Damn, when I clicked on this, I thought this was about a debate between Richard Dawkins and James Watson, co-discoverer of DNA, possibly about the racist comments made by Watson awhile back.
where s your jupitor? jupitor would be where your ''faith'' would be about. or neptune...(neptune in sagittarius-1970-1982) guessing.....your jupitor could be in capricorn(atheist) or aquarious(freind believer)
but aren't you doing the same thing here? if you complain about Dawkins complaining about Watson, aren't you as guilty as him for telling the public what you think is wrong.. (not trying to offend anyone, just wondering about the logic here) And as a fellow skeptic or atheist, wouldn't I be as 'naive' as you described yourself at the beginning of this video, if I thought the opinion of someone who shares my lack of belief would be the same in every other matter?
I agree; let's move on. We don't need to label Richard (or even the guy in the elevator) as misogynists. If they can move on and admit their mistakes, then let's forget about it.
It's not clear to me why you ask for a comment when you state you're not going to read it and you don't care, however, if you need to game the YouTube system, who am I to judge?
Wrong thoughts lead to wrong opinions. Everyone is flawed, and what if both sides in this non-debate are wrong? I think taking the 3rd path is admirable, actually. You state it's stupid, and it probably is, however, I wasn't interested enough to click either of the original links you provided.
I'd like some cited sources as to what, why and in what way is Carl Sagan a misogynist. Naturally there are no sources. If anyone on this planet is a misogynist, it is certainly not Dr. Sagan.
Am I the only one who thinks Watson was a bit conceited for assuming the man in the elevator was making sexual advances towards her? I'm a thinker. It's what I do. Being one who is interested in ideas, I enjoy discussing these ideas with others from time to time. Coffee is often involved. So is an invitation to drink coffee necessarily a ploy to try to have sex? I think not; especially considering he was the type of guy that would attend a feminism conference.
feminism has no place in the atheist community. atheists advocate social freedom. feminists want social control, telling men and women what they can and can't do.
feminists will never be taken seriously because they are nothing more than a group of bigots, who owe their immense stupidity to studying useless arts degrees instead of something that actually matters.
@whchain no, YOU have no idea what feminism is. feminists who claim they "only want gender equality" are just like PETA activists who say they "only want to stop animal abuse".
if i want to watch porn, i damn well will. if i want to go to a lap dancing club, i damn well will. and any feminazi who tries to tell me what I should do with MY own life can sod off.
@33LB I don't understand why so much hate?!? Feminism is about equality. Just Google the definition of feminism, dude! This idea that feminists want to emasculate man is a distorted image used to delegitimize their actual fight for equal rights. And really dude, just chill the fuck out!
@whchain that "idea" is not a distorted image. i got it from FEMINIST books written by FEMINISTS. obviously my opinion of feminism is based on what feminists themselves actually say. i never believed feminism was evil until i listened to the actual feminists themselves.
feminism is "just about equality" in the same way that PETA is "just about ending animal abuse". feminists put up the "smoke screen" of "equality" to hide their true bigotry. feminists are full of hypocrisy and double standards.
@33LB Again, you keep doing generalizations. You're characterizing the whole movement by it's fringe groups. Like saying that all muslims are terrorists. Ever heard of Donna Laframboise or Christina Hoff Sommers? To me, they are two of the best representatives of modern feminism. And they DO advocate for men's right too, and yet they call themselves feminists. And you can even include Steven Pinker on the mix too. You should inform yourself better...
@whchain again, you're insisting im only looking at fringe groups when im not. care to read my comment about germaine greer again? she is NOT a fringe feminist. "the female eunuch" is to feminism as "the selfish gene" is to evolution. i read the book, and it promotes nothing but bigotry, full of hypocritical statements, double standards, and incoherent logic.
if you havent read this book, then perhaps YOU need to inform yourself better about feminism. even dawkins is against feminism now!
@whchain i recently viewed a nice video in which dawkins explains how, in women's studies faculties, women are being taught that logic, science, and reason are male tools of domination. want the link?
to me, it sounds like you are disregarding feminists you don't like, and only listening to the feminists you do like, allowing you to twist and mould the definition of feminism to suit your own tastes. perhaps greer would say that YOU'RE not representative of feminism!
@33LB Nope! Third wave feminists that disregard Greer as a modern representative. But I do agree with you (and Dawkins) on one thing. Most Women's Studies teachers do have the us vs. them mentality towards men. That I can't deny.
@whchain i still disagree with modern feminists. the feminist group at my university was opposed to lap dancing- bollocks to that. women can lap dance if they feel like it, and i can damn well enjoy it if i feel like it. i do not approve of any ideology which tells people what they can and cannot do- i often find that feminism is such an ideology.
women's studies is a huge waste of time and all funding to it should be cut. it has not produced a single economically useful idea.
@whchain the problem is that feminism has such wide-varying definitions, that virtually anyone could be a feminist. the only thing they all agree on, is that rape is bad. but hey, who is in favour of rape apart from rapists anyway?
But just let me clarify one thing. The man-hating (and porn hating) feminism is ONE of the varieties of feminism that came about on the "second wave". It was a response to the backlash (on the 70's and 80's) that happened after the first wave. Unfortunately some women are still stuck to that idea. Greer is one of them. You can google Feminist Sex Wars (funny name, I know) and see that not all of those 70's feminists were against porn, etc..
@whchain some women? i think it's common knowledge that feminists are mostly against so-called "objectification" of women, and thus, are against porn.
@whchain people like you "cherry pick" parts of feminism you like, and disregard the bits you don't like, so that you can convince yourselves that feminism is a good thing. does this sound familiar at all? do you remember that chapter about cherry picking from the god delusion?
other feminists would claim that you're not a feminist. so who's right? who has the authority to decide what "real" feminism is? **why is your definition of feminism more valid than greer's definition of feminism?**
@33LB I don't think anyone has the authority to decide what "real" feminism is. But IMO third wave feminism is more representative of the original aspects of feminism, mainly equality and the fact that it's a global struggle, not one restricted to first world countries or any specific ethnicity.
@whchain so basically, when have you ever heard feminists speak up about male conscription? male genital mutilation? the lack of men in higher education? male abortion rights?
feminists never mention any of these issues, because feminism is an ideology which is only concerned with women's issues. thus, feminism only takes notice when women are being mistreated- but not men.
@whchain my penis is not offensive. soldiers are not rapists. when i hold a door open for a woman, i am not an oppressor. my Y chromosome is not a genetic defect. i am not a "creep" for trying to initiate a conversation with a woman. i am not a "pervert" for admiring female beauty.
any feminist who promotes any of the above ideas can go back to their useless arts degree. feminists have NO place in the atheist community. they are not wanted.
@33LB Sorry, but the feminists I know don't promote these ideas. Equality is their agenda and mine also. I'm sorry if you only had contact with fringe groups that advocate that we men are worthless.
@whchain germaine greer is not a "fringe group". she has written numerous world-famous books and regularly appears on TV where she promotes her hate and bigotry.
equality is EVERYONE'S agenda. but i promote equality of "opportunity", and not equality of "outcome" as feminist bigots do. equality of outcome is a silly concept in my opinion.
I agree the whole situation is stupid, but what does bother me is the debate it has sparked. The idea that this may serve as a platform for the atheist community to adopt a stance on how atheist men should blunt their behavior towards women because we are so rampantly misogynistic is something I will argue against. Especially when the cited example is crap. While I have no qualms over the idea of more female atheist leaders, I don't want to see feminist rhetoric injected into atheist events.
