All the books written, all the classes taught, and all the discussion on socialism in America can be summed up into one statement. "If you rob Peter to pay Paul, you will have Pauls vote." That is socialism in America.
Piven kept driving at how "free market" systems destroyed countries through force of government... but what she didn't realize was that the very system of control she was criticizing was pure SOCIALISM. When businesses and governments collude, the governments always have invested interest in the businesses, and vice versa. That's classic socialist (state ownership of means of production).
Frances Fox Piven, in my opinion, shows herself to be a genuine Socialist hairball (and nutball). What a disgrace to academia & the human race she is.
There is no logic to Friedman's reasoning about Chile. His ideas helped create the economic policies that were implemented under the dictatorship of Pinochet. He wants to dance around the issue by stating that the people of Chile were more free under this military dictatorship (US allies) than the people in communist countries. He doesn't mention a specific case.
Jeeze, that dead carcass on her head is making her very angry.
This woman (someone may need to check for sure) personifies everything wrong with America today. She brainwashes children and actively works to destroy American civilization so we can have something similar the USSR; where people lived under totalitarianism for 70 years, and conguered and enslaved 1/3 of the world, and killed well over 100 million people. She cheers on race war and class riots. Someone killed the wrong beast.
@KingDingaLing090 She's right. So called "free-markets" do exist because of government intervention. We recently saw this with the bailouts. The case in Chile is significant. "Free-market reforms" were implemented via military force in Chile during the 70s. She does none of the things you accuse her of. She raises legitimate points as do all of the participants here do as well. And they listen to one another.
@USASecre Lol So if the government didnt intervene what would have happened? Natural selection.If the government didnt intervene there would be free markets. So get out of our face and let the market work. Get your greedy hands away. You can find some random market with political problems to make your point, while I can show you dozens of genocidal regimes that killed tens of millions of people under government controlled economies. Ever heard of Cloward & Piven? Educate yourself little dumpling
@KingDingaLing090 South Vietnam would be another example. The transnational corporations would not have done business there had the US intervened. All developing and highly developed nations have some form of government control in their economies. The US had a government control economy, especially in the automobile industry, public schools, the post office, the police, fire departments, etc. Our country does not allow the market complete control in these areas.
"Free to Choose" cut's off right after Friedman's rebuttal, I guess we truly aren't "free to choose" on Free to Choose. I have a problem with Friedman always lying about the economic power of Chile during this time. In fact, Chile's economic situation was absolute shit up until they set economic controls that went against Friedman's ideology. All one had to do in 1980 was bring economic facts about Chile to the table to destroy Friedman's credibility.
Boy this women is confusing free enterprise with crony capitalism. Is because she is dumb or is she purposely distorting the facts. I think its the latter.
One thing that puzzles me about statists is that everytime a private sector solution is proposed; human beings will apparently descend in mindless murder and anarchy. Dropping the bomb on Nagasaki alone has caused more misery and hardship than any private citizen has achieved. Hitler, Stalin, Pinochet, Pol Pot, Roosevelt, Churchill etc all caused more misery, deprivation and death than a lone anarchist.
Piven is the type of person who never creates anything or helps anybody. She's useless and she knows it. Ayn Rand described her type well. She just wants to "tear down the system", but all she has to replace it with is more slavery.
It should be mandatory to watch and read about Friedman a year in high school and a year in college. we cant keep churning out Che T-shirt wearing bums who worship marx and lenin, We need people to understand how capitalism works.
We need a new constitutional amendment. Much as the first amendment builds a wall of separation between religion and state, we need an amendment to build a wall of separation between business (or even the whole economy) and state. Only then will we have a true free enterprise system.
@Hayleyfire929 You're right in saying that we need to separate government and the economy, but the first amendment does not separate church and state. It prevents the government from establishing a religion. That is not separation of church and state because law makers can still factor in their beliefs when passing law. Jefferson wrote "a separation of church and state" in the 1800's. The first amendment was ratified in 1791.
Ya, regular TV isn't intellectual or like this anymore. Today we have snookie and the likes of those. This is why I have no TV for over a decade . . .
The only equality i seek is to have the equal ability to speak my words identically and as talented as Milton Friedman. In that prospective, life is not fair.
And 30 yrs later, after we have been giving out participation trophys and telling kids trying is good enough, we all get frustrated when someone mucks up a job and expects to get praise & pay for it because they tried. When will these brainless liberals ever learn? You can't guarantee equal outcomes because people have diff abilities and levels of motivation. If there is no motivation or reward to be exceptional nobody will strive to be exceptional.
Wow...a socialist woman is telling a free market economist that his theory is bust because it has never existed in idealized form anywhere in the world. Seriously??
Piven is so poorly behaved it's a wonder the moderator didn't ask her to leave. Interrupting, not letting opponents finish. I started cheering when Sowell finally interrupted her. This is the problem with cultural Marxists. "What you have to say is not important. The argument is already decided. No other viewpoints need to be heard: only the advocacy of state intervention in all things."
Piven is right. The "freedom" in "free markets" in practice is only "economic license," reinforcing the inequalities of the status quo and allowing those with access to capital more leverage. Remember that the Fed is private and unaccountable to citizenry, and it lends to banks who lend to those who they approve of. When those at the top can control more wealth, this dynamic is stronger. Other than that, Peter Jay pretty much sums up Friedman.
8:10 I think Ms. Piven was their just to attack Friedman on the Chile front. Today however, due to increased economic prosperity, people in Chile started questioning their ruler and they have since overthrown him and replaced him with a republic. Because of the introduction of freedom of the marketplace, political freedom was established. The introduction of Milton Friedman's Laissez Faire ideas to Chile in my reasoning started Chile down the road to a republic, making Piven's point invalid.
Chile had a republic and they elected Allende, who fell out of favor with Big $. Allende was opposed by the pro-capitalist status quo that had far more international power than his government could fend off, due to wanting to nationalize the copper and healthcare industries, redistributing land, and provide free milk. The Nixon admin started planning to remove Allende right after the election, the CIA funded a trucking strike, etc. How are those murdered by the Junta more free?
6:20. That is where Friedman takes over. He listens intently until that point. Then he rips them up. But in a classy way. Friedman has what the liberals never had and never will...... class.
Your argument is style over substance. "Rips them up" hardly! He's of the black/white cold war mindset. To use his analogy, he'd rather chop down a tall tree than trim it! The nature of platitudinal ideological arguments is such. He doesn't even dispute the fact that he's arguing for a hypothetical economic model that has never existed. His premise of capitalism as the primary mechanism of liberty is oversimplified because it's always contingent on military power.
@radicalsquare What argument? I didn't make an argument. I made an observation. But ok. 1. Style of substance: It is rich for you to suggest another person's argument is style over substance and follow that with "The nature of platitudinal ideological arguments is such" and then give no supporting argument to justify the your void punchline. 2. Trimming the trees: You must have missed the discussion. The question was one of equality of results vs equality of opportunity. (cont)
@radicalsquare And if equality of opportunity is there any case for "society" to help create equality of results. Friedman owns both of them on the issue. Essentially he says that a system that focuses on equality of opportunity will achieve more of both. This is because when people are economically free they are more free to pursue their own interests and values. And many are interested in the condition of others. (cont)
@radicalsquare Conversely when a society is forced to focus on the values of that society they are not allowed to purse their own values unless those values happen to be the ones held by "society". Now who gets to decide what everyone else in the society is going to value? 4. Hypothetical model: Again you missed the conversation. Piven says it is a hypothetical model and he clearly says that we are always dealing with a mix. And any look into Friedman's work supports that point.
francis fox pivens needs to be locked up and thrown in jail for the autrousities she and cloward have caused economically in newyork and what she did to the black community this woman is a marxist.
