEGITIMOUS OWNER: GERMANY...........DEUTSCHLAND! SIEG HEIL!
tuyocuyo 1 year ago
@tuyocuyo You've got your geography WRONG.
historatia 1 year ago
Hitler did not want war! He wanted to take Poland peacefully like he took Austria and Czechoslovakia. And that "great" Wehrmacht was in panic after 2 weeks of war against Poland and Germans begged Stalin to invade from east. Hitler,s state had been preparing for war since 1935 and he had better weapons than any other state in the world. And a big part of it became twisted scrap after September 1939.
Gerzaj17 1 year ago
@Gerzaj17 YOU ARE WRONG! HERR HITLER NEVER ASKED SATALIN TO INVADE POLAND!... THE WEHRMACHT SMASHED POLISH ARMY IN TWO WEEKS.
tuyocuyo 1 year ago
@Gerzaj17 You are truly misinformed. Hitler and Stalin had a pact before war in which Germany would take western Poland and Russia would take eastern Poland. Read about the Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty. Hitler wanted war. He was building armaments for years in defiance of the Versailles Treaty. Read your own notes, you are contradicting yourself.
niepokanana 1 year ago 6
@niepokanana You've misunderstood. I agree with you, but... Hitler wanted to conquer Russia. With or without Poland. He offered alliance to Poles against bolsheviks for Polish agreement to annex Gdańsk to 3rd Reich and exterritorial highway and railroad through Polish Pomerania. When that policy collapsed Hitler decided to destroy Poland and to make her west "allies" harmless. To do this he needed temporary peace with SU. So Poland didn't become the satellite state like Romania, Bulgaria.
Gerzaj17 1 year ago
@Gerzaj17 not to forget croatia the cruelest satellite state.
SmrtJugoslaviji 1 year ago
@niepokanana And please... Don't teach me the history of my country. :-) Better delete notes that idiot tuyocuyo who even doesn't know that Sudetenland has NEVER belonged to German state.
Gerzaj17 1 year ago 2
@Gerzaj17 it was a mistake you gay.. I meant Danzig.. not Sudetenland..would you foegive me you gay?
tuyocuyo 1 year ago
@tuyocuyo Sudetenland was in Czechoslovakia and Gdańsk in Poland.
krakowia88 1 year ago
@Gerzaj17 Following on with niepokanana said, the very idea of the soviet involvement came from Stalin! Why? Because in 1919-1921 Pilsudski's POLISH IMPERIALISTS invaded Russia, Ukraine and Lithuania and grabbed land that was NOT polish settled (google and find "Poland1937linguistic,jpg" map. So when Ribbentrop came, Stalin said "I want our the land back". Poland made Russia an enemy in 1919-1921, and paid the price in 1939 and again in 1944 when Russia REFUSED to help.
historatia 1 year ago
@Gerzaj17 Poles tend to forget that they made ENEMIES of ALL their neighbours with the massive violations of the Polish Versailles Treaty and the endless ethic cleaning of Lithuanians, Belorussians and Ukrainians from their ancient homelands, and many other "frictions" to try to grab full sovereignty of Danzig. The Poles also have major amounts of blood dripping of their hands from their politics from 1919 to 1939.
historatia 1 year ago
@Gerzaj17 Not so. During the Molotov-Ribbentrop meetings in Moscow it was Stalin who pulled out the map and said "I want back the land that Poland stole from Russia in 1919-1921" He drew the Curzon Line at which polish settlement stopped and said, "If you invade Poland from the west, we will follow you and invade from the east to take back our land. Agreed?" Ribbentrip went back to the embassy at 11:45 and phone Hitler. Hitler agreed to Stalin's suggestion. The deal was done !!! ...
historatia 1 year ago
@Gerzaj17 ... The original of the map with the pencil line Stalin drew was then signed and initialled by Stalin and Ribbentrop. It was found in the Ribbentrop papers in 1993 in Bavaria. It was the line that the Versailles conference had agreed to give to Poland, but the Poles got TOO GREEDY TOO FAST. Poland made enemies of everybody with its actions and paid the price. (Its still doing it even now in the EU!)
historatia 1 year ago
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The Poles survived an awful lot and are richer for it.
Polacy przeżyli bardzo dużo i są za to bogatsze.
______________________
Please see my tribute video:
Proszę zobaczyć moje tribute video: SPACER PO WARSZAWIE (THEY SURVIVED THEIR TYRANNIES!)
TheDustpile 1 year ago
That's why I hate the Germans have always tormented my country ... two world wars, crusaders, they tormented us from the Germans ever fuck!
UMC8 2 years ago 5
@UMC8 You mean teutonic knights, not crusaders ~~ Crusades couldn't take place in our country, as we have been baptised in 966 :)
olseneudezet 1 year ago
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I judged the Poles by their enemies. And I found it was an almost unfailing truth that their enemies were the enemies of magnanimity and manhood. If a man loved slavery, if he loved usury, if he loved terrorism and all the trampled mire of materialistic politics, I have always found that he added to these affections the passion of a hatred of Poland. She could be judged in the light of that hatred; and the judgment has proved to be right."
Gilbert Keith Chesterton
divustitus 2 years ago
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germany and polen have come to a normal neighborhood in this time ! polen don´t have want! it is not true that hitler and the germans have want this war the germans have all do that is not comes to this madness! after the war all was put in german shoes like after ww1 that is nothing new!
nachtschattenuser 2 years ago
@nachtschattenuser
Really? So why Germans allowed Hitler to start that war? Every German ˝Heiled˝ during II WW, but in1944-1945 whan Red Army swept all nazi crap from Eastern Europe they started to behave like fataity.
radled 2 years ago
Post-1945 Poland REALLY got "freed" by the so-called "Rokossowsky Plan".Where the Polish economy was forced to sell 1 dollar worth of goods to the USSR (for comparative purposes) for ten cents! That's called robbery
divustitus 2 years ago
urteilssicher, Unfortunately so, just like DDR/East Germany etc. Seems the Soviets enjoyed taking Berlin, but unfortunately SHitler wasn't at the Zoo but hiding in his bunker like a rat in a sewer. Of course Shitler also flooded the subway in Berlin killing many German civilians & trrops.
christof139 2 years ago
@christof139 That is American fiction. The Russian managed that by artillery shelling into the Spree River near the MuseumInsel. Don't tell BS Hollywood stories.
