Star Trek 2009 Movie Review/Discussion with Decadent7 - Part 3

[MissMael]

I don't understand why JJ found it necessary to make an alternative universe. TMP had an updated look but it didn't excuse those changes as alternative. TWOK had again updated Enterprise and the uniforms, that film didn't an alternative universe excuse for the different look.

It's like telling the Fringe fans that the whole series is going to be set in the alternate universe from now on and only with the alt. characters.

I hope this makes it clear why JJ pissed me off.

[fadedfromglory]

ok so i am not really a star trek fan but could you explain to me something i have wondering about?

ok so i dont watch star trek at all but i just bout the new movie and was a little confused. ok so i thought Spock was killed in wrath of khan ? and dont even know if thats true. so how was he alive when that red giant star wiped out that planet ? i really have no clue i just dont watch enough star trk

[Zaranyzerak]

@fadedfromglory He died at the end of Wrath of Khan, then was brought back to life in the next movie Search for Spock. Wrath of Khan was the first in a trilogy of interconnected Star Trek movies. The two movies that follow it explain how Spock came back.

[fadedfromglory]

@Zaranyzerak thank you i was a little confused

[intermender]

maybe the red matter was a dosage thing: 1 drop per planet.;) But science has always been secondary to the story in star trek and rightly so.

[intermender]

The people who refuse to acknowledge something as intuitive as a fork in the road have some kind of dogmatic agenda? Even prof brown explained with clear diagrams in back to the future so everyone understands it and can accept it within the context of film as suspension of disbelief, so its not that, I think its deliberate coteric obsfiscation :)

[intermender]

In any discussion about what is Star Trek, I think its significant that Leonard Nimoy agreed to be in it and even expressed profound praise for the reimagining on occasion? I mean don't dissenters have to argue that Leonard Nimoy doesn't know what Star Trek is compared to themselves?

[intermender]

@intermender sorry, just repeated a point you already made in the vid!

[tgbotg]

@intermender We Trekkies still think for ourselves. Nimoy likes it, Zaranyzerak likes it, you seem to like it, I do not. I respect your opinions, however. I rated it on two scales: as a movie, and as a Trek movie. As a movie it was pretty good. As a Trek movie, it was horrific. As for the alternate timeline, some things would have changed due to Nero's incursion, some things would. Nero's incursion does not explain every change, like Spock & Uhura, but it does explain Kirk's change in attitude.

[tgbotg]

@tgbotg wouldn't*

[intermender]

@tgbotg Disagree, the butterfly effect illustrates how a minor change at an early stage of a complex process can produce a wholly novel outcome: our own evolution is a comparable example or subsequent development of an organism from dna. There was a whole pardigm shift due to Nero' incursion; and time at the quantum level where decision is made is of the order of 10^-44 seconds. The Spock/Uhura romance IS explained by the realisation of untapped potential with novel circumstance. Next problem.

[tgbotg]

@intermender We've already established in past episodes and movies that the butterfly effect isn't so strong, e.g. "Tapestry." There are opposing theories, and Trek has often sided with the negative ("Year of Hell" being an exception, but I think it was handled better than this). Even if they side with the butterfly effect, the goal of bringing back the original characters is lost. It cheapens beautiful episodes like "This Side of Paradise" and "The Naked Time."

[intermender]

@tgbotg your argument assumes the butterfly effect is dependent on previous outcomes. The whole point is even a minute change is very likely to produce a novel situation because of the astronomical numbers of possiblities along a chain of consequences. Citing past episodes that misunderstand this does't lend validity to your argument nor support your judgements any further than mere personal opinion. Harking after absolutes in a universe that continually demonstrates emergence is illogical.

[Cyphox]

"Look at the new Enterprise, why is the Borg in it?"

Because you're a dumbass, because no one knows their name at this time, they don't even introduce themselfes with "We are the Borg" in this Episode.

[tgbotg]

@Cyphox Yeah, it was also a sequel to First Contact. Since he obviously liked that movie, he should like Enterprise's "Regeneration." He should probably see it before commenting .. I was surprised at how well it was done, actually .. btw, I was not a fan of the new movie. "Acquisition" was awful, though.