I think Friedman is the person that made me start thinking, rather than reading and spewing out what I had read as arguments. I have been surrounded by middle class leftists all my life, and although I know they have the best intentions, it seems to me that their thinking is more about being in line with rhetoric rather than considering the consequences of their thoughts.
When I started reading Friedman, Smith, Rand, Sowell, Mises, etc., I even lost a few friends.
Piven has been promoted as this genius from the left. She talks in circles and cannot match the intellectual level of Sowell, Friedman, or the common businessman working on the corner lot selling his calling cards and t-shirts. Piven is perpetuated not by intellect and truth but by an echo-chamber of Progressives.
can someone help me understand what Friedman is saying at the 6 minute mark?
relieving distress and doing something about inequality is different, what does he mean? What exactly is his justification of using negative income tax?
can someone explain this to me, a sincere question!
(he got stopped by the woman when trying to explain it through the forest and trees example, therefore i dun quite get it)
@freedomahc the negative income tax might serve a side purpose of reducing inequality, but that is not its goal. its goal is to help people ONLY in distress, or need. friedman is saying that government can help people in need, but the goal should never purely be to reduce the inequality between people. the negative income tax incentivizes people to get off welfare, which they would only take when they are in absolute need of it.
I wonder what would Thomas Sowell would say now about his comments at 3:00. I think the liberals won the argument back then, and they implemented social programs that have destroyed the black family and created a group of people who are dependant on government for their livelihood. I suspect most blacks today do support social programs as evidenced by their tend to vote Democrat.
@darwinkilledgod yea that's interesting, but the argument that the system is used to buy votes doesn't always line up with who is going to the polls. lots of the poor came out and voted in 08, but since the establishment of the welfare system as we know it the economic group that has the lowest rate of participation at the polls are the poor
Circles, she's talking in tornado's....really mumbo jumbo. can't get close to a handle on her logic. Milton's not saying its not a good ideal, he's just simply pointing out how it doesnt work when applied with human nature. Study the models of history. How many socialist countries are thriving now? how many communist?
@rgwynne100 That's leftist doctrine 101: obscure a lack of content with rhetoric. That sort of vague, winding, M.C. Escher logic is nothing but first class sophistry, but it rings so sweetly in the ears of the credulous liberal. They jerk off to this shit. But hey, who doesn't want to feel like an intellectual without actually having thought anything? Probably the same people who want to feel like productive members of society without actually having produced anything, right? lololololol
@rgwynne100 Also, there ARE successful socialist countries in the world, but don't let a liberal arts major cow you with some sophomoric comparison to the U.S. The successful socialist country will be small and monocultural. If everyone's the same, congratulations! Enjoy your collectivist state! But anyone whose mind is addled with manufactured prime-time opinions won't see how this is impossible in the U.S. If they DO, they usually blame racism for it. Happens all the time.
People like Piven will never understand, economic success cannot be mandated by government. If it could, communism would have triumphed over capitalism. Those who fail to learn from history...
@mikerowphone I would agree with you wholeheartedly if our population wasn't a rabble of morons, liable to be misled to believe anything.
That's the problem with pure democracy, you need an educated citizenry for it to be effective, and that's something America severely lacks in. To be honest, if every government had such a democracy, with an educated citizenship, we wouldn't have wars anymore because wars always seem to enacted and favored by the few rather than the many. Good idea, though
Milton and Sowell are some of the most brilliant economists of their time. Piven has and always will be a blight of Socialist buffoonery. That Brit is an idiot.
The USA has been following Friedman's advice for the last 30 years, and the USA is now the least equal nation in the entire industrialized world. Britain has been doing the same, and now the USA and the UK alternate in holding the title of least economic mobility. The only thing that is keeping the UK slightly more equal is its excellent NHS, their socialized healthcare. The NHS flies smack into the face of Friemdan's nonsensical projections.
@spartan2600 Lol, you think USA has been following Friedman's advice? How I wish that was true, the US is more socialist than you think, get your facts right before you speak mate.
In any case, so what if the income disparity is wider, when the absolute standard of living is rising for all classes of people? In your noble quest for equality, is it then OK for poor people to get poorer while the rich gets poorer by more? Because that would of course reduce inequality.
@yamahaU3 How is America Socialist "in more ways than I think".
America is the least Socialist Country out of ALL Western Countries. It is the only Country that hasn't figured out that Capitalism should not be anywhere near our citizen's healthcare. As you continue to see, we pay more for Healthcare than any other Country per capital, and hardly see the effects of it in our average life expectancy.
Income for the average American has actually decreased the last 30 years.
so nobody here questions the wisdom of the billionaires funding libertarian philosophy who say an economic system which produces inequality and makes the rich richer is the best system for the 97% who struggle financially?
if the US was a democracy and paid every worker an equal income, it would be $127,000 per year, making EVERYONE wealthy
$127k, equal pay for equal work, sounds like a much better deal 4 everyone
@WVMADMAN1 yeah who needs a society that works well for everyone when we can have u working the PR department at 75% less income making sure the billionaires live large
u r a sucker if u have been convinced that giving away 75% of ur income to the wealthy elite benefits u
if democracy replaced capitalism, everyone would be wealthy
@WVMADMAN1 and i stand firm in the belief that u r gullible and a sucker for thinking a system where u lose 75% of ur income to the wealthy class is a system working in ur best interests
@jjrglobal when u work in our current system where the avg worker earns $33k instead of a democratic system where you would earn $127k, you are losing 75% of ur income. that income that u r losing is concentrated at the top of income earners
@jjrglobal 97% of workers would get a pay increase. i dont know why u think they would work less after getting a pay increase. gdp would not drop.
but im sure the top 3% who stand to lose in such a system would try to convince u that it would.
i would say u r pretty gullible if they convinced u that the avg worker would be better off in our current system earning $33k than in a democratic system earning $127k
@seppsters yes sheeple, the self appointed guardian of the status quo thinks listening to ways to improve society, to make every worker wealthy, to fix most social problems, to give u a 400% increase in standard of living, is worthless.
what im advocating is to replace capitalism with democracy, not communism. so get ur terms correct.
communism is not possible. we do not have the technology to make that happen.
@jjrglobal the exact compensation plan would be approved by a national vote. u get equal pay for equal work
in a small % of jobs ur work intensity is directly correlated with output so u could earn more if u produce more than average
and some jobs r physically more difficult (construction, mining, production, farming, maintenance, repair and installation) and mentally more difficult (doctors, nurses, scientists, programmers, engineers) so u could pay them more as well. they make up 25% of jobs
Thats not what you said before, you said everyone would get $127K a year. I still have questions though you decided to do what all socialist do and change your words in the very next comment. You must read them and change your mind once you realize how stupid you sound.
So compensation is approved by a national vote per occupation and everyone in that occupation gets the same amount of money no matter what?
