like holy water off a ducks back.... oh lee you genius. i dont despise religion though. i just despise the higher ups who have managed to twist the spiritulity to their own ends. christians are probably just up for the banter like the rest of us. a few bad apples etc etc. religion isnt to blame, its people
In respect of the countless millions who have been killed in the name of one God or another, your apology is a good start. If all the other religions could now follow suit; and for you all to promise to stop murdering people in the name of your God, this world would be a much better place to live in.
What is the point to believe in god? as if life after death is more enjoyable than the taste of your girlfriends's pussy! you won't get pussy in heaven, so there is really little incentive to care much. Sorry i have read Camus' Stranger.....
Stewart Lee is NOT a god. He is an affable, chubby chap who has read a lot of books and developed impressive comic timing. When comedians who describe themselves as liberals attack religion on ostensibly moral grounds it always makes me cringe. Like they are taking some noble stance against the brutal tyranny of friendly vicars and church bring-and-buy sales. As though the Cof E is a threat to our hard-won, much cherished freedom to say the word "fuck" a lot on BBC2 panel shows. Grow up.
@MrJackonion Where did he attack religion? He documented the criticism from certain right-wing Christian groups. He's defending his (and our) right to satirise anything, including religion. Don't try and muddy the waters by mentioning aspects that have nothing to do with what the programme covered.
@ajgraham1983 I've seen him attack religion on many occasions (Fist of Fun, his live act etc) and right at the start of this film he more or less admits that he thinks religion is "inherently ridiculous" and should be "dismantled". I'm not questioning his right to satirise religion I just think he shouldn't do it. And if he is going to do it then he shouldn't pretend that he is boldly exercising his "freedom of expression" . He's not, he's just taking the piss out of an easy target.
@MrJackonion Religion does not end with the C of E, there are still many powerful religious institutions in Britain and the rest of the world. Therefore it should be satirised like any other organisation with influence.And many vicars and the clergy of other religions often have less than `friendly` views on the rights of homosexuals,which is a major cause for concern in society. Religion is not an easy target even in more liberal countries like the UK.
@EbsNhexz It is easy to vulgarise and simplify the beliefs of the religious in order to make people laugh. It works because religions try to foster a spirit of solemn contemplativeness which is the precise opposite of what comedy tries to do. The tension between the two attitudes of mind is a ready made source of gags for comics who can't be bothered thinking more imaginatively. The result is that people come to associate laughter with faith, which undermines it. This is a bad thing in my view.
When particular members of a particular religion do something that is particularly worthy of satire, then I can see the worth of them being publicly condemned and satire plays it's part in that. But too often comics attack faith per se, and they often take some disingenuous moral stance like "well they are horrible to gays so they deserve it" or "they fiddle with children" to justify their jokes. But they are really trying to gain attention (and financial gain) by shocking their audience.
Most Christians believe in the sanctity of sexual union as the way to create new life and emphasise the role of the family in bringing up children. Out of this grows an attitude of kindly disapproval toward those who embrace homosexuality. It's a far more nuanced stance than is often suggested and is rarely a result of plain malevolence (controversy courting channel 4 documentaries aside). Comedy is not a suitable arena to discuss these things, they are too important to be laughed at.
@MrJackonion malevolence or not it is still a flawed opinion and has been detrimental to the human rights of homosexuals, it goes way beyond recognising a slight distinction into the realms of bigotry. I do not condemn faith, I have my own version of it. But religion should not be exempt from satire nor should politics or any area of human existence.I could just as easily state that these things are too important not to be laughed at.
@EbsNhexz There is a potentially huge debate to be had here, and I haven't got the time to type my thoughts and do them full justice. I don't think that the act of gay intercourse is deserving of the same level of public approval as heterosexual sex within marriage is. One produces life, the other doesn't. The church merely reflects this idea, it's not bigoted. Your Wildean inversion of my point is clever but doesn't hold water; laughter trivialises, and some things shouldn't be trivialised.
@MrJackonion I am fighting back my desire to dispute what you just expressed, but you are right in saying that this is a different debate.(Nice use of Wildean, I would perceive it as a compliment if I wasn't clear of your intention) Our views on the applications of comedy differ. I think that is the only conclusion we can settle on.
I despise religion and what it stands for. The people however, I don't really care if they believe in a God or not as long as they don't start preaching to me how I lead a shitty life because I don't believe in God. Extremists are a prime example of this - they're all cunts.
stewart lee attacked religion with double standards abit. My problem is extremism. I'm a christian and i still want to watch the jerry springer musical, looks funny and could possibly make a point or two.
Let's face it, no proof of god but no proof against it. You can say christianity is stupid but my stupidity has helped people while your stupidity just offends.
P.s. ANYONE says this is an offence to god, how DARE you speak for a being that hasn't told you. If he has? Proof! shut up! grow up!
Can we insult the Jews please? I mean, insulting Christians is shooting fish in a barrel really. It takes no guts at all to do that. Never mind Lee and his stupid bloody production. Ignore the fucking Christians if you don't like 'em.
@RogerHoare How can he ignore them when they are protesting against his stage show and are causing trouble for him when most of them don't even understand the concept of the play and havn't seen it/
I love the way people are scared of matters, opinions and progression that they don't understand. All that they need are pitch forks and flame torches.
Oh this is one of the funniest musicals ever made and urrrm sorry, If you don't like it...DON'T WATCH IT! It's funny, get a sense of humor and grow up! Stupid touchy protestors. If someone made a musical comedy that joked around with something that I found important, I'd take it for what it is...A JOKE...and not throw my dummy out of the pram and grow up!!!!!!!! ....rant over :)
if you watch this right after watching stuart lee on political correctness it kind of makes him look like a hypocrit as he jumps on the "political correctness gone mad" boat just because it's affected his opera :/
@kangaroobin Except it's not about political correctness, but about the bizarre notion that religious beliefs should be shielded from criticism by sheer virtue of their being religious, in a way which would never apply when discussing any other kind of belief. It would be illiberal to give a particular viewpoint special protection from criticism and diminish the freedom of speech of others to comment on it.
Yuou're totaly losing the argument and you dont know whaqt to say next , admit to me that you're an idiot and i will let it go , but you wont will you , you GOOD IRISH CATHOLIC BOY.
@adlerbr12 You cant hold an argument without (trying) to be funny or condescending, it's quite sad from a grown up.
Let me put this simply for you and try to listen this time, two world wars, red china and the Soviet Union, tell me a religious conflict in the last century that even comes close, except you can't can you.
Your statement that Hitler was a roman catholic has as much relevance as people who claim that Stalin and Pol Pot killed BECAUSE they were atheists (i.e. none)
@adlerbr12 And by religious conflict I don't mean something loosely based on religion i.e. (hmm now let me think) something like Northern Ireland, which you've still yet to answer
@adlerbr12 Come on good sir I'm still waiting for your rebuttal or can you not hold an argument without soundbyte or establishing that somebody has a religious stance (i'm guessing not)
You're fact's are wrong, and i see you're just like the rest , if you say its so then its so , blind faith hahaha , there is a god even if you cant see , hear or smell him you're sure he's there, WHY just because .
And that's not me jumping to conclusions, that's me concluding from our conversations that you are a religious zealots regardless of proof or facts.