[bluto1992]

Hey Z-Man, are you going to buy the Blu-ray of the new Star Trek movie. I highly recommend that you do. The 3-disc set actually has a hundred days of worthwhile features unlike another big movie, (cough cough DARK KNIGHT). The picture and sound is superb too.

[Zaranyzerak]

Definitely.  It's been on my must buy list since we saw the first 5 minutes of the movie in theaters. ;)

[nightman1963a]

I liked the way they revamped the characters, and the fact that it was an altered timeline doesn't bother me, but I'm still unclear as to how it's explained that it's paralle universe. I mean I watched the mind-meld scene with old Spock on the DVD, and I've heard him "Tell" young Kirk he's from the future, but I don't think he says he's from a different universe. Unless of course it's hard to understand him, because of the echo in his voice during the meld.

Still though, I like the changes.

[skt556]

shes cute if i was 18 i would be happy

[tvcollective001]

Is that guy in the background such a jealous cling-on that he needs to spy in on his girlfriends chat with this guy. Feels threatened by a middle age guy who doesnt even live within distance? I would have told him to piss off.

[Kratos87Fan19]

No dude, he's part of the review because he's welcome to do so.

[Decadent7]

@tvcollective001 I didn't really see him as being jealous after all he is my husband and sean had invited him to come along and do the vlog as well.

[TheScullcrusher2]

Damn that chick is hot..

[Zaranyzerak]

Holy shit grow a brain and buy some manners you moron.

[bluto1992]

@Zaranyzerak

You tell that sumbitch Z-Man!!!

[Decadent7]

why don't you try again once you actually post some of your own content. grow up.

[GundamWarrior1]

Don't care for the Deep Space Nine Slammin. It is, in my opinion, the best Trek series.

[Zaranyzerak]

Wasn't slamming at all, just said that I felt there was simply TOO MUCH Trek at the time and I grew tired of the whole thing.

[USSJaneway]

Nice review you two, I enjoyed it.

I love Trek (Voyager) and Star Wars, so I liked this more bombastic approach. Its also why I like VOY: it has action AND cerebral thinking, which is fucking awesome, instead of just showing people sitting around a table talking FOREVER. (I'm looking at you, TNG. And I'm yawning.) The new movie is a different take on the old, and I applaud that.

LOL @ 'Nobody pops out of the womb being able to fucking fly the Enterprise right off the bat, it takes practise!'

[SBaby]

1:04 - Fanboyish? That'd be a good word to use.

[theanimecollector555]

What do you think of war between Star Trek nerds and Stars Wars nerds. They will kill eacheach in the name of the movies and the show, look it up.

[sagasky]

Okay that whole thing, is stupid, it's not real, its all good and fun, and to be honest, those who love star trek but hate star wars, will be upset when they see the star wars easter eggs in star trek.

[Cabzilla06]

I am a sci-fi fan but I have never really delved into Star Trek because I did not know where to start. This fantastic review has definitely made me more eager to start right from the beginning. Also hearing how good the reboot is to the franchise also helps. Also being able to start at the beginning with new blu ray sets is not a bad way to start.

[Decadent7]

Seriously?

You don't effect me, you are just words on a screen and i could give a fuck about what you think. My teeth aren't fake, I also am not under the belief that i am a 'vampire' i like body mod's and that is the extent of it. And yes you are FUCKING STUPID, just look at the horrible spelling ur and baout? hahaha

[DavidPrime83]

I Don't Know, I Kind of like the teeth? love the review!

[sagasky]

Bet he blew a gasket when he saw the tiger guy off ripleys believe it or not..

[DavidPrime83]

Dumb ass

[araciel82]

People are just pissed that the original actors are too old to hack it anymore so they needed some new blood... no biggie

[DamageIncM]

Here's a question:

So, now I'm quite interested in watching some Star Trek some time.

I'd like to follow it in the right order, to follow the story/stories better.