historatia 1 year ago
@historatia, Soviets managed what? What is 'Hollywood' fiction? The Polish counterattack at the Bzura River, the AK fighting the nazis & then the Soviets in Poland? I have known AK people. I think you are BS & stink like it.
christof139 1 year ago
@christof139 What I am referring to here is that the entire Soviet (Stalin) response, both with the invasion of Poland in 1939 and then NOT helping during the Warsaw uprising was based on the hatred of the Poles for the invasions of 1919-1922 by Pilsudski to grab land that was NOT Polish settled, and then the effort to brutally ethnically cleanse the Russians, Lithuanians and Ukrainians from their own land. Poland did in 1919-1939 what Hitler started to do in 1939. Poland was no Mother Teresa.
historatia 1 year ago
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Lattarnik 1 year ago
@christof139 Go google "Polish-Soviet War" and you will learn history that the Communists kept hidden from you.
historatia 1 year ago
@historatia as i've noticed Gerzaj17 is out. so let me answer ur ridiculous theses.
1. PL didn't attack Russia in 1919-21, no polish soldier entered Russian territory in that time. but bolsheviks & Denikin's army occupied large part of Ukraine. perhaps u don't know that but Ukraine is not Russian land and people was speaking the other language there. Belarus - the same.
2. PL didn't attack Lithuania but took undefended city of Wilno inhabited by Polish majority and Jewish minority.
Lattarnik 1 year ago
@historatia even today this region in Polish called Wileńszczyzna is Polish-language one. Polish army was welcome there by majority.
3. in April 1920 PL and our ally UKR (UKR leader Semen Petlyura Пeтлюрa) attacked bolsheviks. u probably don't know the fact that Polish intelligence could read bolshevik coded messages. it was clear they planned assault against PL, and Piłsudski knew this. PL & UKR were first. unforunetely PL was meneged to liberate UKR and sweep bolsheviks out.
Lattarnik 1 year ago
@historatia 4. the land in the east of Bug river was ethic mixed. cities was Polish-Jewish, many towns and villages too. show me ethic line between GER and Luxemburg. Curzon line was artificial. it was simply east Russia border after third participation of Poland. nothing more. and Versailles had nothing to Polish east borders bcause this conference concerned peace treaty between GER and entante, not PL-Russian matters, not Polish east border.
Lattarnik 1 year ago
@historatia 5. Ribbentrop-Mołotov pact. do u know first version drew GER-USSR border on Wisła/Vistula river? no? u wanted to tell us that part of Warsaw- Praga, Lublin, Zamość, Siedlce were Russian cities? more, Lwów / L'viv had never seen russian soldiers untill Soviet took it on September 12, 1939. NEVER!
6. about Lithuania. do you know Kowno / Kaunas the "temporary" capital of Lthuania was Polish-language city in that time?
Lattarnik 1 year ago
@Lattarnik Numbered in order of your questions...
1-1. You're absolutely full of polish propaganda, but its FALSE. Read the Lord Curzon report. If you google for either of two map files, "Poland1937linguistic.jpg" and "Bevoelkerungsverteilung_Ostmitteleuropa_um_1918.jpg" you will see clearlu the distribution of population by settlement. Or go read the Curzon Report for Versailles Conference.
historatia 1 year ago
@Lattarnik 1-2 In 1919 Pilsudski entered RUSSIAN territory that was under Russian sovereignty bases on the lifting of the Brest-Litovsk Treaty by the Allies with article 15 of the Armistice. Since when was White Russia not Russia. British diplomats in Warsaw expressed great concern. By 1922 45% of the "Polish State" claimed population was NOT Polish.
historatia 1 year ago
@Lattarnik
2. Vilnius was part of Czarist Russian Lithuania. Russia had sovereignty, Poland did NOT. The League of Nations using the Census data of 1890, the German Census of 1916, and after adjusting for Russian have left as the Germans came in, granted it to Lithuania and demanded that Pilsudski withdraw. He BROKE the Polish Versailled Treaty and REFUSED. Major Provocation.
historatia 1 year ago
@Lattarnik
3-1 Your story if "Polish Intelligence" and a planned attack is BOGUS. As of the Brest-Litovsk Treaty March 1918 Russia had largely disarmed and the Germans had taken the weaponry. In fact the German and Austrian trained Polish divisions that Pilsudski had transfered to him and he used in the aggessive assaults were in possession of much of the surrendered Russian weaponry. Only as of Nov 11, 1918 did the Soviets start to rearm.
historatia 1 year ago
@Lattarnik
3-2 However Within only 70 days of the WWI Armistice, Pilsudski struck hard, knowing Russia was very weak from its defeats. You can paint is as wars of 'liberation' but they were WARS of POLISH IMPERIALISM to grab land READ PILSUDSKI'S OWN SPEECHES. SHOW PROOF of your claim of Soviet plans to attack or WITHDRAW. You CAN"T.
historatia 1 year ago
@Lattarnik
3-3 Your claim of Soviet war plans on Poland are NOT credible. Lenin/Trotsky had other more important uses for their very fresh army in local revolts. I say your FABRICATING stories.
historatia 1 year ago
@Lattarnik 4. Yes "ethnic mixed, but NOT majority Polish, or even close to it. Curzon Line was NOT ARTIFICIAL. You're making up more stories by denying TRUTH that doesn't fit your story. The Curzon and Foch lines BOTH came from Versailles work. The Armistice and Wilsons 14 points say Poland gets land with clear predominance of Polish settlement and institutions. NOT what they can GRAB with WAR.
historatia 1 year ago
@Lattarnik 5-1. You're making up complete Fiction about the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact. We have the details in both Russian and German accounts and they agree completely! There was NO version other Stalin's first map drawn by Vischynski. Ribbentrop was surprised by Stalin's request. He did NOT negotiate the line (close to Curzon line). He left and called Hitler by phone at midnight. Hitler was surprised and said "Yes" after a few minutes.
historatia 1 year ago
@Lattarnik
5-2. All of the cities were multi-ethnic to a considerable degree. Lwow, also known as Lviv, and Lemburg for example. Poles eren't even the largest ethnic group. The Jews were. The area around it was by far majority Ukrainian. I never said Lublin, Zamosc or Siedice was not Polish settled. Neither did the Curzon line nor did the Vichinsky line. Your point?
historatia 1 year ago
@Lattarnik 6. I have no evidence of the numbers, but I do know that quite early in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth days the Lithuanians began to resent the efforts to polonize, especially because of the polish russophobia. From the beginning as even now, the Polish desire to dominate the Lithuanians is strong. Kaunus became the temporary capital because of Polish aggression. That is a historical fact.
historatia 1 year ago
@historatia
it is difficult to discuss with man who is denying facts.
there was no planned polonization of eastern nation in Commonwealth. in 17 century lannguage of dokuments in Gdańsk & Toruń was low German, szlachta (gentry) in Ukraine use ruthenian (ukrainian) on sejmik assemblies, Jews had their tax, cultural and judicial self-government. Polonization were voluntary, and its largest influences took place after paricipations of Commonwealth. no state policy to polonize.