Jumping to conclusions ?, I'm not jumping to any conclusions I'm only telling it like it is , and you are attempting to defend you're point but you cant , when you say things like" They're correct in saying that the biggest genocides by far in the 20th century weren't committed by religious ideologies or religious people", you show that you're not researching your subject properly, i suggest you read
(In God's Name: Genocide and Religion in the Twentieth Century )by
@adlerbr12 I'm sure it's an excellent read but i'll stand by my statement as it's a simple fact.
May I suggest you do a bit of research yourself or do you still think Northern Ireland is a religious conflict?
"i'm too indoctrinated to my made up deity" that sounds like jumping to conclusions to me, I just deal with facts and don't like zealots regardless of their beliefs or lack of
Hahaha, that is the problem ,"well if we didn't have religion there wouldn't be as many wars or bloodshed", is exactly right , you cant see it because you are to indoctrinated to you're made up deity.
@adlerbr12 You seem to have totally missed the point, neither did I profess to believe in a deity, as my dear old mother used to say the only exercise you seem to get is jumping to conclusions
But you're still missing the point, even if these men would have been atheists doesn't mean they killed people for the sake of atheism,no they killed people because they where totalitarian and cruel mad men .
But religious people kill for the sake of god , Muslims jihadists kill for alla(god) Christian Crusades 1095-1272the Crusades resulted in "holy" wars between "Christians," Jews, and Moslems.
wars have been fought between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland , and people are still killiong abortionists in the name of God.
Therefore,you must agree with atheists and others who say that many atrocious things have been done in the name of God, and even in the name of Christianity.
Pol Pot was not an atheist as some Christians would like to believe, he was more of a budist , he him self did not really understand what atheism was, Buddhists dont believe in God also,mixing communism (social relations between humans) with atheism (humans relations with god) - is an absolutely different ideologies.
And what about Stalin you say,well Stalin's daughter Svetlana Alliluyeva Stalin said (documentary "Mysteries of the Century: Kremlin Kids" ("Тайны века" - "Дети Кремля") 2003-03-19, 1 Channel 1 Russia), how Stalin told her that Christ existed.
Journalist: It is interesting, that from all Kremlin' residents, maybe, just Stalin believed in God...
your going to pull out the old Hitler argument, if you bothered to research you would have found that Hitler was a roman catholic , is troops had belt buckles that said said (GOTT MIT UNS which means GOD WITH US) and to this day he as not been excommunicated .
that's exactly my point , religious people love to say Hitler killed millions , then they always add you know he was an atheists, attempting to connect the killings to atheism , you're right Hitler didn't kill in the name of Catholicism but he also didn't kill in the name of atheism.
And he still to this day as not been excommunicated from the catholic church .
@adlerbr12 It works both ways, it's unfair to say "they always add you know he was an atheist"
Sometimes (not always) theists are responding to the charge of "well if we didn't have religion there wouldn't be as many wars or bloodshed"
They're correct in saying that the biggest genocides by far in the 20th century weren't committed by religious idealogies or religious people, they're not necessarily connecting it to atheism
@jwood36 This is a bit late, but what you said made me react. Have you read "Mein Kampf"? You can certainly interpret what Hitler wrote in a way that makes him seem like a Catholic fanatic (because he does after all mention God). In contrast, you can't interpret what Stalin said in a way that makes him seem like an "Atheist fanatic", because Atheism is always at its most extreme, anything else is agnosticism. I'm reacting only to this one post of yours, perhaps you admit that you made a mistake.
@petterutiful Stalin was an atheist but didn't kill in the name of atheism, Hitler was catholic but didn't kill in the name of catholicism. It's quite simple really, but it doesn't stop theists and atheists trying to argue against these points.
@jwood36 Yes, people can argue about all kinds of stupid stuff, when they don't really have to argue at all.
What I'm saying is that there can never be someone who commits genocide in the name of atheism. There is no way to draw a line between "there is no god" and genocide, because atheism doesn't come equipped with moral values. Catholicism does come with moral values, and some with murderous intent, so genocide can be justified by that religion.
@jwood36 Isn't it great that random people in YouTube comments know more about history than that person calling himself the Pope. Yeah, but *he*'s the great scholar, *he*'s the sophisticated intellectual.
He certainly picks easy targets, Christians and Joe Pasquale. He wouldn't have the courage to attack Muslims, and I would love to have to have seen him have a go at Bernard Manning, ( when he was alive). Manning would have taken him to the cleaners.
@peeayouel he does do a routine about dog training school for muslims in which the dogs were trained to fly planes into buildings so i'm afraid you're wrong. i dont agree that he only picks easy targets, his stuff is mainly very challenging to convention. he picks apart not only christians and pasquale, but also the very nature of comedy itself and comedians.
@peeayouel Bernard Manning! I don't think so somehow, Stewart Lee would have taken him in as potatoes and spat him out as chips, even Mrs Merton and Victor Meldrew put him in his place
"But whether you think the people behind me are hysterical bigots or well-intentioned fools they are,nonetheless, divs!". Hahahahahahahha! Can hardly stop laughing....tears of mirth.
Much of what people do is done in the name of God. Irishmen blow each other up in his name. Arabs blow themselves up in his name. Imams and ayatollahs oppress women in his name. Celibate popes and priests mess up people's sex lives in his name. Jewish shohets cut live animals' throats in his name.
@adlerbr12 It would be more accurate to say the war is between republicans and loyalists or British and Irish, take away the religious labels and they would still fight, it all stems back to the colonisation and plantations of Ireland
@adlerbr12 yeh but people will find any excuse for killing. god doesnt have anything to do with it - in fact the most murderous regimes have been atheistic societies. highest body count by faaaaaaaaar
I'm sorry. I was in "watching serious documentary" mode. But as soon as he said divs that way in his "presenting a serious documentary" monotoned voice..I lolled. Oh he's hilarious. And cheesed off with the "divs". Now that?...was funny.
@cruelladevill as a christian i agree... the church as an organised faith is a cretinous c*nt case, exploiting their positions as power... i believe in god, the holy communion is part of that, but, priests are only human, they represent got alot of the time to help with faith, but they don't represent god full stop. every single person in christianity should see these lines and not be pricks trying to force their views on people... i could liken them to nazis... but i'm above that... kinda :P
Hang on Lee, you said they are from Liverpool? Are they all from there? You had protests wherever it toured. Just because it is IN Liverpool doesn't mean they are ALL from Liverpool. I would have liked to have seen it no matter where a protestor was from. You are IN Liverpool but you are not from there, there is a difference.
Nah its better to start witht the christians, then move on to the jews, then the muslims, a short break with the rasta's then on with punishing the catholics lol
christian's are the most humourless gits going. most muslims i know, and i know a fair few, have a great sense of humour and wouldnt take the least bit of offense at what is in the end a story.
Agree entirely. But the radical element of Islam is much more frightening than the radical element of Christianity.
That said, Muslims are always up for a lively argument (in a civil way, of course) whereas the Christians just clap their hands to their ears and go "lalalalalala."
I think what I have learned from my time around muslim people is that they, for the most part, are in terested in furthering their knowledge of other religions, I think they feel it gives them a greater scope of understanding of their own religion. Christians on the other hand seem to, as you said, play the old see no evil hear no evil game, where all other religions may have good ideas but are fundamentaly wrong.
Problem is, they've got an army of right-wing tabloids on their side, so the Stewart Lees and whatnot are fairly fucked if they speak out against them.
The intelligent people in the world will always see past the spin tabloid newspapers put on stories, unfortunately it seems those people are few and far between these days.
People seem to enjoy being spoonfed disinformation (not to be mistaken with misinformation), feeling like they have no need to find information for themselves and form their own opinions. I would very much like it if there was someone or thing to blame for that but I'm not sure there is!
