I've studied the O.T., and passages that suggest human sacrifice was involved appear to have been sanitized. But since the entire N.T. is about a human, or God-man sacrifice, they couldn't very well cover all that up. If Jesus was the O.T. God's right hand man, and He had him nailed to a cross as an atonement for sin, then GUESS WHAT? He's quite alright with human sacrifices!
Prof: Never mind that form of human sacrifice. I just had to deal with attempted suicide by a 13 year old Gay kid. He was bullied EVEN IN SUNDAY SCHOOL at his Church. In my view, that is a human sacrifice to a twisted ideology based on a strained reading of Scripture. I am so grieved at the number of Gay teenagers who have been driven to suicide by those who claim the most loudly to be "Pro-Life," that my heart could break. Much more has to be done to stop this.
christianity is totally different from judaism. Christ exposed jews as the evil race they are. Jews practiced human sacrifice amd still do today. jews send christians and muslims to kill each other for their profit. Talmud is an evil book that treats non jews as animals literally, beasts created to serve jews. NWO the work of jews
@blaztmarket You do know that the first half of your holy book is striaght from Jewish holy texts? And your Christ was a Jew. He also thought that non-Jews were nothing but "dogs". There is a story were a Gentile woman asks Jesus to help her. He told her that because she wasn't Jewish, he couldn't help her. She said that even dogs knew their place, and after hearing this, Jesus helped her. The only difference between Judaism and Christianity is that the Jews don't believe Jesus was the savior.
Dear God! Two people in the history of the world have been offered as a sacrifice to YHVH. TWO!!! One is the exact image of God himslef, His son, and the other a happenstantial accident. How awful.
There's a third: Jephthah's daughter. In a little-known story from Judges, 13, Jephthah agrees to sacrifice whatever greets him at the door when he returns from battle if god grants him victory.
@chirectomy Actually, that along with the SELF-sacrifice of Jesus Christ are the two events I was referring to, since Isaac was never actually sacrificed. Not only was it accidental and contrary to the law the God gave his people, it also probably didn't happen, as the Hebrew allows an "or" between "shall surely be the LORD's, and[/or] I will offer it up for a burnt offering." For the sake of being liberal I gave you two. Two in the entirety of the history of mankind. One being God in the flesh.
Regarding the binding of Isaac, do you think Abraham's actions are mitigated by his statement in Gen. 22:8 "My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering:" Doesn't this indicate Abraham went to the alter believing he would not have to sacrifice his son?
@chirectomy Genesis 22:2 says "Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.” so Abraham knew he would have to sacrifice his son even before he started climbing the mountain in 22:8.
That's a good point. Personally I think this text is contradictory and is probably an oral legend that got scrambled for centuries before being written down. Maybe the point was Abraham mentioned the lamb to pacify or trick Isaac. But you're right, the bottom line is that god told Abraham to sacrifice his son and he agreed.
@chirectomy "Personally I think this text is contradictory and is probably an oral legend that got scrambled for centuries before being written down."
That's probably true about every single story in the bible.
"Maybe the point was Abraham mentioned the lamb to pacify or trick Isaac."
I don't know how anyone could interpret it any other way. When Isaac asks "where is the lamb for the burnt offering?" Abraham could have said that Isaac himself would be the sacrifice, but he chose not to.
Christians like to say that jesus was willing to die. really? bechose in the Garden jesus prays and asks god to find a nother way. in old testament yaweh wants the life of one of jepithah as sacrifacie to yaweh. allso this of course does not chage the fack that yaweh demanded death of innocent children and women in wars. allso bible lies about canaanites, claiming that they practiced human sacrifaise when they did not, and while they did. ironycal is it not.
@gethsoftware Jesus was WILLING to die, but he didn't WANT to die. As the good shepherd, he was willing to die for his sheep unlike the hired man who isn't willing to die for them.
Israelite culture grew out of Canaanite culture.
Human sacrifice was practiced by primitive/undeveloped cultures that hadn't mastered irrigation yet and so relied on rain to water their crops. Throughout all of world history, people have believed that rain follows battle and concocted a "death brings life" rationale.
When I was an avid Pentacostal, I had a really hard time getting past Joshua 6:17. While translators frequently soften the verse, in it Joshua's directing a mass human sacrifice, including infants, in the name of and unto YHWH. "16 The seventh time around, when the priests sounded the trumpet blast, Joshua commanded the army, 'Shout! For the LORD has given you the city! 17 The city and all that is in it are to be devoted[a] to the LORD.'" New International Version.
If you read ahead to verse 30, you will see that all the sacrifices (fruits, liquors, sons, oxen sheep) were to be given on the eighth day. With respect to the firstborn sons, this is probably a reference to circumcision, which took place on the eighth day. Still, all the rest of the items on the list were to be destroyed or burned. Who knows what this passage was referring to? It's interesting to consider the possibilities with the other stories in mind.
Leviticus 18:21 "And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, NEITHER SHALT THOU PROFANE THE NAME OF THY GOD: I am the LORD. "
A common christian thesis is that the chief end of man is to glorify god and all commands serve that end, not human good. It's interesting how this theme comes up a lot in scripture - no matter how awful a crime is, the real prohibition is always against defaming god, not harming humans. The glory of god is always put above the welfare of man.
While I totally agree with point that the absence of an answer does not imply consent (rape justification, anyone?), why put the story of Jephthah in the bible at all? What other message are people supposed to get from it?
...commemorated is "to lament the daughter of Jephthah", not repeat a human sacrifice, as you seem to be suggesting slightly. The Bible contains many records of terrible things done by men who believed in God, yet were NOT commanded by God. Human sacrifice was by no means a part of Israel's worship, as it was for other pagan nations; this is one of the ways in which God called His people to be distinct from the rest of the world.
@Grambo4 "Elohim, which you say should be translated as god-S, while technically in plural form, is not always used as plural."
I know. It's a vestige of Israelite religion's polytheism and some (not all, but some) of the polytheistic tracks have been covered.
" Despite the im ending common to many plural nouns in Hebrew, when referring to the Name of God its grammatically singular, & takes a singular verb in the Hebrew bible."
Actually, in many passages in the Jewish scriptures...
(con't) @Grambo4 ...it takes plural verbs. See a video I did on this: /watch?v=uqcW-UGAjlw
"It feels like you're trying to put some sort of blame on Yahweh in the story...."
Call it blame if you'd like. Yahweh accepted the vow: do this for me and if you do I will make the sacrifice. If, as it is contended, Yahweh is omniscient, then he must have known that Jephthah would end up engaging in a human sacrifice.
@ProfMTH (cont) I mean, God had already given His people the Law, stipulating how to worship Him, including what was and was not acceptable worship. Human sacrifice was not listed as acceptable or desirable worship of God. Jephtah should have already known this, and thus should have been far more prudent in his oath making. That is the point of the story.
@Grambo4 It wasn't listed as unacceptable worship of God either, and nobody in the religious hierarchy lifted a finger or a voice to stop this murder.
Well you're right inasmuch as we celebrate with reverence the once-for-all sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. There is no disputing that. His sacrifice has atoned for our sins, and we have no forgiveness apart from Him. But I think you should be honest in recognizing the tone of this video. It's implying that somehow Christians ought to see some sort of pagan, repetitive human sacrifice in their religion. But there is nothing of this in Christianity. Not like that.
@Grambo4 majority of religions, dont practice human sacrifice. allso, sacrifcing a man god for the sins of hole world is something that appears in mythology. promethius crusified to atone for the sin of men. Heracles saved people for the river of death. horus wiped clean the sins of humanity. and zeus drowned the world for its sins. most gods dont need sacrifices. christianity is actualy one of the few religions that belives in blood sacrifice. any buddhist whuld throw up even from the idea.
@Grambo4 most pagans dont belive in blood sacrifice. especialy human sacrifice. one of the reasons why romans found christianity discusting was the fact that they honorde human sacrifice. Allso, yaweh demands the death of intire people in old testament. this is human sacrifce in massive scale, minus only by name.
@Grambo4 really? the new testament has the hole human sacrifice thing going on. the climax and the foundation of christianity is the offer of blood sacrifice. allso the supreme god of achent jews did not want, human sacrifices. but the god now worsiped, yaweh, does. allso. romans used the excuse to wage war on chartage, as they belived them to sacrfice humans. so roman gods are against human sacrifice. allso, the genocide of people to please yaweh, is human sacrifice in massive scale.
...Second, Jephtah. Surely this is a story of the foolishness of making oaths in haste, and not thinking them through. It feels like you're trying to put some sort of blame on Yahweh in the story, which is odd because the way the story unfolds, the blame is put entirely on Jephtah. This human sacrifice is not something which God commands, or is mentioned a approved by God. It is a story of a foolish man, who yet realizes an oath to Yahweh is binding. Furthermore, the custom that is....
@Grambo4 Jephtah wins after making the vow, and God doesn't tell him not to follow through. With even a few minutes thought God could have figured out how to avoid this sacrifice, or at least punished Jephtah for doing it. For instance he could have arranged for the house to burn down, so that nobody came out of the house when he came home, they all just stood there beside the ashes. He could have told some guys to kill the first person they see practising human sacrifice and saved the girl.
There's a sense in which the road of "what could've been done" is just futile to go down. Ask yourself honestly, what would you think if God actually manipulated reality to alter every bad choice every person ever made? Is that something you'd actually prefer--having no real choice (no choice that could ever have any real weight, anyway) in living your life? God let's us have free will, friend. He is no tyrant; He is a Father who lets His creation make mistakes as they choose. But....
@Grambo4 We're not talking about "every bad choice" we're talking about the choice to sacrifice in His name. If' you're not prepared to make sure that evil isn't done in your name why bother being a God? This asshole diety blew away whole cities, why not kill one man who, according to you, did something deeply offensive to God IN GOD'S NAME?
...there are also other angles to consider in this story. Just because God gave Jephtah victory does not mean that this was an affirmation of his un-witting oath. It is entirely possible that God had already chosen to give Jephtah victory, for instance, independent of his oath to God, for other purposes of greater good. The bottom line though is that Jephtah had the Law to teach Him, and obviously knew that an oath to God is binding, so he should've not been so hasty. It's his fault.
@Grambo4 Yes Jephtah might not have needed to do anything for the victory, certainly God probably favoured his side anyway. So then why did he even let Jephtah make the oath? Even after he did why couldn't God just say "You idiot, what if your child or wife or slave is the first thing to come out of your house? For that you don't get to go home EVER! Send a letter explaining your stupid mistake to your daughter, preferably with a picture so she doesn't forget what you look like.". Simple.
@Grambo4 - At least, you admit that he made such a vow. I've been having a conversation with one Christian on youtube that claims the words "burnt offering" don't make an appearance in any English translation of Judges Chapter 11.