Lattarnik 1 year ago
@Lattarnik Even your most polished-biased maps show that the area was NOT predominantly Polish settled with predominantly Polish culture/instititutions. For you to DENY Polonization efforst means you have NEVER looked the Polish Ministry Files (Skladkowski as the last Minister, copies to Beck's files) that show MONTHYLY REPORTS on the ethnic cleansing and polonization. (closing of Ukrainian language schools, in the east. destruction of Eastern Church congregations.Its all there...
historatia 1 year ago
@Lattarnik Did you go to school to be fed this incredible "whitewash" of the Polish behaviour in the 1919-1939 period? Why would Josef Beck in 1934 even bother to FORMALLY rescind the MINORITY RIGHTS under the Polish Versailles Treaty? "No state policy to polonize?" Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of Canadian Ukrainians whose shattered families went to Canada because of Polish ethnic cleansing. And your FACTS aren't FACTS in the first place! You write "make-believe".
historatia 1 year ago
@Lattarnik Of the added 2.5 million less than 500,000 or 20% were Polish. Even if you double that for population exchange, that means that Polish population in the Kresy in 1918 -- BEFORE THE POLISH IN-MIGRATION FLOOD was 12% to 16% and certainly not more than 25% ... about the estimates you can calculate from the Curzon Report analysis.
historatia 1 year ago
@historatia
probably u don't know Polish, u can't read Polish documents, but...yes, i know, Polish document are biased & manipulated, German or Swiss are always correct and show truth. ok, nevermind. polish goverment policy for nationalities was not "worse" than in other European countries, there was organized settlement for veterans and former soldiers in Kresy, but calling it ethnic cleansing is silly. of course u've "forgot" to mention ukr nationalistic terrorists and bolshevik saboteurs...
Lattarnik 1 year ago
@Lattarnik I know all about Ukrainians in in Lemburg too. The fascinating thing is that after a while the Ukrainians, like the Germans own up to the TRUTH of it. The POLES NEVER admit that they did anything except for a "noble" purpose to help others, a regular Mother Teresa country. I have colleagues who read Polish (are Polish) I read German, French, English and struggle with Russian. I have about 280 Polish documents with official translations, into English, French, German (1916 to 1942).
historatia 1 year ago
@historatia German "legalism" is funny. grabbed from Soviets in 1919-21... USSR existed 1922-1991. bolshevik government wasn't recognised by any other state in 1919. why don't u mension that the same land was stolen by Tsarist Russia, by Prussian Kingdom and by Austrian Empire after three patitions of PL-LT commonwealth?
Galicia have been part of PL Kingdom since 40s of 14. century. Land of Polish state. Grand Duchy included Belarus and Lithuania.
Lattarnik 1 year ago
@Lattarnik I didn't because the church records show that EVEN THEN, the land was settled by people who were NOT Poles. Poles have been led to believe that if some Polish noble farted some place, the land he farted on his polish forever. Its not. The land belongs to those how developed, put in the capital, made it productive. It was not automatically the right of some Polish landowner to come and TAKE it, and VILNIUS by that definition should NEVER have been attacked by Poland like it was.
historatia 1 year ago
@Lattarnik Even BEFORE 1795 Galicia was NOT predominently Polish settled. Only Polish researchers try to find some way to support the Polish Lebensraum attacks. NOT ALL the land of the Commonwealth was settled by Poles. Got that now. Go to Geneva, look at the copied letters (early us of document copying with cameras for the Inquiries units of the Versailles process).
historatia 1 year ago
@Lattarnik Calling what happened in Galicia ethnic cleansing is a mild term for it. Poles STILL don't own up to the government (Josef Beck and Skladkowski- authorized) police and terrorist activities with horrific murders or Ukranians. (for example)
historatia 1 year ago
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@historatia Russia-Moscovia (citation) "MILITARILY GRABBED" that land. Minsk/Мінск, Witebsk/Віцебск, Połock/Полацк have never been Russian cities. "legalism" tells us tsaritsa Yekaterina stole them. if u're going to say that Lithuanians have stroger right to the land, u should know that Constitution of May 3, 1791 abolished distinction between PL Kingdom & Grand Duchy. so we had the same rights to this land as LT.
Lattarnik 1 year ago
@historatia
probably u don't know Polish, u can't read Polish documents, but...yes, i know, Polish document are biased & manipulated, German or Swiss are always correct and show truth. ok, nevermind. polish goverment policy for nationalities was not "worse" than in other European countries, there was organized settlement for veterans and former soldiers in Kresy, but calling it ethnic cleansing is silly. of course u've "forgot" to mention ukr nationalistic terrorists and bolshevik saboteurs...
Lattarnik 1 year ago
@historatia ... who were sowing urest in the East. ok, a citation: "it was the Polish Aggression to steal Soviet land (Belarus, Lithuania, Ukraine) that had STALIN SUGGEST to Hitler that he would TAKE THE SOVIET LAND LOST IN 1919-1921 TO POLISH AGGRESSION BACK INTO THE SOVIET UNION." your words. Soviet land, yes? Polish aggression? BACK INTO SOVIET UNION???
U ARE SPREADING LIES & u do this CONSCIOUSLY!
PEOPLE! LEARN HISTORY READING GOOD BOOKS, NOT FROM GUYS LIKE USER "historatia"!
