C-Span Pamela Hess On Iraq

[gabecollett]

this woman has a thingfor men with power

[FireOFK]

its not an easy task in iraq but it can be done. sure the insurgents are doing everything to show that can not be done and they get support from other places. but it will take some time and effort. we as Kurds will always support USA and democracy if you don't back away from us for political interest. I strongly believe its in our and USA interest to be good friends

[psyblade73]

Thanks for participating in the discussion. We need to hear more from real people and less from the media garbage. I hear things are doing real well in the north of Iraq. I hope people catch on and realize how important this is.

[aprilmegan]

It is so good to see a reporter who is also a real person.

[psyblade73]

And reporting on what she saw and not giving talking points. I thought it was nice too.

[psyblade73]

Turtleproof you are just dreaming. Catch a clue.

[psyblade73]

Getting out now is dumb and selfish. That is what I think this lady is talking about. To say we are the ones that are causing the problems there is ridiculous. And to say that our presence gets in the way is just clueless.

[Turtleproof]

Try making arguments rather than just adjectives like "ridiculous" and "clueless." The Iraqis want us to leave and the invasion was immoral, there's nothing selfish about wanting to leave. It is not ridiculous to claim that bombing cities, destroying utilities, and disbanding the government didn't at least contribute to the pandemonium in the country right now. Controlling all of Iraq's oil doesn't compare to being outbid for oil by China, not to mention the UN sanctions that were in place.

[psyblade73]

Try making arguments rather than just adjectives like "immoral". We never did and still don't get much oil from Iraq and Iran. There is no bidding war for oil. We were the ones who pursued the sanctions.

[Turtleproof]

"We never did and still don't get much oil from Iraq ..."

The size of the strategic oil reserve has doubled.

The United Nations imposed the sanctions, though businesses in the US and other nations defrauded them.

[nichtidentisches]

It would just be fair to get SOME of the oil to cover all the costs. Now people think, just because a multinational oil-company has the right to buy oil from iraq, this would be all for USA.

[psyblade73]

As far as the situation in Iraq, has it been made worse? People being gased in the North. People being thrown off buildings. People being stoned in the street. Violence and oppression against women. People being executed for political decension. Lots of torture. Don't forget the mass graves and the terrorist training. All state sponsored.

[Turtleproof]

The rate of death may have climbed since invasion. Before sanctions, Iraq was a progressive Arab nation with public healthcare and adequate education. Women could attend school and pursue a career.

There was no significant level of terrorist training in Iraq.

There is torture, execution, and high mortality in Iraq right now, much of it the result of US policy to use terror attacks and torture against Iraqis. Electricity and clean water production are below pre-invasion levels.

[psyblade73]

I don't know where you think you got this information from but I have actual friends that used to live there and your description, Turtleproof, seems ridiculous in comparison to their description. The idea that tortue, executions and high mortality in Iraq is due to US policy is delusional. For example, the 50 mass graves found in the Baghdad area have nothing to do with the US.

[Turtleproof]

I'm using facts that can be cited from the CIA world factbook and humanitarian organizations. If you really had "friends" then your stories would be accurate.

Indeed, the graves you mention have nothing to do with the US, but roughly 500,000 Iraqi deaths since 2003 do. Those mass graves may have been from the Iran-Iraq war, I haven't seen a definitive investigation done yet.

[psyblade73]

you are a liar. the cia world factbook and "humanitarian organizations" do not say that Everything was beautiful in Iraq until the americans came to torture and kill people. You are pseudo intellectual that uses misinformation and propaganda to generate faulty conclusions. Pathetic.

[Turtleproof]

I did not say that Iraq was beautiful. In any Western nation, female access to jobs and education wouldn't be noteworthy. You're letting your obsession with Iraq propoganda distort your view of everything, even the things I'm trying to say to you. I use facts, I only fault you for basing your opinions on sentiment and propoganda than what is truly there. If you don't believe me, look up a credible summary on Iraq as a nation prior to the Iran-Iraq war and sanctions.

[nichtidentisches]

So female access to jobs, that it is, what Saddam was about? He had decapitated several hundred women on his "day for the honour of the islamic woman" as prostitutes. His Family had the right to rape and kill whoever they want.

Today, every american soldier, that really commits warcrimes, can be sentenced, even to death, by the american law. So thats the usual ugly thing with war. Saddams war was far beyound normal war and it was a steady war against outer and inner enemies.