@jjrglobal "you decided to do what all socialist do and change your words in the very next comment. You must read them and change your mind once you realize how stupid you sound."
hopefully u realize how stupid u sound by suggesting that all the details of how a democratic economy would work was explained in a 500 character count utube comment box
@jjrglobal there r a lot of different ways u can come to a democratic consensus. proposals will be publicly debated. viable ones will be put to a vote. if a majority or plurality approves one, it will be put into practice.
i believe the public should vote directly on all major issues like income disposition or war.
studies show people will only vote for equal income with perhaps minor variations
If everyone is paid the same there is no incentive to excel or be even slightly better than the guy working next to you. In fact, it has the exact opposite effect. People will try and do less than the person working next to them if there is no incentive. This is why communism always fails miserably and always ends up with a dictator FORCING the population to work at the end of a gun barrel.Ask anyone that lived in Russia prior to 1988 and they'll tell you that your proposal is insane
@jjrglobal people will get unemployment benefits and will need to be a better employee so that they can get hired again.
companies will be managed by a management structure just like companies r today. managers will fire employees who don't perform just like in companies today.
@kajmobile Hardly! Our work is worth what free people will pay. Think what you're saying: who would study for 10 years to work hard as a doctor, if the Hot Topic girl gets equal pay? The economy would truly crash as people stopped doing productive work and learning skills.
Without the Free Market incentive to study and work hard, the State has to compel it; you ARE advocating Communism, know it or not.
FYI, Crony Capitalism also kills freedom. It isn't Capitalism & should be fought.
communism is a system without money. i believe we need money to ration goods and services and to reward people for working
communism is a system without govt. i believe we need a govt with rules 4 people to follow. we need an impartial judicial system that protects people's rights, life, property and a mechanism for making collective decisions
and communism is a system without class. that i do agree with. class/caste belongs in the trash bin of history.
@lapsatus "Our work is worth what free people will pay"
It is inhumane to treat people like commodities, like heads of cattle or bushels of wheat, where your entire standard of living and means of survival depends on your ability to sell yourself in an open market.
If you work as hard as everyone else, you should get the same pay as everyone else.
but i agree the value of what u produce is what people r willing to pay. so if people dont buy what u produce, u will be forced to get another job
@lapsatus "who would study for 10 years to work hard as a doctor, if the Hot Topic girl gets equal pay?"
not everyone can be the hot pocket girl, those job openings will be few. some spokespeople today make far, far more than doctors but yet we still manage to have doctors today
some people prefer to spend their day saving lives and studying medicine than working a factory floor. those people will become doctors. u also will get paid to go to school so long schooling doesnt mean less income
@lapsatus "Without the Free Market incentive to study and work hard, the State has to compel it"
the incentive to study and work hard is pride in work, passion for ur profession and a job that pays $127k, enough to make u wealthy. if u dont work hard, u will be fired and have nothing
.
"Crony Capitalism also kills freedom"
the lack of $ kills freedom. and the lack of $ exists for the 50 million poor people in US and limited freedom exists for the 97% who make less than the $127k avg US income
@kajmobile If only life was as simple as you proclaim it to be. Truth be told, their are multiple cultures within America that pull different folks in different directions. With the advent of reality tv and the progressive superficiality of America, you are beginning to see kids become more and more "stupid".
Too much freedom destroys society because it lets toxic ideas find rapport within our young population. Some ideas shouldn't be free to propagate.
"Too much freedom destroys society...Some ideas shouldn't be free to propagate."
then u would feel right at home in the many oppressive regimes thruout the world. imprisoning people because of the ideas they have goes against everything that is decent in this world
@kajmobile You say they are repressive, and they are, but who's to say that America doesn't attack ideas itself. Certain notions, for example, like polygamy and freedom to sell drugs are outlawed. And it's not only government, certain ideas are viciously attacked using American culture as well. Ideas like Communism and Fascism and Socialism.
Society can only function when we all move in sync with one another. Ideas and actions that divide society are ideas that will destruct a society.
@Seedofwinter u r confused. america bans certain ACTIONS, not ideas. And debating against an idea is not the same as banning it!
and the purpose of society is 2 use science to provide everyone with the equal power to act, speak or think without coercion or restraint; to pursue whatever lifestyle they want; to pursue whatever goals they want; and to pursue their own happiness, however they define it
the purpose is not to move in lockstep with its dear leader
@kajmobile America does ban ideas, it's just that you don't notice it because the banning isn't done via laws, but rather through society.
Why don't you propagate Communism? Why not Fascism? Why does America react to Socialism like a cat reacts to water? It's because those ideas are banned from ever being integrated into American society. It may not be a law, but you WILL get punished socially if you even tried to push them
Not lockstep with a leader, lockstep with rationality.
@kajmobile It doesn't matter how the banning is done, as long as you see that it's done. America DOES ban ideas, they just ban ideas VIA the culture. I never said that the government should ban ideas via law. I realize how dangerous such a proposition is.
Look what happens when stupid ideas are allowed to propagate. Look at the middle East Jews and Muslims which have been at each others throats for years.
Toxic ideas are eliminated with a supreme education, NOT through the government.
@kajmobile It doesn't matter how the banning is done, as long as you see that it's done. America DOES ban ideas, they just ban ideas VIA the culture. I never said that the government should ban ideas via law. I realize how dangerous such a proposition is.
Look what happens when stupid ideas are allowed to propagate. Look at the middle East Jews and Muslims which have been at each others throats for years.
Toxic ideas are eliminated with a supreme education, NOT through the government.
@Seedofwinter the solution to all of society's problems is to replace capitalism (a system of privileges, class and propaganda) with democracy (a system of freedom, equality and science)
the solution IS NOT to replace capitalism with totalitarianism!! have u opened a newspaper at any point during the 20th century?
the solution is equal freedom for everyone, not freedom just for the richest 2% or freedom just for the dear leader
@kajmobile You mean Democracy as in the people directly vote on legislation and have no representatives? You can't have a system of pure Democracy because some people don't know the issues as fluently as others. The consequence of everybody being able to vote on everything is to chaotic and liable to digress Society than progress it. Socrates argues the vices of such a system more prettily than I can.
Don't me dishonest. I don't argue for a police state. What I argue for is common sense.
@Seedofwinter a democracy is a society organized on the principles of Freedom, Equality and Science
it means everyone has the Freedom to pursue whatever lifestyle they want, everyone has an Equal power to build that lifestyle and the purpose of Science is to make those lifestyles possible
a democracy only means u have equal say over SUBJECTIVE questions of how to live or what goals to pursue. that DOESNT require expertise in anything
democracy doesnt mean u vote on how how to build bridges
@lapsatus democracy is about equality of power: equal votes, equal treatment under the law, equal pay 4 equal work.
i believe a system that pays everyone $127k can work.
but u could make the case that some jobs r physically or mentally harder, so r not equal to easy jobs and deserve higher pay
if u paid $120k to easy jobs, u could pay $230k to the 13 million hard jobs in science, engineering, upper management, medicine, construction, mining and farming which is incentive 4 doing harder jobs
@kajmobile "people will get unemployment benefits and will need to be a better employee so that they can get hired again." Hows that any different than today
"companies will be managed by a management structure just like companies r today. managers will fire employees who don't perform just like in companies today."
Why would anyone want to assume the responsibility of being a manager if the pay is the same as everyone he manages? You've never managed a company have you?
@jjrglobal people who r creative, have lots of business ideas, like having responsibility and want power to make decisions will become managers. if that is not for u, u would choose a different profession.
i have owned several businesses including an electronics manufacturing company. so i have a lot of experience as a manager
management is not for everyone but neither is working as a low level employee
Wow! Not only does this guy use a single lab result to draw unbelievable nonsensical conclusions about real world business, he also is clueless about what caused the current financial crisis and how to get out of it.
