1981 Dream MIle - Ovett, Scott, Cram, Walker

[TheEctomorph]

Did you notice those two Scandinavian blonde lovelies who approached Mr Ovett shortly after the end of that race?  I wonder if either - or both - of them tried to pull him, that evening !

Steve (God luv him) may not have been blessed with the classic 'pretty boy' looks of Donny Osmond, David Cassidy - or even Sebastian Coe (!) - but one suspects that his 'pulling' power was not inconsiderable as a young man.

[TheEctomorph]

Yet another superb performance by the 'big O'. At that time (July 1981) the world's top two 1500 metres runners - or 'milers' - came from the same country: namely, Great Britain (of course). I earnestly hope that one day, that situation will arise again - i.e. the top two 1500 metres runners in the world will both be British. I won't hold my breath, though !

[kozmon0t]

Poor Steve Scott never won.

[dredandmrbears]

Geez John Walker had to have one of the longest competive careers at this distance.

[tommytempo1]

Ovett would have run 3:47 here had he taken it seriously over the last 100m. Remember watching this race in awe at Ovett. This was a race and not a time trial.

[tietajajoshua]

STATISTICS CALCULATION - from

BR-0 com/olympics htm

[Coltzan54]

i was glued to the tv through out this whole period in athletics. i used to be so proud of these boys, coe n ovett were as close as could be but may be coe had slightly the better kick down the home straite but cram was also a tryer and lets not forget peter elliot for his shear guts

[bootymanager]

Ovett could've easily broken the world record here. He was in awesome form. I think he was capable of 3.46. He would've destroyed Coe had he been here.

[deano27671]

Don't talk utter rubbish! Look at the closing stats of Coe and Ovett's Mile world records that year. Coe's finishing was far superior to Ovett's. In this race Ovett's last 440yds was 55.8. In Coe's WR, which was 2 secs faster, his last 440 was 55.4. Ovett's last 100m here was 13.9, Coe's was 13.1. Coe would have pulled away by at least 5m.

[franknjess]

Ovett was cruising in this race. For all the talk of finishing speed, Cram finished in 53.2 in his 3:46.3, the last 110 meters in 14.02. That's better than either Coe or Ovett in a faster race. And Coe went from on Cram's heels to 20 + meters back.

No one knows what would have happened if so and so raced so and so in such and such a race. In this particular race, Ovett was head and shoulders above the rest, doing just enough to win yet looking like a man amongst boys.

[deano27671]

I am a great admirer of Ovett and don't think he reached anywhere near his potential in terms of times. He was certainly capable of breaking 3:30 between '78 and '81 in the right conditions, which is worth 3:46. But then so was Coe. His solo 3:31 in 81 off 52.4 and 1:49 was worth something in the region of 3:28 when drafting and econonomy of pacing are taken into consideration.

[deano27671]

As for Cram, his last 100m in Oslo was 12.9, but in actual fact he was slowing down (as his penultimate 100m was 12.7). You also have to remember that the penultimate 440 (3rd lap) was slow at 58.6. So, yes he ran 12.9, but the last 800m was 1:51.3.

[deano27671]

Compare to Coe's LA 3:32 (worth c. 3:48 for Mile, probably faster as it was a championship race & his 7th in 9 days), in which his 12.7 last 100 was faster than Cram's corresponding time, and he was actually accelerating (previous 100m was 13.0), and this was in the context of a much faster last 800m (1:49.8). Coe's 3:32 in Zurich a couple of weeks later was faster still:- 12.5, off a 25.6 last 200, 53.0 400m and 1:51 last 800m.

You also have to look at the economy of pace for the entire race.

[deano27671]

Cram's first 2 laps were very even ~ 57.3, 57.2; (neither particularly fast). He then slowed to 58.6. It was a perfect set up for a very fast last lap. When Coe set his Mile record, the first lap was far too fast, 55.3 (3:41 pace)and then the 2nd lap dropped to 58.0. That's almost a 3 sec differential. So it was a lot less economical than Cram's run. His third was 58.6 (same as Cram), but then on the last lap he treated it as a race rather than a WR attempt, as Boit was right behind him.