[Turtleproof]

These facts do not contradict the other facts I presented. Yes, the world is complex, and positing historical truth is in no way defending Saddam.

Prosecuting actual warcrimes is difficult because 100% of the blame for what happened at Abu Grahib and other places was put on the soldiers, despite the fact that they were merely following policy (it's still a crime, but they were not "bad apples"). It's not a good time to be a soldier in the US military.

[nichtidentisches]

Aha. Ahahaha. Just a sarcastic laughter. Read "Republic of fear" by Kanan Makyia.

[psyblade73]

Figures that a conspiracy nut like you discounts any information that doesn't fit your agenda. Good luck on the quest to try to feel important. You'll catch a clue to what is really going on in the world soon enough. Stop buying starbucks and save money so you can travel and actually talk to people of other countries. Instead of reading blogs in a dark basement.

[Turtleproof]

Pardon, but I've referred to facts whereas you have referred to your instincts and feelings, as well as propoganda descriptions of Iraq as a military threat to the United States. I'm trying to inform you only the most fundamental facts about the Iraq invasion, which I consider important, rather than the goal of feeding my ego. I do not drink Starbucks. :)

[psyblade73]

pardon, I never talked about Iraq as a threat, never talked about my feelings, or instincts. I talked about what someone who lived there told me. Your "facts"... not so factual sorry to say. You are the one that is obsessed and looking all over the internet for information. I don't need all of that because I have access to information from people who have lived there. A little hint for you, look up James Baker's law firm. Look for whom he has represented.

[Turtleproof]

I'm not looking all over the Internet: you're not looking at any facts at all. There's no shame in your state of ignorance, I'm ignorant about countless subjects from agriculture to molecular mechanics.

I used the strongest justification for the war, that Iraq was "an immanent threat," pardon if that was incorrect. There must be some reason why you think it's moral to launch terror attacks against civilians, invade a nation, torture its citizens, and govern them against their will.

[psyblade73]

I don't think any of those things are acceptable Mr. Turtle. I don't agree with you that it is happening. You believe it is happening because information have gotten you believe is credible. I don't believe it is happening because the information I have gotten I believ is credible. It is ok to disagree. I respect your opinion.

[psyblade73]

Sorry to say Mr. Turtle, I'm not willfully ignorant. I'm sure that is your hope, because then you might have been right. Let us just agree to disagree and let history be the judge.

[Turtleproof]

I have presented you with the history and you have refused to accept it. I don't wish you to be ignorant, that is why I talk to you. My goal is to present the most basic of facts about issues that are presented as impossibly complex. That way, people can make intelligent judgements about the more complex questions of a given situation, where anyone's *educated* guess is as valuable as the next.

[psyblade73]

History? Please. You just don't get it. It is such a simple concept. What I'm telling you is the information you believe to be "history" or "facts" may not be as solid as you might think. You may be getting the wrong information. I'm suggesting that maybe you should check on that before "educating" anyone. The information that you regurgitate is easy to find on propaganda sites.

[Turtleproof]

Explain. For example, weapons inspectors were in Iraq and their searches were productive. Because I am not a liberal or conservative fanatic, I keep in mind that the inspections were NOT FINISHED. But, rather than finish the inspections, Mr. Bush ordered them to leave and ordered an invasion, claiming that not finding them was proof that they were hidden. Not everything about this is so easy, but these events are irrefutable fact, all public information.

[psyblade73]

Not even what you are saying about the inspectors is irrefutable. The inspectors were kicked out at one point (and then left on their own because they were frustrated with limited access) and Bush does not have the authority to order UN inspectors to leave. It was the basis of one of the resolutions. The UN is as corrupt as it gets too, so who the hell knows. I don't think we should trust any government agency.

[psyblade73]

Turtle you are a 22 year old, don't try to "educate" people. You are just getting your foot wet in this stuff. Seriously and with all due respect, don't be so arrogant. You do not hold a monopoly on history or the truth. You are just starting to get oriented, relax, be humble, challenge, but don't be a kid about it. Kids are the ones who think they know everything, you are not a teenager anymore. Your response to me pointing out that I knew people that lived there, was to call me a liar.