"Why is feminist blogger Rebecca Watson speaking dismissively of Dawkins' efforts to combat the the oppression of Muslim women?"
(Anyway, i feel better about myself already since watching your video on this sociophilosophical matter.)
If i were in the public eye the last thing i would want people doing is judging me for my views about someone else's views about the oppression of Muslim Women. I for instance think the French are D@#$#s for banning headscarves. So how the heck would that fly?
The problem to me is Rebeca posted a video and showed her thoughts after thinking on it, Why didn't just say no right now I am tired. The deal was done finished in the damned elevator.
I agree that this whole situation has divided people irrationally. I understand both sides of the argument, but nothing productive is coming out of how its being discussed.
Do you care to cite your sources? Or are you just one more blathering idiot who doesn't know their own ass from a hole in the ground. I apologise, perhaps I shouldn't have said that, but in my family we ne'er speak evil of the dead unless it is grounded in truth. If he cheated on his wife, well....he wouldn't be the first to do that. It doesn't make him a woman hater. One thing is certain though, his family was with him at his bedside, as I suspect mine will be at mine.
@Hereticbooks No I can't cite my sources because I can't remember where I heard it from and you must've mistook me. I tried to justify him not being a misogynist. Carl Sagan is one of my greatest idols. I wouldn't dare speak wrong of him. This is a great misunderstanding on your part.
If you can't cite sources, then they're nothing but rumours. I fail to see how the misunderstanding is on MY part, when it was YOU who blathered on about his personal matters. Nevertheless, due to your most recent post, then we are in agreement. I should think both of us should consider only his contribution to this finite planet and all he has done to launch us forward in the scientific arena and leave his personal matters (whether true or false) buried deeper than he is.
wtf?!!!.....carl sagan was a sexist???.....enlighten me ppl....i seem to have never come across anything sexist coming from him....i know the stupid thing about the pioneer plaque....but i think its not evidence enough....
Naturally he was fond of his wife Ann Druyan. The only novel he ever wrote, you know, the one that was made into a movie with Jodie Foster? "Contact!" That was it. The female was the heroine of the story
@Hereticbooks yeah that's what i thought!!....i mean he kept stressing the importance of understanding the infinite universe that surrounds us and how we should be humbled by this vast universe....how can a person with such brilliant convictions be a fucking sexist?!....calling Sagan a sexist is the dumbest thing a person can possibly do.
@PandyFackleresque why are you holding on to your point of view? what does it matter anyway : who is rebecca or what she is or what she undergoes? all bullshit nonsense...
good commentary.. however it is futile to say that this gender power imbalance issue is tiresome.. .. because on a wider note.. power corrupts and it is through the free press that we will evolve to a harmonious society .. where the lion will become vegetarian and lie down with the lamb... ( I know what ypu're thinking.. we have to de-tooth the lion and emasculate te goolies too.. plus extract the finger and toe nails.. so it becomes a big cuddly soft toy)
I've never liked Rebecca. Condescending, cocky, irreverent, sarcastic WAY too much, disrespectful etc... but I do recognise Rebecca's concern(sexism in the atheist community) as she's a critical thinking sceptical woman, and I'm a naturally biassed man. I've always revered Richard, he's the one that helped me deconvert. Although I do think it was apt, insightful and eloquently facetious, I feel Richard should not have made that comment on PZ's blog as too much retaliation and animosity ensues.
How oppressed is Rebecca Watson? Well she cannot maintain her air mile elite status unless she is booked solid travelling all around the world hurting the feelings of religious people. She is liberated enough to drink until the wee hours of the morning and stumble back to her hotel room again and again. She is liberated enough to post nudie pics on her atheism calendar. She is liberated to have hit on her ex-husband at an atheist convention.
Rebecca Watson's ideas are formed borne out of her personal life. You can't divorce your personal life from your beliefs. That said, Watson and the entire feminist movement is a an affront to reason. Christopher Hitchens is a much more compelling atheist.
am a realist think that no 1 should b out casted for things like their sex age race or options i know that most people are one sided and you cant win no matter how hard you try if some as you said if some 1 has some thing against an other person they should keep it too them selfs because unless they have gone though the exact same think and i mean the exact same thing they cant truly know what its like
@daymyth i broke in her house and stole her diaries... and posted them on a blog site. i forgot which one thoug hso don't bother asking.. also i read in the diary that she loves hotdogs and she doesn't even chew before she swallows. WHAT A BITCH!!
@joshuagoboom Never-mind, I went out and got confirmation from the source. This is indeed the case and reading through her blog alot of the "spekchic" commentators tend to have an ironic anti-male, anti-white attitude that is very common of university arts students.
@daymyth that's what's cool now adays. im asian and it shocks me everytime i meet a whte woman who just hate mles in general but white males more than others.
it's the whole "oh you white men did all this so im gonna hate on you because that makes me look like i care".
i've seen self hating asian women, but not as bad..
@joshuagoboom No the irony comes from the fact that what you should be striving for is equality, and judgement based on merit and not race or gender.
But these women say things like "white men should take them selves off panels if there is a black person"
Right, because I'm black I should be given floorspace. Not because I do outstanding work... Nope, because of my race or gender I should be prioritized... See the irony?
Rebecca Watson is very smart (in a sort of Cunning way I mean)
She 99,99% invented the whole thing (imaginary guy who coffee raped her in an irish elevator), we know nothing about imaginary mokka-molestor, no name surname place of birth date of birth skin color nationality citizenship nothing at all except the fact that he OMG offered a cup of coffee OMG I'm so scared I poo in my pants. But hey, you know what? The whole planet is talking about POOR Rebecca coffee gang raped in an elevator...
...if that's not going to make her a celebrity (I know nothing before about Skepchick, now unfortunately I DO know) and I live in Central Europe so.... well done girl.. very smart (cunning). But she promotes skepticism, well I do the same thing. I don't believe for one second. I think she is a big fat liar. Coffe-Elevator man... I think it never happened, I think she told that garbage to have more viewers. Well Rebecca you are a hero. a MARKETING HERO. And people are so slow..
one person is able to hold two conflicting views at the same time. if you look at the brain ("mind") as "modular" then this possible. viewing the mind as unitary makes this tough to see... ;)
When someone claims to be a rational and logical person and then says something that's irrational and illogical, it just causes us all to second guess their mental faculties. It doesn't invalidate their previous points on other matters, it just gives us all a moment of pause regarding whether we want this person speaking on our behalf at conferences. It's sad to see it all go to hell in a handbasket over feminism, something that has zero to do with atheism
I think at the very least we ought to judge a person based on the cultural context of the time. We really can't blame Sagan for misogyny, since the entire contemporary culture to him was many times less enlightened, but I think we should not give any such pass to Dawkins, since insulting dismissal of the issues Western Women face in this sexist society is now enabling ideas that are backwards to contemporary moral zeitgeist to permeate. However, this is not rebuttal to his other good ideas.
If you found Newton to be misogynist should you ignore gravity? Very good point and ur 100% right. I think Dawkins in his own sarcastic way meant Rebecca's situation is a personal issue not a feminist problem. He didn't mean Rebecca situation is lesser problem but it no problem at all. So let's get on with real women issues. He is entitled to his views and has the right to express in his usual way. Rebecca needs to learn to take ridicule like the theist do because her sexism belief is absurd.
@nonamechannel "He didn't mean Rebecca situation is lesser problem but it no problem at all."
Wrong, Dawkins does think it is no problem at all,"But my point is that the 'slightly bad thing' suffered by Rebecca was not even slightly bad, it was zero bad. A man asked her back to his room for coffee. She said no. End of story."