Lattarnik 1 year ago
@Lattarnik Yes, my words, and I stick by them. Only in the Polish mythology were those "Polish". With the Versailles Treaties there were 52 Commissions of inquiry. Their research collected Polish, Russian, Germanm Lithuanian documents, land ownership books, archives -- everything. Those lands were NOT Polish, NOT given to Poland, but MILITARILY GRABBED from the Soviets as successors of the Czarist Russia. i am NOT spreading lies but TRUTH .. Consciously.
historatia 1 year ago
@Lattarnik Do you DENY that Pilsudski took the German and Austrian trained forces of 700,000 that had defeated Russia/Soviets in 1917 and their surrendered arms and in February 1919 immediately attacked these lands that were east of the Curzon Line? Do you DENY IT. ... YES or NO... Do you deny that these were White Russian settled lands for centuries and when Catherine the Great was in power ? YES or NO ... Pilsudsky/Beck/Rydz did just like Hitler! YES or NO? Please answer..
historatia 1 year ago
@historatia PL hadn't "noble" purposes, but she cared of her interests. why should PL have submitted to interests of unrecognised state using terror against their people & not to realize her own ones? Soviets was'n successors of Tsarist Russian they were tsar killers. Lenin had stated partitions of PL-LT Commonwealth illegal and sent Red Army to west to cross the pre-partition border.
once again, Versailles concerned Germany - Entante relationships, not PL eastern border.
Lattarnik 1 year ago
@Lattarnik Poland as a "presumptive state" existied at the moment of the Armistice with the attributed describing it as the lands in which the THEN 1918 conditions of settlement predominance were satisfied. Go read the words. It didn't say --"Whatever was once in the Commonwealth as it existed in 1567" or "Wherever Mieszko I once farted between 970 and 985."The ONLY recognized authority given to the "non-state" Polish interests was thus laid out in principle based on settlement at that time.
historatia 1 year ago
@Lattarnik TO AVOID DISPUTES and WAR the Versailles Treaty set out the PRINCIPLE of self-determination. You are now saying that that PRINCIPLE held ONLY for the borders of Germany and that is WRONG! On the basis of the Armistice Poland, even without al borders drawn on maps was RESTRICTED to the the THEN POLISH SETTLED areas, so ANY MILITARY CHARGE on others not predominantly Polish settled lands was AGGRESSION. Pilsuidski led FIVE "Lebensraum" "OSTSIEDLUNG" wars of aggression.
historatia 1 year ago
@Lattarnik Show me a reference where it states "Poland had the authority to immediately drive its forces eastward onto the lands of other people and force them from their homes, and take sovereignty over their lands" Show me.... Poland isn't Israel, which bases its claim on some dubious mythology in some old bible. The Poles are mentioned in the any such old testament, so stop trying to put it there, or construct false data. POLISH LEADERSHIP WAS VIOLENT AND BASICALLY CRIMINAL IN 1919.
historatia 1 year ago
@Lattarnik The settlement, maps, even those produced by responsible Polish demographers/geographers, show that these lands were NOT settled by Poles, and thus it was clear that Poland had to be constituted out of the Polish settled lands PLUS the connection to the Baltic, NOTHING MORE.
historatia 1 year ago
@historatia the line what was called "Curzon Line" later was known as the Russian western border after 3rd Partition. it wasn't ethnic line. so, using your "legalism" the first little battles between Polish and bolshevik troops took place inside Polish or Lthuanian or Belarussian borders (that 3 states had equal rights to that terrain).
Lattarnik 1 year ago
@Lattarnik Your are WRONG! in areas that are NOT part of a state except the last one. If that is to change, the PEOPLE (based on settlement) are Sovereign, NOT OTHER STATE not recognized by the PEOPLE. That is the very essence of "self-determination" so there was no "3 states had equal rights to that terrain". Precisely to STEAL that right to make their own choices from people who were settled there did the Poles go on a killing, murder, and raping rampage followed by the terror.
historatia 1 year ago
@Lattarnik Precisely because Poland feared that the settled people would CHOOSE for Lithuania/Russia/Lithuania did Poland strike to stop the decision being based on the RIGHTS of the PEOPLE. Poland conquered other people and then made up NONSENSE cover stories about "We saved Europe from Communist Beasts" an "Miedmorze, the Great Slavic Empire of the West". False propaganda to cover ugly polish conquest of other people. It was RIGHT that Stalin took it back and settled it.
historatia 1 year ago
@Lattarnik Curzon Line was based on studies of settlement, NOT the Russian border as of the third partition. I know that even now Poles claim that land. Those people have been there for a very long time and built up their land? Do Poles still claim to smell the farts of Mieszko or Konrad some other ancient Pole? Do you still advance your claims that Belarus is really Poland? Pilsudski claim Russia is only "east of the Volga". Go read his speeches and stop blathering nonsense.
historatia 1 year ago
@historatia To drive this into your head, Latternik, I will give you the direct quotes from the Wilson's 14 points about Poland;
13. An independent Polish state should be erected which should include the territories inhabited by indisputably Polish populations, which should be assured a free and secure access to the sea, and whose political and economic independence and territorial integrity should be guaranteed by international covenant.
NOTE the following:
historatia 1 year ago
@historatia
(a) The 14 points say "indisputably Polish populations" and not 'whereever a few poles live amongst Lithuaniand Russans, Germans, etc.
(b) The access to the sea,
(c) "territorial integrity to be guaranteed by international covenant" which means that the Versailles nations at the League of Nation have to ACCEPT AND AGREE to the boundaries.
THAT makes Pilsudski's Poland a rogue, aggressive nation because it BROKE these TERMS already in Feb, 1919.
historatia 1 year ago
@historatia i see u are representing Soviet point of view, funny.
Soviet Russia was ILLEGAL state. hords of red bandits.
i see, that PL should ask for permission to stay alive, then she would be cool. PL-LT was ILLEGALLY patitioned, Prussians robbed Wawel, stole regalia, and for you that was correct. when after years we want to take our own, foreigners say: u mustn't. Poles were majority in Wilno, Kowno, Lwów, Grodno in Wilno Region, Grodno Region. even today after post-ww II ethnic cleansing..