[deano27671]

Coe chose to just win that race and waited until the last 100 to kick, as he knew that's all he needed to win the race. He said in his biography that had he gone for it at the bell he'd have run 3:46.5. Cram's run was awesome and it was easily his best run ever, but Coe produced runs equally as impressive when taken in context. Cram was probably at full stretch in Oslo, his tactic was always to go as hard as possible from 300 and hang on. Coe's was to wait till the last 100 and kick.

[deano27671]

To run 12.5 at the end of a 3:32 with last lap of 53.0 shows that there was a lot left & he could have run much faster on that last lap & in total, had he needed to. To compare Coe to Cram on that 1race in Oslo 85 is unfair. Coe was not at his best & had been out for a month with an injury. He was brave to run against Cram knowing what sort of form he was in after Nice. Cram wasn't at his best in LA either, but I doubt even Cram in his 85 Oslo form would have beaten Coe that day after 3 rounds.

[franknjess]

Cram slowed down in his WR mile because he was celebrating. Watch the video. He visibly lets up almost 20 meters out. Observers, including John Walker, concluded Cram had at least 3:44 in him that evening with better pacing. Cram looks barely extended after the race. He could possibly have put it out of reach until the arrival of El G had he had a fast paced race when at his peak. And don't forget, this was a tactical win for Cram. He had no thoughts of a record when he heard the time at 3/4's.

[deano27671]

Lol! Cram didn't slow. He punched the air about 2m from the finish but didn't noticeably slow. I don't doubt Cram was capable of 3:45 that year with perfect pacing. He actually had good pacing for the time he ran that night. His first 2 laps were almost identical at 57.2, 57.3. He then slowed to 58.6 on the third. But what most people don't grasp is that had that 3rd lap been 1.4 secs faster, then his last lap wouldn't have been 53.2. It would probably have been c. 54.2. Giving him 3:45.9.

[deano27671]

Walker is also quoted of Coe, that he thought he could run under 1:40 for 800 after watching his first WR in 79 (Coe & Ovett File P.89), and that he was the greatest 1500m runner he'd seen as of 1992. The likes of Mel Watman (AW editor) was saying Coe should have run 3:28 in Zurich back in 1980. Certainly anyone capable of 1:40 and 3:28 would have no problems running a 3:44 Mile. Would be interested to know the provenance of your Walker claim? ;0)

[franknjess]

I try, but I guess youtube won't allow me to post links. Go to sportsillustrated - dot - com and look up "A Midsummer Night's Dream Mile". Walker is quoted "Cram — and I hate to think of it— can run 3:44." Flynn, Scott, Coe and others remark that Cram set his record off a tactical race. Cram's remarks that Coe would be back, etc show that he never took Seb lightly.

[deano27671]

Will do. Cheers.

[oldjoe5]

@deano27671 . Coe had a length, very successful career and ran many serious miles. His best was 3:47 (world record). How can you possibly conclude "would have no problems running a 3:44 Mile"?

[deano27671]

@oldjoe5 No, he ran very few Mile races. Between end of 78 & June 83, he ran only 3 mile races; all were world records. He ran 800m far more often. In that same 78-83 period he ran only 6 1500m. One was a solo WR of 3:32, two were within 0.6 of the WR & 1 was the Olympic gold. In the same period at their peak, Cram ran 12 mile races & 20 1500m races between 83-86 & EL G ran 11 miles & 26 1500m races between 96-99. Who do you think had more opportunity of reaching their full potential?