@loveofphysics May be I didn't write properly. I thought I was actually saying the same thing. I agree, Dawkins does think it is no problem at all. I agree it is zero bad and has no impact on sexism or feminist issues.
@nonamechannel The actual event was slightly bad, Watson clearly felt uncomfortable, unsafe, and disrespected. Any event that would make a person feel such things qualifies as bad.
The response to the event is horribly bad. The fact that so many people think that Watson has no right to express feelings of discomfort or disrespect, and that so many think Men are entitled to have every proposition accepted by women shows that sexism still permeates all aspects of Western society.
@loveofphysics Disagree. Women cannot have best of the both worlds... the man's world and the women's world. Freedom of speech includes criticizing ridiculing women and their beliefs. Dawkins does this to theist all the time. Uncomfortable, unsafe, disrespect etc... are personal feelings not a violation of human rights. Watson has right to express her feelings but she does not have the authority to preach all men that is wrong. It is her subjective belief and not all women share her belief.
@nonamechannel There is a difference between someone's opinion about reality and someone's subjective account of an experience that happened to them, the former may or may not be a fact while the latter is a fact. If she felt unsafe, uncomfortable or disrespected then that is a FACT. And it is utterly senseless to deny a person validation over the FACTS of his or her OWN FEELINGS.
She also never preached that all men were wrong, that is a lie on your part.
@loveofphysics Don't disagree with you that her feelings are a fact not a matter of opinion but her idea he sexualized is her opinion and not a fact because she doesn't know what that guy had in mind. On top we only heard her version of the story. "A word for the wise, guys. Don't don't that" is for all men. Her later posting in her website and response to dawkins all attest to this fact. She thinks all women should share her feeling and ridiculed women like stef & stclairose who disagreed.
My disgust with irrelevant personal 'stuff' (no matter the so-called 'morality') being allowed to negatively affect reputation/standing/career &or belief-structure really got fired up with the whole Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky debacle. Quite likely the most intelligent world leader ever, definitely the brightest star of recent decades, being brought down by something which had absolutely NOTHING to do with his superb capability to guide & lead this poor excuse for a country.
As much as I disagree with the way Dawkins raises his daughters: To run off with strange men met in elevators in foreign lands at 4:00 AM, I still admire the work the stupid, goddamn asshole did in the field of evolutionary biology.
what makes a person an atheist, I'm a 25 year old caltech graduate with a PhD in theoretical Physics and I am not an atheist..because i have studied fluid mechanics and Thales-Einsteins "Spinoza's God" which tells us ENTROPY is HALF of the Universal Equation i.e theres such a thing as Reverse-Entropy
Is it because you think you only have 2 choices? Ignorant Christianity and or Logic and Reason? Ive got uploads that put both theories to rest :D
A person who otherwise has bad ideas or engages in stupid behavior may from time to time say true and of great importance. This is beyond question.
But I see the other side of the debate as well. If we know someone who constantly engages in stupid behavior or very often makes pointless and absurd statements, THEN we can rationally assume that there is an underlying cause for this. In tiurn, we can reasonably expect future statements of said person to likely be stupid and absurd as well.
The message should not be "Men don't be a creep and listen to the women worries" but "Men, behave yourselves, and don't expect a yes at certain places and hours".
Or also: "Men , I really like to talk to you but do this in public where I have all my attention for you". That is it. More effective.
This will of course have zero effect on the bad guys, but at least the good guys are reinforced to stay a man, but also take this into account. They will happely do this.
It is also devastating to women since the good men have become to doubt themselves and I know many women. They need a stable anchor, not someone that is doubting himself if he is being creepy.
It should not be creepy when a man asks something, no matter what hour or where. They should expect this, and they already should have a standard answer: "No, thanks". And when he touches you you should have the standard reflex to kick in the... The creepy is is because you are not used to it any-more.
I was one of the good men long time ago that fell for this call not to be a bad guy. I actually did everything to prevent being a bad guy and not be a freak. I actually listened to al my female friends. And what was the result? I couldn't get a date, and the relationships was of short duration.
I know many other good men that are caught up into this trap and even now are still single. And they become even more creepy than before since they have no idea how to handle when there is a woman.
The big thing that I am surprised in all this discussion is that sceptical people don't realize that by actively calling for not being freaky and having to listen to the women's worries actually has a devastating effect in the long run on both men and women.
On Women because when you yell that men are freaky, you scare off other women that now gets reinforced that all men are bad.
On Men because the good guys will hesitate but the bad guys will just ignore it and do the same thing.
The real issue that comes out of all this is the lack of rationality in general. Atheists are not somehow immune to suspension of rationality. Also, it's interesting that one would take pride in being an Atheist to begin with. It's like taking pride in not believing in Santa. The word, "atheist" only describes what someone is not, and even the word does not imply rationality. Almost everyone would like to see themselves as rational beings.
so..watson got hit on in an elevator and dawkins pointed out that she was making a mountain out of a molehill..thats it..? shit people need to get a life.
I commented on friendly atheist's blog „I am baffled by this line “Everyone is overreacting. All of you. (Yes, you too.)” since I am in the „Team I Don’t Give a S*it”.
Am I exagerating with my non-shit-giving. Should I be extreeme? Should I bomb somebody?
you're only inflaming the fire, because people don't want to be bossed around by whiney little shitheads that can't hold their liquor "stop fighting, because i'm the boss" piss off, no one asked you
@userono You are really ridiculous. I am almost sure you didn't read FA's article, that's why you didn't get it. And ease up on the name calling, it amplifies the comic effect, especially when you're clearly unaware of WHAT I am responding to.
I dont consider dawkin to be a good debater at all, and im an atheist skeptic. He doesnt know very much about logical fallacies and he isnt good at pointing them out. He basicly focuses on how much damage religion causes instead of weather or not its true.
- 1e the sexual interaction between men and women and things people have to do to get acquanted with someone of the opposite sex, and
- 2e the equal rights they both sexes should have.
I think women in America have those rights now and ya a woman will be appreached by a man sometimes and as long he does not offend her and she can say: "No thanks", what is the problem? Or will Rebacca abolish the special interaction between the sexes?
It's not a a celebrity thing, she should apologise for being a fucktard and distance herself from the spastics. Nothing could hurt 'the cause' more than than the pigspunk she came out with.
@PandyFackleresque Equality matters, and 94% of all men are good men, that will never even think of violating a woman. We just walk around as ourselves, many not always being good at social situations. I come from Norway, which is a very nice place to live, and feminism in the equality-perspective is really great. We've come so far here, but feminism is not the same as equal rights, which is what we really should be pursuing. When feminism infringes on being treated equally, we should debate!
I admit that I have this problem, of judging what others say based on their personal views. For instance, I would be a lot less likely to support an opinion if the person were a neo-Nazi without determining if their own personal bias had influenced that opinion. Doesn't change the fact that said person might have a well thought out opinion though, but in such a case my reaction I think would be justified.
dont know if he was gay, but i have conversations with females i dont know all the time. just cuz im a guy doesnt mean i want to fuck everything that walks
Skepchik's sexist shit was getting to me before it hit the fan and no I don't respect people like that. I saw the video she did about how douches are bad and it was informative but some comments she made on that made me think that perhaps she isn't really worth paying attention to. Some of the stuff she said makes it sound like she can't deal with males and I'm a humanist so perhaps she is better off in a exclusive female feminist/atheist club.
