@armyboy24 Jaaj, it´s funny, but Katana is original from Japan, if you say that katana is chinese sword, so Japan is China, Japanese culture is China... that´s not right, Katana was EVOLVED from chinese sword like all Japanese culture is from China
@koka270 - I never said katana IS Chinese sword. I said it originated from China. And after that, you can even expand your vocab and beautify it with words like evolved, changed, modified, altered developed or whatever. Katana has its origins from China~ =)
@armyboy24 Agree!!! There are still Tang Daos in Museums in Japan. They called Tang Daos(唐刀) "Karatachi" (唐大刀). And I also saw a Chinese Han styled Dao in another museum. They are called Han Dao(漢刀) or Huan Shou Dao(環首刀)in Chinese but the Japs call it "Kantoutachi"(環頭大刀).
@RaiAntou - That's great news. But I feel pain when i hear ancient Chinese cultural relics or stuff are (permanently) exhibited in other countries. The worst kind is the British museum, where they looted millions of cultural treasures from China & other parts of the world and exhibited it as if it belongs to them. Sadly most of them are kept rotting in their underground basement without care or supervision. Sigh.Go away...let me feel the sadness and despair in the darkness of my silent scream.
@ihaterobbie123 - That's as good as saying Ramen originated in Japan. But truth be told, it has its origins from China, and further developed in Japan to become todays Japanese Ramen. Same thing for katana. It has its origins from China, further developed in Japan to become todays Japanese Katana. Nope, your applying of the "everyone is African" argument would be flawed here because we are talking about cultural assets and heritages. It is different from genetic endowment or heredity.
@armyboy24 You're simply using the term in a different manner. The influences that changed the chokuto into the modern katana were purely Japanese.
And yes, with the migration of humans throughout the world you could argue that all cultures have one origin, making this whole conversation pointless, in this sense your argument is self-defeating, a mere observation of cultural differentiation operating in much the same manner as stem cells (different function, same coded information).
@ihaterobbie123 - No. you cannot argue that "all" cultures comes from one origin. This is because you would have to first establish the original source that you claimed to have led to the development of all cultures, such as cultural heritage, traditions, assets & so on. Your debate of cultural differentiation operating in much the same manner as stem cells is a one-sided perspective. And would end up as a debate on whether cultural heritages, traditions or assets are work of nature or nurture.
i visited Sadakazu II in Japan he gave me a book with the history of swords. I looked in the book and the oldest swords were straight and he told me it was because it was made after Chinese swords of the time. Takahashi Sadatsugu became the first Living National treasure in 1955 and his son, Sadaichi (later Sadakazu II) also became a Living National Treasure in 1971. Takahashi Sadatsugu made swords for the Emperor of Japan.
@ihaterobbie123 i visited Sadakazu II in Japan he gave me a book with the history of swords. I looked in the book and the oldest swords were straight and he told me it was because it was made after Chinese swords of the time. Takahashi Sadatsugu became the first Living National treasure in 1955 and his son, Sadaichi (later Sadakazu II) also became a Living National Treasure in 1971. Takahashi Sadatsugu made swords for the Emperor of Japan.
Tamahagane is produced in a single tatara (smelter) in Shimane Prefecture Japan - which is controlled by the NBTHK (Society for the Preservation of the Japanese Sword). They will NOT sell it to anyone except registered JAPANESE tosho (swordsmiths) and so lengthy discussions about a Chinese blade being made of tamahagane are ultimately rather pointless.
Yenno what else is neat though? If you have a grasp of human taxonomy and trait recognition, you can actually tell the difference between a Japanese person and a Chinese person just by looking at them, often enough. The Japanese are genetically distinct enough from the mainland groups that they are visually distinct, notably in their facial bone structure, which features a somewhat more square jaw and angular features than the traditionally 'rounder' face of mainland Chinese. Neat stuff.
Very good video :) Notice how the blade is forged straight, but emerges from the water with the classic ninhoto katana curve. This is because the back metal of the sword cools faster than the front. This also has the effect of bending the already super-hardened blade metal backwards gently, causing thousands of microscopic stress fractures along the very thinnest edge of the sharpened blade, which have the cumulative effect of producing a micro-serrated edge, like a razor blade.
Ok, you mean to tell me that Alusnovalotus has seen japanese masters in "compitition" (how can you be more vague?) and has also, with his combat expertise, judged who would win in a fight accurately. Not only is it stupid to assume the victor of a fight before two people meet it's also utterly rediculous to listen to somebody like him.
I've seen you around you know, you're not pro-china, you're anti-japan. I only see you argue against japan on ANYTHING (eg. vikings).
W/E mate =] I'm sure you have seen loads of great swordsmen from both Japan and China. It's pretty commonplace for people on the internet to have seen such things, but I've never even met someone who's done a martial arts pilgrimage.
Stop BSing, if you were a dedicated swordsman you'd know that the term "master" is a westernisation of senior teacher. There are no masters, mastery implies infallability, a concept rejected by both the Chinese and Japanese. Stop spouting lies.
@ihaterobbie123 - that alusnovalotus guy is so full of shit , another legend in his own lunchtime - " fear not the weapon , bla , bla bla - he's more full of shit than that
mountainous ninja guy - and he definitely sucks ass . LOL
wow, this coming form a loser who watches this stuff and takes it seriously??? please! watching a hundred king fu movies doesn't make you an expert, asshole! you're probably an exact copy of comic collector guy from the simpsons, some fat lifeless mass who has nothing better to do or better way to vent his bitterness than on youtube!!! Stick the sword up your ass and do us all a favor!
Hmm...yeah sure we just watch the movies. Your blind assumption is completely correct...urgh.
Instead of singing the song I've heard all too often I'll change the tone a little, I've been doing martial arts since age 8. I started with kendo and have done various others and I'm now 17 (kendo still going strong).
Let me tell you something, neither I nor you will ever see a chinese "master" fight a senior japanese sensei...it doesn't happen.
I know this is an old topic, but I had to get involved right here.
'and I'm now 17' doesnt instantly scream wisdom and experience, but that's more of a side point.
As for chinese versus japanese sword fighters, Master versus Sensei may be a crock of shit, but I wouldn't doubt that there have been matches pitting chinese and japanese swordsmanship styles. There are mixed martial arts expos all the time, all over the world, why should sword based arts not have them. after all.
In chinese movies, the chinese win, in japanese movies, the japanese win, that's how it is, there's no foundation whatsoever to say that either is better as neither country conquered the other and MMA isn't a blood-sport.
I've tried european, chinese and japanese martial arts and I can tell you that all combat is essentially the same. Wisdom is irrelevant, experience is everything, anybody who disagrees should try it before spouting shite about "honour" and all the poetic nonsence.
Not sure exactly what your point was with all that, since i never said anything about any of those subjects. Never once suggested either side was better than the other, or even theorized, nor mentioned wisdom in any capacity, nor honor for that matter.
Personally I prefer western weapons. In fact, my preference isnt swords at all; I'm all for the great war hammer, myself. Four weapons in one, Hammer, Spike, Spear, and butt-spike. Plenty of versatility, even for sparring :)
You're comment was referencing the whole master versus sensei BS and I said that 1. It doesn't happen and 2. There's no basis for a conclusion.
You brought my age into question in relation to my "wisdom" which annoys me for 2 reasons. Age has nothing to do with insight and wisdom has nothing to do with combat experience, people who speak of wisdom also tend to believe in honour (I elaborated a little).
If you continue to force me to laboriously expose your arguements then fuck off.
My argument was NOT referencing master versus sensei. In fact, there was no argument at all. I simply said that your age hardly made for a confident boast. At your age, you may well believe that it has nothing to do with wisdom and insight, but while it is true that there are some particularly wise youths, and some particularly short-sighted elders, such cases are rare, and you do not seem to be one of them.
If you'll re-read my comment, you'll see nothing advancing the notion of a master versus sensei concept. In fact, I sided with you in concluding that such a claim was no doubt false.
I did, however, suppose that there may in fact be cases in sparring and demonstration which have pitted chinese and japanese swordplay against one another, which seems likely given the popularity of competitive swordplay and mixed martial arts functions.
Beyond that, I'm sorry to have to tell you, you read into something which simply was not there.
That's not uncommon for someone your age, though ;) I know it's annoying, and right now it seems entirely wrong and unfair, a ridiculous suggestion. It did when i was that age too.