Hey, thanks for making this video. First of Elohim, which you say should be translated as god-S, while technically in plural form, is not always used as plural. When used with singular verbs and adjectives it is usually singular, "god" or especially, the God. When used with plural verbs and adjectives it is usually plural "gods". Despite the im ending common to many plural nouns in Hebrew, when referring to the Name of God its grammatically singular, & takes a singular verb in the Hebrew bible..
@ProfMTH you want to know something really creepy. i am named afther yaweh. my first name is janne witch is twisted from yaweh. so i am called afther a god of war that i dispise.
Methinks the "Jephta" charachter was a SICK dude, to risk such an offer !
Also, it shows that the OTHER jews didn't do anything to stop him, or change his mind.
I have read the old testament, from cover to cover (it took months), and it left me feeling emotionally disturbed. It is NOT Christian - Jesus came to SAVE the jews.
I also found the descriptions of SACRIFICING THE FIRST BORN OF THE FLOCK, very disturbing:
@sk1ll3tfr34k "first off, why would God order a human sacrifice if He was against it in the first place?"
I don't know. But the Bible has Yahweh ordering one in the case of Abraham's son Isaac (although Yahweh ends up calling it off once he's convinced that Abraham is faithful) and accepting one promised to him in exchange for his assisting Jephthah.
"God is totally against human sacrifice, and Abraham knew that."
On what basis do you claim Abraham knew that God was "totally against...
@ProfMTH if u dont know why did u choose to use it as an example?
"On what basis do you claim Abraham knew that God was "totally against..."
due to the fact that God HATES murder, and due to the fact that He was TESTING ABRAHAM'S OBEDIENCE, not b/c He was contradicting Himself. if u wanna test someone to see if they will do ur bidding, do u test them lightly or do u put them in a really tough situation?
@sk1ll3tfr34k "if u wanna test someone to see if they will do ur bidding, do u test them lightly or do u put them in a really tough situation?"
If, as you claim, Abraham knew all along that God would never really ask him to sacrifice his son, then Abraham knew it was a bogus test. You need to think this one through a bit more.
@ProfMTH i did not say that. i ASKED a question, so quit giving out bureaucratic language and answer it in a simple manner.
"If, as you claim, Abraham knew all along that God would never really ask him to sacrifice his son, then Abraham knew it was a bogus test."
how did he know that then? look at the culture back then. in Ur, the gods required sacrifices, including human sacrifices. Abraham chose to follow God b/c he thought God was different than the gods of Ur. he was right.
@sk1ll3tfr34k no not really. abraham was polytheist. allso, the god he worships is not the same as the god of moses. allso, not all gods even in that time demanded human sacrifce. human sacrifice has allwasy being taboo. and its only some rare cults that practice human sacrifice. cults like christianity. you have read too much propaganda.
@gethsoftware how about providing passages from the Bible that say that Christians must offer a human sacrifice all the time? better yet, go to a pastor and bring up this case. he'll know more than i will about that. and also, open the Bible and see where it says "you must offer human sacrifice or perish in Hell".
@sk1ll3tfr34k I'm sorry, I didn't catch your answer to my question. You did say "God is totally against human sacrifice, and Abraham knew that", didn't you? It seems *you* are the one doing the avoiding.
@ProfMTH ok, now we're on the same page. if u pulled out my quote then yes i said that. now answer my question. i don't think i will state it again, since it's visible on my previous posts.
Finally. So since, as you assert, God was against human sacrifice *and* Abraham knew that, this "test" was really not a test at all, but rather an odd charade. My answer to your question is that, based on what you've said, it was no test at all.
Ive read the old testament, cover to cover, and i dont remember ANYWHERE, God forbidding human sacrifice.
I WAS looking for it, because i was disturbed by the way the sacrificial obediences DIDNT always specify animals, but SOMETIMES did" (suggesting that SOME sacrifices MAY not have been animal).
Also, i was shocked that priests, even today, refer to their congregation, as their FLOCK !
Why do that, when the old testament demanded the sacrifice of the "first born of the flock" ?
@AnnoyingTypoSyndrome "Ive read the old testament, cover to cover, and i dont remember ANYWHERE, God forbidding human sacrifice."
but what did God do to nations who allowed, even upheld child sacrifice? HE DESTROYED THEM, LIKE HE DESTROYED ISRAEL WHEN THE ISRAELITES BEGAN THAT PRACTICE!
WHAT DID GOD DO TO THE NATIONS THAT ALLOWED, EVEN UPHELD CHILD SACRIFICE? HE DESTROYED THEM, ***(LIKE HE DESTROYED ISRAEL WHEN THE ISRAELITES BEGAN THAT PRACTICE!)***
That one sentence piece shows very clearly that God is firmly against the practice of child sacrifice. the OT is filled w/ stories like these. if u truly read the OT, u would have realized this long before u made this film. apparantly u did...
@sk1ll3tfr34k He destroyed nations all over the place, some because they were 'bad' according to him, some because they were in the way of the Isrealities and once just because the previous destruction of a city had failed and God needed to give him and his troops some loot. Oh wait he only attempted to do that, that invasion failed as well.
@newperve "some because they were in the way of the Isrealities and once just because the previous destruction of a city had failed and God needed to give him and his troops some loot."
i suggest u re-read those stories. the Israelites asked for safe passage through some cities, but they were refused.
@sk1ll3tfr34k ahem. no not really. as the video states. yaweh likes the death and chaos. and there is one verified instance in bible where god takes blood sacrifice. allso. the caananites did not practice human sacrifice like the bible states. its kinda like ted hagard syndrome. jews are guilt of retrojecting. they project their own gods blood lust in to the gods of other nations. the claims about the human sacrifice was war time propaganda.
To be honest, i never read anywhere that he said he couldnt lie, either !
In fact, he claims he can do ANYTHING, so i'd guess lying is quite possible. HE certainly uses words and phrases which inlude "i will deceive your enemies" and "missguide" them (not quotes, just form memory).
He also sqays he HATES liers and murderers MOST OF ALL (suggesting he also hates other sinners), so hatred is not as ungodlike as the church claims - forgiveness is NOT essential ALL the time.
@ProfMTH "So since, as you assert, God was against human sacrifice *and* Abraham knew that, this "test" was really not a test at all, but rather an odd charade. My answer to your question is that, based on what you've said, it was no test at all."
so what u just told me is if i study for a final exam, and the teacher gives me a list of questions that MIGHT be on the test, and i ace the test, then it was not really a test, right?
@sk1ll3tfr34k "so what u just told me is if i study for a final exam, and the teacher gives me a list of questions that MIGHT be on the test, and i ace the test, then it was not really a test, right?"
No. However, what you've told me--albeit unintentionally--in this exchange is that you haven't thought this through, but rather you're just tossing stuff out that you hope defends your religious belief set. Get back to me if & when you've applied some thought to this & can follow an argument.
@ProfMTH "No. However, what you've told me--albeit unintentionally--in this exchange is that you haven't thought this through, but rather you're just tossing stuff out that you hope defends your religious belief set."
lol that's basically what u told me in a nutshell. i just put it into a modern form for u
ok i only saw through 1:30 of the vid and i already have some serious issues.
first off, why would God order a human sacrifice if He was against it in the first place? the dunce who posted the vid left out the fact that God did that to test Abraham's faith. God is totally against human sacrifice, and Abraham knew that. God was looking for one of two reactions: Abraham questioning and disobeying God's command, or a total and complete surrender in carrying out His bidding.
@fatimamovement wat u just said is all crap. how can God have a mother? if He does, prove that His mother is real, that she really is His mother, and that she is NOT human in any way.
also, provide evidence for the date of Rome's destruction. lol i guarantee u, that prediction is as faulty as the apocalypse on october 21, 2011
Well, I'm an atheist (of Jewish extraction) but the Jephthath story seems to be one of many such stories you find in myth and legend that falls into the category of the "ill-made vow or ill-made wish" and it generally follows a similar pattern. Somebody swears to something stupid, or wishes for something stupid. The terms of the vow are fulfilled or the stupid wish is granted - with easily seen disastrous results.
The King Midas story is in a similar vein - and ends with a solid gold daughter.
(cont'd) (2) What's important to understand is that, just as pagan Gods were often depicted and worshiped in different aspects, sometimes as natural forces and sometimes as virtually human personifications, so the God of the bible, depending on the passage you're reading is depicted in very different ways -- sometimes as an essentially human figure, and sometimes as a kind of impersonal force.
(cont'd) And there are definitely places in the Bible where God is depicted, essentially as a sort of "legalistic" force -- where he exists only as "that which enforces an oath" -- and does so essentially blindly -- like a force of nature. We not only see that in the Jephthah story but also in the story of Jacob stealing Esau's blessing from Isaac. This is a blessing from God -- how would God allow *his* blessing to be falsely conferred - through a trick.
(cont'd)(4) But the blessing is like a vow. Once uttered, you are bound by it. And in these odd contexts, God as a "binding force" will hold you to a vow, even a terrible, ill-considered vow, or to a blessing, even one that has been wheedled out of you through trickery.
There seems to be insufficient archeological evidence at this time to say for sure whether or not the ancient Hebrews or the Canaanites & other peoples around them practices human sacrifice. But Carthage, a Phoenician colony, certainly did, on a large scale, & since the Hebrews seem to have arisen from the ancient nations during the Bronze Age collapse rather than being a distinct people from the beginning, I think they very well might have practiced human sacrifice.
why would god command sacrafice? the forbidding of murder is in the ten commandments...dont get me wrong i believe in god but I think that biblical story is a bunch of crap or maybe misinturpreted, can i get a clean explination?
@MistahGrinch The commandment should rather be translated as "You shall not murder [another Israelite [illegally]]". Killing is alright by Yahweh as long as it's a non-israelite (in battles, for example) or when his laws say so (stoning children, for example).
Besides, there's only a few, few places where Yahweh forbids murder but a crapload of places where he orders systematic murder. If one of them is the exception, it's the "*Don't* kill" part.
From Chabad.org "The Hebrew prefix "ו" which precedes the words "I will offer him" can be translated as "and" or "or."" Who knows the Hebrew language better than the Jews? Yes, I do struggle sometimes. Growth takes struggle. I struggle with, question and wrestle with God, but I never stop believing in Him.
@rpbrooksbank I had a look at Chabad's comment on the story and note that it relied on a proposition that doesn't appear anywhere in the story and it changes words in the story, i.e., "If it will be a person, then it 'shall be [consecrated] to G‑d.' and if it should be an animal, then 'I will offer him as a burnt-offering.'" When someone has to change and/or add to a biblical story in order to save it from the problem(s) the text plainly presents, that just demonstrates the problem.
(con't) @rpbrooksbank It's also worth noting that you failed to mention that Chabad's comment goes on to talk about how the story is quite consistent with the proposition that Jephthah "went ahead and offered his daughter as a sacrifice."