@jjrglobal the federal reserve study was based on real world tests done throughout the world. and the psychology behind motivation is based on decades of peer reviewed research. and this study and research coincides with what we see in thousands of real world businesses like wikipedia and google which he mentions in the talk.
1st off I trust the Federal Reserve about as much as I trust Obama, which is zero. Are you saying the US labor force should be run like Wikipedia? Its one thing for a person to share a tidbit of information for free and quite another to think they would do so for forty hours a week every week without incentives. Google pays there employees well, I dont know why you think they don't. What you are suggesting is Marxism plain and simple
@jjrglobal im saying the labor force should all get paid $127k, not paid nothing like wikipedia. wikipedia is an example that u dont need profits to generate excellent products. and google's 10% time is an example of how u will get innovation out of employees by just giving them time to produce it, u dont need to pay them any extra.
marxism is a criticism of capitalism not an economic system.
im advocating a democratic economic system, not marxism
Frances Fox Piven is the sort of hateful and obnoxious person who inhabits our colleges and universitiy faculties. She's the perfect example of the type of intellectual who is educated beyond her intelligence. She is the type who has infected our humanities department with such nonsense. What a fool this woman is. And this fellow Jay is just the type of British Intellectual who has destroyed Great Britain. I've know these types of person my whole life and I'm sick of them.
What's the point of me being equal with everybody else if I'm not free???
themeettrees 3 days ago
@themeettrees Ask John Rawls; he basically created that horrible idea.
Attritive 1 day ago
i kinda wanna punch that lady in the face. idk why. i just do
laker10591 3 days ago
All the books written, all the classes taught, and all the discussion on socialism in America can be summed up into one statement. "If you rob Peter to pay Paul, you will have Pauls vote." That is socialism in America.
brk49er 5 days ago
Friedman and Sowell owned the egalitarian socialist, Piven, big time. You can see the Cloward -Piven strategy in effect under the Obama monstrosity.
cyanide585 1 week ago
Friedman holding his own in this
dubified89 1 week ago
Today: Chile has the highest Human Development rating in South America.
mites7 1 week ago
Piven kept driving at how "free market" systems destroyed countries through force of government... but what she didn't realize was that the very system of control she was criticizing was pure SOCIALISM. When businesses and governments collude, the governments always have invested interest in the businesses, and vice versa. That's classic socialist (state ownership of means of production).
diskpanic 1 week ago
(continued) So, in effect, she was criticizing the VERY social economic system that she espouses... stupid Socialists.
diskpanic 1 week ago
I feel like these guys enjoy talking over peoples heads
ryancsmith2003 2 weeks ago
Frances Fox Piven, in my opinion, shows herself to be a genuine Socialist hairball (and nutball). What a disgrace to academia & the human race she is.
henrycate 2 weeks ago
There is no logic to Friedman's reasoning about Chile. His ideas helped create the economic policies that were implemented under the dictatorship of Pinochet. He wants to dance around the issue by stating that the people of Chile were more free under this military dictatorship (US allies) than the people in communist countries. He doesn't mention a specific case.
USASecretHistory 2 weeks ago
so awesome.
rintintinification 2 weeks ago
Jeeze, that dead carcass on her head is making her very angry.
This woman (someone may need to check for sure) personifies everything wrong with America today. She brainwashes children and actively works to destroy American civilization so we can have something similar the USSR; where people lived under totalitarianism for 70 years, and conguered and enslaved 1/3 of the world, and killed well over 100 million people. She cheers on race war and class riots. Someone killed the wrong beast.
KingDingaLing090 3 weeks ago 2
@KingDingaLing090 She's right. So called "free-markets" do exist because of government intervention. We recently saw this with the bailouts. The case in Chile is significant. "Free-market reforms" were implemented via military force in Chile during the 70s. She does none of the things you accuse her of. She raises legitimate points as do all of the participants here do as well. And they listen to one another.
USASecretHistory 2 weeks ago
@USASecre Lol So if the government didnt intervene what would have happened? Natural selection.If the government didnt intervene there would be free markets. So get out of our face and let the market work. Get your greedy hands away. You can find some random market with political problems to make your point, while I can show you dozens of genocidal regimes that killed tens of millions of people under government controlled economies. Ever heard of Cloward & Piven? Educate yourself little dumpling
KingDingaLing090 2 weeks ago
@KingDingaLing090 South Vietnam would be another example. The transnational corporations would not have done business there had the US intervened. All developing and highly developed nations have some form of government control in their economies. The US had a government control economy, especially in the automobile industry, public schools, the post office, the police, fire departments, etc. Our country does not allow the market complete control in these areas.
USASecretHistory 2 weeks ago
OMG I LOVE this stuff! Great genius arguments!
darkstack 3 weeks ago in playlist Favorite videos
7:25 7:25 7:25 - This is why Friedman doesn't apply in 2012... We are in this era.
LongBow1600 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"Free to Choose" cut's off right after Friedman's rebuttal, I guess we truly aren't "free to choose" on Free to Choose. I have a problem with Friedman always lying about the economic power of Chile during this time. In fact, Chile's economic situation was absolute shit up until they set economic controls that went against Friedman's ideology. All one had to do in 1980 was bring economic facts about Chile to the table to destroy Friedman's credibility.
THEINVENTABLETHREAT 3 weeks ago
Comment removed
THEINVENTABLETHREAT 3 weeks ago
Boy this women is confusing free enterprise with crony capitalism. Is because she is dumb or is she purposely distorting the facts. I think its the latter.
Lurker1979 3 weeks ago 4
One thing that puzzles me about statists is that everytime a private sector solution is proposed; human beings will apparently descend in mindless murder and anarchy. Dropping the bomb on Nagasaki alone has caused more misery and hardship than any private citizen has achieved. Hitler, Stalin, Pinochet, Pol Pot, Roosevelt, Churchill etc all caused more misery, deprivation and death than a lone anarchist.
Bastiat90 1 month ago 3
Piven is the type of person who never creates anything or helps anybody. She's useless and she knows it. Ayn Rand described her type well. She just wants to "tear down the system", but all she has to replace it with is more slavery.
zivjax 1 month ago
@zivjax Ayn Rand condones the stealing of people's home to be given to other people, who are said to be more chosen. Credibility? I think not.
LongBow1600 3 weeks ago
@LongBow1600 Really? Where did you pull that complete and utter BS from? Rand would never have agreed to that.
zivjax 3 weeks ago
Frances Piven tore him a new one at around 7:00.
pcc68 1 month ago
@pcc68friedman tore her a new one
jerryleeharrison32 3 weeks ago
It must be dificult for Friedman to have to talk to such idiots.
EODtchwon 1 month ago
As the only british person here huff puff puff hurumph I sound smart because I have a lovely accent but I am really a dipshit.
EODtchwon 1 month ago 2
It should be mandatory to watch and read about Friedman a year in high school and a year in college. we cant keep churning out Che T-shirt wearing bums who worship marx and lenin, We need people to understand how capitalism works.
CWScott24 1 month ago
Friedman was a genius.
Kaniela6759 1 month ago 4
Who is that man with the big ear ring in his left ear?
dbarber970 1 month ago
We need a new constitutional amendment. Much as the first amendment builds a wall of separation between religion and state, we need an amendment to build a wall of separation between business (or even the whole economy) and state. Only then will we have a true free enterprise system.
