Canadian Health Care Exposed! Part 2

[erindrake2010]

Go Chaoili and Deigh! That's what the people want and need is freedom and free marketsnot government socialised life.

[sarah1122335]

what about all the people that just never got treated(cause it was unaffordable) or did but oh you know just lost everything in exchange, stuff like homes ect. No big deal=)

oh and if the government dared to suggest TAKING AWAY social health care they would be done for like done!!!!

[erindrake2010]

@sarah1122335 ist off there are not very many people in AMerica who go without healthcare period. Almost all people here who have no money have medicaid/medipass/medicare. So your boo story is a flat out lie. Second there are experimental treatments that are not covered but that is true everywhere including Canada. The system of insurance or private pay for those who are not poor is broken, but those who can afford care don't need or want socialized medicine.

[33andahalf]

Canada DOES NOT spent the most per capita/all are insured/ don't wait for urgent procedures/no one loses their homes/rated higher than US due to # uninsured. In the US you don't get in the door without $ - fact! I was a health care professional in both countries for 40 yrs. This clip is BS. Any waits & costs here are due mismanagement, not the system. Excuse me wyhile I trip over bodies on my way to the mailbox.

[canadastreetmedia]

CANADA Spends the most per person and is ranked obo # 22 or 32 ? in the world.

The Clinic Docters have to Mcpatient the services to make there Mortgages,

Hospitals service is good,but minimalized as its usualy busy at emergency

Public Health is basic AND You still need work coverage etc... for extended services or you have to PAY Direct.

It used to be a lot better and more inclusive.

EMPLOYERS Save a lot of Money...

New CANADIANS are covered so its an IMMIGRATION SELLER For sure !

[dustinbia323]

This video does not speak to the canadian systems as a whole - seems one sided - horrible story just not accurate to the general beliefs of MOST canadians...

[dustinbia323]

Ryder,

I know lots of Candians living in America - ask them what they like better - all will say CANADA

The only ignorant thing here is the blind lies and manipulation by the American media on coverage of Canadian health care.

Canadians have to get insurance to travel to America and lots are terrified of the US system due to the horror stories about fighting with doctors and the insurance companies

And I guess we just forgot about private health care because WE found something better

[dustinbia323]

I am a Canadian - the canadian system is stable - we have had it since 1948.

WE love it!

Don't believe this crap!

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

From the 2009 9th Annual Report Card on Canada's Health Care System conducted by Ipsos Reid Public Affairs, 67% of the residents of Canada graded the overall quality of their healthcare system as an "A" or "B". This is up 4% from 2005. Only 7% of residents graded the overall qualtiy with an "F". Those giving the system an "A" grade continued to show an upward trend in 2009 increasing 10 percentage points in the last three years.

[RyderSpearmann]

The latest from The Canadian Press google search:

"Overhauling health-care system tops agenda at annual meeting of Canada's doctors"

"The incoming president of the Canadian Medical Association says this country's health-care system is sick... "

"We all agree that the system is imploding, we all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize," Doing said in an interview with The Canadian Press.

Socialized medicine can not be sustained. Period. Only a matter of time.

[RyderSpearmann]

Latest news from Canada's official annual survey:

Only just over half of the general population think that canadians are receiving quality care.

For 10 years, the majority of Canadians think that their system needs "A complete rebuilding" or some "Major Repairs".

Shockingly, nearly 50% of Canadians support the idea that health professionals be *required* to work in specific geographical reasons.

Tellingly, over 2/3rds want action to recruit doctors *back* from the US!!!

[RyderSpearmann]

Sorry, that should read: "specific geographical regions."

Ronald Reagan predicted this exact outcome in the cycle of decay of socialized medicine.

A most brilliant man. Apparently.

I bet not a single Canadian predicted this.

[RyderSpearmann]

I am thankful to KNWTHEFACTS76 who, without intending to, has shown me just how bad the Canadian system is.

Even though it provides "full coverage" for each and every Canadian, well over one in four say that the system is not working well, or not working *at all*.

That is almost 10 MILLION Canadians with that view!

Yet in America, only about 1 in 10 persons don't have insurance (many by choice... they simply don't want it)... yet they can get medical care anyway.

Think about it.

[RyderSpearmann]

I have a question....

If Canada's system is oh so good... then why is everyone in Canada calling for healthcare reform?

If the US goes from calls for healthcare reform... and all we do is end up like the Canadians, calling endlessly for "healthcare reform", then what is the point?

The US does not have a healthcare system, so when people tell you it's "broken" and it needs fixing, you know its a lie. They say "it" is broken because they want to create a system, one that they can control.

[RyderSpearmann]

Hey MORE information (you know, that stuff that is factually based that you hate because it makes you look stupid). On the VERY SAME RANKING that places America at 37th, Canada is only: 30th.

It gets better!