@ProfMTH Are you saying that it is impossible for mistranslations to appear in the Bible? The part I quoted was and is a plausible explanation, and has been put forth by more than just that one website.
@rpbrooksbank "Are you saying that it is impossible for mistranslations to appear in the Bible?"
Nope.
"The part I quoted was & is a plausible explanation, & has been put forth by more than just that one website."
As I showed, the "explanation" as offered by Chabad requires modifications to the text. So, if one defines 'plausible' to mean "makes sense if I change the story", then, yes, it's plausible. By itself, the and-or thing makes the vow nonsensical. Nonsense is never plausible.
I'm implying that He was fully human and fully God. It was the sacrifice of God the Son that paid for our sins. Not the sacrifice of Jesus the man. His life was given, not taken. He redeemed us. Just like the Israelites were commanded to redeem their firstborn males.
@rpbrooksbank "I'm implying that He was fully human and fully God. It was the sacrifice of God the Son that paid for our sins. Not the sacrifice of Jesus the man."
Hebrews 10:10, "[W]e have been sanctified through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ." Was that *not* a human body, a man's body?
"His life was given, not taken."
Well, according to the Gospel of John, yes. It has Jesus pretty much committing suicide, with the crucifixion as a sort of stage for his suicide to occur.
(con't) @rpbrooksbank See, e.g., Tertullian, who in his Apology claims that on the cross Jesus "with a word expressing his own will dismissed his spirit, forestalling the work of the executioners."
But there are lots of other passages that in the New Testament that talk about Jesus being killed. So it is a mixed bag of claims, as is true of so many topics in the Bible.
much more in line with the rest of scripture, IMHO. I'm not one to deny that translation errors are impossible. There are numerous verses that tell of God's abhorrence of human sacrifice, and not just to other God's. I will end by saying that God does welcome questions, and that's a good thing. Because I've got a lot of them.
Jephthah's vow is something that I have struggled with. I admit that. However, I have come across a very convincing argument that may help. The word for "and" in Hebrew from " whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD’s, AND I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.” can also be translated as "or". Which means that the vow could have been "I will give into your service or offer as a burnt sacrifice." This seems much (cont.)
I will attempt this. 1). The Spirit of God does not prompt Jephthah to make his vow. The Spirit prompts him to go against the enemy. 2). The Bible also says that we are to redeem the firstborn males. The firstborn males are God's, but instead of giving them into his service, offering them up to God, we are to redeem them. You need to read more than just the passages presented to you. 3). Jesus's sacrifice was not a human sacrifice. Jesus was God.
Every so often you hear a crazy story in the news about a mom who drowns her 3 kids because "god told her to do it". If you believe in the bible then you have to admit that it is possible that God may ask you to murder your children some day as a test of faith.
Every word of the bible is the perfect and literal word of God... except that part. I really love your vids and you have the patience of Job (hehe) when answering apologists' comments. I've played some of them for family members and I honestly give u credit for them sort of downgrading to loosely cultural xtians.
ProfMTH, As I've said, You will never understand GOD until you receive Understanding by His Holy Spirit. The Bible says that "...man's ways are not GOD's Ways. GOD's Ways are higher than man's." Because we are sinful beings, we have cut ourselves off from the true Source of Life. In order to understand what is True in life, and in this Universe, we have to get ourselves re-connected to this Life-Source, the Creator GOD. This is not a cop-out explanation, ProfMTH, it's just the truth.
@gdg1963 "As I've said, You will never understand GOD until you receive Understanding by His Holy Spirit."
And as I've said, the "Christians have special or unique knowledge" assertion is one of the last refuges of an apologist who, like you, lacks an argument. Don't waste my time or yours merely repeating yourself.
@ProfMTH , I had to repeat myself because you weren't believing the Truth when I stated it the first time. I've given you plenty of truths for you to consider and run with. It is your stubborn heart that refuses to realize, and admit, that you cannot understand GOD and His Ways without His personal Intervention in your heart. As long as you continue to believe that you "understand just fine" the Bible, when you clearly don't, then you'll never allow GOD to help you to understand His Scriptures.
As for poor Jephthah, and his even more unfortunate daughter, the main point is, is that GOD highly values the keeping of one's word, regardless of the price, because HE Himself keeps HIS Word regardless of the Price. That's why YAHUSHUA warns to let our "Yes" be "Yes" and our "No" be "No", for anything other than that is from evil. He also warns to not make a vow to GOD at all, especially if there's a chance that we will not keep it. For, GOD takes Promises seriously. Read PSALM 15:4b!
@ProfMTH , YAHUSHUA said "Do not swear (make a vow) before GOD's Throne..." He's saying that we don't have the assurance that we will want to even keep a particular vow, or even if we did, we don't even know what the full price will be to keep said vow. So, it's best not to make a vow before the GOD Who takes vow-keeping seriously. So, He says we are to say "Yes" if that's what we mean. Or, to say "No.". Anything else results from evil, or will cause unecessary hurt or damage.
@ProfMTH , Yes, GOD knew Abraham inside-and-out. But, GOD had to exercise Abraham's faith so that he could grow in his Faith. For, as followers of GOD, we still have free-will, and we can choose, at any time, to disobey GOD and live however we want. (There are "christians" who are Hell-bound for living in disobedience and sin, even though they don't believe they could end up in Hell. But, that's another Chapter.) Abraham's sacrifice was an "incidental foreshadowing" of GOD's ultimate Sacrifice.
With Abraham and Isaac, GOD was doing at least a couple of things there. He was testing or "proving" Abraham's obedience. For, Obedience, also, is of high-grade importance to GOD. Secondly, by this would-have-been act of Abraham sacrificing his only son, YAHUVEH was helping us to understand, in a human way, what HE was going to do with HIS One and only begotten Son in the future, on the Tree of Golgotha. The act served as a foreshadowing and a reminder of GOD sending mankind a Saviour, a Lamb.
First thing is that GOD is a GOD Who keeps His Word. When HE makes a Promise, a Vow, a Covenant, you can always bet your very last copper penny that He will keep said Promises. It is His Character to do so. He values keeping Promises. And, He deems it the thing for His people to do also. If His people makes promises or vows to HIM or to someone else, GOD expects them to keep them. HE says to "be ye holy as I AM Holy.". So, keeping vows and promises are of uttermost importance to ELOHIM.
If these and many other Biblical stories were in any other books, they would be denounced, and self-appointed committees would be lobbying to keep them out of libraries.
One point most christians ignore is that when the daughter comes out to greet Jephthah, he tears his clothing. Christians ignore it because they don't understand its significance. There is a jewish tradition in which you are supposed to tear your clothing upon hearing about the death of a loved one.
But one of the kings did also rip his clothes when he heard they weren't following Yahweh's law after all. (One must wonder why he didn't figure this out earlier, but you know...) Isn't tearing clothes a way of mourning something in general?
Jesus was nothing BUT a human sacrifice. How does taking an innocent person off the street and killing him for someone elses crime make the guilty person innocent in ANYONES eyes?! Whats more, sealing the deal by pretending to eat the dead mans flesh and drink his blood? Christianity is caveman religion, nothing new, and makes no sense. If the wages of sin is death, we ALL die, and therefore would pay for our OWN sins when we die. No human sacrifice required. Besides, jesus didnt STAY dead!
I wonder why the daughter went away and "bewailed her virginity" instead of going away to bewail her imminent death? Seems a bit odd to worry about one's virginity in light of certain death by burnt offering. A bit more digging and I think you'll find the answer. FATB has a valid point about the use of the word "or" in verse 31.
@FortheLuIz well never to have someone you fell in love with.Never to have a child or to be a mother would be a terrible thing for sure.Of course though she did go with friends so maybe she wasn't a virgin by the time she returned.Her mistake to me is not taking those 2 months to get as far away from her father as possible.Let him deal with the little problem of not being able to keep his promise.
@FortheLuIz verse 38 gives the answer why she went to bewail " She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children."
@ProfMTH exactly, because you are going to be killed, you, of course can't partake in the other joys of life such as having kids, etc. I'm not sure if FotheLulz is suggesting that she was not killed, or that the sacrifice was something else, but I think the verses are pretty clear.
Deut 12:31 “You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.”
The Christian God appears to be a hypocrite when comes to human sacrifice.
The others have leeway in their interpretations IMO, but the Jephthah one... seems pretty airtight. Only thijng that can be said there is that God was neutral about the sacrifice... so maybe he was in the bathroom for those two months.
God forbids human sacrificesread Deuteronomy 18:10 and 2 Kings 21:6
God offering the essence of Himself is human sacrifice? Human sacrifice always involved victims who were either a) deceived; b) unwilling. Jesus was neither
Exodus 22:29 is not referring to sacrifice, but to service. No one sacrificed fruits and liquors on an altar.
5.He would have had to offer her at some cultic site, which would have had a priest. There would be absolutely no chance whatsoever that the priest would agree to perform a human sacrifice.
@FarAwayTheBest "Human sacrifice always involved victims who were either a) deceived; b) unwilling."
Really? What's your basis for that claim? And even if it were true, that wouldn't mean that a human *willing* to sacrifice himself was any less a human sacrifice than someone who wasn't willing.
As for the Jephthah story, it says what it says. I understand that what it says is unappealing. But that doesn't change the text of the story.
Jesus was not a victim; He was the priestly offerer, not much like the cruel human sacrifices we hear from the Aztecs
Did God approve of the sinful actions of those who killed Jesus? Absolutely not. In fact, Peter explained that those who killed Jesus had done so with “lawless hands” (Acts 2:23). He further explained that they had to repent of their sins or they would be lost forever (Acts 2:38).
While God used the sinful actions of Jesus’ murderers to bring about His purposes (Acts 3:17-19), He never condoned those actions. Those who murdered Jesus violated God’s law; they did not accomplish their dastardly deeds at God’s request, nor with His approval.
There is no indication that God approved of Jephthah’s vow and you still didn't explain the 5 evidences I gave for this, neither did you explain my response to Exodus 22:29 or how God indeed forbids human sacrifice
@FarAwayTheBest "Jesus was not a victim; He was the priestly offerer, not much like the cruel human sacrifices we hear from the Aztecs."
You are mythologizing Jesus' execution--something Christians have been doing since the earliest days of the movement in order to find meaning in their leader's being brutally killed. In any case, nothing you've said concludes to the proposition that Jesus' execution cannot be regarded as a human sacrifice within the context of Christianity.
(con't) @FarAwayTheBest "Did God approve of the sinful actions of those who killed Jesus?"
Your Bible says that your god predestined all of the players in Jesus' execution to do what they did (see, e.g., Acts 2:23, Acts 4:27-28). How odd that people doing what the biblical god predestined them to do could be regarded as "sinful actions" of which this god disapproves.
"God used the sinful actions of Jesus’ murderers"
Your Bible says he predestined those actions to happen, that all...