Hayleyfire929 1 month ago
@Hayleyfire929 You're right in saying that we need to separate government and the economy, but the first amendment does not separate church and state. It prevents the government from establishing a religion. That is not separation of church and state because law makers can still factor in their beliefs when passing law. Jefferson wrote "a separation of church and state" in the 1800's. The first amendment was ratified in 1791.
rb3264 1 month ago
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horsie111 1 month ago
Ya, regular TV isn't intellectual or like this anymore. Today we have snookie and the likes of those. This is why I have no TV for over a decade . . .
mmagar5754 1 month ago
The only equality i seek is to have the equal ability to speak my words identically and as talented as Milton Friedman. In that prospective, life is not fair.
buddacafe 1 month ago 20
And 30 yrs later, after we have been giving out participation trophys and telling kids trying is good enough, we all get frustrated when someone mucks up a job and expects to get praise & pay for it because they tried. When will these brainless liberals ever learn? You can't guarantee equal outcomes because people have diff abilities and levels of motivation. If there is no motivation or reward to be exceptional nobody will strive to be exceptional.
shananagans5 1 month ago
Facts are facts! You cannot use LOGIC with a LIBERAL! Their brain cells are dead in those regions.
MemoryTechnologies 1 month ago 2
Piven is one hateful and angry wretch...
MrPaevo 1 month ago
Not even the laudy taudy language of the socialist left could defer Mr. Friedman. Very good post.
strke4ce 1 month ago
Where has Pivens version of utopia, aka redistribution ever worked historically? : \
ladylordess 1 month ago
@ladylordess Most on the left would point to the scandinavian countries, but there is no perfect system, to be sure.
AliceNchainz011 1 month ago
I wish Milton Friedman had talked a bit as he occasionally has about Hong Kong and Singapore to areas that approach a "more pure" capitalist system
53foodserver 1 month ago
...without a free economy"
53foodserver 1 month ago
0:50
Licence: given permission to do something illegal.
Cleric775 1 month ago
8:10
China.
(sound) Money walks and talks.
Cleric775 1 month ago
John Holmes should have blown a load on this loser Obama supporting bitches face.
TerrierToughGuy 1 month ago
Piven has proven she is evil.
BillyThorton68 2 months ago
Wow...a socialist woman is telling a free market economist that his theory is bust because it has never existed in idealized form anywhere in the world. Seriously??
m8cct 2 months ago
I wish Milton Friedman were still alive.
mattilyons 2 months ago
PETER JAY OWNS FRIEDMAN! OUCH!
diogotomediogo 2 months ago in playlist Mais vídeos de FreeToChooseNetwork
Piven is so poorly behaved it's a wonder the moderator didn't ask her to leave. Interrupting, not letting opponents finish. I started cheering when Sowell finally interrupted her. This is the problem with cultural Marxists. "What you have to say is not important. The argument is already decided. No other viewpoints need to be heard: only the advocacy of state intervention in all things."
nofalltoofar 2 months ago
Piven is right. The "freedom" in "free markets" in practice is only "economic license," reinforcing the inequalities of the status quo and allowing those with access to capital more leverage. Remember that the Fed is private and unaccountable to citizenry, and it lends to banks who lend to those who they approve of. When those at the top can control more wealth, this dynamic is stronger. Other than that, Peter Jay pretty much sums up Friedman.
radicalsquare 2 months ago
8:10 I think Ms. Piven was their just to attack Friedman on the Chile front. Today however, due to increased economic prosperity, people in Chile started questioning their ruler and they have since overthrown him and replaced him with a republic. Because of the introduction of freedom of the marketplace, political freedom was established. The introduction of Milton Friedman's Laissez Faire ideas to Chile in my reasoning started Chile down the road to a republic, making Piven's point invalid.
ndalum75 2 months ago
@ndalum75
Chile had a republic and they elected Allende, who fell out of favor with Big $. Allende was opposed by the pro-capitalist status quo that had far more international power than his government could fend off, due to wanting to nationalize the copper and healthcare industries, redistributing land, and provide free milk. The Nixon admin started planning to remove Allende right after the election, the CIA funded a trucking strike, etc. How are those murdered by the Junta more free?
radicalsquare 2 months ago
6:20. That is where Friedman takes over. He listens intently until that point. Then he rips them up. But in a classy way. Friedman has what the liberals never had and never will...... class.
mixmastermeeks 2 months ago
@mixmastermeeks
Your argument is style over substance. "Rips them up" hardly! He's of the black/white cold war mindset. To use his analogy, he'd rather chop down a tall tree than trim it! The nature of platitudinal ideological arguments is such. He doesn't even dispute the fact that he's arguing for a hypothetical economic model that has never existed. His premise of capitalism as the primary mechanism of liberty is oversimplified because it's always contingent on military power.
radicalsquare 2 months ago
@radicalsquare What argument? I didn't make an argument. I made an observation. But ok. 1. Style of substance: It is rich for you to suggest another person's argument is style over substance and follow that with "The nature of platitudinal ideological arguments is such" and then give no supporting argument to justify the your void punchline. 2. Trimming the trees: You must have missed the discussion. The question was one of equality of results vs equality of opportunity. (cont)
mixmastermeeks 2 months ago
@radicalsquare And if equality of opportunity is there any case for "society" to help create equality of results. Friedman owns both of them on the issue. Essentially he says that a system that focuses on equality of opportunity will achieve more of both. This is because when people are economically free they are more free to pursue their own interests and values. And many are interested in the condition of others. (cont)
mixmastermeeks 2 months ago
@radicalsquare Conversely when a society is forced to focus on the values of that society they are not allowed to purse their own values unless those values happen to be the ones held by "society". Now who gets to decide what everyone else in the society is going to value? 4. Hypothetical model: Again you missed the conversation. Piven says it is a hypothetical model and he clearly says that we are always dealing with a mix. And any look into Friedman's work supports that point.
mixmastermeeks 2 months ago
francis fox pivens needs to be locked up and thrown in jail for the autrousities she and cloward have caused economically in newyork and what she did to the black community this woman is a marxist.
erijones1ify 2 months ago
I think Friedman is the person that made me start thinking, rather than reading and spewing out what I had read as arguments. I have been surrounded by middle class leftists all my life, and although I know they have the best intentions, it seems to me that their thinking is more about being in line with rhetoric rather than considering the consequences of their thoughts.
When I started reading Friedman, Smith, Rand, Sowell, Mises, etc., I even lost a few friends.
astroboomboy 2 months ago
Piven has been promoted as this genius from the left. She talks in circles and cannot match the intellectual level of Sowell, Friedman, or the common businessman working on the corner lot selling his calling cards and t-shirts. Piven is perpetuated not by intellect and truth but by an echo-chamber of Progressives.
p.s. Thomas Sowell is the man.
THERepublic1971 2 months ago
Does anyone know where i can find this debate in its entirety, or give me the links to put it together as a whole? Thank you so much in advance.
ericNsarah2010 2 months ago
@ericNsarah2010
Hi,
Look for "Free to Choose - Part 5 : Created Equal".
LibertyProjectIL 2 months ago
@LibertyProjectIL Thanks a lot!
ericNsarah2010 2 months ago
Friedman just opened a class and appointed those two as his aides.
Andarovin 2 months ago
Milton Friedman was right in 1980, he's right today, and he'll be right in 2180.
hookalakah 3 months ago
She really doesn't understand.
PrivateAckbar 3 months ago
you end up with a and b imposing taxes on c to help d. looool
sniped101 3 months ago 2
Friiedman ownage-man I miss him, what a great mind-sharp right up to the end.
LCT29 3 months ago 6
clone friedman and conquer the world!