Stuart Lee is a wonderful thing of beauty and greatness, intelligent and articulate, but much more importantly he is fucking hilarious. Im not religous so i cant comment on the topic. But if SL says they are divs then ill go along with that ;)
I am not saying I am Jesus or even like Jesus...that's not for me to say. It's up to you to make up your own minds as to whether I am a messiah or any other kind of god or demi-god or saint.
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someone really needs to knock stewart lee off his high horse. hes an at best slightly above average lowbrow comedian who wrote a goofy "satirical" (in the same way that, say, family guy is "satirical") opera which wasnt particularly intelligent or original. he is not fucking voltaire.
someone also needs to make more obvious the direct parallel between the smug sense-of-superiority displayed by obnoxious vocal atheists and the smug sense-of-superiority displayed by the strongly religious
I think Stewart Lee has got every right to have a pop at the ridiculous religious people who attempted to censor his show. Whether the show is good or not doesn't matter, nor does how funny he is or how able he is to write philosophical works.
The parallel can be drawn as you suggest, but ultimately because god doesn't exist, the religious inevitabley end up looking sillier.
The difference I would say would be that that sense of thinking you are "correct" stands up to some level of scrutiny. In which case I think he can be "smug" on this topic. I don't take my broken leg to a car mechanic and my broken car to the doctors because I'm scared of offending some constructed notion they have of themselves
the correct way to protest a play or sum such as that is to not go to it plain and simple, vote with your wallet idiots. secondly any sane Christian (like me) knows they don't need to protest something in the name of God because God is omnipotent and doesn't need our help to defend him although if that group managed to get 65000 complaints in, it's possible that maybe they didn't like your show and BBC simply decided they would make a better profit putting on a different show, just a thought
Ahh ok, wouldn't it have been more appropriate to have made this comment on one his other videos? You know, one where he's at least trying to be funny in his own seriously pathetic way? That way, the point you're trying to make won't come across as so irrelevant.
God is big enough to look after himself,he is too busy at the moment giving kids cancer,so as he is done with that he will get round to us non belivers dont you worry
Hitler was an atheist, the Crusades were a long long long time ago. Would you rather stand outside a church and make derogatory comments about Jesus or stand outside a mosque and make derogatory comments about Mohammed? Honest answers only please.
For true comparison you would have to commit the same act outside of both a radical Muslim Mosque, and an equally radical Christian Church - and the response is likely going to be very similar.
The fact is Western society has (for a large part) shrugged off antiquated thinking, whilst Islamic custom upheld throughout the East continues to be radicalised does not make. Islamic custom in Britain is just as tempered, but there will always be fruit cakes.
In addition Hitler was certainly a religious man, and used Christianity as a crux of many of his "logical" reasons for his opposition to the Jews. He also disliked Catholicism and opposed pretty much any religious observation that didn't suit his own purpose. In that respect he's pretty much on par with any other fundamentalist.
He was far from being an atheist.
How he could reconcile following a Bible with 50% of the content devoted to Judaism was a bone of contention.
I would be hard pressed to find a particularly 'radical' Christian church in Britain. I have no problem with any religion, what irks me is liberals like Stuart Lee who think they are terribly clever offending Christians but would't have the balls to do the same to Muslims, would he have had a character symbolising Mohammed in Jerry Springer the Opera, and if he had would there have been a bunch of protesters singing outside the theatre. I think we all know the answer to both questions
I don't know that it's terribly clever, but they are (as an institution of power and influence) open to criticism in a way that Islam isn't. We lack the same cultural references, and understanding required to satire effectively.
Stephen Green and co do not represent "Christians" in the same way that the majority of radical Muslims do not represent Islam.
If Christian fundamentalists responded as Islamicists have been shown to respond, I am certain Lee and co would be equally reticent.
I'm afraid I don't buy this 'lacking the same cultural references' excuse. I read somewhere that Stewart Lee had stated a similar reason for his lack of criticsim/satire of Islam. I don't think it's intellectual cowardice, I think it is due to fear of actual physical harm. No media outlet would show anything that might enrage militant muslims as could be seen by the cartoon incident
I don't dispute that there is a fear of reprisal. My original comment was that radicals respond in the same way regardless of which religion (or even political beliefs) they follow.
Comparing Stewart Lee's "fear" of the Cup of Tea and a Biscuit Christianity we have in the UK to the Chop Your Head Off Islamist extremists is a tad unfair.
Hence my original point that you would an equally fanatical Christian sect to compare reactions with, to see if it's an issue of enlightenment and "progress".
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I'm afraid I cannot concur with your point that religious radicals respond in the same way, I have yet to hear of Christian radicals committing murder in the name of their religion. There maybe the same fervour in all religions but christians appear less likely to resort to violence than their Muslim counterparts
I wouldn't agree that the IRA or KKK were motivated by religion but rather have other agendas based on territorial politics and racism respectively. Have to concede ignorance on the Russian Ultras, army of God and Lambs of Christ. I believe I stated erly on the abortion clinic bombings are one area of Christian fanatacism, unhead of in Britain though. Wasn't the Olympic bombing carried out by a lone lunatic? If not then I stand corrected on that point.
The IRA are a politicised and national entity now, but are still different from say ETA who select their targets not by religious denomination.
KKK meanwhile is a white supremacy movement. At the core however is Protestantism. Rather than just being "racist" they also targetted Catholics, Jews, Muslims, and anyone who didn't subscribe to their point of view (or fit the profile they were looking for in their towns).
I don't think the IRA could be said to have slected their targets by religous denomination. I'm sure they killed a lot of catholics during their bombing campaign. The KKK I agree do have Protestantism at their heart
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Indeed it does, apologies if I wrongly interpreted your political bent. It's just that 'The Crusades' seems to be the main argument liberals trot out when trying to convince others that christians are as bloodthirsty as radical muslims. Still definitely patrronising though
People are people, regardless of what they believe in. What makes groups react differently is their LEADERS - you'll notice that very few individuals will do ANYTHING resembling a terrorist attack unless a human authority figure is telling them to - be it Osama bin Laden, the pope, the bishop of Canterbury, or an imam.
Blimey! Not quite the tack I expected you to take in our discussion! I will contemplate your response further and respond forthwith. Any diffrences in opinion aside I think we can both agree that the BNP winning a seat in the Euro elections NOT a positive development.
My argument for blood thirsty christians is more like: abortion doctor murdered, some guy shot up the Holocaust museum, the klan, Northern Ireland... radical is radical no matter what guise it wears.
Someone seems to have deleted the post which illicited your response and I can't remember what it was. Suffice to say I'm not "too fucking supid" to know the differerence between liberals and non-christians though. Perhaps you could remind me what i said to provoke such profanity?
I've done a bit of checking on the Hitler/Atheism question. There doesn't appear to be any definative answer one way or the other. If it is proven he was a 'believer' then I concede my error. Even assuming this to be the case it was twisted nationalism with an unhealthy dose of racism that inspired him, not any religious beliefs he might have
They key thing with Hitler was that he didn't subscribe to a singular "religion" because none of them individually agreed with his stance. He used what was at hand and suited his purpose.
His ideology that informed Nazi policy included elements from Roman and Greek culture, as well as the taboo , arcane and fundamentalist elements of Christianity.
As with pretty much anything else - it was perverted to the needs and desires of a guy that would crown himself God given chance.