(con't) @FarAwayTheBest ...involved did "whatever [the biblical god's] hand and purpose predestined to occur" (Acts 4:28). Your god made it all happen; the actors had no choice.
"they did not accomplish their dastardly deeds at God’s request"
Again, they did what they were predestined to do. Why don't you believe your Bible?
"There is no indication that God approved of Jephthah’s vow...."
Yahweh gave him the victory he sought in exchange for the vow. Sounds like approval to me.
Oh wow, I never expected this, you're actually right about Jesus, unbelievable...i'm speechless about this
Nonetheless, I insist Jephthah daughter wasn't a sacrifice, sacrifices were always male and the Biblical God forbade human sacrifices in quite a couple of places, not just regarding pagan gods, it wasn't like god ordered human sacrifices and said that it had a good smell or sth
I believe the Bible, it's amazing how such a large book with different authors has no contradictions
"OK. The story says she was, but you are, of course, free to believe whatever you like."
Nowhere does it say she was sacrificed. oh but it said "he did to her according to her vow", yes, but this text can also be translateed "or i shall give it to the lord's"...what if he met a fly the first thing would he sacrifice a fly? Don't get too literal now
Or is i the end of it, are you not going to try and convince me I'm wrong at all?
@FarAwayTheBest "Nowhere does it say she was sacrificed...."
I covered this in the video in great detail. Judges 11:30-31, "Jephthah made a vow to Yahweh and said, 'If you will indeed give the sons of Ammon into my hand,
then it shall be that whatever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the sons of Ammon, it shall be Yahweh's, and I will offer it up as a burnt offering.'" Yahweh "gave them into his hand" (vs. 32), Jephthah's daughter was the first...
(con't) @FarAwayTheBest ...out of the house to greet him (vs. 34), and Jephthah "did to her according to the vow which he had made" (vs. 39)--again, the vow was to offer as a burnt offering to Yahweh whatever came out of the door of his house first. The text could not be plainer here.
"are you not going to try and convince me I'm wrong at all?"
I did a video on this. I've gone over it in comments with you. In sum, I *have* showed you that you're wrong. You choose not to recognize it.
"It's riddled with contradictions. But I have plenty of videos on that for you to watch."
Yeah, but there isn't much meaning to watch them if you're just going to ignore me when I answer your objections like you did with Jephthah, what's the meaning of watching the videos of someone who's not willing to listen to the other side? It can only convince the already convinced and perhaps frustrate some others
@FarAwayTheBest " if you're just going to ignore me when I answer your objections"
I haven't ignored your objections. But I'm not going to waste my time covering, recovering, and recovering yet again the same territory. I set the matter out in detail the video; I went over it with you in some detail in response to your comments. That's an odd notion of "ignoring" you have there. In any case, when an interloctutor of mine makes it clear that s/he has determined not to believe what the...
(con't) ...text of a biblical story plainly says, I feel no obligation to go round and round in circles, repeating myself and repeatedly answering the same objections. If that's what you're after, this isn't the channel for you.
Ethelbert William Bullinger, looks at the word "and" in the Jephthah's vow (Judges 11:31). As he explains the Hebrew prefix "ו" that is translated in the above passage as "and" is often used as a disjunctive, and means "or", when there is a second proposition. Indeed this rendering is suggested in the margin of the A.V. Bullinger goes on to give examples from the Bible where the same word has been translated as "or".
According to him, the right translation of this passage is: "whatever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the people of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, or I will offer it up as a burnt offering." Jephthah's daughter, being the first that came out of the house, was thus, according to Bullinger, dedicated to God
I know you're a great guy inside, open your heart a bit to what believers have to say, you could do great things for Christianity if you just willed it
The bible is a huge book with a colorful history, don't think you know everything about it, no matter how much you studied it.
Do you at least agree that the Exodus passage isn't referring to a human sacrifice?
@FarAwayTheBest "Do you at least agree that the Exodus passage isn't referring to a human sacrifice?"
I was tentative about the Exodus passage. Yes, it's quite possible that it is not a reference to human sacrifice at all. The Jephthah story, however, quite clearly *is* about a human sacrifice.
Jephthah’s action may best be understood by recognizing that he was using ‘olah in a figurative sense. We use the term when we say, “I’ll sacrifice a few dollars for that charity.” Jephthah was offering to sacrifice a member of his extended household to permanent, religious service associated with the Tabernacle. The Bible indicates that such non-priestly service was available, particularly to women who chose to so dedicate themselves (e.g., Exodus 38:8).
@FarAwayTheBest "Jephthah was offering to sacrifice a member of his extended household to permanent, religious service associated with the Tabernacle."
I've studied the O.T., and passages that suggest human sacrifice was involved appear to have been sanitized. But since the entire N.T. is about a human, or God-man sacrifice, they couldn't very well cover all that up. If Jesus was the O.T. God's right hand man, and He had him nailed to a cross as an atonement for sin, then GUESS WHAT? He's quite alright with human sacrifices!
truthbknwn 1 month ago
Prof: Never mind that form of human sacrifice. I just had to deal with attempted suicide by a 13 year old Gay kid. He was bullied EVEN IN SUNDAY SCHOOL at his Church. In my view, that is a human sacrifice to a twisted ideology based on a strained reading of Scripture. I am so grieved at the number of Gay teenagers who have been driven to suicide by those who claim the most loudly to be "Pro-Life," that my heart could break. Much more has to be done to stop this.
allsaintsmonastery 1 month ago
christianity is totally different from judaism. Christ exposed jews as the evil race they are. Jews practiced human sacrifice amd still do today. jews send christians and muslims to kill each other for their profit. Talmud is an evil book that treats non jews as animals literally, beasts created to serve jews. NWO the work of jews
blaztmarket 2 months ago
@blaztmarket You do know that the first half of your holy book is striaght from Jewish holy texts? And your Christ was a Jew. He also thought that non-Jews were nothing but "dogs". There is a story were a Gentile woman asks Jesus to help her. He told her that because she wasn't Jewish, he couldn't help her. She said that even dogs knew their place, and after hearing this, Jesus helped her. The only difference between Judaism and Christianity is that the Jews don't believe Jesus was the savior.
HimesInu 2 months ago
@blaztmarket
You do realize you sound like a caricature of yourself, right?
chirectomy 1 month ago
Dear God! Two people in the history of the world have been offered as a sacrifice to YHVH. TWO!!! One is the exact image of God himslef, His son, and the other a happenstantial accident. How awful.
700bees 3 months ago
@700bees
There's a third: Jephthah's daughter. In a little-known story from Judges, 13, Jephthah agrees to sacrifice whatever greets him at the door when he returns from battle if god grants him victory.
Great video by NonStampCollector on this story
/watch?v=Pt66kbYmXXk
chirectomy 5 days ago
@chirectomy Actually, that along with the SELF-sacrifice of Jesus Christ are the two events I was referring to, since Isaac was never actually sacrificed. Not only was it accidental and contrary to the law the God gave his people, it also probably didn't happen, as the Hebrew allows an "or" between "shall surely be the LORD's, and[/or] I will offer it up for a burnt offering." For the sake of being liberal I gave you two. Two in the entirety of the history of mankind. One being God in the flesh.
700bees 4 days ago
@700bees
Good call.
chirectomy 4 days ago
Regarding the binding of Isaac, do you think Abraham's actions are mitigated by his statement in Gen. 22:8 "My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering:" Doesn't this indicate Abraham went to the alter believing he would not have to sacrifice his son?
chirectomy 3 months ago
@chirectomy I don't think it does, no.
ProfMTH 3 months ago
@chirectomy Genesis 22:2 says "Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.” so Abraham knew he would have to sacrifice his son even before he started climbing the mountain in 22:8.
KayBeeEee1983 1 month ago
@KayBeeEee1983
That's a good point. Personally I think this text is contradictory and is probably an oral legend that got scrambled for centuries before being written down. Maybe the point was Abraham mentioned the lamb to pacify or trick Isaac. But you're right, the bottom line is that god told Abraham to sacrifice his son and he agreed.
chirectomy 1 month ago
@chirectomy "Personally I think this text is contradictory and is probably an oral legend that got scrambled for centuries before being written down."
That's probably true about every single story in the bible.
"Maybe the point was Abraham mentioned the lamb to pacify or trick Isaac."
I don't know how anyone could interpret it any other way. When Isaac asks "where is the lamb for the burnt offering?" Abraham could have said that Isaac himself would be the sacrifice, but he chose not to.
KayBeeEee1983 1 month ago
Christians like to say that jesus was willing to die. really? bechose in the Garden jesus prays and asks god to find a nother way. in old testament yaweh wants the life of one of jepithah as sacrifacie to yaweh. allso this of course does not chage the fack that yaweh demanded death of innocent children and women in wars. allso bible lies about canaanites, claiming that they practiced human sacrifaise when they did not, and while they did. ironycal is it not.
gethsoftware 4 months ago
@gethsoftware Jesus was WILLING to die, but he didn't WANT to die. As the good shepherd, he was willing to die for his sheep unlike the hired man who isn't willing to die for them.
Israelite culture grew out of Canaanite culture.
Human sacrifice was practiced by primitive/undeveloped cultures that hadn't mastered irrigation yet and so relied on rain to water their crops. Throughout all of world history, people have believed that rain follows battle and concocted a "death brings life" rationale.
KayBeeEee1983 1 month ago
When I was an avid Pentacostal, I had a really hard time getting past Joshua 6:17. While translators frequently soften the verse, in it Joshua's directing a mass human sacrifice, including infants, in the name of and unto YHWH. "16 The seventh time around, when the priests sounded the trumpet blast, Joshua commanded the army, 'Shout! For the LORD has given you the city! 17 The city and all that is in it are to be devoted[a] to the LORD.'" New International Version.
Cathmoytura 4 months ago
If you read ahead to verse 30, you will see that all the sacrifices (fruits, liquors, sons, oxen sheep) were to be given on the eighth day. With respect to the firstborn sons, this is probably a reference to circumcision, which took place on the eighth day. Still, all the rest of the items on the list were to be destroyed or burned. Who knows what this passage was referring to? It's interesting to consider the possibilities with the other stories in mind.
chirectomy 4 months ago
Leviticus 18:21 "And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, NEITHER SHALT THOU PROFANE THE NAME OF THY GOD: I am the LORD. "
A common christian thesis is that the chief end of man is to glorify god and all commands serve that end, not human good. It's interesting how this theme comes up a lot in scripture - no matter how awful a crime is, the real prohibition is always against defaming god, not harming humans. The glory of god is always put above the welfare of man.
chirectomy 4 months ago
Jephthah- worst parent ever. Second only to Yahweh.