But since they're young(er) in this last film, would I or could I watch it first and then start with the original series?

I know things probably "come back" when you do it the other way around, but you know.

If you'd watch it in the complete chronological order...

[DamageIncM]

You know, I'm more of a 'Knight Rider'-fan of sorts, that's something I personally watched.

I saw a couple of episodes the new series, but they also pretty much messed it up.

Point being, they should leave some of the essentials in and not change those around.

Even if they change some things around those essentials.

Now they have like a smartazz incvincible talking car with no heart in some kind of new action-series.

Just what the heck...

[Zaranyzerak]

Hehehe...well, if you're new to Star Trek, the new movie is definitely a good place to start. :)

[Disthron]

Awesome review guys.

[Maximara]

I think what has some fan up in arms is that so many ST TV episodes that seems to say time travel does NOT work the way it is shown in the movie. See "esterday's Enterprise, Past Tense, Year of Hell, The Visitor, Time and Again, Timeless, Relativity, and Endgame for examples. Also the fanfic movies "In Harms Way" and "Of Gods and Men" follow these "rules" and the second is basically the plot of this movie.

[Zaranyzerak]

The problem is, fans are assuming this is JUST a time travel story, which it isn't. It's an alternate universe story with time travel ELEMENTS to it. So naturally the normal "rules" of a ST time travel story don't exactly fit. I've sent you some links that help to clear things up.

[Maximara]

The problem is per "City on the Edge or Forever," "Yesterday's Enterprise", "First Contact", "Past Tense", "The Visitor", "Time and Again", "Future's End", "Before and After", "Year of Hell", "Timeless", "Relativity", and "Endgame" you CANNOT create alternate timelines by messing around in the past--you mess up YOUR timeline. Now if Nero had ARRIVED in a parallel reality rather than CREATE one there be no problem.

[Zaranyzerak]

There is no problem. Again, this is NOT a straightforward time travel story, it is an alternate universe story. Nero passed through the black hole into an alternate universe, simple as that. Spock Prime followed him, hence why he is in that universe as well. Due to time dilation within the black hole, there was a 25-year gap between the two universes. Read the articles, watch the movie again - it's all in there.

[Zaranyzerak]

According to quantum theory, an alternate, parallel universe is created every time a decision is made. Meaning there are, in theory, an infinite number of variant universes running parallel to each other. Some with only minor differences, some with major differences depending on the weight of the alterations. Such as in my butterfly example. So yes, messing about with history WILL create an alternate timeline. In this case, Nero attempted to alter history, but did so in the wrong universe.

[Zaranyzerak]

If anything, it proves BOTH what you're saying and what I'm saying. You can't alter your own timeline, as per time travel "rules." Spock Prime was unaffected by the changes, because in HIS universe the timeline was unchanged. If anything, the fact that both he and Nero still exist unchanged in the past of the alternate universe is proof that they are not in the same Universe, since they would have both been affected by the changes and a paradox would have occured.

[Maximara]

Actually "City on the Edge of Forever", "Yesterday's Enterprise", "ST:First Contact", "Past Tense", "Before and After" show other wise. Go an WATCH "Past Tense" and try to match what goes on in it with what the Star Trek movie is claiming. Protected by strange particles the Defiant can actually SEE the changes in the main timeline thanks to Sisko's actions in the past. Try to explain THAT.

[Maximara]

How does the Temporal Cold War that covered 13 episodes in Enterprise fit into this explication?  The whole premise of the Temporal Cold War was that messing around in the past DID change the present and this was stated several times. So if that was NOT what was going on what was the point of the Temporal Cold War?

[Maximara]

Kindly explain this nonsense in the context of "City on the Edge of Forever", "Yesterday's Enterprise", "First Contact", "Past Tense", "The Visitor", "Time and Again", "Future's End", "Before and After", "Year of Hell", "Timeless", "Relativity", and "Endgame". Until THAT happens you are just blowing smoke.

[RazMansReality]

Dude come down, parallel universe means parallel time line, nothing else from other shows or movies matter. Everything in that time line remains unchanged. If that wren't the case old Spock & Nero would have been affected by the changes in this universe which they weren't.