Wisdom comes with experience, which, unfortunately, tends to come with age, and as experienced as you are now, in five or ten years, when you look back at yourself now, You'll see the difference.
Do please note that while wisdom comes with experience, which in turn tends to come with age, there is no guarantee that age will bring any wisdom at all. The world has no shortage of people with plenty of the former and little of the latter.
The main point is that it's even more rare to find someone with the latter, without the benefit of the former.
again dude not important, just my comment, not expecting a response. but you do speak some truth, the art is originally from China so there must be some basic similarities.
Actually the Chinese did bring a sword from the mainland to japan. However, it was inferior to the katana. The brought the Jokoto which was a "heavy & straight" sword. The japanese then elaborated on the construction of the sword and created the Tachi (longer than a katana and more curved). It was the Tachi that was developed into the Katana. The Chinese had nothing to do with the design. It is completely Japanese.
How long does it take to make a sword? i expect it depends on what type of sword you want to make? i dont know if you can make a living out of this, can you? because i really want to be a smith for a career.
@Gloveloveshove I wouldnt hold your breath, unless you have some significant capital to invest in a power hammer, or some friends. I've got a forge, and do some hammering now and again, but you need to be in some good freaking shape to make anything more labor intensive than a candelabra or a decorative fire poker.
Now if you can make them really well, you might make a few hundred bucks per sword, but only a recognized sword master is likely to make more than 1000 each.
@Etimos Well, Not only sell and make swords, I`ll go for Smith and Welder, and Make some knifes/swords when i`ve got time to spend and make a few extra bucks ^^ I hear they get paychecks that`s worth gossip about O.o
Tamahagane, Kanji is 玉鋼（たまはがね) - I don't see any word that means "ball" in that kanji, a direct translation would be Cartridge steel. In Chinese, 玉 means Jade, but I suppose the Japanese use Kanji differently.
玉 (たま, tama) in Japanese is usually associated with "ball". And, 鋼 (はがね, hagane) is translated "steel blue". The Chines meaning, and Japanese meaning can be very different. I believe 珠 (たま) is proper kanji for "a jewel".
So to the best of my (bastardized) understanding, the meaning is; "blue steel ball"?
@soloshoroycom tama= ball or jewel hagane= steel. so in essence jade steel isn't too far off from jewel steel. its really the interpretation or what meaning you have behind it that matters. :)
i bet once upon a time some japan smiths came up to the idea to cover the blade in clay before quenching it, but then after quenching the were like:" WTF this crap has bent!" But then after examining they accepted it and also saw that the curvy edge is just one good thing
It's kind of odd to see a chinese smith making a katana with all the anti-japanese feelings of most chinese, so it's pretty nice thing to see a guy like him looking past such hatred.
I dont think thats true. Though the sword smithing came from china the katana didnt. The Japanese used double straight edge swords and many were imported from china and from those swords the japanese developed their katana with the influence of their religion
In Western Han Dynasty, sword making had a great leap due to the invention of Mongolian. With the inspiration of Mongolian saber and the superior metalwork, Chinese forged the Huan Shou Dao, It looks like straight Katana in bigger version. Most of their lengths are 1.2 meter. However, the metal technology was not mature in Han. in Tang Dynasty, composite metal is introduced. it didn't take long to spread the forging technique to Korea and Japan.
After the end of Tang Dynasty, the forging technique was lost in time. However, Japan continues the forging technique for another 800 years. until 13 century, the forging technique return to china.
of course, there are plenty of way to altert the history. that is reason why we need artifact. so far, chinese archiologist cannot find any tang saber. however, there is one in japanese imperial museum.
I think you're right up until a point, the later refined version of the katana was developed by a Japanese father and son during the Oda Nobunaga period in Japan. Before then, they would always see soldiers returning from battle with broken swords or no swords at all. So they went into hiding for several months until they came out and presented their newly refined katana to the lord of their lands. Along those lines anyway, you can check it out on wikipedia.
Hahaha you got me there buddy, I can't, for the life of me, find that damned story about it all. Could have been a load of tripe, saying that, thanks for making me realise I need evidence to back my tongue. I couldn't tell you the difference between the tang saber and Katana, I'm no sword expert, I'm just into them lol. The mass production of Katana, well at some stage they clearly had to mass produce it, they used them even during the world wars in recent history.
don't take too hard. actually, i should thank you for provide me 1 more lead.
about ww2, many katana was produced for JP soldiers. it was a symbol of honor. so, regular folks believed they are fighting for a holy war. so, regular folks believed they are samurai. however, most of katana became American GI's souvenir when the war is over. more than 90% are fakes. amount those fakes, there are few % are national treasures (more than $25,000).
The katana used in WW2 were a replacement of European sabres used by officers after the Meiji restoration. A proud moment for the Japanese, as it restored their national symbol once again. The katana of that period were called Shin-gunto, and were not handcrafted, but mass-produced by machines.
As for the difference between Tang saber and katana. I don't know what a tang saber is, but katana are so notorious because of their extremely hard and thus sharp cutting edge, yet they remain flexible enough due to a softer type of steel around the core and back; all thanks due to the hardening and kitae-folding which makes up for the lack of quality that tamahagane has.
Tang saber is copy of Han saber. Han army used to use double blade swords, but they felt that double-B swords are too light, therefore they developed single-B swords for cavalry, and it later on became a weapon for infantry too. And Tang copied Han. Unlike katana, Tang saber is straight, and the end of the saber is double-B although the rest of the body is single-B.
In the 8th century( not too sure here) a Tang saber was presented to the emperor of Japan, and he quite liked it, and it was preserved in a temple( dont know the name) till now. That's why some historians hypothesized that Katana was a copy of the tang saber ( just a theory), because ancient japanese swords were straight too. well that's what i've heard.
And I doubt that's really true, I've never heard of it anyway. Since that's close to the Edo period, Japanese swords gradually evolved along more esthetical and artistic lines rather than functionality, as there were no real wars to be fought anymore. Before that, adaptations were only made to the length of the blade (65 cm for a katana now) rather than its durability, which was just fine.
Its in ancient chinese historical text which dated the passing of the Tang Blade or we know it now as the Katana, it was a gift from the Tang Dynasty to the Emperor of Japan, and since then, Japan has adopted its design and named it Katana
it was typically travlers who were just passing threw that forged most of the very first katanas for the japanese 99% of the travlers were fom china the japanese sword smiths just figured out a better way to do it
@TeaBagJizzer A katana didn't originate soly in Japan. Many Katanas are just names given to a single sword which an arch. This one particular I understand what you mean.
Some die-hard Katana fans would say only steel smelted in Japan using clay furnace and following the traditional method (including worshiping the gods and pray for good fortune) should be called "Tamahagane", these days the term "Tamahagane" usually refers to steel smelted using the traditional process, i.e. starting with iron powder, added to the furnace a little at a time, with lots of charcoal, and over a period of days, turn into a big chunk of steel.
He is a well known and famous sword smith, and crafted some of the most famous Katana, you could google or wiki his history.
As for Tamahagane, traditionally, the smiths only smelt Tamahagane once a year, and the procress smelts some of the best quality steel with high carbon content, thus make some really good Katana.
Even today Japan do not export Tamahagane since there's a very limited quantity of such steel, so foreign sword smiths in China / US have to smelt their own Tamahagane.
Let's face it. Poor quality swords are made all over the world.
There are very few quality swordsmiths left in Japan or China. Frankly, I don't have $25,000 to spend on a quality traditional sword made in Japan by a traditional house.
$5,000 - Made in China seems decent enough for me.
I'm not going into battle with it - are you?
It's interesting how the smith double folded that section of the steel.
The sword smith featured in this video are selling his swords for about US$2000-3000 a piece, you can visit his forum on zbsword . com and see for yourself the quality of the blades he forged.
The smith folded the steel twice to reduce the number of times of reheating the steel while still manage to achieve the required number of layers in the final damascus steel produced. Normally it requires 12-13 folds to produce the damascus steel used for quality blades these days.
Folding the steel too many times and you'll lose too much carbon content, while not enough folds and you'll produce a damascus steel with not even distribution of carbon and the result quality of the blade will be lowered, not to mention a less attractive hamon as well as the body of the blade.
you can get Tamahagane Metal swords which it has to be Tamahagane to be a real katna for about $2500 starting price goes up deepening on what you want.