LegionIscariot 4 months ago
Good one :-) Jephthah is good looking ;-)
Freelifewonder 5 months ago
Check out Jewish ritual murder on youtube. There were and are many who do human sacrifices
Chrysalis990 5 months ago
While I totally agree with point that the absence of an answer does not imply consent (rape justification, anyone?), why put the story of Jephthah in the bible at all? What other message are people supposed to get from it?
msbubbles257 7 months ago
@ProfMTH FAIL! I'm making a response soon.
DavidNeff2011 7 months ago
...commemorated is "to lament the daughter of Jephthah", not repeat a human sacrifice, as you seem to be suggesting slightly. The Bible contains many records of terrible things done by men who believed in God, yet were NOT commanded by God. Human sacrifice was by no means a part of Israel's worship, as it was for other pagan nations; this is one of the ways in which God called His people to be distinct from the rest of the world.
Grambo4 7 months ago
@Grambo4 "Elohim, which you say should be translated as god-S, while technically in plural form, is not always used as plural."
I know. It's a vestige of Israelite religion's polytheism and some (not all, but some) of the polytheistic tracks have been covered.
" Despite the im ending common to many plural nouns in Hebrew, when referring to the Name of God its grammatically singular, & takes a singular verb in the Hebrew bible."
Actually, in many passages in the Jewish scriptures...
ProfMTH 7 months ago
(con't) @Grambo4 ...it takes plural verbs. See a video I did on this: /watch?v=uqcW-UGAjlw
"It feels like you're trying to put some sort of blame on Yahweh in the story...."
Call it blame if you'd like. Yahweh accepted the vow: do this for me and if you do I will make the sacrifice. If, as it is contended, Yahweh is omniscient, then he must have known that Jephthah would end up engaging in a human sacrifice.
ProfMTH 7 months ago
(con't) @Grambo4 "This human sacrifice is not something which God commands, or is mentioned a approved by God."
Odd, then, that Yahweh didn't say something like, "Don't give me any human sacrifice, Jephthah."
ProfMTH 7 months ago
@ProfMTH
I think concluding silence from anyone to be an answer in the affirmative is a dangerous route to take, personally. Don't you?
Grambo4 7 months ago
@Grambo4 "I think concluding silence from anyone to be an answer in the affirmative is a dangerous route to take, personally. Don't you?"
But Yahweh wasn't silent. He did precisely what Jepthah asked him to do for him. Do you regard Yahweh answering a prayer as silence?
ProfMTH 7 months ago
@ProfMTH (cont) I mean, God had already given His people the Law, stipulating how to worship Him, including what was and was not acceptable worship. Human sacrifice was not listed as acceptable or desirable worship of God. Jephtah should have already known this, and thus should have been far more prudent in his oath making. That is the point of the story.
Grambo4 7 months ago
@Grambo4 It wasn't listed as unacceptable worship of God either, and nobody in the religious hierarchy lifted a finger or a voice to stop this murder.
newperve 7 months ago
@Grambo4 it's a part of christian worship that a human be sacrificed, or part human or born as a human.
waxheadglossy 6 months ago
@waxheadglossy
Well you're right inasmuch as we celebrate with reverence the once-for-all sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. There is no disputing that. His sacrifice has atoned for our sins, and we have no forgiveness apart from Him. But I think you should be honest in recognizing the tone of this video. It's implying that somehow Christians ought to see some sort of pagan, repetitive human sacrifice in their religion. But there is nothing of this in Christianity. Not like that.
Grambo4 6 months ago
@Grambo4 majority of religions, dont practice human sacrifice. allso, sacrifcing a man god for the sins of hole world is something that appears in mythology. promethius crusified to atone for the sin of men. Heracles saved people for the river of death. horus wiped clean the sins of humanity. and zeus drowned the world for its sins. most gods dont need sacrifices. christianity is actualy one of the few religions that belives in blood sacrifice. any buddhist whuld throw up even from the idea.
gethsoftware 3 months ago
@Grambo4 most pagans dont belive in blood sacrifice. especialy human sacrifice. one of the reasons why romans found christianity discusting was the fact that they honorde human sacrifice. Allso, yaweh demands the death of intire people in old testament. this is human sacrifce in massive scale, minus only by name.
gethsoftware 3 months ago
@Grambo4 really? the new testament has the hole human sacrifice thing going on. the climax and the foundation of christianity is the offer of blood sacrifice. allso the supreme god of achent jews did not want, human sacrifices. but the god now worsiped, yaweh, does. allso. romans used the excuse to wage war on chartage, as they belived them to sacrfice humans. so roman gods are against human sacrifice. allso, the genocide of people to please yaweh, is human sacrifice in massive scale.
gethsoftware 3 months ago
...Second, Jephtah. Surely this is a story of the foolishness of making oaths in haste, and not thinking them through. It feels like you're trying to put some sort of blame on Yahweh in the story, which is odd because the way the story unfolds, the blame is put entirely on Jephtah. This human sacrifice is not something which God commands, or is mentioned a approved by God. It is a story of a foolish man, who yet realizes an oath to Yahweh is binding. Furthermore, the custom that is....
Grambo4 7 months ago
@Grambo4 Jephtah wins after making the vow, and God doesn't tell him not to follow through. With even a few minutes thought God could have figured out how to avoid this sacrifice, or at least punished Jephtah for doing it. For instance he could have arranged for the house to burn down, so that nobody came out of the house when he came home, they all just stood there beside the ashes. He could have told some guys to kill the first person they see practising human sacrifice and saved the girl.
newperve 7 months ago
@newperve
There's a sense in which the road of "what could've been done" is just futile to go down. Ask yourself honestly, what would you think if God actually manipulated reality to alter every bad choice every person ever made? Is that something you'd actually prefer--having no real choice (no choice that could ever have any real weight, anyway) in living your life? God let's us have free will, friend. He is no tyrant; He is a Father who lets His creation make mistakes as they choose. But....
Grambo4 7 months ago
@Grambo4 We're not talking about "every bad choice" we're talking about the choice to sacrifice in His name. If' you're not prepared to make sure that evil isn't done in your name why bother being a God? This asshole diety blew away whole cities, why not kill one man who, according to you, did something deeply offensive to God IN GOD'S NAME?
newperve 7 months ago
@newperve
...there are also other angles to consider in this story. Just because God gave Jephtah victory does not mean that this was an affirmation of his un-witting oath. It is entirely possible that God had already chosen to give Jephtah victory, for instance, independent of his oath to God, for other purposes of greater good. The bottom line though is that Jephtah had the Law to teach Him, and obviously knew that an oath to God is binding, so he should've not been so hasty. It's his fault.
Grambo4 7 months ago
@Grambo4 Yes Jephtah might not have needed to do anything for the victory, certainly God probably favoured his side anyway. So then why did he even let Jephtah make the oath? Even after he did why couldn't God just say "You idiot, what if your child or wife or slave is the first thing to come out of your house? For that you don't get to go home EVER! Send a letter explaining your stupid mistake to your daughter, preferably with a picture so she doesn't forget what you look like.". Simple.
newperve 7 months ago
@Grambo4 - At least, you admit that he made such a vow. I've been having a conversation with one Christian on youtube that claims the words "burnt offering" don't make an appearance in any English translation of Judges Chapter 11.
lobothesacred3 5 months ago
Hey, thanks for making this video. First of Elohim, which you say should be translated as god-S, while technically in plural form, is not always used as plural. When used with singular verbs and adjectives it is usually singular, "god" or especially, the God. When used with plural verbs and adjectives it is usually plural "gods". Despite the im ending common to many plural nouns in Hebrew, when referring to the Name of God its grammatically singular, & takes a singular verb in the Hebrew bible..
Grambo4 7 months ago
I like how you put a bunch of pictures of Yahweh on top of each other when it says Elohim. LOL.
Ledwix 7 months ago
@Ledwix "I like how you put a bunch of pictures of Yahweh on top of each other when it says Elohim. LOL."
;-)
ProfMTH 7 months ago
@ProfMTH you want to know something really creepy. i am named afther yaweh. my first name is janne witch is twisted from yaweh. so i am called afther a god of war that i dispise.
gethsoftware 3 months ago
My final point on this:
If human sacrifice was NOT normal, and NOT allowed, they WHY on earth did Jephta go through with it, if he knew God WOULDNT like it ?
And why didnt all the other "honourable" and "god fearing" jews, kill Jephta, to prevent this evil act from taking plce ?
Nope - they were all just like "woooaaaah, bad luck, what a bummer, you're daughter came out".
But NO ONE stopped him, and HE didn't go and pray to God for guidance, as to whether he had made a mistake
IT WAS NORMAL
AnnoyingTypoSyndrome 8 months ago
Methinks the "Jephta" charachter was a SICK dude, to risk such an offer !
Also, it shows that the OTHER jews didn't do anything to stop him, or change his mind.
I have read the old testament, from cover to cover (it took months), and it left me feeling emotionally disturbed. It is NOT Christian - Jesus came to SAVE the jews.
I also found the descriptions of SACRIFICING THE FIRST BORN OF THE FLOCK, very disturbing:
What to priests call their followers ?
Their FLOCK !
CHILD SACRIFICE !
AnnoyingTypoSyndrome 8 months ago
@AnnoyingTypoSyndrome "What to priests call their followers ?
Their FLOCK !
CHILD SACRIFICE !"
what is a herd of sheep called? A FLOCK!
ANIMAL SACRIFICE, NOT HUMAN!
sk1ll3tfr34k 8 months ago
also, i have some serious issues w/ the cartoon. it is totally irrelevant to this discussion.
sk1ll3tfr34k 8 months ago
@sk1ll3tfr34k "first off, why would God order a human sacrifice if He was against it in the first place?"
I don't know. But the Bible has Yahweh ordering one in the case of Abraham's son Isaac (although Yahweh ends up calling it off once he's convinced that Abraham is faithful) and accepting one promised to him in exchange for his assisting Jephthah.
"God is totally against human sacrifice, and Abraham knew that."
On what basis do you claim Abraham knew that God was "totally against...
ProfMTH 8 months ago
(con't) @sk1ll3tfr34k "...human sacrifice"?
"i have some serious issues w/ the cartoon."
Too bad for you.
ProfMTH 8 months ago
@ProfMTH if u dont know why did u choose to use it as an example?
"On what basis do you claim Abraham knew that God was "totally against..."
due to the fact that God HATES murder, and due to the fact that He was TESTING ABRAHAM'S OBEDIENCE, not b/c He was contradicting Himself. if u wanna test someone to see if they will do ur bidding, do u test them lightly or do u put them in a really tough situation?
sk1ll3tfr34k 8 months ago
@sk1ll3tfr34k "if u wanna test someone to see if they will do ur bidding, do u test them lightly or do u put them in a really tough situation?"
If, as you claim, Abraham knew all along that God would never really ask him to sacrifice his son, then Abraham knew it was a bogus test. You need to think this one through a bit more.