[Maximara]

Actually no parallel universe does NOT mean parallel time line. Parallel universes can have different physical laws while parallel time lines are simply variants on the base timeline. GURPS Infinite Worlds explains this very well in far greater detail then I can in 500 characters.

[RazMansReality]

Ahh well I stand corrected but if I'm not mistaken my point still rings true. The original Star Trek universe remains in tact if not old Spock & Nero would have been effected by the changes which they were not.

[Maximara]

Actually we don't know that because the"rules" were the time traveler wasn't effected by the changes they made as long as they stayed in the past. See "City on the Edge of Forever" "Yesterday's Enterprise", "First Contact" and "Past Tense" to see how travelers are "protected" from the changes in the timeline when they are in the past.

[RazMansReality]

True but as Z has already pointed out this story is based on quantum theory. According to quantum theory, an alternate, parallel universe is created every time a decision is made. Meaning there are, in theory, an infinite number of variant universes running parallel to each other. Some with only minor differences, some with major differences depending on the weight of the alterations. Such as in his butterfly example.

[RazMansReality]

So yes, messing about with history WILL create an alternate timeline. In this case, Nero attempted to alter history, but did so in the wrong universe. Anyway we could debate this all our lives dude any Star Trek fan is more than aware that it's world has made a living contradicting itself. It is Sci Fi after all so let's just enjoy it for what it meant to be. A new start for a new generation of fans.

[Maximara]

Actually in Bell's Theorem form Quantum Physics you have three outcomes: superlubminal, superdeterminism, and many worlds theory. Most of the previous Star Trek time travel stories combined the superdeterminism and many worlds theory models with Data in "Parallels" explaining "all possibilities do happen IN DIFFERENT QUANTUM REALITIES" and that this "quantum signature is CONSTANT *and cannot be changed*" The old method was backed up by QP as well.

[Maximara]

So if you went back and mess with things you would change YOUR QUANTUM REALITY and NOT create another one. It also deals with the sticky problem of where the energy for the universe to split comes from the other version of MWT has. Feynman's multiple history version of Many World theory is one such example. So MWT is not as simple as it is being made out to be. There are variants on exactly WHAT it is and one variant explains the old methods of Time Travel but not this one.

[Zaranyzerak]

Sigh...so you want me to explain a science fiction concept based on CURRENT scientific theory in relation to science fiction from 43 years ago? Star Trek continuity has been ret-conned and re-arranged so many times it boggles the mind to even try to wrap one's head around it and make sense of it all. Accept it or not, the new movie IS a parallel universe. The writers say so, SPOCK says so IN the movie, and every online Trek resource out there says so. I'm done, have fun.

[Maximara]

Yes it is there "Anthony: Star Trek has not always been consistent in this regard. For example both "Yesterdays Enterprise" and "City on the Edge of Forever" seem to follow the Back to the Future rules of time travel, where new timelines overwrite previous timelines.

Bob: We have to deal with it, with the fact that Star Trek episodes that dont conform to our theory of it, also do not conform to the latest greatest, most highly tested scientific theory in human history. "

[Zaranyzerak]

Exactly,. So current Trek is adapting its science to conform to CURRENT scientific theory. Just as it has always done in the past. Not everything is going to match up perfectly, it can't when you're dealing with 43 years' worth of stories. It hasn't matched up in the past, it doesn't match up perfectly now, but the point is...WHO CARES! It's an entertaining film, it's a new lease on life for these classic characters, and it exists outside previous Trek continuity. End of story.

[Zaranyzerak]

And finally, for the LAST TIME - it's not a time travel story. It's an alternate universe story. Or more specifically, and alternate reality story. The time travel "rules" as they apply within the context of those OTHER stories does not apply, because it is not even CLOSE to the same thing. So no, those episodes don't conform to it because A) they're based on mumbo jumbo sci-fi "science" rather than ACTUAL THEORY like the new one is, and B) they are TIME TRAVEL stories, which this ISN'T.