[Turtleproof]

This isn't arrogance or knowing everything. Assessing the situation as it is, I know that there are volumes of information that is totally unknown to me because it is classified, unreported, or I haven't read about it. But, there are simple, totally public facts that some poeple continue to ignore. At the top of this list are the number of people that still think Saddam had WMD and still think he was in cahoots with Al Queda.

[psyblade73]

Why not cooperate with UN if he did not have anything to worry about? Why 17 resolutions? What about the fact he had used chemical weapons on 2 very clear occassions? Where would it have gone? Why does the Sarin gas stockpiles? Why did we find documentation of program, and some facilities but no big stockpiles? If there some, where did it go? Could it have gone somewhere since invasion was announced? There are lots of questions and not very many answers comming from anyone.

[psyblade73]

Come on Turtle. You are better than that. Do you really think that you know so much more than most of the population (who have been around longer than you) that you go on YOUTUBE to "educate" people? Know your role man. If you want to teach people go to a site for kids.

[Turtleproof]

I can objectively say that I do, because what I am "educating" people about is for one extremely simple, totally public, and nearly all of it are things that people already know yet refuse to accept.

[psyblade73]

I'm really glad you are interested. The way we do get a handle on thinks is to really participate in local politics and decentralize things again. As long as we don't participate and let feds have this much power, we have no say. This would be a Jeffersonian stance and would fall in concert with Adam Smith's original view of the federal government as only "the Nightwatchman". Then the feds can't hide their work with all this other crap that should be done at the state level.

[nichtidentisches]

Enough of them are killed by Saddams "anti-insurgency" operations, namely "Anfal I" against the Kurds and "Anfal II" against the Shiites. "Anfal III" is used to circumscribe the larger operation of drying out the marshs and swamplands in southern iraq.

I think it is well investigated up to now. I mean, not every detail, but one can have the clue.

[psyblade73]

I'll give you one example for your edification, of a real life story from a friend of mine that I met in the graduate program I went to.

[psyblade73]

Her family was percecuted for being Bahaii. They were forced out of business, had difficulty getting employment, were assaulted by other citizens multiple times, etc... Her family was arrested multiple times for no particular reason.

[psyblade73]

During these arrests they were all tortured, the women were raped, 3 of her family members were killed during torture, etc... She was raped in front of her father. She and 2 other members of her family managed to escape from Iraq and come here through Jordan.

[FattKidd]

Wow. She must REALLY love the US then. You know, for the CIA staged 1963 coup of Qasim which led to Saddam Hussein coming to power there. All because Qasim dropped out of the anti USSR 'Baghdad Pact' and nationalized the oil industry. US oil corps don't like it when you fuck with their oil man! Hussein, a CIA asset, tried to assassinate Qasim in 1959 but failed and was forced to flee to Egypt. I'll bet she's also really fond of US/Britain/France selling Hussein all those WMD too!

[psyblade73]

Any crop circles by your house FattKidd?

[FattKidd]

You wish.

[FireOFK]

well said brother, accept one thing the iraqi government was not a radical Islamic government like saudi arabia oppressing women this is just media, but the dictator killed and barried hundreds of thousands of Kurds including kids and innocent women and men just because of the fear of them asking their rights as they were not Arabs. so they did the right thing to kick Sadam and his baath brutal regime out & this is not an easy task but believe me its worth it.

[psyblade73]

The war is for is oil argument is pathetic. If we wanted oil from Iraq we could have made a deal with Saddam to get rid of sanctions and had all the oil we wanted with out firing a shot.

[FattKidd]

The war was 1/2 for oil, 1/2 for empire. But, you're ideas regarding oil are naive. It's not about pumping MORE oil, it's about flow/price control. Hussein had been breaking the oil cartel (OPEC) quotas for years under the oil/food program which drove Saudis and Houston oil nuts. Whenever he felt, he would open the tap full bore and the price/brrl would plunge. There were times in late '90s where it was around $10/brrl. That's why oil was a factor.

[psyblade73]

Boy you sure have a vivid imagination. Just out of curiosity, what do you do for a living? How do you get invite to all the secret Skull and Bones meetings?

[psyblade73]

that last one was for you FattKidd.

[FattKidd]

That info was taken from a James A Baker Council on Foreign Relations paper written in 2002, I believe, in regards to Hussein and why, in their opinion, he needed to be taken out. It may seem like something incredible to folks like you who get their news from Faux and Rush Limpaw but, I could hardly make this shit up. If I could, I'd be rich. Greg Palast BBC broke the story. Maybe you should check it out.