SnatchAx 3 months ago
Frances Fox Piven: one of President Obama's ideological mentors. Yeah. We are well and truly screwed.
localcrew 3 months ago 21
@localcrew dont forget George Soros another Mr. Obama's ideological mentors
AzNickPatriot 2 weeks ago
MILTON FRIEDMAN OWNS THEM ALL, in particular this stupid woman with that ugly Russian hat :-) :-)
joaquinveyron 3 months ago
can someone help me understand what Friedman is saying at the 6 minute mark?
relieving distress and doing something about inequality is different, what does he mean? What exactly is his justification of using negative income tax?
can someone explain this to me, a sincere question!
(he got stopped by the woman when trying to explain it through the forest and trees example, therefore i dun quite get it)
freedomahc 3 months ago
@freedomahc the negative income tax might serve a side purpose of reducing inequality, but that is not its goal. its goal is to help people ONLY in distress, or need. friedman is saying that government can help people in need, but the goal should never purely be to reduce the inequality between people. the negative income tax incentivizes people to get off welfare, which they would only take when they are in absolute need of it.
lakersjohnson3 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Allow me to organize Piven's argument at the end into the following syllogism:
1. Free-enterpise systems have never existed to any significant degree.
2. Free-enterprise systems use government to oppress people in third-world nations.
3. Therefore, these are free-enterpise systems.
Did I miss something?
Zimnyification 3 months ago
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Zimnyification 3 months ago
Friedman puts Piven on the verge of tears by the end of this video.
Zimnyification 3 months ago
1:47
"I think Mr. Friedman is wrong..."
Friedman: D'awww, aren't you cute, face.
Zimnyification 3 months ago
where can the entire series be found? how much does it cost?
Welsh77 3 months ago 2
@Welsh77 A quick search reveals that the entire series appears to all be on YouTube. First video's ID is D3N2sNnGwa4.
ClarkWise 3 months ago
Milton and Sowell pwn.
Rockyfan10060 3 months ago
I wonder what would Thomas Sowell would say now about his comments at 3:00. I think the liberals won the argument back then, and they implemented social programs that have destroyed the black family and created a group of people who are dependant on government for their livelihood. I suspect most blacks today do support social programs as evidenced by their tend to vote Democrat.
darwinkilledgod 3 months ago
@darwinkilledgod yea that's interesting, but the argument that the system is used to buy votes doesn't always line up with who is going to the polls. lots of the poor came out and voted in 08, but since the establishment of the welfare system as we know it the economic group that has the lowest rate of participation at the polls are the poor
Welsh77 3 months ago
Circles, she's talking in tornado's....really mumbo jumbo. can't get close to a handle on her logic. Milton's not saying its not a good ideal, he's just simply pointing out how it doesnt work when applied with human nature. Study the models of history. How many socialist countries are thriving now? how many communist?
rgwynne100 3 months ago
@rgwynne100 That's leftist doctrine 101: obscure a lack of content with rhetoric. That sort of vague, winding, M.C. Escher logic is nothing but first class sophistry, but it rings so sweetly in the ears of the credulous liberal. They jerk off to this shit. But hey, who doesn't want to feel like an intellectual without actually having thought anything? Probably the same people who want to feel like productive members of society without actually having produced anything, right? lololololol
ndzapruder 3 months ago
@rgwynne100 Also, there ARE successful socialist countries in the world, but don't let a liberal arts major cow you with some sophomoric comparison to the U.S. The successful socialist country will be small and monocultural. If everyone's the same, congratulations! Enjoy your collectivist state! But anyone whose mind is addled with manufactured prime-time opinions won't see how this is impossible in the U.S. If they DO, they usually blame racism for it. Happens all the time.
ndzapruder 3 months ago
Piven should have been arrested and deported.
U2canread 3 months ago
This man...is a goddamn genius.
MovieCompoundBoat 3 months ago
That Peter guy seems to me to be milton's only nemesis.
tatsumakisempyukaku 4 months ago
Frances is free to choose the nearest exit.
Vansit84 4 months ago
People like Piven will never understand, economic success cannot be mandated by government. If it could, communism would have triumphed over capitalism. Those who fail to learn from history...
Radley1982 4 months ago
Piven was owned by Milton.
theframerswereright 4 months ago
Piven= owned by Milton.
theframerswereright 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Liberals only know how to filibuster and interrupt. They love to hear themselves talk.
R0773N 4 months ago
Piven is exactly what is wrong with our education system. How does someone like this get to teach the youth? it is our fault for allowing it.
ladylordess 4 months ago 3
That woman has an ugly russian hat.
NathanJosephCole 4 months ago 37
Piven talked in circles and proved Friedman's point. People become oppressed by the market when government is involved.
dc202009 4 months ago 51
@dc202009 Well said,
asleeperj 1 month ago
@mikerowphone I would agree with you wholeheartedly if our population wasn't a rabble of morons, liable to be misled to believe anything.
That's the problem with pure democracy, you need an educated citizenry for it to be effective, and that's something America severely lacks in. To be honest, if every government had such a democracy, with an educated citizenship, we wouldn't have wars anymore because wars always seem to enacted and favored by the few rather than the many. Good idea, though
Seedofwinter 4 months ago
We need to revive Friedman...
rockpwnsu 5 months ago
Frances MSNBC Piven is a MORON.
UCSDEngineerDoctor 5 months ago
Milton and Sowell are some of the most brilliant economists of their time. Piven has and always will be a blight of Socialist buffoonery. That Brit is an idiot.
conservideo 5 months ago
The USA has been following Friedman's advice for the last 30 years, and the USA is now the least equal nation in the entire industrialized world. Britain has been doing the same, and now the USA and the UK alternate in holding the title of least economic mobility. The only thing that is keeping the UK slightly more equal is its excellent NHS, their socialized healthcare. The NHS flies smack into the face of Friemdan's nonsensical projections.
spartan2600 5 months ago
@spartan2600 Lol, you think USA has been following Friedman's advice? How I wish that was true, the US is more socialist than you think, get your facts right before you speak mate.
In any case, so what if the income disparity is wider, when the absolute standard of living is rising for all classes of people? In your noble quest for equality, is it then OK for poor people to get poorer while the rich gets poorer by more? Because that would of course reduce inequality.
yamahaU3 5 months ago
@yamahaU3 How is America Socialist "in more ways than I think".
America is the least Socialist Country out of ALL Western Countries. It is the only Country that hasn't figured out that Capitalism should not be anywhere near our citizen's healthcare. As you continue to see, we pay more for Healthcare than any other Country per capital, and hardly see the effects of it in our average life expectancy.
Income for the average American has actually decreased the last 30 years.
Seedofwinter 5 months ago
This is like one of those scenes in a Bruce Lee movie where 30 people are attacking Lee and he's throwing them around the room by himself.
Califacience 5 months ago
does the kool aid here come in different flavors?
so nobody here questions the wisdom of the billionaires funding libertarian philosophy who say an economic system which produces inequality and makes the rich richer is the best system for the 97% who struggle financially?
if the US was a democracy and paid every worker an equal income, it would be $127,000 per year, making EVERYONE wealthy
$127k, equal pay for equal work, sounds like a much better deal 4 everyone
look up the word "gullible"
kajmobile 6 months ago
@kajmobile
WOW!!!
Now thats stupid.
WVMADMAN1 6 months ago
@WVMADMAN1 yeah who needs a society that works well for everyone when we can have u working the PR department at 75% less income making sure the billionaires live large
u r a sucker if u have been convinced that giving away 75% of ur income to the wealthy elite benefits u
if democracy replaced capitalism, everyone would be wealthy
kajmobile 6 months ago
@kajmobile
Ive considered your arguments and firmly stand by my original statment.