Lattarnik 1 year ago
@Lattarnik Not true. In 1942 the Poles were 42% of the Wilno Region. By 1959 the were down to 20%. Poland was NOT illegally partitioned. It was a "State" that ceased to exist because it political instutions failed completely. The part that went with Prussian had 22 seats in the Prussian legislature where Polish was an official language. Poles were majority in Lwow ONLY AFTER TERRORIZING THE UKRAINIANS OUT, and by a false count.
historatia 1 year ago
@historatia Poles are majorities in the lands around Vilnius & Hrodna. and nor Poles neither Belorussians didn't want to be ruled by red terror.
English politicians thought they might dictate PL authorities what PL borders were legal. that kid of "legalism" was unaccepted for PL. Soviet Russia & Soviet Ukraine agreed to Polish eastern border line by signing Riga Treaty in 1921. in 1939 Stalin broke RT and pact of non-aggression pact signed in 1932. period.
Lattarnik 1 year ago
@Lattarnik The POLES did not get to decide what the Belorussians wanted or didn't want. That was THEIR business, Do you have the right to decide what Czechs and Slovaks want? NO. In Wisons 14 point/Versailles said, "... all questions affecting Russia as will secure the best and freest cooperation of the other nations of the world in obtaining for her an unhampered and unembarrassed opportunity for the independent determination of her own political development and national policy..."
historatia 1 year ago
@Lattarnik With Poland Versailles Treaty Poland accepted the Wilson 13th point that POLAND "...should include the territories inhabited by indisputably Polish populations, which should be assured a free and secure access to the sea, and whose political and economic independence and TERRITORIAL INTEGITY should be guaranteed by INTERNATIONAL COVENANT" For that COVENANT, the other nations had to agree so your are WRONG. Its in the Poland Treaty that re-created the Polish State !!!
historatia 1 year ago
@historatia You have NO arguments ONLY SLOGANS hiSSto. Your posts are like the omnipresent banners in the 3rd Reich repeating the same LIES over and over again, hoping that some naïve juveniles will believe in them. In each case, a common sense analysis or a short internet search exposes all of your utterances as neo-Nazi propaganda. You are all over the YT, looking for Polish sites and inserting your ignorant comments anywhere you can. You have a huge Poland complex, like all hitlerites do.
flyabroom 1 year ago
@historatia One of your typical MANIPULATIONS of facts goes like this: "In 1942 the Poles were 42% of the Wilno Region." Well, in 1942 both the Germans and Soviets had already occupied Wilno for 3-years and murdered, or deported to death camps or Syberia majority of the Poles from there.
flyabroom 1 year ago
@flyabroom Absolute rubbish Fly, absolute Rubbish. In fact, I will QUOTE you the comments on wiki.
In December 1939, shortly after their take-over of the area, the Lithuanian authorities organized a new census in the area. However, the census is often criticized by Polish statisticians, as skewed, intending to prove the historical and moral rights of Lithuania to the disputed area, rather than to determine the factual composition"...
historatia 1 year ago
@flyabroom The May 1942 Census was shows that for Vilnius, of 209,729, the Polish population was 87.855, and the Russians (after many Russians had fled) was only 4,090. Thus the ACTUAL polish % before the Russians fled (1941) and Germans were moved out (1939-1940) was a very much lower ... 30% to 35%. Interestingly, in direct contrast to allegations of fraudulent reporting, the Jews numbered 58,263 and the Lithuanians 51,111. ...
historatia 1 year ago
@historatia Only a hitlerite would quote a German 1942 census. Between 1939 and 1941 Wilno population INCREASED by 60 thousand (28%), while Polish population was being deported from the city. Who do you think was carted in to the city at that time???
flyabroom 1 year ago
@historatia A December 09, 1931 Census reveals that Poles made up 65.9% of the total Vilnius population (128.600 inhabitants), Jews 28% (54.600 inhabitants), Russians 3,8% (7.400 inhabitants), Belarusians 0.9% (1.700 inhabitants), Lithuanians 0.8% (1.579 inhabitants), Germans 0.3% (600 inhabitants), Ukrainians 0.1% (200 inhabitants), others 0.2% (approx. 400 inhabitants). Between 1931 and 1939 population changed little (~10 thousand), making it the most dredible Census.
flyabroom 1 year ago
@flyabroom The same German/Lithuanian census is often criticized because in the totals for the Vilnius REGION the Census (that showed 52,263 Jews in the City) showed No Jews in the REGION. It turns out that the critics mis-understood the german words "ohne Juden" (without Jews) in that table but reported them elsewhere, because in the rural and small towns many had fled, making a count difficult. The estimate was added on a subsequent table.
historatia 1 year ago
@flyabroom I'm glad you managed to find a place to enter the words "murdered" and ascribed that action to the Germans and Soviets. The Soviets, of course, on taking the area back made claims that the Poles had "murdered" and forced into Lithuania (as it existed from 1921 to 1939) and Russia, tens of thousands of Lithuanians and Russians and many Germans into East Prussia as well. Nice poetic touch. Did you not know that every Pilsudski soldier was a "murderer"? Learn something every day?
historatia 1 year ago
@historatia Did you read the 1931 census I gave you to read ,or are you blind?
flyabroom 1 year ago
@flyabroom 1. As you know, the phony census that the Poles did in Galicia earlier came back to haunt them when the Lord Curzon report was produced. the maps and the mountains of data (church birth records, hospital records etc, are all in Geneva. Three of the 52 commissions of inquiry for Versailles dealt extensively with this stuff. 2. Your ignorance of the war is showing.
historatia 1 year ago
@historatia Are you playing an imbecile and being ridiculed, or are you one? Lord Curzon died on 20 March 1925. The Census I quoted is from 1931.
flyabroom 1 year ago
@flyabroom There is no evidence that the Russians as of October 1939 murderd Poles. Nor in the other Czarist areas that Stalin took back is there evidence of major civilian murders. ( In Russian lore Katyn military killings (three sets) was "payback" for Pilsudski's rampages in 1919-1921 (including the slaughters in his camps of Russian officers, etc etc etc).
historatia 1 year ago
@historatia There is plenty of undeniable evidence that Soviets (not necessarily Russians) murdered Poles by the thousands even much before 1939, and you know it.
flyabroom 1 year ago
@flyabroom In the ethnic cleansing wars it happened both ways. The only issue is who started it, and it was Pilsudski and then when it came to the terror, Josef Beck showed no hesitation. Last one was of a long list Sladkowski
historatia 1 year ago
@historatia Define "ethnic cleansing."