I'd rather deal with the 'div's' than muslim radicals who might find themselves 'offended' by a cartoon. Typical leftie, very brave slagging off christians who at the worst will sing some daft song at you. Radical Christianity really is a terrible threat at the moment isn't it. Nice bit of self promotion though!!
Apart from the death count. I'm not a fan of any religious fundamentalism but please tell me how many people have died at the hands of Christian radicals (the occasional US anti-abortionist aside)?? The worst they will do is sing a daft song at you and pray for your soul.
Religious belief is a personal and private choice. I personally dont believe in god, but i dont try to force this on other people, and equally, people who do believe shouldn't force it on others, and should mind their own fucking business
It's just like the abortion issue, if you're a Christian and think abortion is murder then don't have an abortion. Don't go around forcing your biggoted opinion down the throats of people why couldn't care less what you think.
Personally, at first glance, anything with the name Jerry Springer attached to it, at least at first blush, would not be worth the price of admission. But I would defend the right of someone else to see it if they wished, and would exercise my right to ignore the programme if I wished.
I'm not familiar with the brouhaha over this show. Love the quote from the vicar "Christianity is true or it isn't, ... you don't need to protect God." Mythology, while accurate in describing religion, and generally shouldn't be thought of as insulting, nevertheless, the inference is there that religion is not true. The greater issue, of course, is freedom of speech.
Christofascists. It makes sense, if you can't get to children early enough to brainwash them with threats of torture then resort to censorship. It's exactly this sort of behaviour that makes me feel adversarial (to put it mildly) to the Bronze Age Arabic Judaeo-Christo-Islamic mythology. It's sheer poison.
@itsayellowfig I'm pretty sure most liberals condemned the persecution of the Danish cartoonist.
autumnspiders 5 months ago
"At the end of the day..." the bloke in yellow sounds like a football player
fritspas 7 months ago
Thamk God I'm an atheist.
Webbula 7 months ago
DIVS
NickOLarse999 7 months ago
like holy water off a ducks back.... oh lee you genius. i dont despise religion though. i just despise the higher ups who have managed to twist the spiritulity to their own ends. christians are probably just up for the banter like the rest of us. a few bad apples etc etc. religion isnt to blame, its people
TheAlmightyAss 8 months ago
like holy water off a ducks back.... oh lee you genius
TheAlmightyAss 8 months ago
On behalf of all Christians with an IQ of over 10: I am sorry.
alexxxnewzealand 9 months ago 2
@alexxxnewzealand
In respect of the countless millions who have been killed in the name of one God or another, your apology is a good start. If all the other religions could now follow suit; and for you all to promise to stop murdering people in the name of your God, this world would be a much better place to live in.
johnpetermalcolm 8 months ago
What is the point to believe in god? as if life after death is more enjoyable than the taste of your girlfriends's pussy! you won't get pussy in heaven, so there is really little incentive to care much. Sorry i have read Camus' Stranger.....
rude1987 9 months ago
Stewart Lee is NOT a god. He is an affable, chubby chap who has read a lot of books and developed impressive comic timing. When comedians who describe themselves as liberals attack religion on ostensibly moral grounds it always makes me cringe. Like they are taking some noble stance against the brutal tyranny of friendly vicars and church bring-and-buy sales. As though the Cof E is a threat to our hard-won, much cherished freedom to say the word "fuck" a lot on BBC2 panel shows. Grow up.
MrJackonion 10 months ago
@MrJackonion Where did he attack religion? He documented the criticism from certain right-wing Christian groups. He's defending his (and our) right to satirise anything, including religion. Don't try and muddy the waters by mentioning aspects that have nothing to do with what the programme covered.
ajgraham1983 8 months ago
@ajgraham1983 I've seen him attack religion on many occasions (Fist of Fun, his live act etc) and right at the start of this film he more or less admits that he thinks religion is "inherently ridiculous" and should be "dismantled". I'm not questioning his right to satirise religion I just think he shouldn't do it. And if he is going to do it then he shouldn't pretend that he is boldly exercising his "freedom of expression" . He's not, he's just taking the piss out of an easy target.
MrJackonion 8 months ago
@MrJackonion Religion does not end with the C of E, there are still many powerful religious institutions in Britain and the rest of the world. Therefore it should be satirised like any other organisation with influence.And many vicars and the clergy of other religions often have less than `friendly` views on the rights of homosexuals,which is a major cause for concern in society. Religion is not an easy target even in more liberal countries like the UK.
EbsNhexz 7 months ago
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@EbsNhexz It is easy to vulgarise and simplify the beliefs of the religious in order to make people laugh. It works because religions try to foster a spirit of solemn contemplativeness which is the precise opposite of what comedy tries to do. The tension between the two attitudes of mind is a ready made source of gags for comics who can't be bothered thinking more imaginatively. The result is that people come to associate laughter with faith, which undermines it. This is a bad thing in my view.
MrJackonion 7 months ago
When particular members of a particular religion do something that is particularly worthy of satire, then I can see the worth of them being publicly condemned and satire plays it's part in that. But too often comics attack faith per se, and they often take some disingenuous moral stance like "well they are horrible to gays so they deserve it" or "they fiddle with children" to justify their jokes. But they are really trying to gain attention (and financial gain) by shocking their audience.
MrJackonion 7 months ago
Most Christians believe in the sanctity of sexual union as the way to create new life and emphasise the role of the family in bringing up children. Out of this grows an attitude of kindly disapproval toward those who embrace homosexuality. It's a far more nuanced stance than is often suggested and is rarely a result of plain malevolence (controversy courting channel 4 documentaries aside). Comedy is not a suitable arena to discuss these things, they are too important to be laughed at.
MrJackonion 7 months ago
@MrJackonion malevolence or not it is still a flawed opinion and has been detrimental to the human rights of homosexuals, it goes way beyond recognising a slight distinction into the realms of bigotry. I do not condemn faith, I have my own version of it. But religion should not be exempt from satire nor should politics or any area of human existence.I could just as easily state that these things are too important not to be laughed at.
EbsNhexz 7 months ago
@EbsNhexz There is a potentially huge debate to be had here, and I haven't got the time to type my thoughts and do them full justice. I don't think that the act of gay intercourse is deserving of the same level of public approval as heterosexual sex within marriage is. One produces life, the other doesn't. The church merely reflects this idea, it's not bigoted. Your Wildean inversion of my point is clever but doesn't hold water; laughter trivialises, and some things shouldn't be trivialised.
MrJackonion 7 months ago
@MrJackonion I am fighting back my desire to dispute what you just expressed, but you are right in saying that this is a different debate.(Nice use of Wildean, I would perceive it as a compliment if I wasn't clear of your intention) Our views on the applications of comedy differ. I think that is the only conclusion we can settle on.
take care mate.
EbsNhexz 7 months ago
@EbsNhexz Wise words, I had a sinking feeling this would rattle on for pages. Good to exchange some ideas in a civilised way though. All the best!
MrJackonion 7 months ago
I despise religion and what it stands for. The people however, I don't really care if they believe in a God or not as long as they don't start preaching to me how I lead a shitty life because I don't believe in God. Extremists are a prime example of this - they're all cunts.
ItsNotASlim 1 year ago
@ItsNotASlim I believe in God, best described as panentheism. I wouldn't preach to you, but I am still a massive cunt for entirely different reasons
mynameisloader 1 year ago 2
stewart lee attacked religion with double standards abit. My problem is extremism. I'm a christian and i still want to watch the jerry springer musical, looks funny and could possibly make a point or two.
