John Cage, "Aria," performed by Justin Friello

[SeybertGuy]

I'm sorry, but John Cage was full of it.

[EarleBrown]

@SeybertGuy Perhaps you should study his teachings and writing more.

[SeybertGuy]

@EarleBrown

I have actually. Two whole semesters dedicated to 21st century composers. ABout 1/2 was dedicated to John Cage. I understand what he was going for and trying to achieve, however, I believe there comes a time where artistry gets in the way of what is real and personal perception. However, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. This is just mine.

[EarleBrown]

@SeybertGuy I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. I just want to make sure I get this right. Are you saying that his compositions aren't a clear articulation of his philosophies?

[SeybertGuy]

@EarleBrown

No. Not at all. What I am saying is that it seemed he tried so hard to be innovative and different that he crossed boundaries that were not quantifiable. For instance, 4 min and 33 secs. That piece is bullcrap and everyone knows it. Thats not music, that is some dude using his power as an innovator. I will say this, John Cage was a great musical theorist and philosopher, but composer? I'm not so sure.

[EarleBrown]

@SeybertGuy You make a valid point. A large criticism of Cage's work is that he was more of a philosopher and not so much a great composer. However, if one thinks of 4'33" as more of an "aural exercise," the composition is no different than the work of many of the 20th centuries great composers who took it upon themselves to expand the listener's palate. Charles Ives has a work called "Study No. 2 for Ears, or, Aural and Mental Exercise!!!" and that was decades before Cage's work.

[EarleBrown]

@SeybertGuy Though the approach Cage took to reach the listener (or not reach the listener, Cage was very much interested in things he had never heard before, and 4'33" is perhaps the epitome of that interest) his goals were very much in line with others during that time period.

[EarleBrown]

@SeybertGuy I would say that Cage is very much a composer (a master in my opinion). "Bullcrap" should really only be used to describe a work that has no theoretical or philosophical backing. 4'33" was composed with a very specific intent.

[EarleBrown]

@SeybertGuy As for the charge that 4'33" isn't a piece of music, I will say this: Music is the organization of sounds. Cage organized the sounds of the environment into three movements of different lengths, and into an overall structure of a specified length, 4 minutes and 33 seconds. The sounds to be organized are indeterminate. However, this definition of music, upon which an innumerable amount of musicians and scholars agree, does not require one to specify what sounds are to be organized.

[SeybertGuy]

@EarleBrown

I cannot deny your claims or facts. They are true. He is clearly a huge instrumental factor in compositional development and history. My only plight with JCage is this: Taking radical philosophies and employing them into music. Love him or hate him, he is influential.

I have enjoyed our conversation.

[EarleBrown]

@SeybertGuy It is true what he was attempting to do was something radical and even I can admit that it didn't always result in a 'good' composition.

Good talking to you.

[flyingV1043]

He did not organize them, the environment did.

[EarleBrown]

@flyingV1043 I'm not sure what you mean. He did, in fact, organize the text, timbral assignments, and the relative pitch relationships.

[flyingV1043]

@EarleBrown For 4'33"? That is the piece I am speaking about.

[EarleBrown]

@flyingV1043 Okay. This is not a video for that piece. You must understand, however, that even though the sounds themselves are indeterminate, the organization of them was done by Cage within the construction of the three movements of 4'33". Cage defined the sounds as belonging to one of those three movements and each falls at a point within the brackets of those movements and at points within the realm of the piece as a whole, though the choice of those sounds was not made.

[flyingV1043]

@EarleBrown I am just responding to comments made about 4'33", I understand this is not a recording of it. I disagree with you though. I think that because of Cage's views on chance and his personal goal to become eradicate ego, the idea of him viewing 4'33" as an organizational composition (other than defining it's starting and ending points isn't likely) isn't very likely. He is not organizing sound, he is simply defining when to start and stop listening to the environment around us rather

[flyingV1043]

@EarleBrown than constructing a piece based controlled pitches and rhythms. 