If you do not believe me you can follow that link, or if you think Wikipedia is reliable, search "Chinese Swords" on there, they have a comprehensive article about it.
Yes I've read those sites and it was known that during the late Han and Tong dynasty cold steel forging technique reached its peak and lots of quality blades were imported to Japan where Japanese smiths learned the forging technique. What the Japanese sword smiths managed to do, however, were to be able to categorize every step of the forging technique, from the very basics all the way down to forging Damascus steel, and pass on from generation to generation over thousands of years.
Some of the said forging techniques, especially technique in forging damascus steel, was said to be lost since late Tong Dynasty: 到了唐末「安史之乱」，社会大乱，十室九空，百炼钢的技术就逐渐失传了。
It was the Japanese respect to their culture that managed not only to retain the traditional cold steel forging technique, but also perfected it and made it a work of arts.
So in summary, although every step of the cold steel forging technique was influenced / learned from China, it was the Japanese sword smiths who managed to pass on every minor details (some details were in fact perfected by them) in the forging technique from generation to generation.
That's also why it's the Japanese sword smiths' swordsmanship that's renown in the world nowadays but not the Chinese.
And in this video, Master Chen (the sword smith who demonstrated the forging technique) also learned the forging technique by studying Japanese books and visited Japanese sword smiths.
Cool, good thing we reached an agreement :) Yea, due to the turbulence of China's raging dynasties, and the cultural revolution(Thank god it failed), a lot of sword techniques almost vanished..thankfully though, some master managed to retain them. The forges in Longquan city are still renowned as one of the best forges in the world, even Japanese masters and martial artists requestJapanese swords to be made by Zhou Zheng Wu, the head smith of one of the forges there. (Japan forbids the making
sorry, continued..Japan forbids the making of swords outside of special events) Mr.Zhou retained the traditional arts that has thrived in that area for over 2500 years. So when it all comes down to it, its not the country that makes best swords, but more of the better individual sword smiths. Would you agree with me that a sword made by a Chn. master who knows the traditional way and a sword made by a Japn. Master today would have the same quality?
Yeah I own an iaito katana made in Longquan City and imported by Chenessinc, so I know the quality of craftsmanship there isn't that bad, all they need is better quality control and promotion.
I cannot say who makes a better sword these days without turning it into a flame here, if you scroll down and read the comments here, you'll know why.
This is EXACTLY why I posted the video here, to educate people that Katana made in China these days aren't all cheap replicas - there are quality blades
... among them, only if you know where to look for them.
Master Chen in this video is one of the few sword smiths in China these days who's forging katana and Chinese swords using the traditional method, from Tamahagane (玉網) smelted from iron dust and charcoal, but aided by modern power tools.
If you go to his web site, zbsword com and register an account on his forum, you can see his products.
(continued) most common is Sanmei(Three layer or inserted edge) and Baogang( wrapped steel). The Shinogi-Zukuri cross-section commonly found on Japanese blades are also found on very early Tang Dynasty Swords, Japanese smiths learned metalurgy from Chinese smiths living there. Sword quality Declined during the Ming dynasty,due to the mass production of Northern Mongol sabers and influence( The Yuan(Mongol) dynasty ruled China prior to Ming.
Huh, don't know why my comment was erased. But what you said is inaccurate. China was one of the few places in the world where the differential heat treatment developed, this was implemented during the Warring States Era, where Bronze swords' edge would shatter easily. This spread to Japan during the Tang Dynasty. China eventually also developed thorough heat treatment. The steel jacket technique developed during the Late Han Dynasty, there are several ways of making it, most common is -->
Due to that fact, there were lots of casualties in the Chinese army, and Chinese generals actually took the weapons from slained Japanese Samurai and send them to their swordsmith to be studied and try to improve the forging technique.
So, to summarize, over the thousands of years of history, sword making technique has been shared between the two nation numerous times, it was the Chinese who discovered the way to forge steel weapons, but the Japanese perfected it.
You are telling a fairy tale! How many Damascus Sword captured by the European? Can they study the techniques and reproduce one? The Japanese pirates raid the southeast China coast with little casualty is not because they have superior weapons, but the Chinese are unwilling to fight, because China back the was the wealthiest country in the world. Why would you want to die? Chinese always have superior blacksmith skills and sword forging techniques. Just the culture is somewhat depressing...
This argument can go on forever, but according to historical articles, the deserted samurai have superior weapons than the Chinese army back then and it was the fact. The Chinese general who was famous in leading the army against the deserted samurai was named 戚繼光 - if you can read Chinese you can probably read the following article which document his entire life, including the techniques he used to defeat the raiding samurais.
h t t p : / / baike . baidu . com / view / 10438 . htm
Before General Chek took over the army, they were getting slaughtered by the raiding samurai, due to the fact that they were using superior weapons and techniques. General Chek studied the raiding samurai's strategy, took the weapons from slain samurai to their blacksmith to study and improve their own forging techniques (who were, like you said, skilled blacksmiths), and invented strategy that proven to be effective against the raiding samurais.
There are never superior techniques, only better trained soldiers. The Chinese soldiers fighting the Wokou (I don't think many of them were samurai) initially were weak conscripts or peasants, of course the wokou diced them. But the more well trained soldiers did much better.
The Ming dynasty fought Hideyoshi's samurai during the Imjin War in 1592, and with the Koreans(who were almost overrun), successfully repelled the Japanese from Korea.
I was trying to point out, the raiding samurai had superior weapons than the Ming soldiers back then, and General Chek realized that, therefore he had taken katana's from slain samurais and refine the forging techniques to forge weapons for his soldiers. The weapons are called 倭刀 or 苗刀, check out the wiki articles for more info (remove spaces):
h t t p : / / zh . wikipedia . org / wiki / %E5%80%AD%E5%88%80
h t t p : / / zh . wikipedia . org / wiki / %E8%8B%97%E5%88%80
yes, the forging of swords of China declined in quality overall during that time, however, I wouldn't say Japan "perfected" the same techniques the Tang smiths made, it was more or less a "reintroduction" of some techniques. Kinda like a full circle, China influences Japan, then the other way around a few hundred years later. Do you know if high-ranking officials had higher quality swords? Besides, the heyday of Chinese warfare was the Han Dynasty, the wokou encounters were more like skirmishes.
and you probably know that the Chinese polearms are the main weapons of foot soldiers. Also, was there a lapse in fighting with the Ming soldiers? The samurai during the mongol invasions of Japan were also very weak because of a ~50 year relative peace period prior to the invasions.
General Chek also made a remark about their cold steel weapons when his soldiers fought with the raiding samurai:
「長兵不捷，短兵不接，身多兩斷！」
Basically he said, long weapons (spears / polearms) aren't agile enough, but short weapons (swords) can't take any beating, and usually break into two halves!
This pretty much points out that the Japanese back then did have better cold steel forging techniques over the Chinese.
Some of the strategies include forming small fighting squads with 11-men as a unit, equipped with shields, spears and short blades, it was said that in the several major battles against the raiding samurai, they achieved a casualty ratio of 22:1000 (Chinese Army vs. raiding Samurai).
Anyway this is way off-topic, I'm merely trying to point out the fact that the Japanese have perfected the cold steel forging technique that was invented by the Chinese, and history had proven that too.
Last but not least, after the Japanese learned the steel forging technique from the Chinese during the Tong Dynasty, they've refined the technique and over the War period in Japan, the demand for cold steel weapon was huge, and soon their technique actually was more advanced than the Chinese, during the Ming Dynasty (the War period in Japan), there're deserted samurai that raided the coast line of China, and the weapon they used were far superior than the Chinese army back then.
In fact, there're TONS of antique Chinese swords / knives that're crafted the same way Japanese katanas were crafted, and they were crafted way before Japanese know how to make steel weapons.
However, one must give credit to the Japanese on their culture and way of preserving antique cold steel weapons, since most of the antique Chinese cold steel weapons are either rusted to the core, or melted during the Culture Revolution in the '70s.
During the 4 thousands years of history, there are endless Chinese swords / knives crafted, and if you have never heard of folded Chinese sword, it's your lack of knowledge, I'm going to put a few links here, so you can have a chance to see swords that are crafted hundreds of years ago in China and are re-polished by craftsman to demonstrate it's craftmanship, and you'll know they're folder just by looking at the blade itself.
one word - demand. There're more demand on Japanese katana's than Chinese traditional swords, since the former is much more popular.