Dawkins was clearly making a contrast between the relatively liberal west and conservative middle east. To say that he intended to trivilialise sexism in the west is presumptuous and irrational. Unless Dawkins specifically stated that people have no right to complain about sexism in the west then all his critics on this particular point are feminazis and need to stfu
This is coming from one of the rare people who actually agree that Watson was right in being pissed about the elevator incident
I think the point is peopel can say things good and bad, but we need to take them individually. This whoel things between these otherwise two good poepel and atehists is silly. I quite like both adn have enormous but not overwhelming respect for Ricahrd. Howevr i know I have said some thing that looking back later good have been said betetr adn think both peopel suffer from a case of speaking without tyhinking first.
Not referring to someone's personal life that's involved in the atheist community would be a bit hypocritical of the atheist community. The atheist community seems to always points out the things in religious people's personal life that contradict their religion. If she's putting her personal life out there ie telling all of her personal experiences about all these evil men she's came across that offer her coffee, I don't see any reason not to delve into the rest.
Of course we'd all like a community that's based in reason and skepticism to resolve it's argument with -- oh, I don't know -- reason. But in the end, we also have to accept that we're the products of an evolutionary process and we are also beings that are driven by impulses that are frequently non-rational, even in our discussions and debates and in the structures of our organizations. We want leaders and heroes and maidens, myths and villains because those narrative concepts inform our lives.
Did you come to that conclusion because he sent a letter to every member of the Explorer's Club telling them they should allow women in and they did? I think you are either terribly confused or just wrong.
...Someone makes a clumsy pass at you in an elevator? Why not broadcast it to the world and turn it into a woe-is-me-moment how about you just say “no thanks” and get over it? Also, her imposed wedding was a massive narcissistic moment for me, take an auditorium of people who are there for something else and impose a personal moment on them? How about Muse stops playing the songs at their next concert and throws an hour-long birthday party for the drummer?
Damn, when I clicked on this, I thought this was about a debate between Richard Dawkins and James Watson, co-discoverer of DNA, possibly about the racist comments made by Watson awhile back.
ClamCrunchy 2 weeks ago
You are one of the most beautiful people I have ever seen.
JekyllAndHydeEffect 3 weeks ago
Dawkins all the way; speaketh the truth.
vdgsify 1 month ago
I have no idea what she's talking about.
gerry4ta 1 month ago
Amazingathiest did the best take on this situation IMO and really put things into proper perspective.
Dobogio 1 month ago
where s your jupitor? jupitor would be where your ''faith'' would be about. or neptune...(neptune in sagittarius-1970-1982) guessing.....your jupitor could be in capricorn(atheist) or aquarious(freind believer)
theforestero 2 months ago
@theforestero ....what are you even talking about?
PandyFackleresque 2 months ago 4
I've had some good laughs reading strange comments on youtube, but this takes the gold. Especially after reading PandyFackleresque's response.
Dillingerman1 3 weeks ago
Comment removed
Dillingerman1 3 weeks ago
but aren't you doing the same thing here? if you complain about Dawkins complaining about Watson, aren't you as guilty as him for telling the public what you think is wrong.. (not trying to offend anyone, just wondering about the logic here) And as a fellow skeptic or atheist, wouldn't I be as 'naive' as you described yourself at the beginning of this video, if I thought the opinion of someone who shares my lack of belief would be the same in every other matter?
Zipinq 2 months ago
u r right
AXharoth 3 months ago
I agree; let's move on. We don't need to label Richard (or even the guy in the elevator) as misogynists. If they can move on and admit their mistakes, then let's forget about it.
ZombieCobain 3 months ago
It's not clear to me why you ask for a comment when you state you're not going to read it and you don't care, however, if you need to game the YouTube system, who am I to judge?
Wrong thoughts lead to wrong opinions. Everyone is flawed, and what if both sides in this non-debate are wrong? I think taking the 3rd path is admirable, actually. You state it's stupid, and it probably is, however, I wasn't interested enough to click either of the original links you provided.
I did however waste 5:39
SigersonLTD 3 months ago
Shit, your nose is identical to mine.lol
lemmidos 3 months ago
@Niggeritarian
I'd like some cited sources as to what, why and in what way is Carl Sagan a misogynist. Naturally there are no sources. If anyone on this planet is a misogynist, it is certainly not Dr. Sagan.
Hereticbooks 3 months ago
WTF, I thought this would be about Emma Watson's suspiciously striking resemblance to Richard Dawkins.
remnant24 3 months ago
Am I the only one who thinks Watson was a bit conceited for assuming the man in the elevator was making sexual advances towards her? I'm a thinker. It's what I do. Being one who is interested in ideas, I enjoy discussing these ideas with others from time to time. Coffee is often involved. So is an invitation to drink coffee necessarily a ploy to try to have sex? I think not; especially considering he was the type of guy that would attend a feminism conference.
jackb08 4 months ago
And how, exactly, was Carl Sagan a misogynist?
pamew 4 months ago
Carl Sagan? What made you come to that conclusion? Not saying you're not right, but what evidence do you have?
deekeeley83 4 months ago
feminism has no place in the atheist community. atheists advocate social freedom. feminists want social control, telling men and women what they can and can't do.
feminists will never be taken seriously because they are nothing more than a group of bigots, who owe their immense stupidity to studying useless arts degrees instead of something that actually matters.
33LB 5 months ago
Comment removed
whchain 5 months ago in playlist Mais vídeos de PandyFackleresque
You sir, have no idea what feminism is...
whchain 5 months ago in playlist Mais vídeos de PandyFackleresque
@whchain no, YOU have no idea what feminism is. feminists who claim they "only want gender equality" are just like PETA activists who say they "only want to stop animal abuse".
if i want to watch porn, i damn well will. if i want to go to a lap dancing club, i damn well will. and any feminazi who tries to tell me what I should do with MY own life can sod off.
33LB 5 months ago
@33LB I don't understand why so much hate?!? Feminism is about equality. Just Google the definition of feminism, dude! This idea that feminists want to emasculate man is a distorted image used to delegitimize their actual fight for equal rights. And really dude, just chill the fuck out!
whchain 5 months ago
@whchain that "idea" is not a distorted image. i got it from FEMINIST books written by FEMINISTS. obviously my opinion of feminism is based on what feminists themselves actually say. i never believed feminism was evil until i listened to the actual feminists themselves.
feminism is "just about equality" in the same way that PETA is "just about ending animal abuse". feminists put up the "smoke screen" of "equality" to hide their true bigotry. feminists are full of hypocrisy and double standards.
33LB 4 months ago
@33LB Again, you keep doing generalizations. You're characterizing the whole movement by it's fringe groups. Like saying that all muslims are terrorists. Ever heard of Donna Laframboise or Christina Hoff Sommers? To me, they are two of the best representatives of modern feminism. And they DO advocate for men's right too, and yet they call themselves feminists. And you can even include Steven Pinker on the mix too. You should inform yourself better...
whchain 4 months ago
@whchain again, you're insisting im only looking at fringe groups when im not. care to read my comment about germaine greer again? she is NOT a fringe feminist. "the female eunuch" is to feminism as "the selfish gene" is to evolution. i read the book, and it promotes nothing but bigotry, full of hypocritical statements, double standards, and incoherent logic.
if you havent read this book, then perhaps YOU need to inform yourself better about feminism. even dawkins is against feminism now!
33LB 4 months ago
@33LB Dawkins against feminism!? Dude, you're delusional!!! (pun intended)
And I read your comment about Greer. She's not a representative of modern feminism.
whchain 4 months ago
@whchain i recently viewed a nice video in which dawkins explains how, in women's studies faculties, women are being taught that logic, science, and reason are male tools of domination. want the link?
to me, it sounds like you are disregarding feminists you don't like, and only listening to the feminists you do like, allowing you to twist and mould the definition of feminism to suit your own tastes. perhaps greer would say that YOU'RE not representative of feminism!
