Alan Watts - Determinism and Karma

[novaflo339]

ALAN WATTS FOR THE WIN!

[robertbrennanaa]

@novaflo339 LOL, Wattsy FTW

[amn3h23h2]

but, dear alan watts, old friend, i'm not a unified field of organism-environment. for you see, i'm a banana

[dFalcStudios]

this is excellent



[xOnimpulsex]

doesnt the ship cause the wakes?

[dukenotes]

@xOnimpulsex Did the builder of the ship cause the wake? Could he blame the person who commissioned him to build it? Let's put it another crazy way: Let's say there is an artist who wants to photograph or paint the wake/waves. The future event (the artwork) can now be said to be causing the present event (driving the ship) in order to cause the wake/waves so the artist can do his work. I'm not sure Watts ever described non-causality in the modern scientific sense and I'm not sure I am either.

[xOnimpulsex]

@dukenotes idk man. Like I understand what hes proposing. That time is infinitely present and that a linear perception of time is the reason that we are subjected to causality. Then I just got caught up in this weird mind game of, "does the present cause the past?" or "is the whole thing just a process and is not subjective to causality?" And then i thought to myself, of course the present causes the past in a way that it isnt caused, if that makes any sense lol

[dukenotes]

@xOnimpulsex LOL. I like the way you think. Probably things arise mutually. The Buddha said, "This arises, that becomes", which sounds sort of causal or Karmic but I think it's more subtle than that. Watts is fond of saying "An oak tree is one acorn's way of becoming other acorns." LOL

[gromby]

@dukenotes First the artist has to shoot light out of his eyes. Then he has to shoot enough light in the most irregular pattern required to make waves like the ones ships leave, sufficient to drive the ship. I think all this is impossible on many levels. How does the artist drive the ship? Does time move logically forward into the past? That would require that everything be going in reverse in the present. None of this seems tenable to me but maybe I do not understand.

[dukenotes]

@gromby What's in question is the assumption of "cause and effect." Looking at it in the "normal" way we could say that your hunger "causes" you to drive to the grocery store. But it would be just as valid to say the future event (buying groceries) is the "cause" of you getting into your car NOW. See? It's crazy either way you look at it and you may as well say that things arise mutually (although not necessarily at the same time.)

[dukenotes]

In the "Out of Your Mind" series he uses the act of "forgiveness" as an illustration of how the present changes the meaning of the past. Then musically he explains how the melody of a song is changed by notes that happen later. And in speech, if he says "I love you" you have to wait for the word "love" before you know what "I" is doing. Even when you hear the word "love" you have to wait to find out what he loves. He could say "I love flowers." Now is the point of origination/creation/meaning.

[dukenotes]

If you insist that the past causes or creates the future perhaps that's true if you let it. But let's say you need some food. The future event (buying groceries) could be said to be causing you to leave your house to travel to the store (the present event.) See how it's crazy either way? He says something like this in "Do You Do It, or Does It Do You." Or perhaps some of you are in college. The future (graduation, career) could be said to be causing your present situation (going to college.)

[OMFGallusernamesgone]

Sooo Alan Watts rejects the doctrine of Karma where your actions will shape your future situations?

[ruzickaw]

it does not explain nothing. A man is not a ship. The past stays within us. I can remember my childhood experiences. They are not completly gone.

[gerontodon]

I had doubts about this when I 1st heard it, but now I think it's right. That the present is consistent with the past is not the same thing as the present being caused by the past. It pretty much can't help being consistent with it- if it wasn't, nothing and no-one would exist in any sense.

[eljibaroconflow]

@gerontodon he conducted an inception on you. planted an idea the first time you heard it, thus why the doubts, but then it grew. lol just a thought

[peacefulfatguy]

funny thing is this lecture was from the past...and im hearing it now

[Brandonian3030]

@peacefulfatguy

Nice , I like that ;)

[AtheistAnarchoRudi]

@peacefulfatguy lol so true. in fact it is more than possible to be in the present when thinking about the past and the future. in my opinion the real lack of "being in the moment" comes from fear of the past and the present.

