Arthur Schopenhauer: A question of motive

[preptimenow]

When a religious person says that atheists are immoral because of a lack of god.What I hear them saying is that without fear of their god they would be someone from whom we would be wise to shield our children.This in turn tells me we should now protect our loved ones from them as they are just one slip up from going with their base desires.

[LittleSn00py]

What is the strongest argument you have against the categorical imperative?

[SecularNumanist]

@LS

I'll grant that reason is universal for a second (as kant does) and subtract the motives from it.

How can we reason about what the rational thing to do is if theres no particular desire to fulfil? All deliberate actions have motives.

So, climbing a ladder to get to the roof is the rational thing to do if our desire is to get up there etc. But subtract the desire and what are you left with? It follows that humans should just be stationary and and stop willing anything.

[LittleSn00py]

@SecularNumanist I'd go the nietzschean route: the categorical imperative is Kant's invention; it is the product of his personality. I don't share his psychological profile, so his moral prejudice doesn't apply to me.

[SecularNumanist]

@LittleSn00py

Well isnt that just one big genetic fallacy? Explaining where it comes from doesn't refute its validity.

And saying you dont share his psychological profile doesnt really deal with the categorical imperative, becaue the whole point in the CA is that it doesnt need a psychological profile, it just applies to all rational beings.

Instead, the best refutation is just to say that a deliberate action without a motive is a contradiction in itself.

[LittleSn00py]

@SecularNumanist Nietzsche often used genetic fallacies in his rhetoric. The supposed reasons why Kant believes about ethics do show he believes it for irrational reasons. His belief in the categorical imperative is irrational. Product of psycho-physical facts about him. Kant derives the categorical imperative as the product of the human mind, something that stems from it. The categorical imperative is the product of Kant's irrational psyche the way a schizophrenic's psyche produces delusions.

[SecularNumanist]

@LittleSn00py

Right well can't that same critique be used against any and all beliefs including Nietzsche's own?

[LittleSn00py]

@SecularNumanist Absolutely, Nietzsche stance of morality is that there is no rational justification for it, including his own.

[LittleSn00py]

@SecularNumanist Kant may think he's discovering something objective that applies to all rational beings, but is deluding himself. Also, such an ethics presupposes one is a free moral agent, something Nietzsche vehemently denied as a hard determinist.

[SecularNumanist]

@LittleSn00py

Kant himself was a determinist though.

[LittleSn00py]

@SecularNumanist Kant's view is ambiguous on that. 

[dadrogon]

Good video. I always wondered if human brother hood was innate or something invented Christians to get me to give alms and tithes (and now taxes). Because this brotherhood thing has existed to some extend for quite awhile I can't tell if it is like a genetic thing, or an ideology that people don't even realize they have.

[niriop]

More Schopenhauer. Now.

[nightpotato]

Morality derives from whim

[atticana]

My assumption about the matter would be that Caius and Titus realised that they were in fact gay and decided to let the hunky guy have the chicks while they made out with each other. Perhaps though I haven't really understood the video.

[SecularNumanist]

@atticana

How could a man of the spirit make such an egregious mistake?

[Metalheadtill1die]

@SecularNumanist Schopenhauer is great! Good video.

[WarblesOnALot]

@Secular Numanist G'day... Well, I still say that I knew hurting other people was too easy to be morally acceptable, when I was 3 ; after sticking the blade of a Chipping-Hoe in the skull of a 2 year-old, in the sandpit... I knew I'd done more damage than I could fix, and that it was WRONG, & immoral, to have chosen to strike the blow...("From out of the mouths of Babes & Innocents there shall come the wisdom of the ages."). Y' may enjoy the top of my vids, atm. Ciao !

[jesokingcryst]

1. none,

2. nowhere.

[CuntyNunez]

superb

[SecularNumanist]

@CuntyNunez

haha, cuntynunez

I actually like Nunez now. he seems okay, spoke to him on skype a while back with realman10000000000.

turns out his "web warriors" persona was just an act.

Thanks by the way

[whedonfreak976]

@SecularNumanist Your video makes me want to buy the book. I will have to get it.

[Ontologistics]

I like the video, the style. As I think you agree, Schopenhauer's ethical theory is somewhat of a failure, as Nietzsche made clear. But the great value of the book from which you quote in this video is Schopenhauer's comprehensive and sustained refutation of Kant's theory of ethics - a refutation that (I believe) paved the way for Nietzsche - arguing that Kant presupposed a Judeo-Christian prescriptive view of ethics, which he called 'slave morals', for example.