Let's face it, no proof of god but no proof against it. You can say christianity is stupid but my stupidity has helped people while your stupidity just offends.
P.s. ANYONE says this is an offence to god, how DARE you speak for a being that hasn't told you. If he has? Proof! shut up! grow up!
aquilascura 1 year ago
believing in the holy bible or the holy q'ran or any other religion is even more wacko than believing in aliens, leprichauns and unicorns....
UPANDCOMINGGSI 1 year ago
Stewart Lee is one of the biggest hypocrites i have ever seen.
LeeAHHull 1 year ago
@LeeAHHull How so?
MrRik2 11 months ago
utter divs.
jkcfx 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
i really wish i'd gone to see jerry springer the opera when it was on. didn't know lee had wrote it at the time
antichris78 1 year ago
i really wish i'd seen jerry springer the opera when it was on. didn't know lee had wrote it at the time
antichris78 1 year ago 2
Can we insult the Jews please? I mean, insulting Christians is shooting fish in a barrel really. It takes no guts at all to do that. Never mind Lee and his stupid bloody production. Ignore the fucking Christians if you don't like 'em.
RogerHoare 1 year ago
@RogerHoare How can he ignore them when they are protesting against his stage show and are causing trouble for him when most of them don't even understand the concept of the play and havn't seen it/
greyreview 1 year ago
"They are nonetheless...divs" :D
bambieyedbeauty 1 year ago 7
The priest in the beginning looks like the butler from 101 Dalmatians.
mindfreakloyal92 1 year ago
It's Tuesday, Question of Sport is on, the weather's quite nice
b0b1919 1 year ago
"...on the grounds that it isn't 1508." Hahaha, this dude is fucking great.
rulyruly7 1 year ago 4
I love the way people are scared of matters, opinions and progression that they don't understand. All that they need are pitch forks and flame torches.
briancairnie 1 year ago
Oh this is one of the funniest musicals ever made and urrrm sorry, If you don't like it...DON'T WATCH IT! It's funny, get a sense of humor and grow up! Stupid touchy protestors. If someone made a musical comedy that joked around with something that I found important, I'd take it for what it is...A JOKE...and not throw my dummy out of the pram and grow up!!!!!!!! ....rant over :)
cadi123 1 year ago
if you watch this right after watching stuart lee on political correctness it kind of makes him look like a hypocrit as he jumps on the "political correctness gone mad" boat just because it's affected his opera :/
i hope im wrong because i think the guys great...
kangaroobin 1 year ago
@kangaroobin Except it's not about political correctness, but about the bizarre notion that religious beliefs should be shielded from criticism by sheer virtue of their being religious, in a way which would never apply when discussing any other kind of belief. It would be illiberal to give a particular viewpoint special protection from criticism and diminish the freedom of speech of others to comment on it.
DarioBattisti 1 year ago 3
3:40 , sums it up really.
jacksawild 1 year ago
...presumably because it isn't 1508. classic.
StrontiumDawg 1 year ago
''probably cos its not 1508''
GlasgowCelticPat1888 1 year ago
hahaha,You sound like GOOD IRISH CATHOLIC BOY ,you must be proud of Ireland's Catholic institutions, rapist and all , as IT'S a simple fact.
YOU'RE SAD AND RIDICULOUS..
adlerbr12 1 year ago
@adlerbr12 Now you're just embarrassing yourself with your mindless xenophobic comments, or is it because you'd have to admit you were wrong.
And no i'm not a Catholic
jwood36 1 year ago
@jwood36
Yuou're totaly losing the argument and you dont know whaqt to say next , admit to me that you're an idiot and i will let it go , but you wont will you , you GOOD IRISH CATHOLIC BOY.
hahaha loserrrrrr.
adlerbr12 1 year ago
@adlerbr12 You cant hold an argument without (trying) to be funny or condescending, it's quite sad from a grown up.
Let me put this simply for you and try to listen this time, two world wars, red china and the Soviet Union, tell me a religious conflict in the last century that even comes close, except you can't can you.
Your statement that Hitler was a roman catholic has as much relevance as people who claim that Stalin and Pol Pot killed BECAUSE they were atheists (i.e. none)
jwood36 1 year ago
@adlerbr12 He killed because he was a megalomaniac, simple fact.
You still keep up with the chidish name calling even though you've been informed i'm not catholic.
As for hahaha loserrrrr, that's really sad, I mean how old are you
jwood36 1 year ago
@adlerbr12 And by religious conflict I don't mean something loosely based on religion i.e. (hmm now let me think) something like Northern Ireland, which you've still yet to answer
jwood36 1 year ago
@adlerbr12 Cat got your tongue?
jwood36 1 year ago
@adlerbr12 Come on good sir I'm still waiting for your rebuttal or can you not hold an argument without soundbyte or establishing that somebody has a religious stance (i'm guessing not)
jwood36 1 year ago
You're fact's are wrong, and i see you're just like the rest , if you say its so then its so , blind faith hahaha , there is a god even if you cant see , hear or smell him you're sure he's there, WHY just because .
And that's not me jumping to conclusions, that's me concluding from our conversations that you are a religious zealots regardless of proof or facts.
adlerbr12 1 year ago
@adlerbr12 "So i'm religious regardless of proof or facts" sounds like a zealot to me now who's blind!
You still haven't answered my question regarding Northern Ireland
jwood36 1 year ago
Jumping to conclusions ?, I'm not jumping to any conclusions I'm only telling it like it is , and you are attempting to defend you're point but you cant , when you say things like" They're correct in saying that the biggest genocides by far in the 20th century weren't committed by religious ideologies or religious people", you show that you're not researching your subject properly, i suggest you read
(In God's Name: Genocide and Religion in the Twentieth Century )by
Omer Bartov.
adlerbr12 1 year ago
@adlerbr12 I'm sure it's an excellent read but i'll stand by my statement as it's a simple fact.
May I suggest you do a bit of research yourself or do you still think Northern Ireland is a religious conflict?
"i'm too indoctrinated to my made up deity" that sounds like jumping to conclusions to me, I just deal with facts and don't like zealots regardless of their beliefs or lack of
jwood36 1 year ago
Hahaha, that is the problem ,"well if we didn't have religion there wouldn't be as many wars or bloodshed", is exactly right , you cant see it because you are to indoctrinated to you're made up deity.
adlerbr12 1 year ago
@adlerbr12 You seem to have totally missed the point, neither did I profess to believe in a deity, as my dear old mother used to say the only exercise you seem to get is jumping to conclusions
jwood36 1 year ago
But you're still missing the point, even if these men would have been atheists doesn't mean they killed people for the sake of atheism,no they killed people because they where totalitarian and cruel mad men .
adlerbr12 1 year ago
But religious people kill for the sake of god , Muslims jihadists kill for alla(god) Christian Crusades 1095-1272the Crusades resulted in "holy" wars between "Christians," Jews, and Moslems.
adlerbr12 1 year ago
Albigensian Crusade 1208-1249,Spanish Inquisition 16 C-18 C,Witch Hunts 15 C-17 C 100,000 Yes
wars have been fought between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland , and people are still killiong abortionists in the name of God.
Therefore,you must agree with atheists and others who say that many atrocious things have been done in the name of God, and even in the name of Christianity.
adlerbr12 1 year ago
Pol Pot was not an atheist as some Christians would like to believe, he was more of a budist , he him self did not really understand what atheism was, Buddhists dont believe in God also,mixing communism (social relations between humans) with atheism (humans relations with god) - is an absolutely different ideologies.