[deano27671]

Coe had crap pacing on his few WR attempts. Whereas EL G had Ngeny pacing him through efficient laps of 55.6, 56.2, 56.1 & 55.2 , & Cram's fastest was with fairly economical 57.2, 57.3, 58.6 & then company pushing him to a 53.2 last lap. in Coe's last WR, not only were the first 3 laps very inconsistent- 55.2, 58.1, 58.6, but he was in front for the last 600m, and only kicked with 100m to go (13.1, compared to El G's corresponding 13.8) to beat Boit.

[deano27671]

He said himself that he treated it as a race rather than a record attempt when Boit was still with him at the bell. He also said had he gone all out at the bell with that 2:51.9 3/4 split (he'd asked for 2:48!) he'd have run 3:46.5 that day. Anyone running his fastest last 100m at the end in a WR run had a lot left. In addition, his 3:31.9 solo 1500 earlier that season in Stockholm was worth c. 3:27 (equivalent to a 3:44 mile) when 2 things are considered.

[deano27671]

1) He was given the most ridiculous pace ever, going through 400 in 52.4 (1k WR pace- the rabbit went 51.5!) & 800 in 1:49.1. There is a quite complex formula (see LetsRun message boards) that equates that to a 3:29.2 had the pace been equally distributed. 2) He ran the entire race in front ( after 200m the rabbit was more than 6m in front & dropped out at 800m), meaning he received no "drafting" effect at all.

[deano27671]

It's been calculated that you lose 1 sec per lap (400m) by being in front & receiving no drafting from a rabbit. Had he been given a rabbit right in front of him from 200m - 1300m (what most record setters get) that means he'd have been 2.75sec faster, bringing his time to c.3:27.5 (x 1.08 for Mile conversion & you get 3:44.1). And thats not even considering competition close behind to push him. Really, that 3:31 solo run is one of his most staggering runs, up there with his 1:41 800m.

[oldjoe5]

@deano27671. Come on Deano. His mile PR was 3:47 and he one time ran sub 3:30 in the 1500 -- for a mile equivalent of @ 3:46 something.  He was a 3:46 to 3:37 miler at his top. Not some imaginary 3:44. God, can't anyone ever admit when they are full of it?

[deano27671]

@oldjoe5 Sorry but I disagree. Having spoken to both Mel Watman & Peter Matthews (co-editors of Athletics International and esteemed statisticians for more than 40 years) on separate occasions, they both concurred that Coe was capable of 3:27-3:28 at his peak. Aouita is also on record as stating that Coe could run 3:27. Excuse me for holding more stock in their opinions than yours.

[deano27671]

If you knew your stuff then you'd know that when Coe set his pb of 3:29.77, not only was his first lap too fast at 54.0 (followed by a 2nd in 58.0, as opposed to Aouita's 57.2, 56.4 - far more economical), but at the bell when the pace maker slowed in front of him, Coe stumbled and had to run wide, costing him about half a second and the then WR of 3:29.46. This was written in T&FN at the time.

[deano27671]

Lets say he'd have run 3:29.3 (what eyewitnesses stated) despite uneconomical pacing. Thats a 3:46.0 Mile (using 1.08). With more even first 2 laps of 56 apiece, 3:45.5 is very reasonable. That was weeks before his 30th birthday in 86, when he was past his peak. Anyone with a bit of savvy can see its reasonable to suggest he could have run at least a second faster when at a peak, say in 81 or 84, with decent pacemaking.

[deano27671]

In addition he was ill for what should have been his best years in terms of age, in 1982 & 83, so he had no attempts then. Likewise, Cram & Aouita were also capable of at least 3:28 & 3:45. For God's sake, Cacho & Baala both ran 3:28 high fully extended when chasing EL G & co off almost metronome rabbits (albeit in an era when EPO couldn't be detected!?). Anyone with a brain can see that Coe, Cram & Aouita were far better and more gifted 1500m runners than those two!