Anyway, what's next?

[SecularNumanist]

@Ontologistics

the determinism stuff!

[BuecherFuerAlle]

easy. kill the guy and frame the cat for the murder. obviously, right? boy, schopenhauer was a bit of a dumbass for not even concidering that.

[marniespeaks]

nice job

[fringeelements]

I'm sorry, only UPB adequately and consistently makes the case that murder is immoral.

[fruitikay]

Ah, the Basis of Morals. This is one of those things I would have to think on and ponder to be honest...Great great video. I hadn't heard of a couple of the dudes mentioned.

[SecularNumanist]

@fruitikay

yes fortunately many of them are lying on the scraphead of philosophical history

[SecularNumanist]

@SecularNumanist

scrapheap*

[WarblesOnALot]

@SecularNumanist  G'day... Well, as y' know, I be but a humble auto-didactic pseudo-intellectual, m'self ; but I wonder why ye worry about such stuff ?? Get a job that allows Life & Death & Birth to get in y'r face. As a Nurse I was there for 12 Births & 12 Deaths, & my 2 kids were Homebirths, & I rescuscitated 1 & ID'd the body of 2 Runway Crashes.. It is better to be Selfless, & Non-Resistant... Violence is the Final Refuge for the Incompetant... First, Do No Harm..!

[spawk1993]

Hmm. A British voice behind spooky music talking about shoup.... I've seen this before!

[SecularNumanist]

@spawk1993

Haha, I don't know who you're talking about.

erases ontologistics from list of other channels*

[SecularNumanist]

@spawk1993

Funny you should actually say that though. Ontologistics really got me into Schop. Ive been talking with him on youtube and facebook for months. Hes really knowledgeable about him. I'm like his disciple or some shit lol.

[liberalgamer4]

Wait, at one point you mentions Adam smiths reason being that he would of been given no sympathy among the witnesses, but earlier in the video you mentioned that the two men would not be seen if they committed the murder so doesn't Smiths reason fail apart because there aren't any witnesses in the first part to see the murder, or am I not understanding the situation?

[SecularNumanist]

@liberalgamer4

Well spotted. Schopenhauer clearly didn't think of that. Eitherway, it still demonstrates his inability to provide a basis for morality.

[SecularNumanist]

@SecularNumanist

"his" referring to Smith.

[liberalgamer4]

@SecularNumanist But morality doesn't inherently exist in the first place.

[SecularNumanist]

@liberalgamer4

"inherently exist"

what do you mean? Exist physically? In which case neither does logic or mathematics.

Im not quite sure what you mean

[liberalgamer4]

@SecularNumanist I don't know if This makes sense or not but Don't believe anything really exist, first off I used the base of skepticism to put forward that true knowledge is unattainable if this is true then this must apply to the evidence and proof that backs up something existing as well meaning that all proof has no bassist to stand on as such nothing has any real truest to back it up, it is absurd to believe in something without proof as such it would be absurd to believe anything exists.

[liberalgamer4]

@liberalgamer4 I've either mind fucked you or made you face palm

[SecularNumanist]

@liberalgamer4

thats self defeating. That kind of radical skepticism is predicated on assumptions you failed to be skeptical of yourself.

[SecularNumanist]

@SecularNumanist

for instance, where did you get the idea that something needed proof? Can you prove that requirement?

[SkidRowRadio]

fookin ell, thats a wordy way of sayin "do unto others..."

[SecularNumanist]

@SkidRowRadio

Nah, he was more than that. He thought we should help others as much as we can, and harm nobody.

[SkidRowRadio]

@SecularNumanist well, i look forward to more in the series.. cool presentation too mate. 

[Drgamedood]

Are you a moral nihilist, SecularNumanist? 

[SecularNumanist]

@Drgamedood

Yes. But i did like this little critique of other moral systems. Schops own moral system would then receive criticism from Nietzsche too.

[DanaGarrett]

I'm with Kant, the problems w/ the categorical imperative notwithstanding. Decency and civility are more secured when people act on principle than on feeling.

[ReconquistaGermany]

I remember this quote. Very well done!

[SecularNumanist]

For those expecting one long video, i have changed my mind. instead I will make several smaller videos elaborating on different aspects of his philosophy.