So you're argument about polpot is finished .
adlerbr12 1 year ago
And what about Stalin you say,well Stalin's daughter Svetlana Alliluyeva Stalin said (documentary "Mysteries of the Century: Kremlin Kids" ("Тайны века" - "Дети Кремля") 2003-03-19, 1 Channel 1 Russia), how Stalin told her that Christ existed.
Journalist: It is interesting, that from all Kremlin' residents, maybe, just Stalin believed in God...
adlerbr12 1 year ago
@adlerbr12 the common claims that Stalin was an anti-theist is wrong, a deeper research into Russian history will give you a different perspective.
adlerbr12 1 year ago
your going to pull out the old Hitler argument, if you bothered to research you would have found that Hitler was a roman catholic , is troops had belt buckles that said said (GOTT MIT UNS which means GOD WITH US) and to this day he as not been excommunicated .
adlerbr12 1 year ago
@adlerbr12 But Hitler didn't kill in the name of Catholicism, just like Stalin didn't kill in the name of atheism
jwood36 1 year ago
@jwood36
that's exactly my point , religious people love to say Hitler killed millions , then they always add you know he was an atheists, attempting to connect the killings to atheism , you're right Hitler didn't kill in the name of Catholicism but he also didn't kill in the name of atheism.
And he still to this day as not been excommunicated from the catholic church .
adlerbr12 1 year ago
@adlerbr12 It works both ways, it's unfair to say "they always add you know he was an atheist"
Sometimes (not always) theists are responding to the charge of "well if we didn't have religion there wouldn't be as many wars or bloodshed"
They're correct in saying that the biggest genocides by far in the 20th century weren't committed by religious idealogies or religious people, they're not necessarily connecting it to atheism
jwood36 1 year ago
@jwood36 This is a bit late, but what you said made me react. Have you read "Mein Kampf"? You can certainly interpret what Hitler wrote in a way that makes him seem like a Catholic fanatic (because he does after all mention God). In contrast, you can't interpret what Stalin said in a way that makes him seem like an "Atheist fanatic", because Atheism is always at its most extreme, anything else is agnosticism. I'm reacting only to this one post of yours, perhaps you admit that you made a mistake.
petterutiful 1 year ago
@petterutiful Stalin was an atheist but didn't kill in the name of atheism, Hitler was catholic but didn't kill in the name of catholicism. It's quite simple really, but it doesn't stop theists and atheists trying to argue against these points.
jwood36 1 year ago
@jwood36 Yes, people can argue about all kinds of stupid stuff, when they don't really have to argue at all.
What I'm saying is that there can never be someone who commits genocide in the name of atheism. There is no way to draw a line between "there is no god" and genocide, because atheism doesn't come equipped with moral values. Catholicism does come with moral values, and some with murderous intent, so genocide can be justified by that religion.
petterutiful 1 year ago
@jwood36 Isn't it great that random people in YouTube comments know more about history than that person calling himself the Pope. Yeah, but *he*'s the great scholar, *he*'s the sophisticated intellectual.
blackwolf1200 1 year ago
I'm an atheist and if I'm wrong it's gods fault as he made me one.
ZaPpaul 1 year ago
Did the woman with the holy water bless it herself, or did she get a priest to give it a pre-protest blessing?
Webbula 1 year ago
He certainly picks easy targets, Christians and Joe Pasquale. He wouldn't have the courage to attack Muslims, and I would love to have to have seen him have a go at Bernard Manning, ( when he was alive). Manning would have taken him to the cleaners.
peeayouel 1 year ago
@peeayouel he does do a routine about dog training school for muslims in which the dogs were trained to fly planes into buildings so i'm afraid you're wrong. i dont agree that he only picks easy targets, his stuff is mainly very challenging to convention. he picks apart not only christians and pasquale, but also the very nature of comedy itself and comedians.
PFCAhammed 1 year ago
@peeayouel Bernard Manning! I don't think so somehow, Stewart Lee would have taken him in as potatoes and spat him out as chips, even Mrs Merton and Victor Meldrew put him in his place
jwood36 1 year ago
Where is this from?
Apriltheses 1 year ago
"But whether you think the people behind me are hysterical bigots or well-intentioned fools they are,nonetheless, divs!". Hahahahahahahha! Can hardly stop laughing....tears of mirth.
grecian300 1 year ago
Mum, yeah? can we have go down to the theatre and done do the god thing again?
thembrown 1 year ago
Much of what people do is done in the name of God. Irishmen blow each other up in his name. Arabs blow themselves up in his name. Imams and ayatollahs oppress women in his name. Celibate popes and priests mess up people's sex lives in his name. Jewish shohets cut live animals' throats in his name.
Richard Dawkins
adlerbr12 1 year ago
Hmmm he got it wrong about the Irish though
jwood36 1 year ago
@jwood36 wars have been fought between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland ,aren't they?.
adlerbr12 1 year ago
@adlerbr12 It would be more accurate to say the war is between republicans and loyalists or British and Irish, take away the religious labels and they would still fight, it all stems back to the colonisation and plantations of Ireland
jwood36 1 year ago
@adlerbr12 yeh but people will find any excuse for killing. god doesnt have anything to do with it - in fact the most murderous regimes have been atheistic societies. highest body count by faaaaaaaaar
PFCAhammed 1 year ago
I'm sorry. I was in "watching serious documentary" mode. But as soon as he said divs that way in his "presenting a serious documentary" monotoned voice..I lolled. Oh he's hilarious. And cheesed off with the "divs". Now that?...was funny.
snapcrackleandpop99 1 year ago
arrrrgh, i just wanna punch them stupid christians
hardyben1 2 years ago 20
Agreed
pizt 1 year ago
@hardyben1 haha hell yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! those f***ers have controlled to world for the longest time and they need to get fed over haha
cruelladevill 1 year ago
@cruelladevill What's fed over? Whatever it is, count me in!
comanchio1976 1 year ago
@cruelladevill as a christian i agree... the church as an organised faith is a cretinous c*nt case, exploiting their positions as power... i believe in god, the holy communion is part of that, but, priests are only human, they represent got alot of the time to help with faith, but they don't represent god full stop. every single person in christianity should see these lines and not be pricks trying to force their views on people... i could liken them to nazis... but i'm above that... kinda :P
aquilascura 1 year ago
Stewart Lee is a god. Or maybe just a prophet. Amen.
patkawasaki 2 years ago 12
Hang on Lee, you said they are from Liverpool? Are they all from there? You had protests wherever it toured. Just because it is IN Liverpool doesn't mean they are ALL from Liverpool. I would have liked to have seen it no matter where a protestor was from. You are IN Liverpool but you are not from there, there is a difference.
moonmatter 2 years ago
"Presumably because it's not 1508"
LOL
Mesnesl 2 years ago 4
divs! lol
gafproductions 2 years ago
Should have changed the Jesus character to Mohammed. Now THAT would create controversy.
ronMexico121 2 years ago
Nah its better to start witht the christians, then move on to the jews, then the muslims, a short break with the rasta's then on with punishing the catholics lol
Zamorano0180 2 years ago
christian's are the most humourless gits going. most muslims i know, and i know a fair few, have a great sense of humour and wouldnt take the least bit of offense at what is in the end a story.
MrHullenzian 2 years ago
Agree entirely. But the radical element of Islam is much more frightening than the radical element of Christianity.