[SBaby]

3:44 - Sort of like the Sonic multiverse.

[tristar1215]

dude ur the greatest i love ur reviews but i hate this movie i hate it with every fiber pf y being being i hate this movie and i hate jj abrahms im sorry i love trek especialy ds9 to be fair its a good movie just dont callit trek i feel to this movie like u feel anbout the new battle satr galactica i cant accept it s trek

[sagasky]

With that said, on the new transformers movie, I was wondering if you plan on getting the new g1 season one set. I'd be interested in hearing a review on it.

[Zaranyzerak]

I'm actually planning to get the Matrix of Leadership Complete Collection rather than the season sets. More extras, the whole series in one fell swoop, and the packaging is just flat-out AWESOME. Shout's doing the same thing with G.I. Joe - releasing the Seasons, but also putting out the complete series in a special footlocker set.

[sagasky]

Ah, well see, when the first movie came out the released the seasons, but it was from china, with chinese captioning. I'm trying to find one with good quality sound and picture, with english captioning, considering I'm hearing impaired. I have not seen all of G1. And quite confused with the G2 idea, because from what I've read G2 is G1 with different intro and annoying cg boxes. What I'm trying to figure out, is when megs get his tank mode and all of the other main characters are introduced.

[Zaranyzerak]

Megatron never had his tank mode in the original series, that was strictly in the anime shows some years later.

[sagasky]

In all 90 of the episodes? Its confusing because his toy, that came out from the 80s or so, was called g2 tank mode.

[Zaranyzerak]

98 episodes (and the animated movie), and yes. The only reason the toy was changed originally was because there was some objection to the original Megatron transforming into such a realistic looking gun. At the time that G1 ended, Megatron had been replaced by Galvatron, so it wasn't even an issue at the time. It wasn't until quite some time later that the Megatron Tank toy was made.

[Zaranyzerak]

The G2 series was just 65 selected episodes of the G1 series re-edited to incorporate a new CG intro and CG wipes between scenes. But otherwise, it was the same show. Megatron's Tank Mode didn't appear in any of the U.S. shows, only some of the anime ones.

[sagasky]

Anime, meaning armada? The only one I know of is robots in disguise that is an older one.

[Zaranyzerak]

There are waaayy more than that. The first anime series was Headmasters, whjch more or less continued from the end of Season 3 of the U.S. series. It was followed by Masterforce, then Victory. Fast forward a few years, and there's Robots in Disguise, Armada, Energon and Cybertron. Then there is also Beast Wars II and Beast Wars Neo which split off from the Beast Wars series.

[sagasky]

Oh, it was called headmasters? how good was it? Any with english subs or so? I am eager to watch these, see I have the toys, and because of that, I want to know the history of them..LOL. Thanks zarany! :D

[dvd6441]

HEY ZARANYZERAK, nothing more to say than by far the best collaboration video you ever made. I know this is abrupt but there has been A LOT of criticism for the new Transformers movie which I am about to see today and wondering how you feel about the criticism?

[Zaranyzerak]

I'm keeping an open mind regarding the new TF movie. I liked aspects of the first one, but the lifelong TF fan in me was annoyed by a lot of things. I'll likely do some kind of a review once I see it.

[sagasky]

This is a repost of what I said, if it shows up, just delete this one. They are cute( decadent7 and her spouse).

I think one thing was not mentioned, a seemingly what I though, was a random casting, tyler perry.

[Zaranyzerak]

Well, we wanted to focus primarily on the main characters with regard to the casting. And while Tyler Perry is interesting, he wasn't really a major character.

[sagasky]

True, but you have to be surprised in some way to see him..lol

[Decadent7]

I actually brought that up when we wern't rolling, although i had forgotten his name. I just found it to be such and odd random cameo

[bringeroffunerals]

Im gonna get these Star Trek Original Series on blu ray

[1337Five]

I bought the season 1 blu ray after seeing this movie

[Zaranyzerak]

Hehehe...yeah, we bought our S1 Blu-ray the same day, right after leaving the theater. :) It was already on my must-buy list, but the movie got me all fired up to get it right away. Haven't regretted it for a second, it's a great set! :)

[Zaranyzerak]

Can't believe I forgot to mention "Mirror, Mirror" from TOS. Probably one of the most OBVIOUS parallel universe stories right there...