[deano27671]

When Bayi front run 3:32.2 in '74, that was worth a 3:30 at least had he been paced and received drafting for the first 2 and a half laps. The pacing in the 90's & '00's became an art form. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but having studied split times for all the top Milers and seen most of the top 1500 races for the past 35 years +, I'm confident I know what I'm talking about, regardless of what other statisticians have to say; despite the fact that they agree with me.

[oldjoe5]

@deano27671 . Coe had a long and succesful career. His fastest mile was 3:47. His fastest 1500 was 3:29 -- worth maybe 3:46. It does not matter what people say he was capable of. His mile (equivalent) PR was, at best, 3:46. Not the 3:44 you suggest. You can have your own opinions. However, you cannot have your own facts

[deano27671]

@oldjoe5 Lol! I never stated it was a fact he ran 3:44, I said he was capable of it! In your world all athletes' pbs are their limit!? So when Moorcroft solo ran a 13:00 5k in 82 he wasn't capable of faster had he a pacemaker? Of course he was. He never ran under 13:10 again, but that doesn't mean he couldnt; the opportunity just never arose due to illness or not being in the right paced race again.

[deano27671]

Back in the 80's the importance was on winning unlike the Africans of the last 15 years, where its all been about the times. Due you believe that Ryun's 3:33.1 was his limit during a long career stretching to 1972? Anyone with a bit of knowledge would look at that race on cinders with a slow opening lap and know it was worth at least 2 secs faster on synthetic with decent pacing.

[deano27671]

There's no "MAYBE" about 3:29.7 being worth 3:46 for 1 Mile; any statistician will tell you that it is. Look at what all the greats were running at or after their 30th b'day. Ovett - 3:33.78 (86), Cram - 3:33.03 (90), Scott - 3:33.71 (86), Aouita - 3:37.6 (89), Morceli - 3:38.41(00)/3:30.91 (99)-29 yrs 5 months. All considerably slower than Coe. The only 2 faster are EL G -3:27.64 (04), still 1.6 slower than his best as a younger man, & Lagat's 3:29.3 (05)- 3 secs slower than his best.

[deano27671]

Everyone then had run much faster earlier in their careers, but according to you, Coe must be the only anomaly, in that he was at his best at 30, despite all the WRs in 81? That's nonsense. He ran far fewer 1500s and Miles than all others listed. Had he ran more in his prime he'd have run much faster.

[oldjoe5]

@deano27671 . We were talking about Coe, who did not run during the cinder track era. What the hell does Jim Ryun have to do with the fact that Coe's mile PR was 3:47, not the 3:44 you claim he was capable of?

[oldjoe5]

@deano27671 "Back in the 80's the importance was on winning unlike the Africans of the last 15 years" Wrong once again. Not one of the mile WRs set by Coe, Ovett, or Cram in the 1980s was competetive. In El G's mile WR, he was pushed all the way to the line by Ngeny.

[deano27671]

Clearly any subtle argument goes over your head. I used the Ryun analogy to try & simplify things for you! Your inaccurate argument that "Not one of the mile WRs set by Coe, Ovett, or Cram in the 1980s was competetive. In El G's mile WR, he was pushed all the way to the line by Ngeny" completely contradicts your main point & reinforces my point that those 3 weren't pushed or paced as EL G was. All Coe's & Cram's mile WRs were either Dream or Golden Miles where the main goal was to win

[deano27671]

@oldjoe5 "dishonesty in that action". My God, what are you on? I can't even find that quote on this thread, but "no problems" is a figure of speech. Of course he would have to be at his best with ideal conditions to run a 3:44. You really are a pedant. In Coe's 1st WR the pace wasn't laid on for him as his pb was 3:57. His 2nd WR was an attempt (Zurich 81) but it also had all the leading milers except Ovett.

[deano27671]

They were down to meet in the Brussels race 9 days later, but Ovett pulled out the week before. Coe had asked for 2:48/49 at 3/4 and was given 2:51.9, with Boit right behind him. If he'd gone solely for the record he'd have not left it to pull away 15 m until the last 100. Cram's 85 WR was a competition against Coe and the WR was a byproduct. EL G had a whole harem of rabbits in tow all over Europe.