33LB 4 months ago
@33LB Nope! Third wave feminists that disregard Greer as a modern representative. But I do agree with you (and Dawkins) on one thing. Most Women's Studies teachers do have the us vs. them mentality towards men. That I can't deny.
whchain 4 months ago
@whchain i still disagree with modern feminists. the feminist group at my university was opposed to lap dancing- bollocks to that. women can lap dance if they feel like it, and i can damn well enjoy it if i feel like it. i do not approve of any ideology which tells people what they can and cannot do- i often find that feminism is such an ideology.
women's studies is a huge waste of time and all funding to it should be cut. it has not produced a single economically useful idea.
33LB 4 months ago
@33LB Third wave feminists are mainly social libertarians. So they are not against prostitution, porn, etc..
whchain 4 months ago
@whchain the problem is that feminism has such wide-varying definitions, that virtually anyone could be a feminist. the only thing they all agree on, is that rape is bad. but hey, who is in favour of rape apart from rapists anyway?
33LB 4 months ago
@33LB LOL
But just let me clarify one thing. The man-hating (and porn hating) feminism is ONE of the varieties of feminism that came about on the "second wave". It was a response to the backlash (on the 70's and 80's) that happened after the first wave. Unfortunately some women are still stuck to that idea. Greer is one of them. You can google Feminist Sex Wars (funny name, I know) and see that not all of those 70's feminists were against porn, etc..
whchain 4 months ago
@whchain some women? i think it's common knowledge that feminists are mostly against so-called "objectification" of women, and thus, are against porn.
33LB 4 months ago
@whchain people like you "cherry pick" parts of feminism you like, and disregard the bits you don't like, so that you can convince yourselves that feminism is a good thing. does this sound familiar at all? do you remember that chapter about cherry picking from the god delusion?
other feminists would claim that you're not a feminist. so who's right? who has the authority to decide what "real" feminism is? **why is your definition of feminism more valid than greer's definition of feminism?**
33LB 4 months ago
@33LB I don't think anyone has the authority to decide what "real" feminism is. But IMO third wave feminism is more representative of the original aspects of feminism, mainly equality and the fact that it's a global struggle, not one restricted to first world countries or any specific ethnicity.
whchain 4 months ago
@whchain so basically, when have you ever heard feminists speak up about male conscription? male genital mutilation? the lack of men in higher education? male abortion rights?
feminists never mention any of these issues, because feminism is an ideology which is only concerned with women's issues. thus, feminism only takes notice when women are being mistreated- but not men.
equality my ass.
33LB 4 months ago
@whchain my penis is not offensive. soldiers are not rapists. when i hold a door open for a woman, i am not an oppressor. my Y chromosome is not a genetic defect. i am not a "creep" for trying to initiate a conversation with a woman. i am not a "pervert" for admiring female beauty.
any feminist who promotes any of the above ideas can go back to their useless arts degree. feminists have NO place in the atheist community. they are not wanted.
33LB 5 months ago
@33LB Sorry, but the feminists I know don't promote these ideas. Equality is their agenda and mine also. I'm sorry if you only had contact with fringe groups that advocate that we men are worthless.
whchain 5 months ago
@whchain germaine greer is not a "fringe group". she has written numerous world-famous books and regularly appears on TV where she promotes her hate and bigotry.
equality is EVERYONE'S agenda. but i promote equality of "opportunity", and not equality of "outcome" as feminist bigots do. equality of outcome is a silly concept in my opinion.
33LB 4 months ago
wow
Ash243x 5 months ago
I agree the whole situation is stupid, but what does bother me is the debate it has sparked. The idea that this may serve as a platform for the atheist community to adopt a stance on how atheist men should blunt their behavior towards women because we are so rampantly misogynistic is something I will argue against. Especially when the cited example is crap. While I have no qualms over the idea of more female atheist leaders, I don't want to see feminist rhetoric injected into atheist events.
sarge525 5 months ago in playlist Elevator Girl & Sexism among Atheists
@MrWllrobey Too right you are. It's much easier to call me a dyke and be done with it.
PandyFackleresque 5 months ago
"Why is feminist blogger Rebecca Watson speaking dismissively of Dawkins' efforts to combat the the oppression of Muslim women?"
(Anyway, i feel better about myself already since watching your video on this sociophilosophical matter.)
If i were in the public eye the last thing i would want people doing is judging me for my views about someone else's views about the oppression of Muslim Women. I for instance think the French are D@#$#s for banning headscarves. So how the heck would that fly?
ClickBeetles 5 months ago
Your videos have inspired me to get all of my teeth redone in platinum also. Thanks!
ByTheGram 5 months ago
The problem to me is Rebeca posted a video and showed her thoughts after thinking on it, Why didn't just say no right now I am tired. The deal was done finished in the damned elevator.
no1saphead 5 months ago
I agree that this whole situation has divided people irrationally. I understand both sides of the argument, but nothing productive is coming out of how its being discussed.
RitchandFamous 5 months ago
I fully agree that a person's personal life does not impact the value of their ideas.
devourerofbabies 5 months ago
love your hair n__n
AbsoluteMMA101 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Did you say carl sagan was a misogynist? Prove it or you are a fucking liar!
uknichu 6 months ago
Where do you get the notion that Carl Sagan was a mysoginist? That statement was mind-blowing.
Hereticbooks 6 months ago 23
@Hereticbooks I thought he loved women, hell he fucking cheated on his wife and conceived I don't know how many people..
Tarantula33222 5 months ago
@Tarantula33222
Do you care to cite your sources? Or are you just one more blathering idiot who doesn't know their own ass from a hole in the ground. I apologise, perhaps I shouldn't have said that, but in my family we ne'er speak evil of the dead unless it is grounded in truth. If he cheated on his wife, well....he wouldn't be the first to do that. It doesn't make him a woman hater. One thing is certain though, his family was with him at his bedside, as I suspect mine will be at mine.
Hereticbooks 5 months ago
@Hereticbooks No I can't cite my sources because I can't remember where I heard it from and you must've mistook me. I tried to justify him not being a misogynist. Carl Sagan is one of my greatest idols. I wouldn't dare speak wrong of him. This is a great misunderstanding on your part.
Tarantula33222 5 months ago
@Tarantula33222
If you can't cite sources, then they're nothing but rumours. I fail to see how the misunderstanding is on MY part, when it was YOU who blathered on about his personal matters. Nevertheless, due to your most recent post, then we are in agreement. I should think both of us should consider only his contribution to this finite planet and all he has done to launch us forward in the scientific arena and leave his personal matters (whether true or false) buried deeper than he is.
Hereticbooks 5 months ago
@Hereticbooks well his wife(s) thougt so, altough from what i understand he listened and "improved" or whatever word should be used
IvarNordman 2 months ago
PANDYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY.... that is all.
Drstrangelove17 6 months ago
Lesbian pride
UncleFourFinger 6 months ago
@UncleFourFinger I'm no lesbian so I think it would be wrong of me to feel pride for being one.
PandyFackleresque 6 months ago 4
@PandyFackleresque wat are u saying
ps whatever are u single
boogaloosun 1 month ago
@boogaloosun single not dating
boogaloosun 1 week ago
Sagan ain't so!