[psyblade73]

Actually I get my news from actual people, instead of trusting BBC, Rush L., or anyone else. As for you Fattkidd, maybe you should should stick to easier subjects if you can't make up such a ridiculously clique conspiracy there?

[Turtleproof]

James Baker and the BBC really are clique whackjob conspiracy theories. Pardon, I'm delerious from a bad headcold, that's not true at all.

[FattKidd]

Wow! So you're a journalist!? Well, I hate to say it but, you suck at your job. Amy Jaffe at the James Baker Institute leaked the "Options for a Sustainable Iraqi Oil Industry", a 323 page doc written by heads of big oil, including Ken Lay and Iraqi born oil industry consultant Falah Aljibury who spoke with Palast about the meetings. The head of Shell Oil also spoke openly about the oil industries plans for Iraq. It's all out there for those that want to know the truth.

[FattKidd]

Also, I think the word you're looking for is 'cliche'. A clique is a small group of friends/partners/etc. Maybe you should stick to easier words since you can't seem to form coherent sentences.

[psyblade73]

Fattkidd, I think you should keep your job as the spell check for youtube and leave politics for the adults. Baker is bed with very questionable people, that is not a good source of information. nichtidentisches, it is nice to know there are others out there that have a clue.

[FattKidd]

James Baker is the Bush Family Consiglieri so, if he's in bed with questionable people, so is Bush family. Baker is lead council for the Saudis and Exxon-Mobil. And, I didn't say I got my info from him, I got it from BBC Newsnight/Greg Palast. He reported on the Baker institute paper for the BBC. Remember Cheney's little 'Energy Advisory Commission' or whatever it was called, back in 2000/2001 that they didn't want anyone to know who was a member of?

[psyblade73]

BBC?!?! why didn't you say so? It must be reliable then. ROFL

[FattKidd]

Yes, BBC. And yes, about as reliable as you can get. Thank you.

[psyblade73]

Dude you are hopeless. Keep on getting snowed. BBC has not been a reputable news organization for about 20-30 years. Keep being a lemming you mental midget. You are dead to me.

[FattKidd]

LOL! Your funny. But, you still haven't proven me wrong, have you?

[psyblade73]

Can't prove anything wrong, when premises are faulty. That is basic logic. That is why when lawyers first start to argue a trial, they decided on what stipulations they are willing to conceed.

[FattKidd]

I thought I was dead to you. sniff, sniff.

[Turtleproof]

There's a difference between recognizing simple facts and sharing an unfounded view of the world. Practicing willful ignorance does not give you lisence to admonish others to act like adults, quite the opposite actually.

[psyblade73]

Turtle you act like an adult. That comment was a pun on Fattkidd's name. Boy you sure missinterpreted that information.

[psyblade73]

Boy. There is a lot of information out there. I don't trust any of it. The whole Bush is Evil stuff is ridiculous. Clinton is the investment consultant for the Dubai Prince and is making millions on that deal. Dubai refines most of the oil for Iran, and could end this stand-off about the nuclear program with a phone call. Politicians from both sides appear to have sold us out big time.

[FattKidd]

Bush family ties to Bin Laden family and Saudi Royals, UAE, etc etc goes back decades. Clinton is an amateur compared to them. Remember Bush Sr. is also the architect of many weapons sales to Iran. Bush family gets paid all around, oil, weapons (Carlyle Group) financing and reconstruction. Nothing like saying your against big gov't then using it as your personal wealth generator.

[XtremeBlu62]

FatKidd you can not break up Iraq.

If the Kurds get there own country what do you think the Kurds in Turkey and Iran will do?

How are you going to divide up the natural resources?

End result of all of this is the US made Iran stronger. Well and they wasted much of their hard and soft power, billions of dollars, thousands of lives, and destabilized the region.

But hey Americans elected a Pres with 0 experince with international relations!

[FattKidd]

Kurds in north have pretty much had their own country since Gulf I & no-fly zone enfrcmnt. We can control Turkey & if Iran wants to deal harshly with it's Kurdish pop, we can deal with that as seperate issue. Fact is, Iraq will NEVER be unified, stable democracy. We simply cannot keep borrowing money from China for dead-end endeavor. As far as oil goes, Kurds have thier own, Shia have their own. Saudi would have to support Sunni for a while. I think they owe us that much.