The original steel sword forging techniques was founded in China, and Japanese swordsmiths start learning how to forge steel swords during the Tong Dynasty (some 150-180 yrs BC), and the Japanese have refined the technique over time.
The Tang(Tong or Tung) was from 7th to 10th centuries AD.
The techniques in both cultures are quite similiar, the folded steel process and such. The katana's and its predecessors' blade cross-sections and geometry can be found on swords from the Tang dynasty.
that blade is garbage the chinese are always coping the japanese swords and culture ive never heard of a folded Taiji sword the chinese are trying so much to be loved and accepted like the japanese
Katana can be made with many materials, from stainless steel (really cheap one) to industrial grade 9260 steel to even titanium (experimental). There were even a Katana made with carbon fiber with steel edge.
However for most people, "Traditional" Katana should be made with Tamahagane, some hard core even thinks only made in Japan by Japanese swordsmiths.
So it's really up to you to decide what makes a good "Katana".
the red thing is the hot metal which makes the blade of the sword. they have to smith it just rite to form a desirable shape. u'd burn your fingers off if u tried to touch it.
master smiths like barrett and Dicristofano in the USA smelt their own 'tamahagane' - its not done in a japanese based tatara but its composition is more or less the same and both ricks and antonys work is highly prized and sought after - I also agree some chinese forges are putting out very good blades now - not those crappy fleabay 'can chop iron' rubbish - but paul chen , fred chen and chris zou are the leaders in high end quality katana - a high end zou blade is immaculate.
Wow would love to learn how to do this and why is the hamon not uniform and straight
angryasian2 3 weeks ago
chinese katanas wtf lol....
saiyansanger 2 months ago
Nice video.
chibraxial 4 months ago
is there anywhere i can learn japanese sword smithing in america
cail8891 9 months ago
is there anywhere i can learn japanese sword smithing in america
cail8891 9 months ago
what is the best steel katana? 1060? 1095? damasco? 12x 11x? thanks
losteden 9 months ago
Sharpening the blade with his fingers and sand, many cuts in the learning process of that x(
ACDCFan15Swe 9 months ago
Everything = Made In China
failfiction 1 year ago
i cant remember as to how long the process of making one of these im guessing it depends on the skill of the smith
intupspaturken 1 year ago
This is Master Rich Chen a few years ago. His forge is Zubeng Forge
hamburger33 1 year ago
Traditional (Tamahagane) Katana made by Chinese sword smith ?
FAKE
druisteen 1 year ago
katana is japanese sword
koka270 1 year ago
@koka270 - with origins from ancient China. Check out Tang Dao, Zhan Ma Dao and etc... =P
armyboy24 1 year ago
@armyboy24 it´s true that katana was evolved from chinese swords, but katana still isn´t chinese
koka270 1 year ago
@koka270 - Totally agree. And its origins are from China... =P
armyboy24 1 year ago
@armyboy24 Katana is original. =P
koka270 1 year ago
@koka270 - yeah....it is original....originated from China that is... =)
armyboy24 1 year ago
@armyboy24 Jaaj, it´s funny, but Katana is original from Japan, if you say that katana is chinese sword, so Japan is China, Japanese culture is China... that´s not right, Katana was EVOLVED from chinese sword like all Japanese culture is from China
koka270 1 year ago
@koka270 - I never said katana IS Chinese sword. I said it originated from China. And after that, you can even expand your vocab and beautify it with words like evolved, changed, modified, altered developed or whatever. Katana has its origins from China~ =)
armyboy24 1 year ago
@armyboy24 Agree!!! There are still Tang Daos in Museums in Japan. They called Tang Daos(唐刀) "Karatachi" (唐大刀). And I also saw a Chinese Han styled Dao in another museum. They are called Han Dao(漢刀) or Huan Shou Dao(環首刀)in Chinese but the Japs call it "Kantoutachi"(環頭大刀).
Interesting isn't it?
RaiAntou 1 year ago
@RaiAntou - That's great news. But I feel pain when i hear ancient Chinese cultural relics or stuff are (permanently) exhibited in other countries. The worst kind is the British museum, where they looted millions of cultural treasures from China & other parts of the world and exhibited it as if it belongs to them. Sadly most of them are kept rotting in their underground basement without care or supervision. Sigh.Go away...let me feel the sadness and despair in the darkness of my silent scream.
armyboy24 1 year ago
@armyboy24 The Chinese exhibits in British aren't art, but evidence of what they done in China.
RaiAntou 1 year ago
@armyboy24 The chokuto originated in China, the tachi didn't, the katana didn't.
Look, your reasoning would allow me to make the statement "everyone is african" because that's where humans originally resided.
The katana is of Japanese origin as it ORIGINated in Japan.
ihaterobbie123 1 year ago
@ihaterobbie123 - That's as good as saying Ramen originated in Japan. But truth be told, it has its origins from China, and further developed in Japan to become todays Japanese Ramen. Same thing for katana. It has its origins from China, further developed in Japan to become todays Japanese Katana. Nope, your applying of the "everyone is African" argument would be flawed here because we are talking about cultural assets and heritages. It is different from genetic endowment or heredity.
armyboy24 1 year ago
@armyboy24 You're simply using the term in a different manner. The influences that changed the chokuto into the modern katana were purely Japanese.
And yes, with the migration of humans throughout the world you could argue that all cultures have one origin, making this whole conversation pointless, in this sense your argument is self-defeating, a mere observation of cultural differentiation operating in much the same manner as stem cells (different function, same coded information).
ihaterobbie123 1 year ago
@ihaterobbie123 - No. you cannot argue that "all" cultures comes from one origin. This is because you would have to first establish the original source that you claimed to have led to the development of all cultures, such as cultural heritage, traditions, assets & so on. Your debate of cultural differentiation operating in much the same manner as stem cells is a one-sided perspective. And would end up as a debate on whether cultural heritages, traditions or assets are work of nature or nurture.
armyboy24 1 year ago
@ihaterobbie123
i visited Sadakazu II in Japan he gave me a book with the history of swords. I looked in the book and the oldest swords were straight and he told me it was because it was made after Chinese swords of the time. Takahashi Sadatsugu became the first Living National treasure in 1955 and his son, Sadaichi (later Sadakazu II) also became a Living National Treasure in 1971. Takahashi Sadatsugu made swords for the Emperor of Japan.
the Chinese made a sword like a katana.
hamburger33 1 year ago
@hamburger33 Oh my god how stupid can you be?
1. You don't need to visit a swordsmith to know that.
2. I SAID THAT.
3. Read my comments (plural).
ihaterobbie123 1 year ago
@ihaterobbie123 i visited Sadakazu II in Japan he gave me a book with the history of swords. I looked in the book and the oldest swords were straight and he told me it was because it was made after Chinese swords of the time. Takahashi Sadatsugu became the first Living National treasure in 1955 and his son, Sadaichi (later Sadakazu II) also became a Living National Treasure in 1971. Takahashi Sadatsugu made swords for the Emperor of Japan.
hamburger33 1 year ago
@armyboy24
this is true
hamburger33 1 year ago
@koka270
the katana name originated in japan. the sword shape was made in china first.
hamburger33 1 year ago
i think the celts were using this method in about 700bc, thats a whole 2 millenia before these were being made.
mrmong 1 year ago
I would love to make one of these, looks like fun, and you get a feeling of satisfation making it.
kikook222 1 year ago
what is the red lines that are put on the clay?
trialsrider001 1 year ago
Hello friend:
Here in Brazil, manufacture gates and iron railings.
The profession is called a locksmith.
I would like you if possible guide me:
What material is that in 0:45?
It's cold in the water at 1:15?
Your work is magnificent and worthy of recognition.
Congratulations and thank you.
Brotherly hug
(Google translator)
54Coroa 1 year ago
Tamahagane is produced in a single tatara (smelter) in Shimane Prefecture Japan - which is controlled by the NBTHK (Society for the Preservation of the Japanese Sword). They will NOT sell it to anyone except registered JAPANESE tosho (swordsmiths) and so lengthy discussions about a Chinese blade being made of tamahagane are ultimately rather pointless.