That said, Muslims are always up for a lively argument (in a civil way, of course) whereas the Christians just clap their hands to their ears and go "lalalalalala."
moiphx2 2 years ago
I think what I have learned from my time around muslim people is that they, for the most part, are in terested in furthering their knowledge of other religions, I think they feel it gives them a greater scope of understanding of their own religion. Christians on the other hand seem to, as you said, play the old see no evil hear no evil game, where all other religions may have good ideas but are fundamentaly wrong.
MrHullenzian 2 years ago
Definitely.
Problem is, they've got an army of right-wing tabloids on their side, so the Stewart Lees and whatnot are fairly fucked if they speak out against them.
moiphx2 2 years ago
The intelligent people in the world will always see past the spin tabloid newspapers put on stories, unfortunately it seems those people are few and far between these days.
MrHullenzian 2 years ago
People seem to enjoy being spoonfed disinformation (not to be mistaken with misinformation), feeling like they have no need to find information for themselves and form their own opinions. I would very much like it if there was someone or thing to blame for that but I'm not sure there is!
MrHullenzian 2 years ago
Stuart Lee is a wonderful thing of beauty and greatness, intelligent and articulate, but much more importantly he is fucking hilarious. Im not religous so i cant comment on the topic. But if SL says they are divs then ill go along with that ;)
otanalin101 2 years ago
Is this opera available on DVD?
TJmoneymaker13 2 years ago
Yeah, though I'm not sure who stocks it :S
Togglechen19 2 years ago
I am not saying I am Jesus or even like Jesus...that's not for me to say. It's up to you to make up your own minds as to whether I am a messiah or any other kind of god or demi-god or saint.
vunderground1 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
someone really needs to knock stewart lee off his high horse. hes an at best slightly above average lowbrow comedian who wrote a goofy "satirical" (in the same way that, say, family guy is "satirical") opera which wasnt particularly intelligent or original. he is not fucking voltaire.
someone also needs to make more obvious the direct parallel between the smug sense-of-superiority displayed by obnoxious vocal atheists and the smug sense-of-superiority displayed by the strongly religious
khalithistle 2 years ago
There is a direct parallel. But the atheists will always have the upper hand because of facts. No matter how smug they are.
TheNorthernScum 2 years ago 4
You can prove anything with facts
:-)
RodCow 2 years ago 3
I think Stewart Lee has got every right to have a pop at the ridiculous religious people who attempted to censor his show. Whether the show is good or not doesn't matter, nor does how funny he is or how able he is to write philosophical works.
The parallel can be drawn as you suggest, but ultimately because god doesn't exist, the religious inevitabley end up looking sillier.
andywaggott 2 years ago 4
The difference I would say would be that that sense of thinking you are "correct" stands up to some level of scrutiny. In which case I think he can be "smug" on this topic. I don't take my broken leg to a car mechanic and my broken car to the doctors because I'm scared of offending some constructed notion they have of themselves
Jadabh3 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
this guy thinks he's salman rushdie...
ykoshy 2 years ago
Stewart Lee is brilliant.
MarxBakuninMe 2 years ago 3
the correct way to protest a play or sum such as that is to not go to it plain and simple, vote with your wallet idiots. secondly any sane Christian (like me) knows they don't need to protest something in the name of God because God is omnipotent and doesn't need our help to defend him although if that group managed to get 65000 complaints in, it's possible that maybe they didn't like your show and BBC simply decided they would make a better profit putting on a different show, just a thought
TheGr3mliin 2 years ago 3
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Stewart Lee's a cunt.
GenericInsect1979 2 years ago
you stupid fucking cunt, you fairy, you company man
14dollars 2 years ago
Al Pacino. Love it!
TheNorthernScum 2 years ago
Richard Roma from Premier Properties
14dollars 2 years ago
You're a company man!
TheNorthernScum 2 years ago
And you're a divv.
londonoverground 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
How is this prick even a comedian? Seriously, he is pathetic.
Baldr21 2 years ago
As pathetic as believing in a mythical being and protesting about something you have never even seen like some of the people in this video?
bazzabaz 2 years ago 4
This comment has received too many negative votes show
I don't give a toss about the religious cunts. I'm just saying that Stewart Lee is a shit comedian, because he is shit.
Baldr21 2 years ago
Ahh ok, wouldn't it have been more appropriate to have made this comment on one his other videos? You know, one where he's at least trying to be funny in his own seriously pathetic way? That way, the point you're trying to make won't come across as so irrelevant.
bazzabaz 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
You're right about that, as I typed it I knew I picked the wrong video to be saying it on, but by that time, I thought, "fuck it."
Baldr21 2 years ago
Vote one, move on.
ThatNateGuy 2 years ago 4
Who do you like then, Alan Carr? Keep your opinions to yourself, you fucking bell-end.
SuperRustyBoy 2 years ago 4
shut up ye muppets
jimmychang1 2 years ago
God squad cunts,
God is big enough to look after himself,he is too busy at the moment giving kids cancer,so as he is done with that he will get round to us non belivers dont you worry
CHANNELOMD 2 years ago
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borrrrrrrrrinnnnnnnnggggg
nerdsrulz 2 years ago
i hope you're joking
skatanicskanker
rcs430acd 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
This guy is pretty self reightous, calling those people divs seems pretty hypocritical.
skatanicskanker 2 years ago
how?
meu02136 2 years ago
Oh I don''t know, I can't be bothered to watch it again and remember.
skatanicskanker 2 years ago
ha ha "divs" i havent used that word since year 5
phantomdoodler 2 years ago
please tell me how many people have died at the hands of Christian radicals
What, with the exception of Hitler and the crusades?
ssffaaookk 2 years ago 3
Hitler was an atheist, the Crusades were a long long long time ago. Would you rather stand outside a church and make derogatory comments about Jesus or stand outside a mosque and make derogatory comments about Mohammed? Honest answers only please.
VespaNat 2 years ago
Neither, because it's a waste of time?
For true comparison you would have to commit the same act outside of both a radical Muslim Mosque, and an equally radical Christian Church - and the response is likely going to be very similar.
The fact is Western society has (for a large part) shrugged off antiquated thinking, whilst Islamic custom upheld throughout the East continues to be radicalised does not make. Islamic custom in Britain is just as tempered, but there will always be fruit cakes.
koncorde 2 years ago
In addition Hitler was certainly a religious man, and used Christianity as a crux of many of his "logical" reasons for his opposition to the Jews. He also disliked Catholicism and opposed pretty much any religious observation that didn't suit his own purpose. In that respect he's pretty much on par with any other fundamentalist.
He was far from being an atheist.
How he could reconcile following a Bible with 50% of the content devoted to Judaism was a bone of contention.
koncorde 2 years ago
I would be hard pressed to find a particularly 'radical' Christian church in Britain. I have no problem with any religion, what irks me is liberals like Stuart Lee who think they are terribly clever offending Christians but would't have the balls to do the same to Muslims, would he have had a character symbolising Mohammed in Jerry Springer the Opera, and if he had would there have been a bunch of protesters singing outside the theatre. I think we all know the answer to both questions
VespaNat 2 years ago
I don't know that it's terribly clever, but they are (as an institution of power and influence) open to criticism in a way that Islam isn't. We lack the same cultural references, and understanding required to satire effectively.
Stephen Green and co do not represent "Christians" in the same way that the majority of radical Muslims do not represent Islam.