flyabroom 1 year ago
@historatia Provide a link to this data ... . Besides, what kind of an option for a Pole was to become a Soviet citizen? These were Polish citizens and ethnic Poles. Most Poles from that area were loaded on trains and shipped off to Siberia. Many able bodied men were considered dangerous to the Soviet state and murdered. Because of this treatment, many others became Polish independence fighters of the AK, NSZ, etc.
flyabroom 1 year ago
@flyabroom Rubbish. They were given the options to sign or get out. Your playing the "virtuous victimized little girl" role again Fly... Its nonsense. Such claims. Its fed to you with your mother's milk... ALWAYS others are unfair to Poles! Poles are NEVER unfair to anybody. Poles are lily white. Its YOUR mythology, but nobody believes it. Poles didn't Polonize? Evey Pole who died was "murdered"? Every Soviet Soldier as a "murderer", but Polish soldiers? heroes who never slaughtered. Bunk!
historatia 1 year ago
@historatia You represent the "Nazi mysticism" trend where Germans were only "provoked" to do genocide. This line of defense did not work at Nurenberg, and it won't work now.
flyabroom 1 year ago
@flyabroom More nonsense. In early December 1941 the US embassy in Berlin, and many of their consulates were still open and operating, and American business was still engaged. The genocide began in 1942 after Hitler decided that it wast the American Jews who had profited by having the Americans build up the Russian forces with MASSIVE help while theoretically staying out of the war with Germany. He decided to take revenge on "the Jews". I've never said it was 'provoked'.
historatia 1 year ago
@historatia "1921 (including the slaughters in his camps of Russian officers...)" You just can't stop lying, can you? In 1921, it was the Polish officers being murdered by the Soviets in the Soviet camps for the Polish POWs.
flyabroom 1 year ago
@flyabroom What, Pilsudski's 728,000 aggression army didn't take prisoners? Never had prison camps? Never starved people, always treated them fairly? No prisoner executions? All Polish fairy tales Fly. Poles used horrible terror methods. You have such an idealized view of Poles Fly. It's all propaganda MYTH Fly..
historatia 1 year ago
@historatia Define "ethnic cleansing" and Polish "terror methods" and stop playing a naive here.
flyabroom 1 year ago
@flyabroom OK Fly.. Now I have a LIST of about 17 points that answer your question I better get started.
1. After Treaty of Riga ..."approximately one third of the new state's population was non-Catholic, including a large number of Russian Jews who immigrated to Poland following a wave of Ukrainian pogroms which continued until 1921. " We'll start there..
historatia 1 year ago
@flyabroom
2. "Dmowski and Grabski (minister of religion and education) saw the solution of the "minorities problem" in imposing "Polish values" (Polish language and the Catholic Church) on the minorities to achieve "national assimilation",... Dmowski, a strong proponent of Polonization, policies ... were implemented. "Wherever we can multiply our forces and our civilizational efforts, absorbing other elements, no law can prohibit us from doing so, as such actions are our duty."
historatia 1 year ago
@flyabroom
3. Stanisław Grabski, Polish Minister for Religion and Public Education in 1923 and 1925–1926, wrote that "Poland may be preserved only as a state of Polish people. If it were a state of Poles, Jews, Germans, Rusyns, Belarusians, Lithuanians, Russians, it would lose its independence again"; and that "it is impossible to make a nation out of those who have no 'national self-identification,'.
historatia 1 year ago
@flyabroom
4. Grabski also said that the aim of Polish policy should be "the transformation of the Commonwealth into Polish ethnic territory." Some officials DENIED THE EXISTENCE OF THE UKRAINIAN AND BELARUSIAN NATIONS...A law ... 1924 banned usage of any language but Polish in governmental paperwork... state schools could be ONLY POLISH LANGUAGE...Kresy Wschodnie, "schools can become an instrument of the cultural development only if Polish teachers will work there".
historatia 1 year ago
@flyabroom
5. ".the Jewish minority was excluded from this sector of the economy... facing acute shortage of engineers, the responsible authorities preferred to leave positions vacant than fill them with Jewish experts. Jews were also excluded from local administrations. In Lublin, where Jews made up about 40% of the population, only 2.6% of municipal workers were Jews; in Warsaw 16% of the Poles, and only 0.8% of Jews, were employed in the state or public sectors.
historatia 1 year ago
@flyabroom
6." Efforts to Polonize the economy also affected Jews employed in the private sector. Boycotts of Jewish businesses were instigated by National-Democratic groups such as the League of the Green Band."
historatia 1 year ago
@flyabroom 7. The territories that after WWII became the Soviet Western Belarus, western Ukraine and the Vilnius region, were incorporated into interwar Poland in 1921 at the Treaty of Riga in which the Polish eastern frontiers had been first defined following the Polish–Soviet War of 1919–1921... POLAND REJECTED ITS INTERNATIONAL OBLIGATIONS TO GRANT AUTONOMY TO EASTERN GALICIA, even though the AGREEMENT WITH THE ENTENTE excluded [it]..
historatia 1 year ago
@flyabroom 8. "..the Ukrainian GGC attained a strong Ukrainian character, and the Polish authorities sought to weaken it. In 1924, following a North America and western Europe visit...the HEAD OF THE UGCC was...DENIED REENTRY TO LVIV for a considerable..time. Polish priests ...bishops began ... missionary work among Eastern Rite faithful,...ADMINSTRATIVE RESTRICTIONS WERE PLACED ON THE UKRAINIAN GREEK CATHOLIC CHURCH.
historatia 1 year ago
@flyabroom
9. ... Any accusation was strong enough for a PARTICULAR CHURCH TO BE CONFISCATED and HANDED OVER TO THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. The goal so-called "revindication campaigns".. 190 Orthodox churches destroyed .. 150 more were forcibly transformed into ROMAN Catholic ... HEAD of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, Andrei Sheptytsky... these acts would "destroy in the souls of our non-united Orthodox brothers the very thought of any possible reunion."
historatia 1 year ago
@flyabroom
10. "The land reform designed to FAVOUR THE POLES in mostly Ukrainian populated Volhynia, the agricultural territory where the land question was especially severe, brought the alienation from the Polish state of even the Orthodox Volhynian population who tended to be much less radical than the Greek Catholic Galicians."