[XtremeBlu62]

They never had enough troops.

Stupid Rumsfeld :P

they should have had one Soldier for every 50 Iraqis.

Instead they had 1 for every 100 at the start!

Bad US planning caused this.

[nichtidentisches]

Yeah, bad planning indeed. Remember, that US is NOT almighty, has limited financial ressources too and a smaller bsp than europe? Maybe, if France and Germany would finally had the intelligence to part this war on terror, rather than supporting it with Weapons (via Iran) and "intellecutal" warfare there would be less terror?

[XtremeBlu62]

The US should had 600,000 people when they occupied the country. Instead they dropped to like 150,000 people. They controlled the capital but not the rest of the country so they spread out and now no longer controlt he capital.

Plus they disbanded the Iraqi Army and the Bathist Party.

[nichtidentisches]

Maybe, if it wouldn't have sold weapons of mass destruction that had been used on kurds in Al-Anfal Operation and converntional weapons to Saddam, there would have been not such massacres under Saddam and maybe he would have been garrotted earlier?

[nilent]

Pamela Hess is glorious in her humanity.

Bush managed to start a war for no good reason and to actually make Iraq WORSE than it was under Saddam!

Now, the "pottery" is busted.  To really fix it would take an occupation/reconstruction force of 5 million and maybe 10 trillion bucks and a decade...Bush managed to fuck up the whole country.

Bush needs to be impeached before the USA becomes the next Iraq and Bush declares himself emperor.

[Turtleproof]

US soldiers are fine people, my brother is one of them. Americans DO understand what our soldiers are going through: THAT is one solid reason to GET THEM THE HELL OUT OF THERE. The invasion was immoral and has killed tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis, all for WMD that WE KNEW WEREN'T THERE. Support the troops: BRING THEM HOME.

[Srekwah]

Yeah, my brother is Santa Clause and he reckons your just a selfish dick.

[Turtleproof]

That makes sense. By not wanting good people to die in a pointless, immoral war that has killed thousands of good people from many countries including Iraq, I'm really just being selfish.

[chrsmac]

First off, thank you for supporting the troops. That said, it sounds as if your whole "I dislike the war because the media tells me to" is mostly based on your thoughts that the war was only for oil and WMDs and since we didn't find any WMDs, then we shouldn't be there. Go back and listen to the lady in the video, she actually gets it. If we bring the troops home, where will that leave the Iraqi civilians? (the ones who are just now learning that they can stand up for themselves)

[FattKidd]

Yes but, we need a political solution as well. So, we send 1 million troops and pacify the country. As soon as we leave, they'll start the fighting again unless we physically seperate these people. Iraq as a country should be dissolved and either independant states set up or federation of states. Also, we must threaten to pull out unless Saudi Arabia and other gulf states step in and help. They SHOULD care about their people as much as our soldiers do.

[nichtidentisches]

Yes, One Million troops. I think, that just one quarter will fit. And that WILL be the political solution as well, because the Iraquis have the Oil, they have to learn to organize after years of disempowerment by totalitarian Fascism.

[FattKidd]

Not amount of troops will work because Iraqis can just wait us out. That is their home. They have no other place to go. So, we saturate the country with GIs & they just lay low until we're gone. It's like whack-a-mole. You can't win a war of occupation against a determined enemy. Lesson 1. from Vietnam. The tribes in Iraq have been fighting since Mohammad died and the US ain't gonna stop it in 4, 6, or even 10 yrs. Time to come home and let the Saudis and IRanians figure it out.

[Turtleproof]

" That said, it sounds as if your whole "I dislike the war because the media tells me to" "

The media has been telling us that this is the epic struggle of the millenium despite the entire planet being apathetic about it, and that opposing an immoral war makes our soldiers cry. She doesn't "get it," she's just sharing traumatic experiences. If we leave, the people and government will have gotten what they have been asking for for years: freedom from US.

[nichtidentisches]

Yes sure. The very Solidarity of one, who didnt get a single clue on whats really going on there. I feel sorry of those fine boys and girls out there, that get violated. The best thing I can do here is to support them, so they wont think its all of just going out and let them killeach other before they start killing us again.