ProfMTH 8 months ago
@ProfMTH i did not say that. i ASKED a question, so quit giving out bureaucratic language and answer it in a simple manner.
"If, as you claim, Abraham knew all along that God would never really ask him to sacrifice his son, then Abraham knew it was a bogus test."
how did he know that then? look at the culture back then. in Ur, the gods required sacrifices, including human sacrifices. Abraham chose to follow God b/c he thought God was different than the gods of Ur. he was right.
sk1ll3tfr34k 8 months ago
@sk1ll3tfr34k no not really. abraham was polytheist. allso, the god he worships is not the same as the god of moses. allso, not all gods even in that time demanded human sacrifce. human sacrifice has allwasy being taboo. and its only some rare cults that practice human sacrifice. cults like christianity. you have read too much propaganda.
gethsoftware 3 months ago
@gethsoftware I'd like to see a (1 [one]) primary document for those claims.
700bees 3 months ago
@gethsoftware how about providing passages from the Bible that say that Christians must offer a human sacrifice all the time? better yet, go to a pastor and bring up this case. he'll know more than i will about that. and also, open the Bible and see where it says "you must offer human sacrifice or perish in Hell".
sk1ll3tfr34k 3 months ago
@ProfMTH again, how would u know if sum1 had a complete loyalty and faith in u unless u test them?
sk1ll3tfr34k 8 months ago
@sk1ll3tfr34k " i did not say that. i ASKED a question"
Here are your words: "God is totally against human sacrifice, and Abraham knew that." Are you denying you said that?
ProfMTH 8 months ago
@ProfMTH provide the quote that said that.
my question for YOU is:
HOW WOULD U KNOW IF SOMEONE HAD A COMPLETE LOYALTY AND FAITH IN U UNLESS U TEST THEM?
answer the question, and stop avoiding it.
sk1ll3tfr34k 8 months ago
@sk1ll3tfr34k I'm sorry, I didn't catch your answer to my question. You did say "God is totally against human sacrifice, and Abraham knew that", didn't you? It seems *you* are the one doing the avoiding.
ProfMTH 8 months ago
@ProfMTH ok, now we're on the same page. if u pulled out my quote then yes i said that. now answer my question. i don't think i will state it again, since it's visible on my previous posts.
sk1ll3tfr34k 8 months ago
@sk1ll3tfr34k "yes i said that"
Finally. So since, as you assert, God was against human sacrifice *and* Abraham knew that, this "test" was really not a test at all, but rather an odd charade. My answer to your question is that, based on what you've said, it was no test at all.
ProfMTH 8 months ago
@ProfMTH:
Ive read the old testament, cover to cover, and i dont remember ANYWHERE, God forbidding human sacrifice.
I WAS looking for it, because i was disturbed by the way the sacrificial obediences DIDNT always specify animals, but SOMETIMES did" (suggesting that SOME sacrifices MAY not have been animal).
Also, i was shocked that priests, even today, refer to their congregation, as their FLOCK !
Why do that, when the old testament demanded the sacrifice of the "first born of the flock" ?
AnnoyingTypoSyndrome 8 months ago
@AnnoyingTypoSyndrome "Ive read the old testament, cover to cover, and i dont remember ANYWHERE, God forbidding human sacrifice."
but what did God do to nations who allowed, even upheld child sacrifice? HE DESTROYED THEM, LIKE HE DESTROYED ISRAEL WHEN THE ISRAELITES BEGAN THAT PRACTICE!
sk1ll3tfr34k 8 months ago
@sk1ll3tfr34k:
So you admit the jews DID do human / child sacrifice, then ?
AnnoyingTypoSyndrome 8 months ago
@AnnoyingTypoSyndrome let me point out a very important segment of what i typed:
WHAT DID GOD DO TO THE NATIONS THAT ALLOWED, EVEN UPHELD CHILD SACRIFICE? HE DESTROYED THEM, ***(LIKE HE DESTROYED ISRAEL WHEN THE ISRAELITES BEGAN THAT PRACTICE!)***
That one sentence piece shows very clearly that God is firmly against the practice of child sacrifice. the OT is filled w/ stories like these. if u truly read the OT, u would have realized this long before u made this film. apparantly u did...
sk1ll3tfr34k 8 months ago
@AnnoyingTypoSyndrome NOT realize this during ur readings.
sk1ll3tfr34k 8 months ago
@AnnoyingTypoSyndrome also, this question remains unanswered after a full two days:
HOW WOULD *(YOU)* KNOW IF SOMEONE HAD A COMPLETE LOYALTY AND FAITH IN *(YOU)* UNLESS *(YOU)* TEST THEM?
sk1ll3tfr34k 8 months ago
@sk1ll3tfr34k He destroyed nations all over the place, some because they were 'bad' according to him, some because they were in the way of the Isrealities and once just because the previous destruction of a city had failed and God needed to give him and his troops some loot. Oh wait he only attempted to do that, that invasion failed as well.
newperve 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@newperve "some because they were in the way of the Isrealities and once just because the previous destruction of a city had failed and God needed to give him and his troops some loot."
i suggest u re-read those stories. the Israelites asked for safe passage through some cities, but they were refused.
sk1ll3tfr34k 7 months ago
@sk1ll3tfr34k ahem. no not really. as the video states. yaweh likes the death and chaos. and there is one verified instance in bible where god takes blood sacrifice. allso. the caananites did not practice human sacrifice like the bible states. its kinda like ted hagard syndrome. jews are guilt of retrojecting. they project their own gods blood lust in to the gods of other nations. the claims about the human sacrifice was war time propaganda.
gethsoftware 3 months ago
@AnnoyingTypoSyndrome god says manythings, including that he cant lie. but then he lies, so the part about not being able to lie was a lie.
gethsoftware 3 months ago
@gethsoftware:
To be honest, i never read anywhere that he said he couldnt lie, either !
In fact, he claims he can do ANYTHING, so i'd guess lying is quite possible. HE certainly uses words and phrases which inlude "i will deceive your enemies" and "missguide" them (not quotes, just form memory).
He also sqays he HATES liers and murderers MOST OF ALL (suggesting he also hates other sinners), so hatred is not as ungodlike as the church claims - forgiveness is NOT essential ALL the time.
AnnoyingTypoSyndrome 3 months ago
@ProfMTH should i capitalize and emphasize the word YOU in that question?
HOW WOULD *(YOU)* KNOW IF SOMEONE HAD A COMPLETE LOYALTY AND FAITH IN *(YOU)* UNLESS *(YOU)* TEST THEM?
sk1ll3tfr34k 8 months ago
@ProfMTH "So since, as you assert, God was against human sacrifice *and* Abraham knew that, this "test" was really not a test at all, but rather an odd charade. My answer to your question is that, based on what you've said, it was no test at all."
so what u just told me is if i study for a final exam, and the teacher gives me a list of questions that MIGHT be on the test, and i ace the test, then it was not really a test, right?
sk1ll3tfr34k 8 months ago
@sk1ll3tfr34k "so what u just told me is if i study for a final exam, and the teacher gives me a list of questions that MIGHT be on the test, and i ace the test, then it was not really a test, right?"
No. However, what you've told me--albeit unintentionally--in this exchange is that you haven't thought this through, but rather you're just tossing stuff out that you hope defends your religious belief set. Get back to me if & when you've applied some thought to this & can follow an argument.
ProfMTH 8 months ago
@ProfMTH "No. However, what you've told me--albeit unintentionally--in this exchange is that you haven't thought this through, but rather you're just tossing stuff out that you hope defends your religious belief set."
lol that's basically what u told me in a nutshell. i just put it into a modern form for u
sk1ll3tfr34k 8 months ago
ok i only saw through 1:30 of the vid and i already have some serious issues.
first off, why would God order a human sacrifice if He was against it in the first place? the dunce who posted the vid left out the fact that God did that to test Abraham's faith. God is totally against human sacrifice, and Abraham knew that. God was looking for one of two reactions: Abraham questioning and disobeying God's command, or a total and complete surrender in carrying out His bidding.
sk1ll3tfr34k 8 months ago
The Mother of God has her own warning called the THIRD SECRET OF FATIMA.
FATIMAMOVEMENT d o t c o m
Pre-Novus Ordo Dogma and the miracles prove that The Mother of God is part of the Trinity.
Rome will be destroyed on August 17, 2011 for failing to preserve the Dogma.
Good luck, and remember that the Lord is a talking fire. Satan has deceived all nations.
fatimamovement 8 months ago
@fatimamovement wat u just said is all crap. how can God have a mother? if He does, prove that His mother is real, that she really is His mother, and that she is NOT human in any way.
also, provide evidence for the date of Rome's destruction. lol i guarantee u, that prediction is as faulty as the apocalypse on october 21, 2011
sk1ll3tfr34k 8 months ago
Well, I'm an atheist (of Jewish extraction) but the Jephthath story seems to be one of many such stories you find in myth and legend that falls into the category of the "ill-made vow or ill-made wish" and it generally follows a similar pattern. Somebody swears to something stupid, or wishes for something stupid. The terms of the vow are fulfilled or the stupid wish is granted - with easily seen disastrous results.
The King Midas story is in a similar vein - and ends with a solid gold daughter.
prodprod 9 months ago
(cont'd) (2) What's important to understand is that, just as pagan Gods were often depicted and worshiped in different aspects, sometimes as natural forces and sometimes as virtually human personifications, so the God of the bible, depending on the passage you're reading is depicted in very different ways -- sometimes as an essentially human figure, and sometimes as a kind of impersonal force.
prodprod 9 months ago
(cont'd) And there are definitely places in the Bible where God is depicted, essentially as a sort of "legalistic" force -- where he exists only as "that which enforces an oath" -- and does so essentially blindly -- like a force of nature. We not only see that in the Jephthah story but also in the story of Jacob stealing Esau's blessing from Isaac. This is a blessing from God -- how would God allow *his* blessing to be falsely conferred - through a trick.
prodprod 9 months ago
(cont'd)(4) But the blessing is like a vow. Once uttered, you are bound by it. And in these odd contexts, God as a "binding force" will hold you to a vow, even a terrible, ill-considered vow, or to a blessing, even one that has been wheedled out of you through trickery.
prodprod 9 months ago
@prodprod I agree.
ProfMTH 9 months ago
Jesus Christ is GOD
vizulfun 10 months ago
@vizulfun Not exactly a convincing argument.
beavisishere 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@beavisishere God was sacrificed . its not a argument . its a fact. i dont care if you believe it or not.
vizulfun 8 months ago
wow, just look at those 'offerings to Yahweh' mmm...delicious. I'd accept them.
tarnicles 11 months ago
another mentally ill person on the run
TheJasonking 11 months ago
There seems to be insufficient archeological evidence at this time to say for sure whether or not the ancient Hebrews or the Canaanites & other peoples around them practices human sacrifice. But Carthage, a Phoenician colony, certainly did, on a large scale, & since the Hebrews seem to have arisen from the ancient nations during the Bronze Age collapse rather than being a distinct people from the beginning, I think they very well might have practiced human sacrifice.
eumenidis 11 months ago
why would god command sacrafice? the forbidding of murder is in the ten commandments...dont get me wrong i believe in god but I think that biblical story is a bunch of crap or maybe misinturpreted, can i get a clean explination?