Canada ranked UP to 30th... not because of the medical care itself... no, no, no....

HALF of that stellar ranking of *30th* was due to how "fair" the systems was... financially and in distribution.

We know Canada is fair, which is half of the ranking...and it only made 30th?

[RyderSpearmann]

Actually, you are factually, provably incorrect.

the 37th ranking was for ALL Americans, not insured ones. Also, you don't know what the ranking was based on.... that was only the "OP" ranking, which is based on theoretical maximum performance (and is not a comparison against other nations directly). In the "OA" raninkg (overall attainment), the US was 15th in the world.

Of course, you had no idea about this. You don't know anything about the contents of the report.

[ndvuncle]

Sure, Americans never get dropped by healthcare providers. They're never denied access to expensive treatment. The insurance cos who give millions to lobbyists never get between a doctor and his patient. Oh no, we have the best system in the world, if 38th in the world is best. Hope the person who put this propaganda video up got paid in advance.

[RyderSpearmann]

No arrangement will give you all you want for a fixed price. It can't happen, so that's ok.

But to he honest, if you want to compare Canada to the US, you need to compare the Canadian system to ONLY THOSE IN THE US THAT HAVE PRIVATE INSURANCE.

Only in that way will you know how well the private insurane route stacks up against the Canadian route.

If you include people that are on government care... or pay out of pocket, or simply don't use any care... then that is apples to oranges.

[ndvuncle]

"But to he honest, if you want to compare Canada to the US, you need to compare the Canadian system to ONLY THOSE IN THE US THAT HAVE PRIVATE INSURANCE."

It's moot. Veterans and politicians have better care than those with private health care. A public option would resemble something more like what the VA and gov't offers here.

The WHO has already stacked up quality of private insurance paid health care. Canada ranks better and Farance ranks best. The US ranks 37th.

[RyderSpearmann]

I will educate you further.

In the WHO OA rankings (actual attainment), France and Canada were 6th and 7th, and the US was 15th.

Not such a big difference.... but wait, there's more! 50% of the ranking is based on "Financial Fairness" and "Health Distribution".... which automatically favor broad national systems.

America is purposefully set up along the lines of: "You get what you pay for".

You can imagine how that basic structure hurt the biased WHO "ranking".

Lesson over.

[7117teddy]

Yeah what I got from your lesson is that the quality and quantity of Healthcare in these countries is superior to that of Americas where only the rich get good healthcare. Thanks for the lesson

[RyderSpearmann]

No, the rich get the most excellent care ever in the history of mankind. Those that are not rich merely get very good care, and yes, the poor and homeless... not very good. It is important that being poor sucks. It provides incentive.

Just the facts.

[ndvuncle]

"...biased WHO "ranking".

Yes, I've learned that you're another wing nut conspiracy theorist "The WHO is out to make Amerika communisticals."

No sense debating with another propagandist like you. YouTube allows us to block nonsense. Ciao, fascist.

[RyderSpearmann]

Oh... poor child... are you sad when my vastly superior knowledge of the statistics *you* use, burst your bubble?

You poor child.

Go have a good cry.

The WHO rankings specifically put a high score on broad/flat care mechanisms...

What this means: Even if a country had "good to excellent" health services, the WHO would rank them LOWER than a nation where everyone had equally poor care.

"Socialism: The equal spreading of misery."

Next time, learn something about your own stats.

[7117teddy]

There are four times as many health care lobbyists in Washington as there are members of Congress.

Eighteen thousand people die each year because they are uninsured.

Thanks but i will pass!

[RyderSpearmann]

Tell me, how many live BECAUSE they ARE insured.

If you don't make this comparison... then you have said nothing at all.

[7117teddy]

Canadians have a higher life expectancy and lower infant mortality rate... what more do you need? What the hell does the number of people who live because they have insurance have anything to do with it?? The fact is you leave your healthcare in the hands of greedy insurance companies that make money by denying care. In some instances I may have to wait for non-life threatening surgery, but I would never be denied because of a "pre-existing condition" or because I fell behind in my payments.

[RyderSpearmann]

But *I* have a life expectancy greater than Canadians... because I pay for good healthcare.

What I need is more Americans that can *think*.

Healthcare is not the sole determinant of life expectancy.

When you control for three things: Obesity, Auto fatalities, and gun deaths...

AMERICANS LIVE LONGER.

Infant mortality? How about this... send a million mexican women into Canada each year, 8.5 months pregnant and see what that does to their statistics.

[RyderSpearmann]

And no... you have no idea how insurance companies work.

What they do is enter agreements with you to provide specific services in exchange for money. You get to choose the level of service you desire.

Next, insurance companies do NOT make money by denying care... in fact, if they denied ALL CARE, they would go bankrupt in a New York minute.

So much for your understanding of your own society. You are an American, right?