[ibelin1]

This is not our fight! Terrible as it may be, why should Americans die for oil. That is what this fight is all about, not the people but the oil!

And the longer we are there the more the rich thugs will get richer and the soldiers die for there greedy gain! What is happening there will happen no matter what we do! Consider the homeless and poverty we have here first! America can not and should not try to fix things there with out first fixing things here!

[galumpher]

This woman is talking about certain Iraqis who asked a family shot a boy in hisYou are a model of propriety - for me to poop on!!!

[cssniper06]

How do you know its a war for Oil? Wheres the proof for your conspiracy theory? Have you ever realized that the majority of bums in America are choosing to be like that, just like an alcoholic chooses to remain in such state, the same goes for homeless people, they choose that lifestyle, seriously whats keeping them from bathing? Whats keeping them from going to a cafeteria that offers meals for the homeless? Whats keeping them from going to a rehabilitation center?

[seattlelace]

You are very ignorant cssniper06!

[cssniper06]

Anybody can call a person ignorant, but its a just a name if there is no proof. The same thing with Global Warming, its a myth, a lie with twisted proof.

[Turtleproof]

Twisted proof: Colin Powell presented pictures of toy planes, CGI cartoons, and satillite photos of benign facilities claiming that these were "UNDENIABLE PROOF" that Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction. Mr. Bush ordered the invasion after weapons of mass destruction were NOT FOUND.  Twisted proof: that weapons were NOT found is proof that they WERE THERE.

[cssniper06]

Anybody can make your claim, just like showing pictures of the missile launching pads in Cuba, its still a vague argument your trying to make, remember there are other countries that supported Iraq, Syria. Both had the Baath Party in Syria so one can assume weapons were smuggle into Syria, one has to think put of the box. Plus remember we weren't only looking for nuclear weapons, we were also looking for chemical weapons, radioactive, etc.

[Turtleproof]

No missile launching pads were shown during Powell's presentation, only installations that were known to be benign and later confirmed to be benign by inspection. My argument is not vague at all, it is explicit and factual. One cannot assume the weapons were smuggled out of a country that was under heavy surveillance: if they were where is the evidence? We control 100% of Iraq's documents and military facilities, there were no weapons to begin with and we knew that before the invasion.

[Turtleproof]

Conspiracy theory: Saddam Hussein possessed thousands of tons of weapons that cannot be detected by any human means. Thousands of TONS of invisible weapons. Conspiracy theory: dozens of nations risk NUCLEAR ANNIHILATION to make a short term profit.

[cssniper06]

Here we go again throwing conspiracy theories, just like saying "oh there was no Holocaust it was all a myth", try to bring in some facts rather than wasting time throwing conspiracy theories from loners that don't have a life.

[Turtleproof]

That's the conspiracy theory presented by the government, not me. They claimed that Saddam had invisible missiles and that Europe was willing to be destroyed just to make money. That Saddam Hussein had WMD that can't be detected by human means is a conspiracy theory, the neoconservatives could be called "loners that don't have a life," I suppose.

[chrsmac]

So, answer me this...Saddam has had WMDs, HE HAS USED THEM ON HIS OWN PEOPLE, yet what makes you think that they still did not have them? Let me guess, because Al Gore and Michael Moore told you they didn't.

[Turtleproof]

Because there was no evidence that he had them. The CIA, Mossad, MI6, Bundesnachrichtendienst, etc., (all intelligence agencies of the developed world) agreed that he did not have them.

However, the threat of WMD is so serious that even an idiot's suspicion should be investigated, and so it was! When weapons were NOT FOUND, Mr. Bush claimed this was proof that there were weapons and ordered the inspectors to leave and the invasion to begin. Have you already forgotten?

[nichtidentisches]

So, what would you say, was the real reason for the war? That Saddam was NOT a serious threat and ugly brute? Wasn't his Genocide enough to start a war? Obviously not with the UN.

But people like you think of a zio-americanist world conspiracy to grab all the arab oil, don't they?

[Turtleproof]

Genocide might have been an okay reason had 1) it been in progress on a massive scale, 2) it been a reason given by Mr. Bush's government for the invasion.

You are correct that Saddam was not a threat. That he was "an ugly brute" is irrelevant because he and hundreds of other dictators are treated as allies by the United States.

[Turtleproof]

The UN will never invade a nation, that is not its purpose, so do not fault it for not doing something illegally. The UN is an arbitrator that enters nations only with consent from both disputing parties.