MockTheFoolsAgain 1 year ago
@MockTheFoolsAgain that's why hanwei and dynasty forge both make tamahagane steel katanas in china right?
FatGuyWithAKatana 1 year ago
Yenno what else is neat though? If you have a grasp of human taxonomy and trait recognition, you can actually tell the difference between a Japanese person and a Chinese person just by looking at them, often enough. The Japanese are genetically distinct enough from the mainland groups that they are visually distinct, notably in their facial bone structure, which features a somewhat more square jaw and angular features than the traditionally 'rounder' face of mainland Chinese. Neat stuff.
Etimos 1 year ago
Very good video :) Notice how the blade is forged straight, but emerges from the water with the classic ninhoto katana curve. This is because the back metal of the sword cools faster than the front. This also has the effect of bending the already super-hardened blade metal backwards gently, causing thousands of microscopic stress fractures along the very thinnest edge of the sharpened blade, which have the cumulative effect of producing a micro-serrated edge, like a razor blade.
Etimos 1 year ago
yah, i've always dreamed of owning a Chinese made Japanese sword........
jacktheripped 1 year ago
Oh c'mon nivenheim, just cos the best part of you ran down the crack of your mammys ass when you was shat out - aint little ol me's fault now is it ?
now run along home you little fuck ass - your mammys got a gentleman caller coming round - you can call him daddy .
chisacat 1 year ago
@nivenheim
Ok, you mean to tell me that Alusnovalotus has seen japanese masters in "compitition" (how can you be more vague?) and has also, with his combat expertise, judged who would win in a fight accurately. Not only is it stupid to assume the victor of a fight before two people meet it's also utterly rediculous to listen to somebody like him.
I've seen you around you know, you're not pro-china, you're anti-japan. I only see you argue against japan on ANYTHING (eg. vikings).
stfu.
ihaterobbie123 1 year ago
"fear not the weapon but the hand that wields it"
I've seen great swordsmen from japan, but they never seem to beat chinese masters..... I've seen them in competition but....
Alusnovalotus 1 year ago
@Alusnovalotus
W/E mate =] I'm sure you have seen loads of great swordsmen from both Japan and China. It's pretty commonplace for people on the internet to have seen such things, but I've never even met someone who's done a martial arts pilgrimage.
Stop BSing, if you were a dedicated swordsman you'd know that the term "master" is a westernisation of senior teacher. There are no masters, mastery implies infallability, a concept rejected by both the Chinese and Japanese. Stop spouting lies.
ihaterobbie123 1 year ago
@ihaterobbie123 - that alusnovalotus guy is so full of shit , another legend in his own lunchtime - " fear not the weapon , bla , bla bla - he's more full of shit than that
mountainous ninja guy - and he definitely sucks ass . LOL
chisacat 1 year ago
wow, this coming form a loser who watches this stuff and takes it seriously??? please! watching a hundred king fu movies doesn't make you an expert, asshole! you're probably an exact copy of comic collector guy from the simpsons, some fat lifeless mass who has nothing better to do or better way to vent his bitterness than on youtube!!! Stick the sword up your ass and do us all a favor!
Alusnovalotus 1 year ago
@Alusnovalotus
Hmm...yeah sure we just watch the movies. Your blind assumption is completely correct...urgh.
Instead of singing the song I've heard all too often I'll change the tone a little, I've been doing martial arts since age 8. I started with kendo and have done various others and I'm now 17 (kendo still going strong).
Let me tell you something, neither I nor you will ever see a chinese "master" fight a senior japanese sensei...it doesn't happen.
I say again, stop bullshitting.
ihaterobbie123 1 year ago
@ihaterobbie123
I know this is an old topic, but I had to get involved right here.
'and I'm now 17' doesnt instantly scream wisdom and experience, but that's more of a side point.
As for chinese versus japanese sword fighters, Master versus Sensei may be a crock of shit, but I wouldn't doubt that there have been matches pitting chinese and japanese swordsmanship styles. There are mixed martial arts expos all the time, all over the world, why should sword based arts not have them. after all.
Etimos 1 year ago
And surely with such a match, those competing would have to be of significant skill and practice with their respective arts.
Incidentally, it does happen in a movie, namely Hero of the East, but that's completely beside the point ;)
Etimos 1 year ago
@Etimos
In chinese movies, the chinese win, in japanese movies, the japanese win, that's how it is, there's no foundation whatsoever to say that either is better as neither country conquered the other and MMA isn't a blood-sport.
I've tried european, chinese and japanese martial arts and I can tell you that all combat is essentially the same. Wisdom is irrelevant, experience is everything, anybody who disagrees should try it before spouting shite about "honour" and all the poetic nonsence.
ihaterobbie123 1 year ago
@ihaterobbie123
Not sure exactly what your point was with all that, since i never said anything about any of those subjects. Never once suggested either side was better than the other, or even theorized, nor mentioned wisdom in any capacity, nor honor for that matter.
Personally I prefer western weapons. In fact, my preference isnt swords at all; I'm all for the great war hammer, myself. Four weapons in one, Hammer, Spike, Spear, and butt-spike. Plenty of versatility, even for sparring :)
Etimos 1 year ago
@Etimos
You're comment was referencing the whole master versus sensei BS and I said that 1. It doesn't happen and 2. There's no basis for a conclusion.
You brought my age into question in relation to my "wisdom" which annoys me for 2 reasons. Age has nothing to do with insight and wisdom has nothing to do with combat experience, people who speak of wisdom also tend to believe in honour (I elaborated a little).
If you continue to force me to laboriously expose your arguements then fuck off.
ihaterobbie123 1 year ago
@ihaterobbie123
Wow. Angry little teeny-bopper, aintchya?
My argument was NOT referencing master versus sensei. In fact, there was no argument at all. I simply said that your age hardly made for a confident boast. At your age, you may well believe that it has nothing to do with wisdom and insight, but while it is true that there are some particularly wise youths, and some particularly short-sighted elders, such cases are rare, and you do not seem to be one of them.
Etimos 1 year ago
@ihaterobbie123
If you'll re-read my comment, you'll see nothing advancing the notion of a master versus sensei concept. In fact, I sided with you in concluding that such a claim was no doubt false.
I did, however, suppose that there may in fact be cases in sparring and demonstration which have pitted chinese and japanese swordplay against one another, which seems likely given the popularity of competitive swordplay and mixed martial arts functions.
Etimos 1 year ago
@ihaterobbie123
Beyond that, I'm sorry to have to tell you, you read into something which simply was not there.
That's not uncommon for someone your age, though ;) I know it's annoying, and right now it seems entirely wrong and unfair, a ridiculous suggestion. It did when i was that age too.
Wisdom comes with experience, which, unfortunately, tends to come with age, and as experienced as you are now, in five or ten years, when you look back at yourself now, You'll see the difference.
Etimos 1 year ago
PS:
Do please note that while wisdom comes with experience, which in turn tends to come with age, there is no guarantee that age will bring any wisdom at all. The world has no shortage of people with plenty of the former and little of the latter.
The main point is that it's even more rare to find someone with the latter, without the benefit of the former.
Etimos 1 year ago
@ihaterobbie123 its a well known fact real kung fu is better than karate
karate is better for strgthening the body
juzblazejr 1 year ago
@juzblazejr Bullshit, both martial arts are just as good at strengthening the body and that "fact" isn't known by anyone I know.
It's opinion, this video isn't about karate/kung fu anyway so I don't know why I left a comment about them.
ihaterobbie123 1 year ago
sure I got plenty to do -= I am snaking your Momma every night right up her stiinky ass - so name some names of these 'masters' you have met then ?
BTW - 'king fu ' movies ? what a fucktard -
P.s your Momma is one horny ol crow
chisacat 1 year ago
again dude not important, just my comment, not expecting a response. but you do speak some truth, the art is originally from China so there must be some basic similarities.
Alusnovalotus 1 year ago 8
@Alusnovalotus - yup your a bullshitter alright " fear not the weapon - WTF ? who talks like that - fucking yoda ?
you lying sack o shit frigger you
chisacat 1 year ago
fear not the fuckhead who has watched too much anime
chisacat 1 year ago
Awesome sword
algrennathan 2 years ago
Actually the Chinese did bring a sword from the mainland to japan. However, it was inferior to the katana. The brought the Jokoto which was a "heavy & straight" sword. The japanese then elaborated on the construction of the sword and created the Tachi (longer than a katana and more curved). It was the Tachi that was developed into the Katana. The Chinese had nothing to do with the design. It is completely Japanese.