FlashFizz 6 months ago
your bad go die!
bobjoshjos 6 months ago
@bobjoshjos I'm afraid it's you're bad, go die!
endthedisease 6 months ago
@endthedisease you mad bro?
bobjoshjos 6 months ago
Wait, wait, wait... who the fuck is Rebecca Watson...
ScopeHoophy 6 months ago
@ScopeHoophy She's a member of the Skeptic's Guide to the Universe podcast
PandyFackleresque 6 months ago
wtf?!!!.....carl sagan was a sexist???.....enlighten me ppl....i seem to have never come across anything sexist coming from him....i know the stupid thing about the pioneer plaque....but i think its not evidence enough....
natuankur 6 months ago 2
@natuankur
Naturally he was fond of his wife Ann Druyan. The only novel he ever wrote, you know, the one that was made into a movie with Jodie Foster? "Contact!" That was it. The female was the heroine of the story
Hereticbooks 6 months ago
@Hereticbooks yeah that's what i thought!!....i mean he kept stressing the importance of understanding the infinite universe that surrounds us and how we should be humbled by this vast universe....how can a person with such brilliant convictions be a fucking sexist?!....calling Sagan a sexist is the dumbest thing a person can possibly do.
this girl is just dumb.
natuankur 6 months ago
@natuankur
I agree. Of course I'm a woman myself, and I regard Sagan as a hero.
Hereticbooks 6 months ago
Hey I really liked your video. Don't take this the wrong way, but would you like to come back to my channel for coffee?
salamirterra 6 months ago 10
@salamirterra WIN.
PandyFackleresque 6 months ago
@PandyFackleresque I'm sorry, but I believe it's bi-winning.
daymyth 6 months ago
@PandyFackleresque why are you holding on to your point of view? what does it matter anyway : who is rebecca or what she is or what she undergoes? all bullshit nonsense...
human2011able 3 months ago
good commentary.. however it is futile to say that this gender power imbalance issue is tiresome.. .. because on a wider note.. power corrupts and it is through the free press that we will evolve to a harmonious society .. where the lion will become vegetarian and lie down with the lamb... ( I know what ypu're thinking.. we have to de-tooth the lion and emasculate te goolies too.. plus extract the finger and toe nails.. so it becomes a big cuddly soft toy)
JCmultiverse 6 months ago
dawkins should slap her across the face with this cock, fucking idiot.
donohue100 6 months ago
I've never liked Rebecca. Condescending, cocky, irreverent, sarcastic WAY too much, disrespectful etc... but I do recognise Rebecca's concern(sexism in the atheist community) as she's a critical thinking sceptical woman, and I'm a naturally biassed man. I've always revered Richard, he's the one that helped me deconvert. Although I do think it was apt, insightful and eloquently facetious, I feel Richard should not have made that comment on PZ's blog as too much retaliation and animosity ensues.
fnanfne 6 months ago
why is everybody talking about that? it's such a non-issue. why would anybody care about who is hittin on whom? an why would watson even mention it?
I honestly don't like her... she seems more of an attention-seeking shallow celebrity than a skeptic
Reason4234 6 months ago
How oppressed is Rebecca Watson? Well she cannot maintain her air mile elite status unless she is booked solid travelling all around the world hurting the feelings of religious people. She is liberated enough to drink until the wee hours of the morning and stumble back to her hotel room again and again. She is liberated enough to post nudie pics on her atheism calendar. She is liberated to have hit on her ex-husband at an atheist convention.
rcguy69 6 months ago
Rebecca Watson's ideas are formed borne out of her personal life. You can't divorce your personal life from your beliefs. That said, Watson and the entire feminist movement is a an affront to reason. Christopher Hitchens is a much more compelling atheist.
professorfoxtrot 7 months ago
Carl Sagan was a Panda.
Zontertes 7 months ago
I agree with you about Brian Dunning. LOL
PsychoGerbil666 7 months ago
am a realist think that no 1 should b out casted for things like their sex age race or options i know that most people are one sided and you cant win no matter how hard you try if some as you said if some 1 has some thing against an other person they should keep it too them selfs because unless they have gone though the exact same think and i mean the exact same thing they cant truly know what its like
mymonkey1111 7 months ago
Comment removed
davidkbarcus 7 months ago
Fun fact: watson met her ex husband by hitting on him at a convention. she is a shrill whining hypocrite.
tooyjfwn 7 months ago 38
@tooyjfwn Yeah. She loved to tell that story. And to encourage women to hit on men.
Girl power!
DejectedPanda 6 months ago
@tooyjfwn How do you know this for a fact?
daymyth 6 months ago
@daymyth i broke in her house and stole her diaries... and posted them on a blog site. i forgot which one thoug hso don't bother asking.. also i read in the diary that she loves hotdogs and she doesn't even chew before she swallows. WHAT A BITCH!!
joshuagoboom 6 months ago
@joshuagoboom Never-mind, I went out and got confirmation from the source. This is indeed the case and reading through her blog alot of the "spekchic" commentators tend to have an ironic anti-male, anti-white attitude that is very common of university arts students.
daymyth 6 months ago
@daymyth that's what's cool now adays. im asian and it shocks me everytime i meet a whte woman who just hate mles in general but white males more than others.
it's the whole "oh you white men did all this so im gonna hate on you because that makes me look like i care".
i've seen self hating asian women, but not as bad..
joshuagoboom 6 months ago
@joshuagoboom No the irony comes from the fact that what you should be striving for is equality, and judgement based on merit and not race or gender.
But these women say things like "white men should take them selves off panels if there is a black person"
Right, because I'm black I should be given floorspace. Not because I do outstanding work... Nope, because of my race or gender I should be prioritized... See the irony?
It's like a lead sandwich
daymyth 6 months ago
@joshuagoboom But your're right it is popular and hip to hate on white men... So stupid...
daymyth 6 months ago
Rebecca Watson is very smart (in a sort of Cunning way I mean)
She 99,99% invented the whole thing (imaginary guy who coffee raped her in an irish elevator), we know nothing about imaginary mokka-molestor, no name surname place of birth date of birth skin color nationality citizenship nothing at all except the fact that he OMG offered a cup of coffee OMG I'm so scared I poo in my pants. But hey, you know what? The whole planet is talking about POOR Rebecca coffee gang raped in an elevator...
imscaredofcoffee 7 months ago
@imscaredofcoffee
...if that's not going to make her a celebrity (I know nothing before about Skepchick, now unfortunately I DO know) and I live in Central Europe so.... well done girl.. very smart (cunning). But she promotes skepticism, well I do the same thing. I don't believe for one second. I think she is a big fat liar. Coffe-Elevator man... I think it never happened, I think she told that garbage to have more viewers. Well Rebecca you are a hero. a MARKETING HERO. And people are so slow..
imscaredofcoffee 7 months ago
as every feminist knows, rapes usually start with a polite guy asking you to have coffee with them.
endthedisease 7 months ago
one person is able to hold two conflicting views at the same time. if you look at the brain ("mind") as "modular" then this possible. viewing the mind as unitary makes this tough to see... ;)
yurianne07 7 months ago
how exactly was Carl Sagan misogynist?
blackraider777 7 months ago
@blackraider777 Because a woman said so.
j1mmyZeta 7 months ago
@j1mmyZeta ah, i see
blackraider777 7 months ago
good point, unfortunately i looked this up; sad really and stupid.
i will point out that this is just the same argument made before with a few changes
youtube.com/watch?v=_ZucDMmRVRc&feature=channel_video_title
with Dawkins making Maher's point and Smiley making Watson's point.
tell me if you agree.