[sagasky]

Enterprise C?

[bringeroffunerals]

Can you do a Star Wars discussion please

[Geeoh19]

Zaranyzerak - Master of Quantum Physics!

[sagasky]

I posted here, or I thought I did, did you get the comments?

[Zaranyzerak]

Hmmm...this is the only comment of yours I see on this video. YouTube Time Warp delaying comments? Or YouTube Black Hole devouring them? Who knows...

[sagasky]

Or parallel universes...

[Lauzzy81]

Great review ;)

[dtotheanielip1]

Great review man! Can you tell what next? I'm really looking forward to it.

[Zaranyzerak]

Thanks! I actually enjoyed your Citizen Kane rant too, btw. Even though it's one of my all time fave movies... :) "Hey, want to see the Greatest Movie of ALL TIME?" lol! I love it, as a significant piece of movie history (and just as a film, but I'm a sucker for Orson Welles just generally), I actually hated it when I first sa it too, it grew on me later. But that said, yes I do think the AFI lists could definitely use some updating. And yes, Memento is amazing!

[chosenagain]

i expect decadent7 and you to do a review of the star trek sequel when it comes out.

[chosenagain]

i absolutely love it when he's injecting him and he says "STOP IT!"

Hilarious!

Scotty and Chekov hilarious.

[Palmcrusher]

what i found stupid about the star trek movie is how they blew up the entire jar of red matter that made a huge black hole. then after nero dies(? not sure) the writers just totally overlook that its still there.

[Decadent7]

You do make a very good point

[Zaranyzerak]

Yep, add that one to the plot hole list...hehehe.

[RazMansReality]

Flippin fantastic you guys! Oh the joys of uber fanboy geakness! So enjoyed every single bit of this! BTW guys check out my latest comment on part 2. I know reason behind the super brightness I just forgot to post it before.

[Vermillion1000]

the borg are in enterprise cos of first contact, ZZ even sed tht they dont clean everything up and you see the borg cube at the beginning of first contact crash on earth n thts the cube tht is on enterprise,

[Zaranyzerak]

And I don't want to see or hear ignorant comments like that about my good friends. Guess what - you've just been unsubbbed.

[sagasky]

That was very rude! If you don't like it, then don't watch. Whenever I voice my opinion on something I don't like, I am not rude about it. And if that is not possible, I don't comment or watch at all.

[Zaranyzerak]

Exactly! It's like out Mommies and Daddies taught us - "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." Looks like he got thumbed down into oblivion already. My viewers rock. :D

[Decadent7]

You are a fucking idiot.

[ThePuzzleBoxDealer]

You can sink yer teeth into me anytime Decadent7.

[Decadent7]

Hahaha Why thank you, Can i have a puzzle box? I have always had a strange fondness for the Cenobites

[Zaranyzerak]

Alright, ENOUGH. I left you unblocked simply because you've been a viewer of mine for a while, and I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. For all I know your comment might have been the result of a bad day, it happens. but clearly you're just an asshole. If you're so fucking shallow that you can't look past someone's APPEARANCE and listen to what they have to say, then I truly pity you. Goodbye, kindly stay off my channel.

[bijankarim]

can u guys review transformers 2??

[Decadent7]

You are right sean, i did look rather annoyed at the end hahaha

[Zaranyzerak]

Hahaha! And what's more...I'm pretty sure *I* gave it to *you* originally. ;) But i wasn't about t get into it then, of course. :D

[bringeroffunerals]

I agree with you with the new film getting new fans and wanting to see the old films and TV series because ive done that

I want to see the old films and the old tv series because of this new film

[Dannyfaye]

would u and decadent do more vids together again?

[Decadent7]

I have already informed Sean that anytime he want's me to do a video with him i will