SNIDERDC 2 years ago
Chinese sword was straight and heavy.
ayn0612 2 years ago
Yeah they are. I have one XD
1ben1245 2 years ago
How long does it take to make a sword? i expect it depends on what type of sword you want to make? i dont know if you can make a living out of this, can you? because i really want to be a smith for a career.
Gloveloveshove 2 years ago
@Gloveloveshove I wouldnt hold your breath, unless you have some significant capital to invest in a power hammer, or some friends. I've got a forge, and do some hammering now and again, but you need to be in some good freaking shape to make anything more labor intensive than a candelabra or a decorative fire poker.
Now if you can make them really well, you might make a few hundred bucks per sword, but only a recognized sword master is likely to make more than 1000 each.
Etimos 1 year ago
@Etimos Well, Not only sell and make swords, I`ll go for Smith and Welder, and Make some knifes/swords when i`ve got time to spend and make a few extra bucks ^^ I hear they get paychecks that`s worth gossip about O.o
Gloveloveshove 1 year ago
the price of this sword is 1000 $ in france
-_-
druisten3 2 years ago
very nice
111Agent111 2 years ago
is the osang really chinese?
Don0chi0cho 2 years ago
it's not chinese for FS
insertbadname 2 years ago
Tamahagane means "Iron Sand". It's really supposed to be Japanese sand that goes througha long process.
ReaperofSouls0 2 years ago 2
Tamahagane means "Jade Steel" actually, it means the steel that has gone through the long process that turn iron sand / powder into steel.
soloshoroycom 2 years ago
Tamahagane means "steel ball"
windfireforge 2 years ago
Tamahagane, Kanji is 玉鋼（たまはがね) - I don't see any word that means "ball" in that kanji, a direct translation would be Cartridge steel. In Chinese, 玉 means Jade, but I suppose the Japanese use Kanji differently.
soloshoroycom 2 years ago 2
Means jade in Japan also.
thetanukikaji 2 years ago
玉 (たま, tama) in Japanese is usually associated with "ball". And, 鋼 (はがね, hagane) is translated "steel blue". The Chines meaning, and Japanese meaning can be very different. I believe 珠 (たま) is proper kanji for "a jewel".
So to the best of my (bastardized) understanding, the meaning is; "blue steel ball"?
windfireforge 2 years ago
@soloshoroycom Oh they sure do. 熱湯 in Mandarin = hot soup. In Japanese, it means hot bath.
op3l 1 year ago
@soloshoroycom in chinese it is called Jewel Steel. ( Yi Gan) its wrote in chinese and japanese the same.
hamburger33 1 year ago
@soloshoroycom tama= ball or jewel hagane= steel. so in essence jade steel isn't too far off from jewel steel. its really the interpretation or what meaning you have behind it that matters. :)
Funnykid33 6 months ago
@soloshoroycom tamahagane means jewel steal.
attackoftherandom 1 year ago
@ReaperofSouls0 Tamahagane is made up of black sand which has 80% of iron inside it.
RaiAntou 1 year ago
@RaiAntou Looks similar to the hardening paste used by welders.
kovona 10 months ago
i bet once upon a time some japan smiths came up to the idea to cover the blade in clay before quenching it, but then after quenching the were like:" WTF this crap has bent!" But then after examining they accepted it and also saw that the curvy edge is just one good thing
boatoflol 2 years ago
It's kind of odd to see a chinese smith making a katana with all the anti-japanese feelings of most chinese, so it's pretty nice thing to see a guy like him looking past such hatred.
TeaBagJizzer 2 years ago 8
actually, katana was from china.
loveryoda 2 years ago
I dont think thats true. Though the sword smithing came from china the katana didnt. The Japanese used double straight edge swords and many were imported from china and from those swords the japanese developed their katana with the influence of their religion
TeaBagJizzer 2 years ago
In Western Han Dynasty, sword making had a great leap due to the invention of Mongolian. With the inspiration of Mongolian saber and the superior metalwork, Chinese forged the Huan Shou Dao, It looks like straight Katana in bigger version. Most of their lengths are 1.2 meter. However, the metal technology was not mature in Han. in Tang Dynasty, composite metal is introduced. it didn't take long to spread the forging technique to Korea and Japan.
loveryoda 2 years ago 7
After the end of Tang Dynasty, the forging technique was lost in time. However, Japan continues the forging technique for another 800 years. until 13 century, the forging technique return to china.
of course, there are plenty of way to altert the history. that is reason why we need artifact. so far, chinese archiologist cannot find any tang saber. however, there is one in japanese imperial museum.
loveryoda 2 years ago 2
i have to agree with you for one thing. it is nice to over look the past and the hatred.
loveryoda 2 years ago 3
I think you're right up until a point, the later refined version of the katana was developed by a Japanese father and son during the Oda Nobunaga period in Japan. Before then, they would always see soldiers returning from battle with broken swords or no swords at all. So they went into hiding for several months until they came out and presented their newly refined katana to the lord of their lands. Along those lines anyway, you can check it out on wikipedia.
Nagashi26 2 years ago
thank you for your information. however, i have few questions in mind.
1. What is different between Tang saber and Japanese katana (beside the tip of swords and straight line)?
2. is there a way to mass produce katana? base on what i learn it requires 5 people, 3 months, and a lot of effort to produce 1 katana.
3. what did they improve during the oda period? what is their last name?
loveryoda 2 years ago
Hahaha you got me there buddy, I can't, for the life of me, find that damned story about it all. Could have been a load of tripe, saying that, thanks for making me realise I need evidence to back my tongue. I couldn't tell you the difference between the tang saber and Katana, I'm no sword expert, I'm just into them lol. The mass production of Katana, well at some stage they clearly had to mass produce it, they used them even during the world wars in recent history.
Nagashi26 2 years ago
don't take too hard. actually, i should thank you for provide me 1 more lead.
about ww2, many katana was produced for JP soldiers. it was a symbol of honor. so, regular folks believed they are fighting for a holy war. so, regular folks believed they are samurai. however, most of katana became American GI's souvenir when the war is over. more than 90% are fakes. amount those fakes, there are few % are national treasures (more than $25,000).
loveryoda 2 years ago
The katana used in WW2 were a replacement of European sabres used by officers after the Meiji restoration. A proud moment for the Japanese, as it restored their national symbol once again. The katana of that period were called Shin-gunto, and were not handcrafted, but mass-produced by machines.
Broekerd 2 years ago
As for the difference between Tang saber and katana. I don't know what a tang saber is, but katana are so notorious because of their extremely hard and thus sharp cutting edge, yet they remain flexible enough due to a softer type of steel around the core and back; all thanks due to the hardening and kitae-folding which makes up for the lack of quality that tamahagane has.
Broekerd 2 years ago
Tang saber is copy of Han saber. Han army used to use double blade swords, but they felt that double-B swords are too light, therefore they developed single-B swords for cavalry, and it later on became a weapon for infantry too. And Tang copied Han. Unlike katana, Tang saber is straight, and the end of the saber is double-B although the rest of the body is single-B.
harrison28514 2 years ago
In the 8th century( not too sure here) a Tang saber was presented to the emperor of Japan, and he quite liked it, and it was preserved in a temple( dont know the name) till now. That's why some historians hypothesized that Katana was a copy of the tang saber ( just a theory), because ancient japanese swords were straight too. well that's what i've heard.
harrison28514 2 years ago 2
And I doubt that's really true, I've never heard of it anyway. Since that's close to the Edo period, Japanese swords gradually evolved along more esthetical and artistic lines rather than functionality, as there were no real wars to be fought anymore. Before that, adaptations were only made to the length of the blade (65 cm for a katana now) rather than its durability, which was just fine.