turtledragon420 7 months ago
When someone claims to be a rational and logical person and then says something that's irrational and illogical, it just causes us all to second guess their mental faculties. It doesn't invalidate their previous points on other matters, it just gives us all a moment of pause regarding whether we want this person speaking on our behalf at conferences. It's sad to see it all go to hell in a handbasket over feminism, something that has zero to do with atheism
travlr3000x 7 months ago
Comment removed
travlr3000x 7 months ago
I think at the very least we ought to judge a person based on the cultural context of the time. We really can't blame Sagan for misogyny, since the entire contemporary culture to him was many times less enlightened, but I think we should not give any such pass to Dawkins, since insulting dismissal of the issues Western Women face in this sexist society is now enabling ideas that are backwards to contemporary moral zeitgeist to permeate. However, this is not rebuttal to his other good ideas.
loveofphysics 7 months ago
If you found Newton to be misogynist should you ignore gravity? Very good point and ur 100% right. I think Dawkins in his own sarcastic way meant Rebecca's situation is a personal issue not a feminist problem. He didn't mean Rebecca situation is lesser problem but it no problem at all. So let's get on with real women issues. He is entitled to his views and has the right to express in his usual way. Rebecca needs to learn to take ridicule like the theist do because her sexism belief is absurd.
nonamechannel 7 months ago
@nonamechannel "He didn't mean Rebecca situation is lesser problem but it no problem at all."
Wrong, Dawkins does think it is no problem at all,"But my point is that the 'slightly bad thing' suffered by Rebecca was not even slightly bad, it was zero bad. A man asked her back to his room for coffee. She said no. End of story."
loveofphysics 7 months ago
@loveofphysics May be I didn't write properly. I thought I was actually saying the same thing. I agree, Dawkins does think it is no problem at all. I agree it is zero bad and has no impact on sexism or feminist issues.
nonamechannel 7 months ago
@nonamechannel The actual event was slightly bad, Watson clearly felt uncomfortable, unsafe, and disrespected. Any event that would make a person feel such things qualifies as bad.
The response to the event is horribly bad. The fact that so many people think that Watson has no right to express feelings of discomfort or disrespect, and that so many think Men are entitled to have every proposition accepted by women shows that sexism still permeates all aspects of Western society.
loveofphysics 7 months ago
@loveofphysics Disagree. Women cannot have best of the both worlds... the man's world and the women's world. Freedom of speech includes criticizing ridiculing women and their beliefs. Dawkins does this to theist all the time. Uncomfortable, unsafe, disrespect etc... are personal feelings not a violation of human rights. Watson has right to express her feelings but she does not have the authority to preach all men that is wrong. It is her subjective belief and not all women share her belief.
nonamechannel 7 months ago
@nonamechannel There is a difference between someone's opinion about reality and someone's subjective account of an experience that happened to them, the former may or may not be a fact while the latter is a fact. If she felt unsafe, uncomfortable or disrespected then that is a FACT. And it is utterly senseless to deny a person validation over the FACTS of his or her OWN FEELINGS.
She also never preached that all men were wrong, that is a lie on your part.
loveofphysics 7 months ago
@loveofphysics Don't disagree with you that her feelings are a fact not a matter of opinion but her idea he sexualized is her opinion and not a fact because she doesn't know what that guy had in mind. On top we only heard her version of the story. "A word for the wise, guys. Don't don't that" is for all men. Her later posting in her website and response to dawkins all attest to this fact. She thinks all women should share her feeling and ridiculed women like stef & stclairose who disagreed.
nonamechannel 7 months ago
lol they are calling it elevatorgate now.
endthedisease 7 months ago
My disgust with irrelevant personal 'stuff' (no matter the so-called 'morality') being allowed to negatively affect reputation/standing/career &or belief-structure really got fired up with the whole Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky debacle. Quite likely the most intelligent world leader ever, definitely the brightest star of recent decades, being brought down by something which had absolutely NOTHING to do with his superb capability to guide & lead this poor excuse for a country.
w0utube 7 months ago
A chair is a chair because we make it a chair.
A God is a God because we make them a God.
Stars doing horrible things become more important because WE make it important. Geonocide happens daily, Murder, rape, DD, etc.
But yet we take note of these events because WE make them big.
ProtoMario 7 months ago
Gold hit an all time high today. $1588 an Oz. Peace
cfini72 7 months ago
As much as I disagree with the way Dawkins raises his daughters: To run off with strange men met in elevators in foreign lands at 4:00 AM, I still admire the work the stupid, goddamn asshole did in the field of evolutionary biology.
GypsyMofakka 7 months ago
feminists hurt my butt
CarlChipSanders 7 months ago
Of course the salaciousness is shallow.
The first rule of marketing:
Don't sell the steak, sell the SIZZLE!
WetlandsRemediation 7 months ago
humans continue to disappoint me -A- All this drama over a male asking a female out for coffee...
PinkProgram 7 months ago
Not like this?? lol was he quoting "Switch" in the matrix?
esantipapa 7 months ago
wives obey your husbands! bible! like it or lump it
ncbookz 7 months ago
i like you :)
samelliotto 7 months ago
I'm just curious and want to understand
what makes a person an atheist, I'm a 25 year old caltech graduate with a PhD in theoretical Physics and I am not an atheist..because i have studied fluid mechanics and Thales-Einsteins "Spinoza's God" which tells us ENTROPY is HALF of the Universal Equation i.e theres such a thing as Reverse-Entropy
Is it because you think you only have 2 choices? Ignorant Christianity and or Logic and Reason? Ive got uploads that put both theories to rest :D
sn1pe352 7 months ago
A person who otherwise has bad ideas or engages in stupid behavior may from time to time say true and of great importance. This is beyond question.
But I see the other side of the debate as well. If we know someone who constantly engages in stupid behavior or very often makes pointless and absurd statements, THEN we can rationally assume that there is an underlying cause for this. In tiurn, we can reasonably expect future statements of said person to likely be stupid and absurd as well.
Silkrat 7 months ago
The message should not be "Men don't be a creep and listen to the women worries" but "Men, behave yourselves, and don't expect a yes at certain places and hours".
Or also: "Men , I really like to talk to you but do this in public where I have all my attention for you". That is it. More effective.
This will of course have zero effect on the bad guys, but at least the good guys are reinforced to stay a man, but also take this into account. They will happely do this.
obaeyens 7 months ago
It is also devastating to women since the good men have become to doubt themselves and I know many women. They need a stable anchor, not someone that is doubting himself if he is being creepy.
It should not be creepy when a man asks something, no matter what hour or where. They should expect this, and they already should have a standard answer: "No, thanks". And when he touches you you should have the standard reflex to kick in the... The creepy is is because you are not used to it any-more.
obaeyens 7 months ago
I was one of the good men long time ago that fell for this call not to be a bad guy. I actually did everything to prevent being a bad guy and not be a freak. I actually listened to al my female friends. And what was the result? I couldn't get a date, and the relationships was of short duration.
I know many other good men that are caught up into this trap and even now are still single. And they become even more creepy than before since they have no idea how to handle when there is a woman.
obaeyens 7 months ago
The big thing that I am surprised in all this discussion is that sceptical people don't realize that by actively calling for not being freaky and having to listen to the women's worries actually has a devastating effect in the long run on both men and women.
On Women because when you yell that men are freaky, you scare off other women that now gets reinforced that all men are bad.