[deano27671]

His Mile WR was a carefully orchestrated job with the most efficient pacing possible (55.6, 56.2, 56.1,55.2) He had the added bonus of having the 1k WR holder up his ass pushing him all the way to the finish. El G even had Ngeny pace him for 1300m of his 1500 WR! That's like having Ovett agree to pace Coe or vice versa. That would never have happened. If Ovett had been in that Brussels race and they went with the pace for 3 equal laps of 56, then the WR would have gone out the window.

[deano27671]

EL G didn't run the circuit to just win, he went to set fast times. Of course sometimes that entailed closer races against the likes of Lagat & Ngeny, but more often he was way ahead of the field. In the early 80's there may be 2 or 3 fast efforts per year. Other than that they ran to beat the fields.

[oldjoe5]

@deano27671: You use a lot of ifs and would haves. Track is a sport with actual numbers

[deano27671]

@oldjoe5 Ok, try this then. "IF" you actually had any understanding of the European middle distance scene in that era, then you "WOULD HAVE" grasped the rudiments of my argument.

[oldjoe5]

@deano27671 "No problems" may indeed be a figure of specch but it certainl does not mean "was capable". Can't you even admit your dishonesty to yourself.

Coe'sw 1st wr took place in 1979 and does not apply to a discussion of the 1980s

[oldjoe5]

@deano27671 "except Ovett." Pretty key exception, wouldn't you say, given Ovett was the only one capable of beating him at that time.

"No problems" may be a figure of speech but surely even you will admit it is not interchangable with " was capable of". And now you are claiming "I can't even find that quote on this thread" while it is sitting there for all to see. My God man, can't you even be honest with yourself?

[deano27671]

@oldjoe5 I'm obviously dealing with a moron. Go away and read some books on the period. Ovett pulled out of their clash, not Coe's fault. The phrase "no problem" , which I've just located, refers to a quote from Mel Watman in AW, when he believed Coe was going to run 3:28 in Zurich 80. I then commented that if that were the case, which I agreed with, then of course he'd be able to run a 3:44 mile based on the 1.08 conversion. I talked about it in abstract and you then spun it out of context.

[oldjoe5]

@deano27671 . Your lack of self knowledge is really a shame

[oldjoe5]

I think you forgot about Norredine Morceli -- who took 2 seconds off of Cram's mile WR.

[franknjess]

@oldjoe5 - Just saw this, lol. No, I didn't forget Morceli. I was remarking on what Cram was capable of during his record race.

[newromantic888]

I was a great Ovett fan. I was so sad as a 13 year old I fell asleep during Moscow. I was in Australia though. Ovett forever.

[CB9YT]

Wonderful memories from my teenage years! I was a huge Steve Ovett fan!

[dahby79]

Where did u go 1981alan? i was surprised when

I read that u closed ur account,i wish u r

Fine and i miss ur Ovett's videos specially

The 1977 world cup 1500m, thanks for ur

Videos,u were reason for me knowing and seeing the amazing talent of Steve Ovett.

[JacktheDaniels]

Wow.

He destroyed them over the final 120m, just pulled away, and made it look so easy.

That was beautiful.

[Andrew2912]

'In the end Steve Ovett wins fairly easily' - he ran 3:49 and still made it look easy - well done and thanks for the memories

[gpc31]

To natqrn, markgregamy, deano, 1981aLaN:

Thanks for all the great videos. I'm viewing them in conjunction with re-reading the autobiographies of Coe & Ovett, along with Pat Butcher's -- a great nostalgia trip!

[natgrn]

you seem to have lots of this stuff. more please!

[markgregamy]

any more ovett mate, coe cram also. thanks for posting, brings back great memories, used to watch dream mile every year in some pub somewhere, always seemed to be 9.30pm ish this race.