WVMADMAN1 6 months ago
@WVMADMAN1 so u stand firmly in the belief that the world works better by giving away 75% of ur income to rich people? lol
kajmobile 6 months ago
@kajmobile
I stand firmly in the belief that ''ur'' stupid.
WVMADMAN1 6 months ago
@WVMADMAN1 and i stand firm in the belief that u r gullible and a sucker for thinking a system where u lose 75% of ur income to the wealthy class is a system working in ur best interests
kajmobile 6 months ago
@kajmobile
and thats just stupid.
WVMADMAN1 6 months ago
@kajmobile
How do you lose 75% of your income to the wealthy class? You got a gambling problem or something?
jjrglobal 5 months ago
@jjrglobal when u work in our current system where the avg worker earns $33k instead of a democratic system where you would earn $127k, you are losing 75% of ur income. that income that u r losing is concentrated at the top of income earners
kajmobile 5 months ago
@kajmobile
But what could you buy with your $127K, considering that the nations GDP would fall to shit?
jjrglobal 5 months ago
@jjrglobal 97% of workers would get a pay increase. i dont know why u think they would work less after getting a pay increase. gdp would not drop.
but im sure the top 3% who stand to lose in such a system would try to convince u that it would.
i would say u r pretty gullible if they convinced u that the avg worker would be better off in our current system earning $33k than in a democratic system earning $127k
kajmobile 5 months ago
@kajmobile
And everyone would make the same amount no matter what right???
jjrglobal 5 months ago
@jjrglobal
Don't even bother replying to a commie, it's worthless.
seppsters 5 months ago
@seppsters yes sheeple, the self appointed guardian of the status quo thinks listening to ways to improve society, to make every worker wealthy, to fix most social problems, to give u a 400% increase in standard of living, is worthless.
what im advocating is to replace capitalism with democracy, not communism. so get ur terms correct.
communism is not possible. we do not have the technology to make that happen.
kajmobile 5 months ago
@kajmobile
I bet you don't know what democracy, communism, socialism or capitalism even are.
seppsters 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@seppsters "I bet you don't know what democracy, communism, socialism or capitalism even are."
i would be more than happy to take u up on that bet
kajmobile 5 months ago
@jjrglobal the exact compensation plan would be approved by a national vote. u get equal pay for equal work
in a small % of jobs ur work intensity is directly correlated with output so u could earn more if u produce more than average
and some jobs r physically more difficult (construction, mining, production, farming, maintenance, repair and installation) and mentally more difficult (doctors, nurses, scientists, programmers, engineers) so u could pay them more as well. they make up 25% of jobs
kajmobile 5 months ago
@kajmobile
Thats not what you said before, you said everyone would get $127K a year. I still have questions though you decided to do what all socialist do and change your words in the very next comment. You must read them and change your mind once you realize how stupid you sound.
So compensation is approved by a national vote per occupation and everyone in that occupation gets the same amount of money no matter what?
jjrglobal 5 months ago
@jjrglobal "you decided to do what all socialist do and change your words in the very next comment. You must read them and change your mind once you realize how stupid you sound."
hopefully u realize how stupid u sound by suggesting that all the details of how a democratic economy would work was explained in a 500 character count utube comment box
kajmobile 5 months ago
@jjrglobal there r a lot of different ways u can come to a democratic consensus. proposals will be publicly debated. viable ones will be put to a vote. if a majority or plurality approves one, it will be put into practice.
i believe the public should vote directly on all major issues like income disposition or war.
studies show people will only vote for equal income with perhaps minor variations
kajmobile 5 months ago
@kajmobile
If everyone is paid the same there is no incentive to excel or be even slightly better than the guy working next to you. In fact, it has the exact opposite effect. People will try and do less than the person working next to them if there is no incentive. This is why communism always fails miserably and always ends up with a dictator FORCING the population to work at the end of a gun barrel.Ask anyone that lived in Russia prior to 1988 and they'll tell you that your proposal is insane
jjrglobal 5 months ago
@jjrglobal pay in soviet russia was not equal.
if u dont do the required work u will get fired. the vast majority of jobs r flat salary with cost of living increases, not pay based on production
the science of incentives is well understood and flat salaries work best, not pay for performance. watch?v=rrkrvAUbU9Y
paying everyone $127k per year will provide greater incentive than our current system does
kajmobile 5 months ago
@kajmobile
What about the people that get fired, you going to let them starve? Who's going to fire them if everyone is equally paid there would be no bosses?
jjrglobal 5 months ago
@jjrglobal people will get unemployment benefits and will need to be a better employee so that they can get hired again.
companies will be managed by a management structure just like companies r today. managers will fire employees who don't perform just like in companies today.
kajmobile 5 months ago
@kajmobile
Hows that any different than today?
jjrglobal 5 months ago
@jjrglobal the difference is that income is allocated equally. if income was allocated equally, every worker would be paid $127k per year.
equal pay for equal work. if u and i both work hard 40 hours per week, we both deserve the same pay.
kajmobile 5 months ago
@kajmobile Hardly! Our work is worth what free people will pay. Think what you're saying: who would study for 10 years to work hard as a doctor, if the Hot Topic girl gets equal pay? The economy would truly crash as people stopped doing productive work and learning skills.
Without the Free Market incentive to study and work hard, the State has to compel it; you ARE advocating Communism, know it or not.
FYI, Crony Capitalism also kills freedom. It isn't Capitalism & should be fought.
lapsatus 5 months ago
@lapsatus im not advocating communism
communism is a system without money. i believe we need money to ration goods and services and to reward people for working
communism is a system without govt. i believe we need a govt with rules 4 people to follow. we need an impartial judicial system that protects people's rights, life, property and a mechanism for making collective decisions
and communism is a system without class. that i do agree with. class/caste belongs in the trash bin of history.
kajmobile 5 months ago
@lapsatus "Our work is worth what free people will pay"
It is inhumane to treat people like commodities, like heads of cattle or bushels of wheat, where your entire standard of living and means of survival depends on your ability to sell yourself in an open market.
If you work as hard as everyone else, you should get the same pay as everyone else.
but i agree the value of what u produce is what people r willing to pay. so if people dont buy what u produce, u will be forced to get another job
kajmobile 5 months ago
@lapsatus "who would study for 10 years to work hard as a doctor, if the Hot Topic girl gets equal pay?"
not everyone can be the hot pocket girl, those job openings will be few. some spokespeople today make far, far more than doctors but yet we still manage to have doctors today
some people prefer to spend their day saving lives and studying medicine than working a factory floor. those people will become doctors. u also will get paid to go to school so long schooling doesnt mean less income
kajmobile 5 months ago
@lapsatus "Without the Free Market incentive to study and work hard, the State has to compel it"
the incentive to study and work hard is pride in work, passion for ur profession and a job that pays $127k, enough to make u wealthy. if u dont work hard, u will be fired and have nothing
.
"Crony Capitalism also kills freedom"
the lack of $ kills freedom. and the lack of $ exists for the 50 million poor people in US and limited freedom exists for the 97% who make less than the $127k avg US income
kajmobile 5 months ago
@kajmobile If only life was as simple as you proclaim it to be. Truth be told, their are multiple cultures within America that pull different folks in different directions. With the advent of reality tv and the progressive superficiality of America, you are beginning to see kids become more and more "stupid".
