Ligon Duncan - What Does The Sovereignty Of God Mean?

[onlyway2christ1]

Many say God gave man freewill (fw) choice But I say if that's so true that fw was given to Adam and Eve, then was it their choice that God put Satan here on earth in the first place? God made everything preparing the world as a battle field in the beginning of time. Even before God created time he knew what His plans were. Now through the Cross we can now enter into One Body in Heaven! Gen.2:9&17 - 3:1-14 Prov.16:4 Rom8:20-21 2Cor 11:3 Col1:16 etc We're not puppets - robots but Soldiers!!!

[polopowers1]

God controls but man has to be responsible?So if man is not responsible God's will could be thwarted?This is not sovereignty but choice working out for good to be God's will.Because I believe God ordain yet I'm still responsible because I don't know God's ordained will.But God is not struggling to get His will done ever! I'm not a robot Ive been made to know God objectively but I'm subjective to His already ordained will.This is nonsense to think man must cooperate for God's will to be done.

[davidatheist]

The concepts of theology are not that difficult and Dawkens I am sure understands them fully they go as follows.

1)I am scared of dying

2)I am scared of the unknown

3)When I was a kid I found reassurance from my dad

4)My dad is dead

5)Did I mention I am scared of dying.

6)I wish I still had my dad

7)Therefore there is a god/dad who made everything and cares about me and will make me live forever.

[davidatheist]

Part 1

There are many reasons for talking Christians and other religious people out of there faith I will list them.

1)The less people believe in god the more productive they will be as they wont wast there time asking for favours from a nonexistent being.

2)The less people that believe in god the fewer the people willing to kill for there god.

3)The truth is important if people come to the truth through reason then I would feel that I have done them a good deed.

[davidatheist]

Part 2

4)Religions disseminate disinformation and lies about health and sex in particular regarding HIV and homosexuality.

5)I like arguing and because religious people take there 2000+ year old tribalism so seriously one gets heated although rather childish arguments.

So is that enough reasons for an atheist to want to argue about religion with the religious. Please keep it on topic instead of straying down the pathetic path of personal insults.

[gregormann7]

David. My apology for calling you a DUNCE. Forgive me. Believe it or not, I actually have a lot of sympathy for some of what lies beneath your thinking concerning 'religion.' Religion, per se, is a purely human attempt to conceive of God and figure out a way to control bad behavior. There is a veritable fog of religious notions and pretentions all clamoring for attention and allegiance. They can't all be right. But they could all be wrong. Fair enough? Can we shake on that much?

[gregormann7]

If you have an implacable hostility to the Bible as the means of divine revelation, then we are at a dead end. All I can say in an attempt to awaken you from your stupor, I have already said. Please consider these words: If there is no God (the God of the Bible, i.e.) then it cannot possibly matter what else you do or don't do. It's a wash in the end. Meanwhile, all this back-and-forth is nothing more than an exercise in futility. And I don't see how you can face existence on those terms.

[gregormann7]

@gregormann7 If the Bible were true (I say 'if' for the sake of argument), then we might expect it to contain a 'directive' from the one true living God as follows: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image..." The 2nd commandment. This means we are not permitted to 'conceive'

of 'God' in terms of our own imagination. Either God has revealed Himself, or we cannot have true knowledge of Him. Therefore, no Bible, no actual, REAL 'theology'. 'Religions' do not conform to this standard.

[davidatheist]

Who are you to say my existence is futile if there is no god. I am enjoying myself in the present I am not harming anyone and I doing good for society and eventually I will make way for other people to do the same. Why do I need an external agent to validate my existence and make my life worth living? My life is worth living unto its self.

[gregormann7]

@gregormann7 In other words, I am noting the inescapable fact that it is irrational to say your life has 'meaning' and 'purpose' merely on the basis of some momentary self-satisfaction. If your existence does not have any ultimate CONSEQUENCE, what meaning does it really have? From a purely philosophical standpoint, you cannot maintain the claim of rationality apart from a personal, eternal, absolute Being whose existence gives meaning to all other things.

[onlyway2christ1]

@gregormann7 Because the best person that ever existed in the whole human race, still fell short WAY SHORT of God's HOLY GLORY!!! We are all like filthy rags and need the Holiness of God through the Blood of Jesus!!!

[davidatheist]

@gregormann7 I am honestly dont see why my life needs to be eternal or a god needs to exist for rationality to exist. That god even if a god created the universe on what basis would its interpretation of what is rational be any better than mine.

[gregormann7]

@davidatheist Your life is NOT eternal. Only God is 'eternal' by definition--no beginning or end--unless you think there is a rational argument for the eternality of the universe. But as a thinking, feeling, rational being, with memory, and expectation, the idea of inevitable obliteration must have the force of negation, which makes our lives utterly futile in an ultimate sense--apart from God. That thought is unbearable, which drives us, at a minimum, to consider the claims of Scripture.

[davidatheist]

It may well be unbearable to think life will end in oblivion for someone who has grown up expecting to never have an end to there existence. But for me I have never had any strong beliefs in an afterlife so now that I have come to think an afterlife is unlikely it is bearable though it is a bit of downer some times. Of course wether something is bearable or not has no impact on its truthfulness. So I just have to get on with living.

[gregormann7]

"...wether something is bearable or not has no impact on its truthfulness..." Well said! God must actually be real, or all bets are off. Biblical assertions would be moot otherwise. So the question really has to do with logical consistency in the opposing claims: a) there is no God, but life is still meaningful; vs b) God's existence fills life with meaning, specifically because there is PURPOSE on the one hand, and CONSEQUENCE on the other. Human MEANING is a function of these two things.

[onlyway2christ1]

@davidatheist Hey Dave, you don't believe in afterlife? I use 2 feel the same but told God to reveal urself 2 me IF U R SO TRUE,,, and sure enough, HE DID!!! Just about 40 minutes after I yelled at God he answered me, as I am now saved, set free and growing more w/Jesus!!! Dave, try Jesus man. Give it a shot, cause ETERNITY is a VERY LONG TIME, and I KNOW that I surely don't wanna go 2 Hell, but instead Heaven For Ever and Ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[davidatheist]

@onlyway2christ1 I doubt very much that we have ever felt the same way about an afterlife but anyway I am manly interested in what form god revealing its self to you took and why you think it is real.

[AspiringDrummer]

@davidatheist

Read the book "More Than A Carpenter" or "The Case for Faith"

Both of these books are super legit if you have questions about your faith! They helped me to find mine and I hope you will find them as useful!

[davidatheist]

@AspiringDrummer thanks but i have no faith and never have had any, so i dont think i will find these books that useful.

[Imaginefree69]

Isaiah 63:17

WHY, O LORD, do YOU CAUSE US TO STRAY FROM Your ways

And HARDEN OUR HEART from fearing You?

Jesus did much the same sort of thing

when he deliberately hid the truth from his listeners.

Romans 9:18 "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

Now THAT's what I call sovereignty!