MistahGrinch 11 months ago
@MistahGrinch The commandment should rather be translated as "You shall not murder [another Israelite [illegally]]". Killing is alright by Yahweh as long as it's a non-israelite (in battles, for example) or when his laws say so (stoning children, for example).
Besides, there's only a few, few places where Yahweh forbids murder but a crapload of places where he orders systematic murder. If one of them is the exception, it's the "*Don't* kill" part.
Mankepanke 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@MistahGrinch Yeah, read it for yourself! It's all there in the Bible
Drewmck79 8 months ago
From Chabad.org "The Hebrew prefix "ו" which precedes the words "I will offer him" can be translated as "and" or "or."" Who knows the Hebrew language better than the Jews? Yes, I do struggle sometimes. Growth takes struggle. I struggle with, question and wrestle with God, but I never stop believing in Him.
rpbrooksbank 11 months ago
@rpbrooksbank I had a look at Chabad's comment on the story and note that it relied on a proposition that doesn't appear anywhere in the story and it changes words in the story, i.e., "If it will be a person, then it 'shall be [consecrated] to G‑d.' and if it should be an animal, then 'I will offer him as a burnt-offering.'" When someone has to change and/or add to a biblical story in order to save it from the problem(s) the text plainly presents, that just demonstrates the problem.
ProfMTH 11 months ago
(con't) @rpbrooksbank It's also worth noting that you failed to mention that Chabad's comment goes on to talk about how the story is quite consistent with the proposition that Jephthah "went ahead and offered his daughter as a sacrifice."
ProfMTH 11 months ago
@ProfMTH Are you saying that it is impossible for mistranslations to appear in the Bible? The part I quoted was and is a plausible explanation, and has been put forth by more than just that one website.
rpbrooksbank 11 months ago
@rpbrooksbank "Are you saying that it is impossible for mistranslations to appear in the Bible?"
Nope.
"The part I quoted was & is a plausible explanation, & has been put forth by more than just that one website."
As I showed, the "explanation" as offered by Chabad requires modifications to the text. So, if one defines 'plausible' to mean "makes sense if I change the story", then, yes, it's plausible. By itself, the and-or thing makes the vow nonsensical. Nonsense is never plausible.
ProfMTH 11 months ago
I'm implying that He was fully human and fully God. It was the sacrifice of God the Son that paid for our sins. Not the sacrifice of Jesus the man. His life was given, not taken. He redeemed us. Just like the Israelites were commanded to redeem their firstborn males.
rpbrooksbank 11 months ago
@rpbrooksbank "I'm implying that He was fully human and fully God. It was the sacrifice of God the Son that paid for our sins. Not the sacrifice of Jesus the man."
Hebrews 10:10, "[W]e have been sanctified through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ." Was that *not* a human body, a man's body?
"His life was given, not taken."
Well, according to the Gospel of John, yes. It has Jesus pretty much committing suicide, with the crucifixion as a sort of stage for his suicide to occur.
ProfMTH 11 months ago
(con't) @rpbrooksbank See, e.g., Tertullian, who in his Apology claims that on the cross Jesus "with a word expressing his own will dismissed his spirit, forestalling the work of the executioners."
But there are lots of other passages that in the New Testament that talk about Jesus being killed. So it is a mixed bag of claims, as is true of so many topics in the Bible.
ProfMTH 11 months ago
@ProfMTH It was the body of God the Son.
rpbrooksbank 11 months ago
much more in line with the rest of scripture, IMHO. I'm not one to deny that translation errors are impossible. There are numerous verses that tell of God's abhorrence of human sacrifice, and not just to other God's. I will end by saying that God does welcome questions, and that's a good thing. Because I've got a lot of them.
rpbrooksbank 11 months ago
@rpbrooksbank "Jesus's sacrifice was not a human sacrifice. Jesus was God."
You're not suggesting that Jesus wasn't fully human, too, are you?
"Jephthah's vow is something that I have struggled with. I admit that."
Excellent. It's among the many things in the Jewish and Christian scriptures that *should* cause believers to struggle.
"The word for "and" in Hebrew...can also be translated as "or". "
What is the basis for this claim? Thanks.
ProfMTH 11 months ago
Jephthah's vow is something that I have struggled with. I admit that. However, I have come across a very convincing argument that may help. The word for "and" in Hebrew from " whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD’s, AND I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.” can also be translated as "or". Which means that the vow could have been "I will give into your service or offer as a burnt sacrifice." This seems much (cont.)
rpbrooksbank 11 months ago
I will attempt this. 1). The Spirit of God does not prompt Jephthah to make his vow. The Spirit prompts him to go against the enemy. 2). The Bible also says that we are to redeem the firstborn males. The firstborn males are God's, but instead of giving them into his service, offering them up to God, we are to redeem them. You need to read more than just the passages presented to you. 3). Jesus's sacrifice was not a human sacrifice. Jesus was God.
rpbrooksbank 11 months ago
Every so often you hear a crazy story in the news about a mom who drowns her 3 kids because "god told her to do it". If you believe in the bible then you have to admit that it is possible that God may ask you to murder your children some day as a test of faith.
HuckMeHard 1 year ago
@HuckMeHard I've had Christians here on YouTube tell me unequivocally that if their god directed them to kill their children, they would do so.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
Every word of the bible is the perfect and literal word of God... except that part. I really love your vids and you have the patience of Job (hehe) when answering apologists' comments. I've played some of them for family members and I honestly give u credit for them sort of downgrading to loosely cultural xtians.
krunk1980 1 year ago
@krunk1980 Thanks a lot.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
ProfMTH, As I've said, You will never understand GOD until you receive Understanding by His Holy Spirit. The Bible says that "...man's ways are not GOD's Ways. GOD's Ways are higher than man's." Because we are sinful beings, we have cut ourselves off from the true Source of Life. In order to understand what is True in life, and in this Universe, we have to get ourselves re-connected to this Life-Source, the Creator GOD. This is not a cop-out explanation, ProfMTH, it's just the truth.
gdg1963 1 year ago
@gdg1963 "As I've said, You will never understand GOD until you receive Understanding by His Holy Spirit."
And as I've said, the "Christians have special or unique knowledge" assertion is one of the last refuges of an apologist who, like you, lacks an argument. Don't waste my time or yours merely repeating yourself.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH , I had to repeat myself because you weren't believing the Truth when I stated it the first time. I've given you plenty of truths for you to consider and run with. It is your stubborn heart that refuses to realize, and admit, that you cannot understand GOD and His Ways without His personal Intervention in your heart. As long as you continue to believe that you "understand just fine" the Bible, when you clearly don't, then you'll never allow GOD to help you to understand His Scriptures.
gdg1963 1 year ago
@gdg1963 YOU didn't even answer his questions
savibang4412 11 months ago
As for poor Jephthah, and his even more unfortunate daughter, the main point is, is that GOD highly values the keeping of one's word, regardless of the price, because HE Himself keeps HIS Word regardless of the Price. That's why YAHUSHUA warns to let our "Yes" be "Yes" and our "No" be "No", for anything other than that is from evil. He also warns to not make a vow to GOD at all, especially if there's a chance that we will not keep it. For, GOD takes Promises seriously. Read PSALM 15:4b!
gdg1963 1 year ago
@gdg1963 "keeping vows & promises are of uttermost importance to ELOHIM."
Even when the vow involves killing one's child?
"He was testing or proving Abraham's obedience."
Didn't this omnipotent god already know whether Abraham would be obedient? Why did he need this test to prove it?
"As for poor Jephthah, and his even more unfortunate daughter, the main point is, is that GOD highly values the keeping of one's word...."
Even when one promises to do something horribly wrong?
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH , YAHUSHUA said "Do not swear (make a vow) before GOD's Throne..." He's saying that we don't have the assurance that we will want to even keep a particular vow, or even if we did, we don't even know what the full price will be to keep said vow. So, it's best not to make a vow before the GOD Who takes vow-keeping seriously. So, He says we are to say "Yes" if that's what we mean. Or, to say "No.". Anything else results from evil, or will cause unecessary hurt or damage.
gdg1963 1 year ago
@ProfMTH , Yes, GOD knew Abraham inside-and-out. But, GOD had to exercise Abraham's faith so that he could grow in his Faith. For, as followers of GOD, we still have free-will, and we can choose, at any time, to disobey GOD and live however we want. (There are "christians" who are Hell-bound for living in disobedience and sin, even though they don't believe they could end up in Hell. But, that's another Chapter.) Abraham's sacrifice was an "incidental foreshadowing" of GOD's ultimate Sacrifice.
gdg1963 1 year ago
With Abraham and Isaac, GOD was doing at least a couple of things there. He was testing or "proving" Abraham's obedience. For, Obedience, also, is of high-grade importance to GOD. Secondly, by this would-have-been act of Abraham sacrificing his only son, YAHUVEH was helping us to understand, in a human way, what HE was going to do with HIS One and only begotten Son in the future, on the Tree of Golgotha. The act served as a foreshadowing and a reminder of GOD sending mankind a Saviour, a Lamb.
gdg1963 1 year ago
First thing is that GOD is a GOD Who keeps His Word. When HE makes a Promise, a Vow, a Covenant, you can always bet your very last copper penny that He will keep said Promises. It is His Character to do so. He values keeping Promises. And, He deems it the thing for His people to do also. If His people makes promises or vows to HIM or to someone else, GOD expects them to keep them. HE says to "be ye holy as I AM Holy.". So, keeping vows and promises are of uttermost importance to ELOHIM.
gdg1963 1 year ago
Jehovah also never objected to the sacrificed of seven people by King David atop a hill to appease him for a famine
BoricuaChiTown 1 year ago
Christians ignore what makes them look bad and cherry picks what makes them look good.
PriestChristopher 1 year ago
If these and many other Biblical stories were in any other books, they would be denounced, and self-appointed committees would be lobbying to keep them out of libraries.
txvoltaire 1 year ago
@txvoltaire Indeed.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
One point most christians ignore is that when the daughter comes out to greet Jephthah, he tears his clothing. Christians ignore it because they don't understand its significance. There is a jewish tradition in which you are supposed to tear your clothing upon hearing about the death of a loved one.
sleazybtd 1 year ago
@sleazybtd
But one of the kings did also rip his clothes when he heard they weren't following Yahweh's law after all. (One must wonder why he didn't figure this out earlier, but you know...) Isn't tearing clothes a way of mourning something in general?
laflugantabastardo 1 year ago
Jesus was nothing BUT a human sacrifice. How does taking an innocent person off the street and killing him for someone elses crime make the guilty person innocent in ANYONES eyes?! Whats more, sealing the deal by pretending to eat the dead mans flesh and drink his blood? Christianity is caveman religion, nothing new, and makes no sense. If the wages of sin is death, we ALL die, and therefore would pay for our OWN sins when we die. No human sacrifice required. Besides, jesus didnt STAY dead!