Too much freedom destroys society because it lets toxic ideas find rapport within our young population. Some ideas shouldn't be free to propagate.
Seedofwinter 5 months ago
@Seedofwinter i never claimed life was simple
"Too much freedom destroys society...Some ideas shouldn't be free to propagate."
then u would feel right at home in the many oppressive regimes thruout the world. imprisoning people because of the ideas they have goes against everything that is decent in this world
kajmobile 5 months ago
@kajmobile You say they are repressive, and they are, but who's to say that America doesn't attack ideas itself. Certain notions, for example, like polygamy and freedom to sell drugs are outlawed. And it's not only government, certain ideas are viciously attacked using American culture as well. Ideas like Communism and Fascism and Socialism.
Society can only function when we all move in sync with one another. Ideas and actions that divide society are ideas that will destruct a society.
Seedofwinter 5 months ago
@Seedofwinter u r confused. america bans certain ACTIONS, not ideas. And debating against an idea is not the same as banning it!
and the purpose of society is 2 use science to provide everyone with the equal power to act, speak or think without coercion or restraint; to pursue whatever lifestyle they want; to pursue whatever goals they want; and to pursue their own happiness, however they define it
the purpose is not to move in lockstep with its dear leader
kajmobile 5 months ago
@kajmobile America does ban ideas, it's just that you don't notice it because the banning isn't done via laws, but rather through society.
Why don't you propagate Communism? Why not Fascism? Why does America react to Socialism like a cat reacts to water? It's because those ideas are banned from ever being integrated into American society. It may not be a law, but you WILL get punished socially if you even tried to push them
Not lockstep with a leader, lockstep with rationality.
Seedofwinter 5 months ago
@Seedofwinter there is a difference between banning ideas (which america does NOT do) and making ideas unpopular.
communism, socialism and fascism r unpopular. but none of them r banned.
so what ideology do u want to force all of america to live by?
kajmobile 5 months ago
@kajmobile It doesn't matter how the banning is done, as long as you see that it's done. America DOES ban ideas, they just ban ideas VIA the culture. I never said that the government should ban ideas via law. I realize how dangerous such a proposition is.
Look what happens when stupid ideas are allowed to propagate. Look at the middle East Jews and Muslims which have been at each others throats for years.
Toxic ideas are eliminated with a supreme education, NOT through the government.
Seedofwinter 5 months ago
@kajmobile It doesn't matter how the banning is done, as long as you see that it's done. America DOES ban ideas, they just ban ideas VIA the culture. I never said that the government should ban ideas via law. I realize how dangerous such a proposition is.
Look what happens when stupid ideas are allowed to propagate. Look at the middle East Jews and Muslims which have been at each others throats for years.
Toxic ideas are eliminated with a supreme education, NOT through the government.
Seedofwinter 5 months ago
@Seedofwinter the solution to all of society's problems is to replace capitalism (a system of privileges, class and propaganda) with democracy (a system of freedom, equality and science)
the solution IS NOT to replace capitalism with totalitarianism!! have u opened a newspaper at any point during the 20th century?
the solution is equal freedom for everyone, not freedom just for the richest 2% or freedom just for the dear leader
kajmobile 5 months ago
@kajmobile You mean Democracy as in the people directly vote on legislation and have no representatives? You can't have a system of pure Democracy because some people don't know the issues as fluently as others. The consequence of everybody being able to vote on everything is to chaotic and liable to digress Society than progress it. Socrates argues the vices of such a system more prettily than I can.
Don't me dishonest. I don't argue for a police state. What I argue for is common sense.
Seedofwinter 5 months ago
@Seedofwinter a democracy is a society organized on the principles of Freedom, Equality and Science
it means everyone has the Freedom to pursue whatever lifestyle they want, everyone has an Equal power to build that lifestyle and the purpose of Science is to make those lifestyles possible
a democracy only means u have equal say over SUBJECTIVE questions of how to live or what goals to pursue. that DOESNT require expertise in anything
democracy doesnt mean u vote on how how to build bridges
kajmobile 5 months ago
@Seedofwinter democracy is based on the equal right to the freedom to act, speak, and think without coercion or restraint.
so u have the right to live how u want so long as u dont violate that same right in others
it is NOT mob rule. socrates was killed by a mob. just because the mob voted doesnt make it a democracy
in a democracy with equality, u cannot vote to kill another person because that would violate their equal democratic right to live
kajmobile 5 months ago
@kajmobile You need to take an honest look at the definitions of capitalism and democracy! You have the meanings wrong.
skidancin 3 months ago
@lapsatus democracy is about equality of power: equal votes, equal treatment under the law, equal pay 4 equal work.
i believe a system that pays everyone $127k can work.
but u could make the case that some jobs r physically or mentally harder, so r not equal to easy jobs and deserve higher pay
if u paid $120k to easy jobs, u could pay $230k to the 13 million hard jobs in science, engineering, upper management, medicine, construction, mining and farming which is incentive 4 doing harder jobs
kajmobile 5 months ago
@kajmobile If a Country REALLY wants to evolve scientifically quicker, that would reign at the peak of the list to do it.
One day society is going to realize that wealth gaps cause social disruptions.
Seedofwinter 5 months ago
@kajmobile "people will get unemployment benefits and will need to be a better employee so that they can get hired again." Hows that any different than today
"companies will be managed by a management structure just like companies r today. managers will fire employees who don't perform just like in companies today."
Why would anyone want to assume the responsibility of being a manager if the pay is the same as everyone he manages? You've never managed a company have you?
jjrglobal 5 months ago
@jjrglobal people who r creative, have lots of business ideas, like having responsibility and want power to make decisions will become managers. if that is not for u, u would choose a different profession.
i have owned several businesses including an electronics manufacturing company. so i have a lot of experience as a manager
management is not for everyone but neither is working as a low level employee
kajmobile 5 months ago
@kajmobile
Wow! Not only does this guy use a single lab result to draw unbelievable nonsensical conclusions about real world business, he also is clueless about what caused the current financial crisis and how to get out of it.
jjrglobal 5 months ago
@jjrglobal the federal reserve study was based on real world tests done throughout the world. and the psychology behind motivation is based on decades of peer reviewed research. and this study and research coincides with what we see in thousands of real world businesses like wikipedia and google which he mentions in the talk.
kajmobile 5 months ago
@kajmobile
1st off I trust the Federal Reserve about as much as I trust Obama, which is zero. Are you saying the US labor force should be run like Wikipedia? Its one thing for a person to share a tidbit of information for free and quite another to think they would do so for forty hours a week every week without incentives. Google pays there employees well, I dont know why you think they don't. What you are suggesting is Marxism plain and simple
jjrglobal 5 months ago
@jjrglobal im saying the labor force should all get paid $127k, not paid nothing like wikipedia. wikipedia is an example that u dont need profits to generate excellent products. and google's 10% time is an example of how u will get innovation out of employees by just giving them time to produce it, u dont need to pay them any extra.
marxism is a criticism of capitalism not an economic system.
im advocating a democratic economic system, not marxism
kajmobile 5 months ago
Frances Fox Piven is the sort of hateful and obnoxious person who inhabits our colleges and universitiy faculties. She's the perfect example of the type of intellectual who is educated beyond her intelligence. She is the type who has infected our humanities department with such nonsense. What a fool this woman is. And this fellow Jay is just the type of British Intellectual who has destroyed Great Britain. I've know these types of person my whole life and I'm sick of them.
juscurious 6 months ago 45