"But people like you think of a zio-americanist world conspiracy to grab all the arab oil, don't they?"

You'd have to ask them, I just deal with the facts, especially the obvious facts of the invasion.

[FattKidd]

He used them on his own people when Reagan was pres and yet he and Bush Sr. sold him more. Why the outrage now? Also, Chem Bio weapons have a shelf life. Unless he was actively producing Chem/Bio weapons in a factory somewhere, the ones he had in the '80s/'90s would most likely be ineffective. UN verified no nuke program since '80s. You can't move Nuke/Chem factories overnight without someone noticing.

[nichtidentisches]

Yes, nowadays you can run them open and absolutely undisturbed, if you just seriously proclaim to destroy Israel. Remember Saddam attacked Israel once, and he had done this all the while, supporting suicide bombers in Palestine?

[Turtleproof]

You are referring to Iran, so you should provide some shred of evidence that they are pursuing evidence. With powerful organizations like Mossad and MI6 searching for it, there should be proof.

The Iranian President said that the "Israeli occupation should be wiped from the pages of time." Don't believe every outrageously erroneous translation that the propoganda networks put out.

[FattKidd]

When did Saddam attack Israel other than during the Gulf War? I believe it was Israel who attack Iraq, targeting their nuclear facilities. Guess what, a lot of people gave money to the families of suicide bombers none more so than Saudi Arabia. The US also gives Palestine millions per year. What's your point?

[nichtidentisches]

Manman, When will you see the most OBVIOUS thing, that Saddam did not have to hide his WMDs, but that he was one himself?

[Turtleproof]

A man with a failed country, a small and demoralized army, approaching the end of his life and with limited options was a weapon of mass destruction? Not only do I personally think that is unfathomable, but the people who really matter- Iraq's neighbors- also didn't see it that way.

[FattKidd]

BS. He was a CIA asset and 'our SOB' up till the time Bush Sr. decided to double-cross him. He consulted with Bush prior to invading Kuwait & Amb. April GLaspie relayed message 'US has no opinion on your Arab-Arab conflict' and 'Kuwait issue is not associated with America'. Kuwait was slant drilling into Iraqi oil fields & Hussein wanted it stopped. Bush Sr. turned around & trumped up bogus intel saying IRaq was massing troops on Saudi border (BS) to justify military action.

[FattKidd]

Also, if Hussein was such a threat, why didn't he use the chem/bio weapons during Gulf I? For all he knew, we were coming to take him out. But, he chose not to. ALso, he could have put Chem/Bio weapons on warheads of SCUDS he was firing into Israel but he didn't. If he's such a madman, why didn't he use WMD when he had the chance? It's all a narrative sold to folk like you to gin support for war. Same with Iran. You're told to believe that all Arabs are suicidal but, it's total BS.

[nichtidentisches]

Take it like this: If he had them, and he would have claimed to have them, and he would have made absolutely clear to ALL, that he would use them to destroy Israel, and the very free world: so, what would you think, who would be the only one getting seriously concerned? The ugly Conservatives in the US and some nagging Israelis, dontcha? Surely not anyone of peace-force EU UN or China.

[Turtleproof]

Everyone who felt that there was a legitimate threat of destruction, whether by nuclear or conventional weapons. The situation you present is hypothetical, but it's not even useful because it is unrealistic in that only a small fraction of people are concerned for their survival.

[FattKidd]

Ir regards to your proof of the oil connection, you should read some Greg Palast reporting for the BBC. He got inside The Baker Group and was able to obtain internal docs proving such. It was also about Neo-Con empire. That said, I do believe the soldiers want to help the Iraqi people and I think we all do. But, how to go about that?

[FattKidd]

Also, Iraq was established as a country in the 1930's by British and was set up with the three tribes there knowing they would fight each other and hopefully not the rebel against British. Therefore, the only real solution should be to split them up again either as independant states or as a federation of states. A political solution is needed before peace can be achieved.

[chrsmac]

Now about this not being our fight...answer me this, would we still be a free country (out from under British rule) had the French not come to our aid during the American Revolution?...and by the way, that wasn't their fight either

[Turtleproof]

The French didn't burn our cities and destroy our army in the name of liberating us. They gave us aid after lengthy discussions with diplomat Franklin.