Broekerd 2 years ago
Its in ancient chinese historical text which dated the passing of the Tang Blade or we know it now as the Katana, it was a gift from the Tang Dynasty to the Emperor of Japan, and since then, Japan has adopted its design and named it Katana
SierraHawkProduction 2 years ago
it was typically travlers who were just passing threw that forged most of the very first katanas for the japanese 99% of the travlers were fom china the japanese sword smiths just figured out a better way to do it
R700SNIPER1 2 years ago
@TeaBagJizzer A katana didn't originate soly in Japan. Many Katanas are just names given to a single sword which an arch. This one particular I understand what you mean.
kikook222 1 year ago
@TeaBagJizzer have you seen the video tang sowrd ancestors of the japanese katana
kokulink 1 year ago
made in china or made in japan ?
druisteen2 2 years ago
Some die-hard Katana fans would say only steel smelted in Japan using clay furnace and following the traditional method (including worshiping the gods and pray for good fortune) should be called "Tamahagane", these days the term "Tamahagane" usually refers to steel smelted using the traditional process, i.e. starting with iron powder, added to the furnace a little at a time, with lots of charcoal, and over a period of days, turn into a big chunk of steel.
soloshoroycom 2 years ago 4
He is a well known and famous sword smith, and crafted some of the most famous Katana, you could google or wiki his history.
As for Tamahagane, traditionally, the smiths only smelt Tamahagane once a year, and the procress smelts some of the best quality steel with high carbon content, thus make some really good Katana.
Even today Japan do not export Tamahagane since there's a very limited quantity of such steel, so foreign sword smiths in China / US have to smelt their own Tamahagane.
soloshoroycom 2 years ago
He must make some REALLY good swords. I was under the impression Tamahagane was made only avaliabe to the best swordsmiths.
TriSixshot 2 years ago
Let's face it. Poor quality swords are made all over the world.
There are very few quality swordsmiths left in Japan or China. Frankly, I don't have $25,000 to spend on a quality traditional sword made in Japan by a traditional house.
$5,000 - Made in China seems decent enough for me.
I'm not going into battle with it - are you?
It's interesting how the smith double folded that section of the steel.
ALAPINO 2 years ago
The sword smith featured in this video are selling his swords for about US$2000-3000 a piece, you can visit his forum on zbsword . com and see for yourself the quality of the blades he forged.
The smith folded the steel twice to reduce the number of times of reheating the steel while still manage to achieve the required number of layers in the final damascus steel produced. Normally it requires 12-13 folds to produce the damascus steel used for quality blades these days.
soloshoroycom 2 years ago
Folding the steel too many times and you'll lose too much carbon content, while not enough folds and you'll produce a damascus steel with not even distribution of carbon and the result quality of the blade will be lowered, not to mention a less attractive hamon as well as the body of the blade.
soloshoroycom 2 years ago
you can get Tamahagane Metal swords which it has to be Tamahagane to be a real katna for about $2500 starting price goes up deepening on what you want.
pyrositytube 2 years ago
If you do not believe me you can follow that link, or if you think Wikipedia is reliable, search "Chinese Swords" on there, they have a comprehensive article about it.
xxHotSpicyxx 2 years ago
Yes I've read those sites and it was known that during the late Han and Tong dynasty cold steel forging technique reached its peak and lots of quality blades were imported to Japan where Japanese smiths learned the forging technique. What the Japanese sword smiths managed to do, however, were to be able to categorize every step of the forging technique, from the very basics all the way down to forging Damascus steel, and pass on from generation to generation over thousands of years.
soloshoroycom 2 years ago
Some of the said forging techniques, especially technique in forging damascus steel, was said to be lost since late Tong Dynasty: 到了唐末「安史之乱」，社会大乱，十室九空，百炼钢的技术就逐渐失传了。
It was the Japanese respect to their culture that managed not only to retain the traditional cold steel forging technique, but also perfected it and made it a work of arts.
soloshoroycom 2 years ago
So in summary, although every step of the cold steel forging technique was influenced / learned from China, it was the Japanese sword smiths who managed to pass on every minor details (some details were in fact perfected by them) in the forging technique from generation to generation.
That's also why it's the Japanese sword smiths' swordsmanship that's renown in the world nowadays but not the Chinese.
soloshoroycom 2 years ago
And in this video, Master Chen (the sword smith who demonstrated the forging technique) also learned the forging technique by studying Japanese books and visited Japanese sword smiths.
soloshoroycom 2 years ago
Cool, good thing we reached an agreement :) Yea, due to the turbulence of China's raging dynasties, and the cultural revolution(Thank god it failed), a lot of sword techniques almost vanished..thankfully though, some master managed to retain them. The forges in Longquan city are still renowned as one of the best forges in the world, even Japanese masters and martial artists requestJapanese swords to be made by Zhou Zheng Wu, the head smith of one of the forges there. (Japan forbids the making
xxHotSpicyxx 2 years ago
sorry, continued..Japan forbids the making of swords outside of special events) Mr.Zhou retained the traditional arts that has thrived in that area for over 2500 years. So when it all comes down to it, its not the country that makes best swords, but more of the better individual sword smiths. Would you agree with me that a sword made by a Chn. master who knows the traditional way and a sword made by a Japn. Master today would have the same quality?
xxHotSpicyxx 2 years ago
sorry, I almost forgot to post this link,,its about a prize winning Chinese sword made the traditional way by Mr.Zhou.
swordexpress com/Items/Item aspx?nocache=1&itemid=375134
xxHotSpicyxx 2 years ago
Yeah I own an iaito katana made in Longquan City and imported by Chenessinc, so I know the quality of craftsmanship there isn't that bad, all they need is better quality control and promotion.
I cannot say who makes a better sword these days without turning it into a flame here, if you scroll down and read the comments here, you'll know why.
This is EXACTLY why I posted the video here, to educate people that Katana made in China these days aren't all cheap replicas - there are quality blades
soloshoroycom 2 years ago
... among them, only if you know where to look for them.
Master Chen in this video is one of the few sword smiths in China these days who's forging katana and Chinese swords using the traditional method, from Tamahagane (玉網) smelted from iron dust and charcoal, but aided by modern power tools.
If you go to his web site, zbsword com and register an account on his forum, you can see his products.
soloshoroycom 2 years ago
What about Masamune , the legendary sword smith.
pyrositytube 2 years ago
What about him that you want to know?
soloshoroycom 2 years ago
(continued) most common is Sanmei(Three layer or inserted edge) and Baogang( wrapped steel). The Shinogi-Zukuri cross-section commonly found on Japanese blades are also found on very early Tang Dynasty Swords, Japanese smiths learned metalurgy from Chinese smiths living there. Sword quality Declined during the Ming dynasty,due to the mass production of Northern Mongol sabers and influence( The Yuan(Mongol) dynasty ruled China prior to Ming.
thomaschen.freewebspace com/custom html
xxHotSpicyxx 2 years ago
Huh, don't know why my comment was erased. But what you said is inaccurate. China was one of the few places in the world where the differential heat treatment developed, this was implemented during the Warring States Era, where Bronze swords' edge would shatter easily. This spread to Japan during the Tang Dynasty. China eventually also developed thorough heat treatment. The steel jacket technique developed during the Late Han Dynasty, there are several ways of making it, most common is -->
xxHotSpicyxx 2 years ago
Comment removed
xxHotSpicyxx 2 years ago
Due to that fact, there were lots of casualties in the Chinese army, and Chinese generals actually took the weapons from slained Japanese Samurai and send them to their swordsmith to be studied and try to improve the forging technique.
So, to summarize, over the thousands of years of history, sword making technique has been shared between the two nation numerous times, it was the Chinese who discovered the way to forge steel weapons, but the Japanese perfected it.
soloshoroycom 2 years ago
You are telling a fairy tale! How many Damascus Sword captured by the European? Can they study the techniques and reproduce one? The Japanese pirates raid the southeast China coast with little casualty is not because they have superior weapons, but the Chinese are unwilling to fight, because China back the was the wealthiest country in the world. Why would you want to die? Chinese always have superior blacksmith skills and sword forging techniques. Just the culture is somewhat depressing...
howdiedoggie 2 years ago
This argument can go on forever, but according to historical articles, the deserted samurai have superior weapons than the Chinese army back then and it was the fact. The Chinese general who was famous in leading the army against the deserted samurai was named 戚繼光 - if you can read Chinese you can probably read the following article which document his entire life, including the techniques he used to defeat the raiding samurais.
h t t p : / / baike . baidu . com / view / 10438 . htm
soloshoroycom 2 years ago
Before General Chek took over the army, they were getting slaughtered by the raiding samurai, due to the fact that they were using superior weapons and techniques. General Chek studied the raiding samurai's strategy, took the weapons from slain samurai to their blacksmith to study and improve their own forging techniques (who were, like you said, skilled blacksmiths), and invented strategy that proven to be effective against the raiding samurais.
soloshoroycom 2 years ago
There are never superior techniques, only better trained soldiers. The Chinese soldiers fighting the Wokou (I don't think many of them were samurai) initially were weak conscripts or peasants, of course the wokou diced them. But the more well trained soldiers did much better.