[Ackdacka]

wag the dog

[SHIBBYiPANDA]

Ya I really dont think he's talking about determinism... He's saying the past doesn't determine the present or future, but he's not talking about determinism... Determinism deals with free will... He's talking about being to attatched to the past I think... Determinism deals most importantly with free will and what goes on inside a person which I'm pretty sure Alan would agree with... He's talking about letting the past control you, not cause and effect, which is inescapable...

[SHIBBYiPANDA]

I wouldn't say that this is exactly talking about determinism

[szmako]

Nothing exists except the HERE and NOW! Past and the future exist only in the mind!

[Estrevival]

I love this one. and what's the music for the background..?

[jimRRRRRRRRRR]

haerverk. i understand your problem with this video. It was the first time i didn't really think much of where Watts was going, but you have to remember no one man has all the answers, and if you didn't like what he was saying, i'm sure he would absolutely welcome any questions.

He doesn't know everything.

He is however, still very much a top guy :)

[D3adGoon]

@jimRRRRRRRRRR Yeah in a way I kinda just see him as someone entertaining to listen to. I've never had any life changing experiences from anything I've heard. Interesting stuff to ponder though.

[MorphingMindSet]

@D3adGoon Drunvalo Melchezidek(spelling?)

[sashamcclare]

The idea of future is a concept. For there to be a future you have to imagine one.

Past is a concept also. Recollect any situation you like and it will have happened now. For example while reading this it's now, make note of that. Stop reading and wait 5 seconds. When the 5 seconds is up recollect the memory of reading the message. You'll notice that the so called "past" reading of the message happened now.

[sashamcclare]

haerverk you were right to say "Never heard a schooled man say such a thoughtless thing", because to come to these conclusions, Alan had to first become thoughtless, in the sense that he dropped the common concepts of time and space. He is deriving his logic from his immediate experience. If you can do the same, I guarantee that you will observe that the point of causation is now. Determinism relies on the concept of time to survive and immediate experience shows the fallacy time.

[livery9]

ravel?

[haerverk]

Are you serious? He is saying that Tomorrow is NOT a reaction of today, do I really have to elaborate on how many levels this is wrong? Both physically and philosophicaly?? He woundnt be able to say ANY of these things had he not leaned them in the first place. Never heard a schooled man say such a thoughtless thing, Im sorry, didnt mean to step on any toes. I hope Im getting him wrong, so feel free to point it out if I am.

my view: past + present = future.

did that clarify? Im a determinist

[acousticroots]

@haerverk, you must remove yourself from your perceptions. Time does not move in one direction as we perceive it! A causal event implies a direction of time, when it really has none. That being said, it is IMO that determinism and free will are opposite sides of the same coin, both in continuous, simultaneous action. Unfortunately, like many things in a dualist world, we perceive them as separate and mutually exclusive! But separateness is merely an illusion! There is only, The One. Om

[haerverk]

@acousticroots are you indeed saying there is no causal connection between today and tomorrow? Do you really need to have that demonstated to you? Might I suggest that you join the rest of us in "forward moving time" for a bit? :P we arent tachyons you know, neither do we experiense quantum scales events, so yes, for us time very much moves in 1 single direction. Separation is a subjective experiense, but we are subjective beings. As the guys below tries to wittily spin: thinking ruins this vid.

[acousticroots]

@haerverk. Exactly! We are subjective beings existing in a state that we only see a piece of the puzzle. Just because forward moving is the only way we experience time, does not mean that the other directions are not occurring. Just because we don't perceive things this way does not mean that is the entire puzzle in which we exist. You admit we are subjective beings, but then you try to use that subjectivity to prove forward moving causality. We are made of quantum scale events! Not separate!

[haerverk]

@acousticroots And now its time for YOU to admit we are subjetive beings, and hence, any other direction of time is irrelevant because we will never experience it or any direct effects of such a state. Im not saying the universe follows in our footsteps forward in time, but that exact motion is everything you will ever know, so talking about something outside it is just masturbating with nothing to show for at the end. (....)