[EarleBrown]

@flyingV1043 Determining start and stop points and defining sounds that occur between those points as being part of the piece is a form of organization. It's loose, very loose. But organization nonetheless.

[flyingV1043]

@EarleBrown It is organizing perception, not what you perceive.

[EarleBrown]

@flyingV1043 Cage wasn't interested in determining the sounds themselves. That does not mean, however, they aren't organized. Grouping sounds together within a time bracket is a form of organization. That's a fact. The term organization is misleading because it implies pattern/ repetition. We could, for any given performance. number the sounds in the order in which they occur. Those X number of sounds occur in an order determined during the performance of the piece and constitute its structure.

[flyingV1043]

@EarleBrown Is he really the one grouping them though or is it the environment that determines what goes on?

[EarleBrown]

@flyingV1043 Yes. He's grouping them simply by determining the boundaries of the movements and the composition as a whole, thereby separating the indeterminate sounds into sections. The environment determines the sounds. Like I said before, Cage was not interested in determining the sounds. He did, however, determine the timings of the movements, thereby separating (organizing) the sounds into sections and inside of the piece itself, discerning which sounds make up the piece and which do not.

[CORC1300]

it seems as if your performance of different pages is of different lengths ,,, as I remember, each page is supposed to be of equal duration

[EarleBrown]

@CORC1300 Cage's performance note from the score reads: "The material, when composed, was considered sufficient for a ten minute performance (page=30 seconds); however, a page may be performed in a longer or shorter time-period."

[glob85]

Pretty cool, but how do you think did Marlene Dietrich sing? Like a goat? And what about "dramatic", "folk" an "jazz"? Liked your "oriental" an "coloratura"!

What a composition-- a crazy piece of sheet ;-)

[EarleBrown]

@glob85 I'm left a little confused by your comment. Although the score lets the perform know the vocal choices first made by Cathy Berberian upon her first performance on the piece, any performer is instructed to choose teen new vocal styles for his or her performance. No where in my performance did I choose to sing like Marlene Dietrich, a goat, jazz-like, oriental, or like a coloratura. However, my choices may be similar to those styles. I guess I'm just wondering what you're asking, really.

[glob85]

@EarleBrown Really? I thought this introduction in the score is an instruction how to sing the piece and that the performer can choose, which kind of noises he or she does (the small black boxes in the score..). If I was wrong, I'm sorry.

[omarmiguel]

Great now schizophrenics are considered musicians!!

[EarleBrown]

@omarmiguel Might I refer you to my conversation with another YouTuber?

Check out my video "Melodies (five flutes version)"

[kentie1964]

nice

[pisipisable]

can you send me the full score?

nisanak@gmail.com

thanx

[geocham]

This really is a fab interpretation of the work. I'm doing it for my final recital soon, at Oxford University, I do hope they're prepared!

[EarleBrown]

Thank you very much. You should put your performance on YouTube as well.

[ebonybrownfotojunki]

Hey Justin! Ha! Any choral pleasure songs posted?

[EarleBrown]

To everyone who wanted a score: I found my copy of it, so please send your email addresses!

[jamesaellis]

can i give you my email adress for the score that wud be wonderful thanks!

[EarleBrown]

Sure.

[macmusikpro]

Anyone has this score. Full score? This is awesome !

[EarleBrown]

I have the full score to this, but not here at school with me this semester.

[macmusikpro]

Oh wow! Would it be possible for you to send me a copy? I love to see the score while listening to it. I can wait :)

[EarleBrown]

What's your email address?

[ahaili]

i saw the score for this. it's awesome! i've always wanted to hear a version.

[EarleBrown]

Have you seen the full score? Or just fragments of it?

[ahaili]

just a tiny bit, like maybe 10-12 of the words in our music textbook

[EarleBrown]

I'd be happy to send you a copy if I could have your email address. I'll email the score to you.