If Christian fundamentalists responded as Islamicists have been shown to respond, I am certain Lee and co would be equally reticent.
koncorde 2 years ago
I'm afraid I don't buy this 'lacking the same cultural references' excuse. I read somewhere that Stewart Lee had stated a similar reason for his lack of criticsim/satire of Islam. I don't think it's intellectual cowardice, I think it is due to fear of actual physical harm. No media outlet would show anything that might enrage militant muslims as could be seen by the cartoon incident
VespaNat 2 years ago
I don't dispute that there is a fear of reprisal. My original comment was that radicals respond in the same way regardless of which religion (or even political beliefs) they follow.
Comparing Stewart Lee's "fear" of the Cup of Tea and a Biscuit Christianity we have in the UK to the Chop Your Head Off Islamist extremists is a tad unfair.
Hence my original point that you would an equally fanatical Christian sect to compare reactions with, to see if it's an issue of enlightenment and "progress".
koncorde 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
I'm afraid I cannot concur with your point that religious radicals respond in the same way, I have yet to hear of Christian radicals committing murder in the name of their religion. There maybe the same fervour in all religions but christians appear less likely to resort to violence than their Muslim counterparts
VespaNat 2 years ago
IRA? Russian Ultras? KKK? Army of God? 1996 Olympic Bombings? Lambs of Christ? Abortion clinic bombings?
Meanwhile the Jewish had the Irgun, Gush Emunim Underground and TNT.
Again, comparing Cup of Tea and a Biscuit Christianity in Britain with the incidence of reported radical Islam is unfair.
Most religion (or political and racial ideology) at its most fundamental is just as dangerous.
koncorde 2 years ago 3
I wouldn't agree that the IRA or KKK were motivated by religion but rather have other agendas based on territorial politics and racism respectively. Have to concede ignorance on the Russian Ultras, army of God and Lambs of Christ. I believe I stated erly on the abortion clinic bombings are one area of Christian fanatacism, unhead of in Britain though. Wasn't the Olympic bombing carried out by a lone lunatic? If not then I stand corrected on that point.
VespaNat 2 years ago
The IRA are a politicised and national entity now, but are still different from say ETA who select their targets not by religious denomination.
KKK meanwhile is a white supremacy movement. At the core however is Protestantism. Rather than just being "racist" they also targetted Catholics, Jews, Muslims, and anyone who didn't subscribe to their point of view (or fit the profile they were looking for in their towns).
koncorde 2 years ago
I don't think the IRA could be said to have slected their targets by religous denomination. I'm sure they killed a lot of catholics during their bombing campaign. The KKK I agree do have Protestantism at their heart
VespaNat 2 years ago
See, there was this little thing called The Crusades...
trallala 2 years ago 2
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Yes, quite a while ago as I believe I alluded to in an earlier post. Nice patronising liberal tone though, cheers for that
VespaNat 2 years ago
Liberal tone? Sarcasm works independently of political beliefs, mate.
trallala 2 years ago 11
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Indeed it does, apologies if I wrongly interpreted your political bent. It's just that 'The Crusades' seems to be the main argument liberals trot out when trying to convince others that christians are as bloodthirsty as radical muslims. Still definitely patrronising though
VespaNat 2 years ago
People are people, regardless of what they believe in. What makes groups react differently is their LEADERS - you'll notice that very few individuals will do ANYTHING resembling a terrorist attack unless a human authority figure is telling them to - be it Osama bin Laden, the pope, the bishop of Canterbury, or an imam.
Leaders change - people don't.
trallala 2 years ago 2
Blimey! Not quite the tack I expected you to take in our discussion! I will contemplate your response further and respond forthwith. Any diffrences in opinion aside I think we can both agree that the BNP winning a seat in the Euro elections NOT a positive development.
VespaNat 2 years ago
Oh, most definitely not, no.
trallala 2 years ago
My argument for blood thirsty christians is more like: abortion doctor murdered, some guy shot up the Holocaust museum, the klan, Northern Ireland... radical is radical no matter what guise it wears.
cgrbutterflyfish 2 years ago
You don't mean Liberals, you mean "non-Christians". Or are you too fucking stupid to know the difference?
mooseclamps 2 years ago 4
Someone seems to have deleted the post which illicited your response and I can't remember what it was. Suffice to say I'm not "too fucking supid" to know the differerence between liberals and non-christians though. Perhaps you could remind me what i said to provoke such profanity?
VespaNat 2 years ago
I've done a bit of checking on the Hitler/Atheism question. There doesn't appear to be any definative answer one way or the other. If it is proven he was a 'believer' then I concede my error. Even assuming this to be the case it was twisted nationalism with an unhealthy dose of racism that inspired him, not any religious beliefs he might have
VespaNat 2 years ago
They key thing with Hitler was that he didn't subscribe to a singular "religion" because none of them individually agreed with his stance. He used what was at hand and suited his purpose.
His ideology that informed Nazi policy included elements from Roman and Greek culture, as well as the taboo , arcane and fundamentalist elements of Christianity.
As with pretty much anything else - it was perverted to the needs and desires of a guy that would crown himself God given chance.
koncorde 2 years ago
Hilter was very likely not an atheist. Look that up. There are extensive grounds for debate on whether he was or not. Just saying.
Volterator 2 years ago 2
I'd rather deal with the 'div's' than muslim radicals who might find themselves 'offended' by a cartoon. Typical leftie, very brave slagging off christians who at the worst will sing some daft song at you. Radical Christianity really is a terrible threat at the moment isn't it. Nice bit of self promotion though!!
VespaNat 2 years ago
VespaNat, there is no difference between christian radicals and muslim radicals.
bettyklang 2 years ago
Apart from the death count. I'm not a fan of any religious fundamentalism but please tell me how many people have died at the hands of Christian radicals (the occasional US anti-abortionist aside)?? The worst they will do is sing a daft song at you and pray for your soul.
VespaNat 2 years ago
Please tell me your stupidity is intended in this comment?
adam27pfc 2 years ago
To whose 'stupidity' are you referring? If it is mine then please point out a single error in my statement.
VespaNat 2 years ago
So, you want people to give you an example, without using the examples that you have arbitrarily forbidden?
asubjectiveopinion 2 years ago
Religious belief is a personal and private choice. I personally dont believe in god, but i dont try to force this on other people, and equally, people who do believe shouldn't force it on others, and should mind their own fucking business
skacrazy76 2 years ago 3
It's just like the abortion issue, if you're a Christian and think abortion is murder then don't have an abortion. Don't go around forcing your biggoted opinion down the throats of people why couldn't care less what you think.
hansvalen 2 years ago
I have great respect for that vicar -- confidence, security and faith in his beliefs (even if I disagree with said beliefs).
mtjasnewell 2 years ago
I went to that show, it was great.
anjinsan9000 2 years ago
Personally, at first glance, anything with the name Jerry Springer attached to it, at least at first blush, would not be worth the price of admission. But I would defend the right of someone else to see it if they wished, and would exercise my right to ignore the programme if I wished.
imaof4 2 years ago
I'm not familiar with the brouhaha over this show. Love the quote from the vicar "Christianity is true or it isn't, ... you don't need to protect God." Mythology, while accurate in describing religion, and generally shouldn't be thought of as insulting, nevertheless, the inference is there that religion is not true. The greater issue, of course, is freedom of speech.
imaof4 2 years ago
Christofascists. It makes sense, if you can't get to children early enough to brainwash them with threats of torture then resort to censorship. It's exactly this sort of behaviour that makes me feel adversarial (to put it mildly) to the Bronze Age Arabic Judaeo-Christo-Islamic mythology. It's sheer poison.
catalyst8 2 years ago