historatia 1 year ago
@flyabroom
11. "Ukrainian historian Mykhailo Hrushevsky, noted negative influence of Polish policies on the Ukrainian culture: "the four centuries of Polish rule had left particularly destructive effects (...) economic and cultural backwardness in Galicia was the main "legacy of historical Poland, which assiduously skimmed everything that could be considered the cream of the nation, leaving it in a state of oppression and helplessness"."
historatia 1 year ago
@flyabroom 12. During the interwar period of the 20th century (1920–1939), Lithuanian-Polish relations ...mutual enmity. ..conflict over the city of Vilnius, and the Polish-Lithuanian War, both governments - in the era of nationalism .. - TREATED THEIR RESPECTIVE MINORITIES HARSHLY. In 1920, after the staged mutiny of Lucjan Żeligowski, Lithuanian cultural activities in Polish controlled territories were limited and the CLOSURE OF LITHUANIAN newspapers and the ARREST of ... editors.
historatia 1 year ago
@flyabroom
13. Editor.. "Mykolas Biržiška was accused of state treason and SENTENCED TO DEATH ... and only the direct intervention by the League of Nations saved him from being executed. He was one of 32 Lithuanian and Belarussian cultural activists formally expelled from Vilnius on September 20, 1922 and deported to Lithuania. In 1927, as tensions between Lithuania and Poland increased, 48 additional LITHUANIAN SCHOOLS WERE CLOSED.
historatia 1 year ago
@flyabroom
14. "Following Piłsudski's death ...Lithuanian minority ...became an object of Polonisation policies with GREATER INTENSITY. 266 Lithuanian schools were closed after 1936 and almost all Lithuanian organizations were banned. Further Polonisation ensued as the government encouraged settlement of Polish army veterans in the disputed regions. ... 400 Lithuanian reading rooms and libraries were closed in Poland between 1936 and 1938."
historatia 1 year ago
@flyabroom
15. KRESY Polonization policy by Poland in Western Belarus (1921–1939) involved: * Political terror, * suppression of Belarusian language and culture,* repressions among population of Western Belarus including Jewish population, * closure of Belarusian Orthodox churches,* policy of enforced Catholicization, * violations of election rights based on falsification of the population census,
historatia 1 year ago
@flyabroom 16. * suppression of mass media on Belarusian language, * confiscation and redistribution of the land to the landlords of Polish nationality, * internment of prominent Belarusian intellectuals and leaders in Bereza Kartuska, * forcing migration of Belarusians from Western Belarus
historatia 1 year ago
@flyabroom OK Fly.. i have LOTS more.. but that will do for a Start.. NONE of the words are mine.... All of that constitutes ethnic cleansing not only in what was legitmately Poland but also what was NOT. (Disobeying the very Entente that gaver Poland Statehood... and EVERY ACT A DIRECT BETRAYAL OF POLAND'S OBLIGATION UNDER THE VERY POLISH VERSAILLES TREATY THAT GAVE IT STATEHOOD. Poland betrayed its founding Treaty even before it signed it. .. Now go to "1" and study it carefully.
historatia 1 year ago
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flyabroom 1 year ago
@historatia In 1920s, the concept of “ethnic cleansing” did not exist. It was coined only in the early 1990s. In the interwar period, the Polish attempt at integration and “friendlization” of minorities, cannot be analyzed without the context of still recent at the time programs of forced Germanization and Russification of the Polish population, which after the partitions of Poland was implemented FIRST and for an extended period of time. Poles were then countering the effects of that.
flyabroom 1 year ago
@historatia The Polish integration program was not always well conceived, but it was NOT “ethnic cleansing.” Between 1919 and 1939 (20 years of interwar period), Poland was still in the making. She looked for ways to peacefully integrate (NOT EXPELL) even the hostile elements of some minorities. Anti-Polish violence was sometimes met with violence or incarceration, but this was policing! A much greater effort was placed on winning the trust of all Polish citizens.
flyabroom 1 year ago
@historatia Prior to and after restoration of Poland in 1918, Poles were the subject of brutal “ethnic cleansing,” which involved violent removal of Poles from Poland by both occupying powers. In the Soviet Union of the interwar period, Poles were being killed or shipped off to Siberian Gulags for being Polish. This continued during and after WW2.
flyabroom 1 year ago
@historatia During WW2, German “ethnic cleansing” of the Poles from Poland became wholesale genocide, as it “removed” the Poles into death camps to make room for Germans.
flyabroom 1 year ago
@historatia You are really digging deep into the interwar period, because that’s when Germany lost some of its valued Polish “possessions.” You DESPERATELY want to show that Poles were no better than Germans, to undermine the higher moral ground of the Poles. If this is all you can show for your 20 years of digging then you have failed miserably. You see how hard you have to dig for the minute scraps against the Poles, while it is obvious to everyone what the German Nazis and Soviets did?
flyabroom 1 year ago
@historatia Arguing with you is becoming totally pointless, like it was with Goebbels, because you’re dishonest to the core in your history manipulations and one-sided views.
flyabroom 1 year ago
@flyabroom Fly. You are correct that YOU "arguing" with me is entirely pointless . You may not have noticed, but NOT ONE of the points I put together originates with me. They are all found on ONE wiki that does a detailed history with complete footnoted sourcing. Its NOT ME you're 'arguing' with, its be best historical record analysis that exists, and there is plenty more where that came from. That record is noe comprised of minute "scraps" and it wasn't hard digging.
historatia 1 year ago
@flyabroom You want only to believe things like the FICTION of "moral highground" of Poles, and the MYTHOLOGY that Polish ethnic cleansing actions were actions of "FRIENDIZATION" and "PEACEFUL INTEGRATION" when the record compiled by historians (many of whom are/were Poles) PROVED OTHERWISE. You deliberately choose the "fiction" over the "truth" and now coin new words for what did NOT happen. Even RIGHT NOW the same problems exist between Poland and Lithuania!
historatia 1 year ago
@flyabroom I gave you 16 points that not only DEFINE "ethnic cleansing"and the basis of it, but also POLISH examples, WHERE EVERY CASE HAD POLAND BREAKING THE VERY "POLISH TREATY" THAT ESTABLISHED IT AT VERSAILLES in which minority rights were first codified for use in other trieaties. NOW FLY you will NOT be allowed to wipe it away with your preferred belief. PROVE THAT WHAT IS SUMMARIZED FROM HISTORICAL SOURCES IS NOT TRUE OR JUST ADMIT IT .. AND SAY SO..