On Men because the good guys will hesitate but the bad guys will just ignore it and do the same thing.
obaeyens 7 months ago
But you want us to care about your opinion? Aren't you special.
orth2081 7 months ago
The real issue that comes out of all this is the lack of rationality in general. Atheists are not somehow immune to suspension of rationality. Also, it's interesting that one would take pride in being an Atheist to begin with. It's like taking pride in not believing in Santa. The word, "atheist" only describes what someone is not, and even the word does not imply rationality. Almost everyone would like to see themselves as rational beings.
thementalenvironment 7 months ago
You are hot!
hcm9999 7 months ago
..pretty eyes
nautilis 7 months ago
so..watson got hit on in an elevator and dawkins pointed out that she was making a mountain out of a molehill..thats it..? shit people need to get a life.
dilute666 7 months ago
I wonder how this would have initially turned out in the elevator if it was a woman inviting her back to their hotel room for coffee.
squirreljester2 7 months ago
I commented on friendly atheist's blog „I am baffled by this line “Everyone is overreacting. All of you. (Yes, you too.)” since I am in the „Team I Don’t Give a S*it”.
Am I exagerating with my non-shit-giving. Should I be extreeme? Should I bomb somebody?
Seriously, I hate atheist drama.”
My honest opinion.
ZergAteu 7 months ago
@ZergAteu well don't contribute to it, idiot
you're only inflaming the fire, because people don't want to be bossed around by whiney little shitheads that can't hold their liquor "stop fighting, because i'm the boss" piss off, no one asked you
userono 7 months ago
@userono You are really ridiculous. I am almost sure you didn't read FA's article, that's why you didn't get it. And ease up on the name calling, it amplifies the comic effect, especially when you're clearly unaware of WHAT I am responding to.
ZergAteu 7 months ago
@ZergAteu lol, ok, you're the boss
userono 7 months ago
I dont consider dawkin to be a good debater at all, and im an atheist skeptic. He doesnt know very much about logical fallacies and he isnt good at pointing them out. He basicly focuses on how much damage religion causes instead of weather or not its true.
gulbirk 7 months ago
Comment removed
gulbirk 7 months ago
@PandyFackleresque: I think you are right! :-)
Adler36 7 months ago
I personally have the same opinion as Richard Dawkins, I'm atheist too. But that's of course only my opinion...
Adler36 7 months ago
Rebacca Watson is mixing up two things:
- 1e the sexual interaction between men and women and things people have to do to get acquanted with someone of the opposite sex, and
- 2e the equal rights they both sexes should have.
I think women in America have those rights now and ya a woman will be appreached by a man sometimes and as long he does not offend her and she can say: "No thanks", what is the problem? Or will Rebacca abolish the special interaction between the sexes?
JanMelet 7 months ago
It's not a a celebrity thing, she should apologise for being a fucktard and distance herself from the spastics. Nothing could hurt 'the cause' more than than the pigspunk she came out with.
Al1981X 7 months ago
They're both cunts, but at least Dawkins is a clever cunt.
Al1981X 7 months ago
@NASAvsPETE Exactly.
PandyFackleresque 7 months ago
@PandyFackleresque Equality matters, and 94% of all men are good men, that will never even think of violating a woman. We just walk around as ourselves, many not always being good at social situations. I come from Norway, which is a very nice place to live, and feminism in the equality-perspective is really great. We've come so far here, but feminism is not the same as equal rights, which is what we really should be pursuing. When feminism infringes on being treated equally, we should debate!
rhov233 7 months ago in playlist Drama #3 ElevatorGate
I admit that I have this problem, of judging what others say based on their personal views. For instance, I would be a lot less likely to support an opinion if the person were a neo-Nazi without determining if their own personal bias had influenced that opinion. Doesn't change the fact that said person might have a well thought out opinion though, but in such a case my reaction I think would be justified.
That's probably the best way to go about it.
hawanja 7 months ago
whoever that bitch was is fucking dumb. just because a guy tried to make a conversation doesnt mean he wants to fuck you
tombeals69 7 months ago
@tombeals69 Maybe the guy was gay?
CelestialWoodway 7 months ago
@CelestialWoodway
dont know if he was gay, but i have conversations with females i dont know all the time. just cuz im a guy doesnt mean i want to fuck everything that walks
tombeals69 7 months ago
I think you are right :)
infinummjb 7 months ago
Nobody’s perfect.
I am a nobody,
Therefore I must be perfect!
LOL
But seriously, the arguments against the individual rather than the idea are called argumentum ad hominem and should be ignored.
GreatGungHolio 7 months ago
Skepchik's sexist shit was getting to me before it hit the fan and no I don't respect people like that. I saw the video she did about how douches are bad and it was informative but some comments she made on that made me think that perhaps she isn't really worth paying attention to. Some of the stuff she said makes it sound like she can't deal with males and I'm a humanist so perhaps she is better off in a exclusive female feminist/atheist club.
anikinippon 7 months ago
I side with Dawkins. Our "liberated" society has in place civilized behavior as its norm, even in a lift, and paranoia as a treatable condition
If words may not be used for communicating with each other, then what does one use instead? Are we to be PC trappist monks?
Perhaps it DOES take feminism to make a chicken out of a feather...
beachcomber2008 7 months ago
Dawkins was clearly making a contrast between the relatively liberal west and conservative middle east. To say that he intended to trivilialise sexism in the west is presumptuous and irrational. Unless Dawkins specifically stated that people have no right to complain about sexism in the west then all his critics on this particular point are feminazis and need to stfu
This is coming from one of the rare people who actually agree that Watson was right in being pissed about the elevator incident
SupermarketsRevil 7 months ago
please tell why carl sagan was a misogynist? i highly doubt he was.
other than that some great points.
CircusOfBedlam 7 months ago
I think the point is peopel can say things good and bad, but we need to take them individually. This whoel things between these otherwise two good poepel and atehists is silly. I quite like both adn have enormous but not overwhelming respect for Ricahrd. Howevr i know I have said some thing that looking back later good have been said betetr adn think both peopel suffer from a case of speaking without tyhinking first.
meleder 7 months ago
Not referring to someone's personal life that's involved in the atheist community would be a bit hypocritical of the atheist community. The atheist community seems to always points out the things in religious people's personal life that contradict their religion. If she's putting her personal life out there ie telling all of her personal experiences about all these evil men she's came across that offer her coffee, I don't see any reason not to delve into the rest.
xXJADEXx7 7 months ago
Sagan was a misogynist? Then why was the hero in Contact a heroine?
lazyperfectionist1 7 months ago
Of course we'd all like a community that's based in reason and skepticism to resolve it's argument with -- oh, I don't know -- reason. But in the end, we also have to accept that we're the products of an evolutionary process and we are also beings that are driven by impulses that are frequently non-rational, even in our discussions and debates and in the structures of our organizations. We want leaders and heroes and maidens, myths and villains because those narrative concepts inform our lives.
prodprod 7 months ago
Did you come to that conclusion because he sent a letter to every member of the Explorer's Club telling them they should allow women in and they did? I think you are either terribly confused or just wrong.
adrenacrumb 7 months ago
Sagan was a misogynist? Where are you geting that from?
adrenacrumb 7 months ago
go hide again, this time a tad longer.. have a nice day..
Dewdaahman 7 months ago
kindof didnt say anything but prolong the topic
cjeffers101 7 months ago
...Someone makes a clumsy pass at you in an elevator? Why not broadcast it to the world and turn it into a woe-is-me-moment how about you just say “no thanks” and get over it? Also, her imposed wedding was a massive narcissistic moment for me, take an auditorium of people who are there for something else and impose a personal moment on them? How about Muse stops playing the songs at their next concert and throws an hour-long birthday party for the drummer?
Is it just me?
ArgusEyes 7 months ago