The Ming dynasty fought Hideyoshi's samurai during the Imjin War in 1592, and with the Koreans(who were almost overrun), successfully repelled the Japanese from Korea.
xxHotSpicyxx 2 years ago
I was trying to point out, the raiding samurai had superior weapons than the Ming soldiers back then, and General Chek realized that, therefore he had taken katana's from slain samurais and refine the forging techniques to forge weapons for his soldiers. The weapons are called 倭刀 or 苗刀, check out the wiki articles for more info (remove spaces):
h t t p : / / zh . wikipedia . org / wiki / %E5%80%AD%E5%88%80
h t t p : / / zh . wikipedia . org / wiki / %E8%8B%97%E5%88%80
soloshoroycom 2 years ago
yes, the forging of swords of China declined in quality overall during that time, however, I wouldn't say Japan "perfected" the same techniques the Tang smiths made, it was more or less a "reintroduction" of some techniques. Kinda like a full circle, China influences Japan, then the other way around a few hundred years later. Do you know if high-ranking officials had higher quality swords? Besides, the heyday of Chinese warfare was the Han Dynasty, the wokou encounters were more like skirmishes.
xxHotSpicyxx 2 years ago
and you probably know that the Chinese polearms are the main weapons of foot soldiers. Also, was there a lapse in fighting with the Ming soldiers? The samurai during the mongol invasions of Japan were also very weak because of a ~50 year relative peace period prior to the invasions.
xxHotSpicyxx 2 years ago
General Chek also made a remark about their cold steel weapons when his soldiers fought with the raiding samurai:
「長兵不捷，短兵不接，身多兩斷！」
Basically he said, long weapons (spears / polearms) aren't agile enough, but short weapons (swords) can't take any beating, and usually break into two halves!
This pretty much points out that the Japanese back then did have better cold steel forging techniques over the Chinese.
soloshoroycom 2 years ago
Some of the strategies include forming small fighting squads with 11-men as a unit, equipped with shields, spears and short blades, it was said that in the several major battles against the raiding samurai, they achieved a casualty ratio of 22:1000 (Chinese Army vs. raiding Samurai).
Anyway this is way off-topic, I'm merely trying to point out the fact that the Japanese have perfected the cold steel forging technique that was invented by the Chinese, and history had proven that too.
soloshoroycom 2 years ago
Last but not least, after the Japanese learned the steel forging technique from the Chinese during the Tong Dynasty, they've refined the technique and over the War period in Japan, the demand for cold steel weapon was huge, and soon their technique actually was more advanced than the Chinese, during the Ming Dynasty (the War period in Japan), there're deserted samurai that raided the coast line of China, and the weapon they used were far superior than the Chinese army back then.
soloshoroycom 2 years ago
In fact, there're TONS of antique Chinese swords / knives that're crafted the same way Japanese katanas were crafted, and they were crafted way before Japanese know how to make steel weapons.
However, one must give credit to the Japanese on their culture and way of preserving antique cold steel weapons, since most of the antique Chinese cold steel weapons are either rusted to the core, or melted during the Culture Revolution in the '70s.
soloshoroycom 2 years ago
h t t p : / / bbs . hl365 . net/viewthread . php ? tid = 476786
last link, remove the spaces.
soloshoroycom 2 years ago
h t t p : / / bbs . hl365 . net/viewthread . php ? tid = 421765
same thing, remove the spaces
soloshoroycom 2 years ago
h t t p : / / bbs . hl365 . net/viewthread . php ? tid = 427550
remove the spaces - youtube doesnt allow links to be posted here.
soloshoroycom 2 years ago
During the 4 thousands years of history, there are endless Chinese swords / knives crafted, and if you have never heard of folded Chinese sword, it's your lack of knowledge, I'm going to put a few links here, so you can have a chance to see swords that are crafted hundreds of years ago in China and are re-polished by craftsman to demonstrate it's craftmanship, and you'll know they're folder just by looking at the blade itself.
soloshoroycom 2 years ago
one word - demand. There're more demand on Japanese katana's than Chinese traditional swords, since the former is much more popular.
The original steel sword forging techniques was founded in China, and Japanese swordsmiths start learning how to forge steel swords during the Tong Dynasty (some 150-180 yrs BC), and the Japanese have refined the technique over time.
soloshoroycom 2 years ago
The Tang(Tong or Tung) was from 7th to 10th centuries AD.
The techniques in both cultures are quite similiar, the folded steel process and such. The katana's and its predecessors' blade cross-sections and geometry can be found on swords from the Tang dynasty.
xxHotSpicyxx 2 years ago
what is the composition of the clay you use to make the hamon?
is it just watery clay?
RSalz4191 2 years ago
Each swordsmith has their own recipe on the mixture used in the clay so there's no definite answer to that question.
soloshoroycom 2 years ago
why are the chinese making japanese swords? dont they have their own swords and culture? what happend to their shaolin swords?
hundreddollz 2 years ago
that blade is garbage the chinese are always coping the japanese swords and culture ive never heard of a folded Taiji sword the chinese are trying so much to be loved and accepted like the japanese
hundreddollz 2 years ago
What's the red stuff for?
TheFlST 3 years ago
To check for consistency.
gyrobotZ 3 years ago
ooo, got it.
TheFlST 3 years ago
The red clay is put on the blade before the final heat tempering to create a unique looking hamon (pattern on the blade)
soloshoroycom 2 years ago
it looks it has low quality...
giglywiglygo 3 years ago
can be katana made from damascus instead of tamahagane ?
Memphston 3 years ago
Katana can be made with many materials, from stainless steel (really cheap one) to industrial grade 9260 steel to even titanium (experimental). There were even a Katana made with carbon fiber with steel edge.
However for most people, "Traditional" Katana should be made with Tamahagane, some hard core even thinks only made in Japan by Japanese swordsmiths.
So it's really up to you to decide what makes a good "Katana".
soloshoroycom 3 years ago
Tamahagane is a type of high carbon steel
kokater 2 years ago
nice
shinigami852 3 years ago
WTF!? triple fold?
icecrimson 3 years ago 4
it is folded much more than 3 times
shinogoku 3 years ago
no not really its folded around ten times to bring out the damascus look
DLJ585 3 years ago
Hey Ponchdude4, what the hell are you saying? Enadon meant the "red stuff" layered on the sword upon the clay for the last quenching...
I was wondering too what composition is...anyone knows?
Vimana1972 3 years ago
oo shiny
ravenclaw995 3 years ago
what's the red stuff? i like swords
enadon1 3 years ago
oh ya the red stuff is tomato sauce
NikolaiKojevnikov 3 years ago
the red thing is the hot metal which makes the blade of the sword. they have to smith it just rite to form a desirable shape. u'd burn your fingers off if u tried to touch it.
ponchodude4 3 years ago
haha.
Zacq768 3 years ago
the red stuff is a kind of clay mixture to give the blade its harmon
raquer10101 3 years ago
cool
peaceowns 3 years ago
Granted the real tamahagane are only smelted once a year in Japan, and they don't export those stuff, so it's impossible to buy it from Japan.
The swordsmith shown in this video, Mr. Chan, have come up with a way to smelt his own tamahagane, started with iron powder.
The entire smelting and forging process was carefully carried out to make sure it's as close to the same tamahagane smelting processing in Japan.
soloshoroycom 3 years ago
Here's a link to the entire smelting / forging process. Please remove spaces.
forums . horoy . com / viewtopic . php ? p = 1425
soloshoroycom 3 years ago
master smiths like barrett and Dicristofano in the USA smelt their own 'tamahagane' - its not done in a japanese based tatara but its composition is more or less the same and both ricks and antonys work is highly prized and sought after - I also agree some chinese forges are putting out very good blades now - not those crappy fleabay 'can chop iron' rubbish - but paul chen , fred chen and chris zou are the leaders in high end quality katana - a high end zou blade is immaculate.
chisacat 3 years ago