[acousticroots]

@haerverk. "...any other direction of time is irrelevant because we will never experience it or any direct effects of such a state." "...that exact motion is everything you will ever know". You seem to know a lot about me and the future :-). I guess what I've been trying to convey is that we need to move our thinking past our own subjectivity if we are to gain a better understanding about the universe in which we operate. If you would rather not think about it, that's fine with me... Namaste

[haerverk]

@acousticroots Oh, I see half my comment got cut, probably because I tried to link you something. Well, anyway.. I guess what Im trying to say is that even tho time might not have a direction; we inescapably do. For clarity I would appreciate if you could answer the question everyone seems to dance around in here; do you imply that tomorrow is NOT directly and 100% contingent upon today? If so, try to influence anything retroactively and tell me how it went.. ;)

Takker og bukker!

[acousticroots]

@haerverk. Time is not real. The past and present are merely illusions of the present. They don't really exist. Yesterday doesn't exist. We are tempted to say it does and are quick provide evidence. "Look at all this stuff around us! Look at our memories!" Again, it's an illusion. Not the stuff, but the "past" from which it so "obviously" arose from. You seem to be saying that you know the magician isnt really floating, but you don't care how its actually happening. You just wanna watch the show

[haerverk]

@acousticroots was that a "Yes"?

[acousticroots]

@haerverk. I'm saying that tomorrow doesn't really exist, so I can't answer your question.

[markthebong]

@acousticroots Tell you what lets ask a prisoner what he thinks of all this.

[OMFGallusernamesgone]

@haerverk To you and anyone who has the same views, you must be well versed in western but not eastern philosophy. The importance of the now is pinnacle to Eastern philosophy. Its quite simple actually and after observation you will find it true, there is nothing other than now. There may have been past nows and future nows, but the only real now is right now. Everything else is an idea created by the mind, now. Subjectivity is what its all based on, we are subjectively only aware of Now.

[haerverk]

Never thought I'd say this... but this guy all of a sudden seems full of s**t : / I just lost another hero

[Brandonian3030]

Really? How so?

[SHIBBYiPANDA]

@Brandonian3030 I'm not sure that this should have "Determinism" in the title.. I don't think Watt's ever denied the claims of Determinism. that all things are cause and effect, in fact I'm sure he endorsed that.. But I'm not really sure what all he's trying to say in this message.. Can you converse and perhaps explain to me what all is going on in this video's message? Or did he write any books about this particular message????

[aniak17]

I'll tell you a secret: being full of shit doesnt mean that you dont have anything to contribute.

[haerverk]

I highly agree, this man has sent me down many fruitful paths, that why this bummed me out : /

[livery9]

can you elaborate on why this video bummed you out? thanks.

[TheIgnoramus]

@aniak17 your 100% right. We can use there shit to grow food for people who have a shitless GI tract ;)

[Fraterculae]

@haerverk no!!! this is a good talk .. i have heard this many times but i still need to take notice!

[perroswelto]

@haerverk Why did you ever look to Alan to be your hero in the first place? I dont recall him ever trying to pretend to be a hero. Try being a hero to yourself, perhaps thats what Alan would say.

It pleasures me to see you looking for enlightenment. Dont give up.

[SHIBBYiPANDA]

@haerverk I'm really interested in why you said this..

[SHIBBYiPANDA]

@haerverk I don't think he's arguing against determinism... I think he's just talking about letting the past control you or being to attatched to the past, and letting it determine you in that sense... I don't think the video title should have the word determinism in it..

[bettedoom]

@haerverk

Don't be sad, now that you've lost another hero you ought to reread Alan Watts again.

[Jcolinsol]

@haerverk

If you meet the buddha along the road, kill him.

[TheIgnoramus]

@haerverk only because the people you are surrounded by are very "Yin".

[lynleyinlondon]

This video,, beyond being illuminating and amusing has also yielded a brilliant band name - The Winking Serpents!

[AtomicBobBomb]

Thank you for uploading this. This has officially become my favorite YouTube video as of right now. Because of this I am going to drop what I am doing (procrastinating) and become what I am. :)

[pingupenguin]

@AtomicBobBomb Yes, going to, in due time, any day now... ;) But really, I hope you succeeded where so far I am failing.

[AtomicBobBomb]

@pingupenguin It's been a while since I've seen this, and looking back I can say it was part of a major change in how I view my life. That being said, isn't reflecting to see if you succeeded or failed just a failure of its application? Best of luck in telling your past who's boss.

[pingupenguin]

@AtomicBobBomb Thanks buddy, I appreciate what you wrote!

[rdbrid]

cool effects and music- ichiban!