Do Numbers Validate a Ministry, Church or Movement "of God"?

[sandycorgi]

This is a breath of fresh air, and here in Britain churches, unfortunately,are following this Willow Creek "Pragmatism".

I find too that 2 Cor 8 Verses 13-15 with its teaching about how money is to be used ( that there may be a financial equality amongst you ), is totally ignored with pastors creaming off nice salaries while the poor remain poor.

The whole thing is just sick.

I don't feel like attending church anymore, its all of man.

Keep up the good work though

[edwardpf123]

Amen brother. In Jn.6:66, we find Christ turning away many with the truth.

[ubetterknow2]

amazing! I've been teaching this for years but people seem to brush the truth off.Money has become many minister's god, and they result to methods, formulas & hidden agendas.people luv fame,reconition & the church is not exempt! the problem is you cannot warn a pastor with 30,000 mem, because he feels God validates whatever he says,because of the size of his church

[1Cor2two]

praise God and you are right on. I've heard that response countless times. " but look how many people Rick Warren has touched.." That 60 Minutes feature on Joel Osteen was very telling too. People walked up to him saying "You saved my life". What's wrong with this picture?

[bat5mello]

Numbers don't justify a ministry, but Jesus DID speak to MULTITUDES. Ministries are justified by RESULTS.

[1Cor2two]

So the end justifies the means? I could pack a church too if I used sexual content and worldly methods to entice people.

[bat5mello]

If lives AREN'T BEING CHANGED, that's a than you're not getting results. Jesus had followers because of His ability to get RESULTS.

[1Cor2two]

The seeker friendly gospel does not worry about changing lives. It's about getting people in the church but they are not challenged about their sins.

[bat5mello]

Psalm 51:10

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Romans 12:2

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Sounds like changing lives to me...

[1Cor2two]

The scriptures you quote are good. but you need to study more about pragmatism and read up on the "purpose driven church"(rick warren's book). It's all about marketing and numbers at any cost.

[bat5mello]

So, your saying that a with a lot of members is only trying to pack seats? That sounds like a very uneducated assumption to me. How can anyone assume whats actually going on in a different city, in different congregation in which one has never been a visitor, let alone a member?

[1Cor2two]

I'm talking about an organization. It's called the Willow Creek Association. Go to their website and do some research. it's all about surveys and gearing the services to accomodate the unbelievers. As for Christ centered mega churches, I'm all for them. Times Square Church is my favorite and it's a mega church. But they preach the Word of God without compromise.

[dallen2345]

Because I've been in those churches. And all they care about is packing seats. Their results are judged by numbers not how many lives are changed but how many people attend. And I got news for you Hillsong is just like all this mess. We've got two friends who just came back from there and there looded up with this seeker sensitive nonsense. Everytime they preach growth not but not spiritual growth just growth in numbers.

[1Cor2two]

"Jesus had followers because of His ability to get RESULTS."

Do you think a method is the key?

[1Cor2two]

by the way, did you see the latest results from a poll Bill Hybels took at his church?

The sheep are starving listening to his watered down 'seeker friendly' messages! what do you think about those results? Look it up. keyword search "bill hybels" and "admits mistake".

[grammastola]

I disagree that ministries are justified by results. Consider Jeremiah, for example. How many converts is he recorded as having produced? NONE! Yet he was absolutely faithful in proclaiming God's Word.

Or Noah. He was a "preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), yet apparently produced few (if any) converts. Yet God honored him. Why? Because he proclaimed the Word faithfully.

[daafith]

Indeed. Check my video response.

[SarahSLH]

Good points, God doesn't see things as the world does. Well said.