MrHobiecat 1 year ago
I wonder why the daughter went away and "bewailed her virginity" instead of going away to bewail her imminent death? Seems a bit odd to worry about one's virginity in light of certain death by burnt offering. A bit more digging and I think you'll find the answer. FATB has a valid point about the use of the word "or" in verse 31.
FortheLuIz 1 year ago
@FortheLuIz "A bit more digging and I think you'll find the answer."
I'm quite confident that I have found the answer. Am I to understand that you believe you have a different answer? If so, please do share.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@FortheLuIz well never to have someone you fell in love with.Never to have a child or to be a mother would be a terrible thing for sure.Of course though she did go with friends so maybe she wasn't a virgin by the time she returned.Her mistake to me is not taking those 2 months to get as far away from her father as possible.Let him deal with the little problem of not being able to keep his promise.
gamesmaster35 1 year ago
@FortheLuIz verse 38 gives the answer why she went to bewail " She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children."
maxsalhab 1 year ago
@maxsalhab Because she was going to be killed.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH exactly, because you are going to be killed, you, of course can't partake in the other joys of life such as having kids, etc. I'm not sure if FotheLulz is suggesting that she was not killed, or that the sacrifice was something else, but I think the verses are pretty clear.
maxsalhab 1 year ago
this is powerful...i think the bible has been tampered with to much...shalom!
champ23100 1 year ago
Deut 12:31 “You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.”
The Christian God appears to be a hypocrite when comes to human sacrifice.
dvkuth 1 year ago
The others have leeway in their interpretations IMO, but the Jephthah one... seems pretty airtight. Only thijng that can be said there is that God was neutral about the sacrifice... so maybe he was in the bathroom for those two months.
Paur 1 year ago
Ick. Sick.
Prelude610 1 year ago
How many times have you heard this one.
O GOD if you just get me home safely without the police catching me,
I'll never drink again....... and this time I mean it.
God never demanded the sacrifice in the first place. It sounds like, He just wanted to win.
Jesus is defiantly a human sacrifice, Wasn't that the whole point? for him to feel real pain.
Of course to all of us Pastafarian, The flying spaghetti monster offered up a noodley appendage to spare us.
pumpstations 1 year ago
God forbids human sacrificesread Deuteronomy 18:10 and 2 Kings 21:6
God offering the essence of Himself is human sacrifice? Human sacrifice always involved victims who were either a) deceived; b) unwilling. Jesus was neither
Exodus 22:29 is not referring to sacrifice, but to service. No one sacrificed fruits and liquors on an altar.
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
1.Literal “burnt offerings” HAD TO BE male. Jephthah’s daughter obviously wasn’t.
2.The primary concern of his daughter was that she wouldn’t get to marry. This would not make sense if she was really going to be killed.
3.As the only child, and if given to the priest in this fashion, Jephthah’s entire estate would go to someone else.
4.Burnt offerings were ALWAYS associated with condemnation/evil–not thanksgiving and vows.
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
5.He would have had to offer her at some cultic site, which would have had a priest. There would be absolutely no chance whatsoever that the priest would agree to perform a human sacrifice.
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
@FarAwayTheBest "Human sacrifice always involved victims who were either a) deceived; b) unwilling."
Really? What's your basis for that claim? And even if it were true, that wouldn't mean that a human *willing* to sacrifice himself was any less a human sacrifice than someone who wasn't willing.
As for the Jephthah story, it says what it says. I understand that what it says is unappealing. But that doesn't change the text of the story.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH
Jesus was not a victim; He was the priestly offerer, not much like the cruel human sacrifices we hear from the Aztecs
Did God approve of the sinful actions of those who killed Jesus? Absolutely not. In fact, Peter explained that those who killed Jesus had done so with “lawless hands” (Acts 2:23). He further explained that they had to repent of their sins or they would be lost forever (Acts 2:38).
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
@FarAwayTheBest
While God used the sinful actions of Jesus’ murderers to bring about His purposes (Acts 3:17-19), He never condoned those actions. Those who murdered Jesus violated God’s law; they did not accomplish their dastardly deeds at God’s request, nor with His approval.
There is no indication that God approved of Jephthah’s vow and you still didn't explain the 5 evidences I gave for this, neither did you explain my response to Exodus 22:29 or how God indeed forbids human sacrifice
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
@FarAwayTheBest "Jesus was not a victim; He was the priestly offerer, not much like the cruel human sacrifices we hear from the Aztecs."
You are mythologizing Jesus' execution--something Christians have been doing since the earliest days of the movement in order to find meaning in their leader's being brutally killed. In any case, nothing you've said concludes to the proposition that Jesus' execution cannot be regarded as a human sacrifice within the context of Christianity.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
(con't) @FarAwayTheBest "Did God approve of the sinful actions of those who killed Jesus?"
Your Bible says that your god predestined all of the players in Jesus' execution to do what they did (see, e.g., Acts 2:23, Acts 4:27-28). How odd that people doing what the biblical god predestined them to do could be regarded as "sinful actions" of which this god disapproves.
"God used the sinful actions of Jesus’ murderers"
Your Bible says he predestined those actions to happen, that all...
ProfMTH 1 year ago
(con't) @FarAwayTheBest ...involved did "whatever [the biblical god's] hand and purpose predestined to occur" (Acts 4:28). Your god made it all happen; the actors had no choice.
"they did not accomplish their dastardly deeds at God’s request"
Again, they did what they were predestined to do. Why don't you believe your Bible?
"There is no indication that God approved of Jephthah’s vow...."
Yahweh gave him the victory he sought in exchange for the vow. Sounds like approval to me.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH
Oh wow, I never expected this, you're actually right about Jesus, unbelievable...i'm speechless about this
Nonetheless, I insist Jephthah daughter wasn't a sacrifice, sacrifices were always male and the Biblical God forbade human sacrifices in quite a couple of places, not just regarding pagan gods, it wasn't like god ordered human sacrifices and said that it had a good smell or sth
I believe the Bible, it's amazing how such a large book with different authors has no contradictions
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
@ProfMTH
mythologizing Jesus? What do you mean?
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
@FarAwayTheBest "Nonetheless, I insist Jephthah daughter wasn't a sacrifice...."
OK. The story says she was, but you are, of course, free to believe whatever you like.
"...the Bible, it's amazing how such a large book with different authors has no contradictions."
It's riddled with contradictions. But I have plenty of videos on that for you to watch.
"mythologizing Jesus?"
Mythologizing his execution: in a nutshell, attributing some significance to it after the fact.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH
"OK. The story says she was, but you are, of course, free to believe whatever you like."
Nowhere does it say she was sacrificed. oh but it said "he did to her according to her vow", yes, but this text can also be translateed "or i shall give it to the lord's"...what if he met a fly the first thing would he sacrifice a fly? Don't get too literal now
Or is i the end of it, are you not going to try and convince me I'm wrong at all?
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
@FarAwayTheBest "Nowhere does it say she was sacrificed...."
I covered this in the video in great detail. Judges 11:30-31, "Jephthah made a vow to Yahweh and said, 'If you will indeed give the sons of Ammon into my hand,
then it shall be that whatever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the sons of Ammon, it shall be Yahweh's, and I will offer it up as a burnt offering.'" Yahweh "gave them into his hand" (vs. 32), Jephthah's daughter was the first...
ProfMTH 1 year ago
(con't) @FarAwayTheBest ...out of the house to greet him (vs. 34), and Jephthah "did to her according to the vow which he had made" (vs. 39)--again, the vow was to offer as a burnt offering to Yahweh whatever came out of the door of his house first. The text could not be plainer here.
"are you not going to try and convince me I'm wrong at all?"
I did a video on this. I've gone over it in comments with you. In sum, I *have* showed you that you're wrong. You choose not to recognize it.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH
"It's riddled with contradictions. But I have plenty of videos on that for you to watch."
Yeah, but there isn't much meaning to watch them if you're just going to ignore me when I answer your objections like you did with Jephthah, what's the meaning of watching the videos of someone who's not willing to listen to the other side? It can only convince the already convinced and perhaps frustrate some others
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
@FarAwayTheBest " if you're just going to ignore me when I answer your objections"
I haven't ignored your objections. But I'm not going to waste my time covering, recovering, and recovering yet again the same territory. I set the matter out in detail the video; I went over it with you in some detail in response to your comments. That's an odd notion of "ignoring" you have there. In any case, when an interloctutor of mine makes it clear that s/he has determined not to believe what the...
ProfMTH 1 year ago
(con't) ...text of a biblical story plainly says, I feel no obligation to go round and round in circles, repeating myself and repeatedly answering the same objections. If that's what you're after, this isn't the channel for you.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH
Did you even listen to what I said?
Ethelbert William Bullinger, looks at the word "and" in the Jephthah's vow (Judges 11:31). As he explains the Hebrew prefix "ו" that is translated in the above passage as "and" is often used as a disjunctive, and means "or", when there is a second proposition. Indeed this rendering is suggested in the margin of the A.V. Bullinger goes on to give examples from the Bible where the same word has been translated as "or".
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
@FarAwayTheBest
According to him, the right translation of this passage is: "whatever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the people of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, or I will offer it up as a burnt offering." Jephthah's daughter, being the first that came out of the house, was thus, according to Bullinger, dedicated to God
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
@ProfMTH
I know you're a great guy inside, open your heart a bit to what believers have to say, you could do great things for Christianity if you just willed it
The bible is a huge book with a colorful history, don't think you know everything about it, no matter how much you studied it.
Do you at least agree that the Exodus passage isn't referring to a human sacrifice?
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
@FarAwayTheBest "Do you at least agree that the Exodus passage isn't referring to a human sacrifice?"
I was tentative about the Exodus passage. Yes, it's quite possible that it is not a reference to human sacrifice at all. The Jephthah story, however, quite clearly *is* about a human sacrifice.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH
Jephthah’s action may best be understood by recognizing that he was using ‘olah in a figurative sense. We use the term when we say, “I’ll sacrifice a few dollars for that charity.” Jephthah was offering to sacrifice a member of his extended household to permanent, religious service associated with the Tabernacle. The Bible indicates that such non-priestly service was available, particularly to women who chose to so dedicate themselves (e.g., Exodus 38:8).
FarAwayTheBest 1 year ago
@FarAwayTheBest "Jephthah was offering to sacrifice a member of his extended household to permanent, religious service associated with the Tabernacle."
Again, NOT what the story says. No doubt it