historatia 1 year ago
@flyabroom Your "ad hominum" attack on me, by falsifying my motives is improper. I am NOT anti-Polish, nor "pro-German" and I have NOT failed. My interest was (and is) to UNDERSTAND, through the benefit of a plausibe -- based on TRUTH -- explanation of just why and how WAR was re-ignited in 1939, within the context of the fuller story. Slowly the details of it all have come together. Polish imperialism, combined with the failure of Polish strategies, made an important contribution.
historatia 1 year ago
@flyabroom I think it sad that so many Poles root around the dusty mythological history as they imagine it for the inspiration for their future. Poland will either quietly own up their own past and move forward with western Europe or will be left behind. Already the Russians, are moving in synch with the EU towards a future that so many Poles wish to isolate themselves from in favour of regurgitating their falsified view of the past. So go chew the cud of your mythology (Polish chewing gum).
historatia 1 year ago
@historatia What you present as "ethnic cleansing" in the 1920s-1930s, when the concept did NOT EXIST, was then and is even today a fact in many different places around the world. What you gave as examples of "Polish ethnic cleansing" had been practiced in a substantially harsher form for over a hundred years before on the Poles. You take events OUT of context in a country being reborn from a hundred year old slavery, without taking this into account, and insert it into today's standards.
flyabroom 1 year ago
@flyabroom What's more that "hundred years of slavery" wasn't. The Poles has 24 seats in the Prussian house, some 'slavery'. You use all the "buzzwords" (like all Soviet and Nazi soldiers are 'murderers') of the propagandist. Nothing I've done takes anything out of context. The historical fact is that the Polish state COLLAPSE FROM ITS INTERNAL PROBLEMS IN THE LATE 1700'S. Accept it. All reputable Polish historians do!
historatia 1 year ago
@historatia "Nothing I've done takes anything out of context." ??? Have you seen a definiton of "double standard" and then do you ever read your own posts? EVERYTHING you pointed out in the last few posts against the Poles rakes of DOUBLE STANDARD !!!
flyabroom 1 year ago
@flyabroom Actually I do know what a double standard is. For example, calling Hitler's move into Poland "aggression", and then REFUSING to calling Pilsdudski's move into Lithuania, White Russia and Eastern Galicia as aggression. Another example: When Poles do terror on Ukrainians by burning churces and "murdering" them you call if "friendify" or some stupid term, but when Germans do it to Poles, that is 'ethnic cleansing. That is a double standard....
historatia 1 year ago
@flyabroom And when the Poles take churches from the UGCC and give them to the Roman Church that is NOT a Kulturkampf in your view, whereas when the Prussians seek to reduce the role of the Roman Church in Prussia well now that IS a "Kulturkampf". That is a double standard. Just who are you to be saying that I don't know what a double standard is? You're a little of the wall there Fly (but then I guess flies are often on the wall!)
historatia 1 year ago
@historatia I said before that "the Polish integration program was not always well conceived, but it was NOT “ethnic cleansing".” What Nazi Germans did to the Poles was genocide! Can't equate the two.
flyabroom 1 year ago
@historatia "Poland has no recognizable "honour", just a tawdry reputation as a "little country" acting foolishly and arrogantly..." This is so typical of your neo-Nazi stance!
flyabroom 1 year ago
@flyabroom Well let me repeat.. or you can go to various "opinion research" reports about the most admired and least admired countries of the world. In orde, USA, Germany, France, Britain,Japan, Canada, Italy, Switzerland, Austria, Sweded .... Poland? OFF the list entirely. Why would that be for such an HONOURABLE NATION... You should be FIRST shouldn't you??? (look for Nation Brand Index) It does the top 50. Where is Poland?
historatia 1 year ago
@flyabroom Even this vid on the destruction of Warsaw demonstrates why Poland is not highly thought of. To THROW AWAY so many lives for NOTHING is a war crime, and the Self-Appointed Polish Gov't in Exile ORDERED it. Those who died should be mourned, but it did the POLISH NATION a DISHONOUR.
historatia 1 year ago
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flyabroom 1 year ago
@historatia According to Nazis, any resistance to Nazis was a crime. That's the PRICE they exacted for opposing them. Not even after seeing all of the prior attrocities by the Germans during WW2 did anyone expect this genocidal, destructive and barbaric behavior. In Warsaw, Nazi Germany exceeded all of the conceivable expectations.
flyabroom 1 year ago
@flyabroom Any resistance to Nazi's? Not so my dear Fly. But anyone who, after Warsaw (or any place) attacked the German -- or anybody's army -- after a place was SURRENDERED was guilty of a a crime. Read the Hague Convention of 1898 for that. So the 'uprising' for example was a 'crime'. Civil protections don't hold for partisan forces (Hague Convention). Did you know that a good many cases were prosecuted of Wehrmacht men who robbed, raped or murdered. The Wehrmacht had a criminal police.
historatia 1 year ago
@flyabroom You, of course make baseless, unsubstantiated claims... Tell me what were the "conceivable expectations" and I LOVE your use of word in one sentence ... And you can attest to this can you? I have some pretty good estimates of the German activities in Poland separated out by the Wehrmacht forces, the SS forces, and the special SS , while I think you're just shooting your mouth off repeating what somebody told you? without real hard evidence or proof.
historatia 1 year ago
@flyabroom You know that Jaruzelksi admitted that the estimates of Polish civilian killed was hugely overestimated for propaganda purposes by the Communist Regime, and every knowledgable demography says the same thing. You know what exactly? And who prepared those "expectations"? Where they prepared in 1938 of 1939? You shot your mouth off on this so now put up OK?
historatia 1 year ago
@flyabroom That's not a neo-Nazi stance. I'm no Nazi, never have been and never could be. That is exactly why the DISHONOUBLE AGGRESSIVE CONDUCT of guys like Pilsudski, the Jew-hating Dmowski, the arrogant studity of Josef Beck and the miltary incompetence of the buffoon Rysz-Smigly combine to be POLISH NAZI'S as an example for Hitler who came along and watched them. Do you understand that perspective Fly? TRUELY the same basic outlook.. RACIST and AGGRESSIVE for LEBENSRAUM, POLISH NAZIS.