[RyderSpearmann]

But that is ONLY because government interferes with health services in the US private sector.

If the government was not involved, there would be no reason for lobbyists.

[7117teddy]

Oh completely deregulated... yeah thats working great for the economy isn't it?

[RyderSpearmann]

The US economy is one of the most heavily regulated things in human history. The economic woes we have now are specifically related to Government actions... especially the housing failures.

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were (and are) the heavy hitters in mortgages, and BOTH were CREATED by the Federal government

Both were TOLD by the government to invest in bad loans, in order to make sure more poor people "owned" homes.

Stupid

And these are the fools you want to control health care.

[7117teddy]

Here are some American stats for these guys:

Administrative costs account for 31 percent of all health care expenditures in the United States. The average overhead for U.S. private health insurers is 11.7 percent; for

Medicare, it is 3.6 percent; for Canadas national health insurance program, it is 1.3 percent.

Half of all bankruptcies are caused by medical bills. Three-quarters of those filings are people with health insurance.

[RyderSpearmann]

Right, but that cost is primarily because of government already (government is about 50% of our healthcare system in America, making everything very inefficient).

This is NOT a measurement of private care. Government has a HUGE hand in regulating private insurance.

[7117teddy]

I compared the cost of Canada's fully government funded healthcare system against the somewhat government funded American system. The point, which you horribly missed, is that the fully government funded Canadian system has a much lower overhead making it more efficient!! "Who wants Healthcare to be run like the post office... I do! You slap a 40 cent stamp on a letter in New York and it arrives in Miami the next day." Now that's efficient.

[RyderSpearmann]

Efficient loss of your freedom is not a very good idea.

Canada was also the place where they made it illegal to buy the services of a doctor.... no matter how badly you needed it.

There grew a very large business in Canada to take Canadians all over the world to get the care they wanted.

Go figure.

[ximegomez]

The quality of health care in Canada is based on the minimum common denominator. If we can't give it to everyone, no one should get it.

[ximegomez]

Now think about it this way, would you work as hard if you were paid at the beginning of the month BEFORE you show up for work?

The Canadian system CAN work, it needs changes, but in principle it can work. What we have now is a whole bunch of administrators trying to 'stay within the budget' that cut services, close ORs and claim there is a shortage of doctors and nurses, but at the same time are doing NOTHING to recruit them.

[ximegomez]

Now, seriously, in Canada we have a health care system that pays the administrators of the system BEFORE delivering services to the patients, based on a 'global budget'. Once they are paid, they are not accountable for delivering these services. They can hire their friends as supervisors for the supervisor of the supervisor. The system in Canada would work, if the government played the role of insurance company, where they would pay the hospitals, doctors, etc AFTER the services are rendered.

[RyderSpearmann]

LOL! what, like a FREE MARKET?

[7117teddy]

Yeah like when you pay up front for insurance that can be denied to you at a later date. LOL! free market greed at its finest!

[RyderSpearmann]

There are 10,000 different insurance plans... if you choose to use them.

If you never ask for a product or service that they don't provide... then no problem,

HOWEVER, if you want them to pay for something that their service already does not cover (like Canada not covering insulin pumps in BC), then of course you will be denied.

Are you the kind of person that checks into a hotel, calls the front desk, then is mad when you are denied free hookers?

THEY DON"T COME WITH THE ROOM.

[7117teddy]

Yeah Yeah we all know how insurance and the free market are supposed to work in theory. Just like we can trust hedge fund investors not to rip us off because if they did they would go out of business because thats how the free market is supposed to work. Pull your head out of your anus and take a deep breath. Greed needs to be regulated and Healthcare needs to be universal. Leave the Sheeple to the wolves and there will be lamb chops for dinner!

[RyderSpearmann]

Universal healthcare *IS GREED* on a MASSIVE SCALE.

It is from asswipes like you that want other people to work and give you what YOU WANT.

When we force other people to provide for ouw own quality of life, that is called SLAVERY. And slavery is about the worst form of greed ever imagined.

If you are getting things you did not provide for yourself (directly or through free trade), then you are a PARASITE.

[ximegomez]

Now, seriously, there is also a waiting list in funeral homes, so people live longer.

[ximegomez]

Canadians live three years more than Americans because Canada is colder.

[PsionNinja]

The goal of ANY free-market is to make profit. And any payouts to the insured is considered a profit-loss and the companies have agents who go out and find technical errors to deny care to the premium-paying customers.

If all these Canadians are dying waiting for care, then why do Canadians live on average 3 years longer than americans do?

This audio smacks of biased right-wing propaganda.

[RyderSpearmann]

In other words, the goal of ANY free market is to not consume more than it delivers, and in fact, to deliver more value than it consumes in delivering it.

Which is, of course, very healthy. The word is "sustainable".

Canadians live longer because there are far fewer auto deaths, far fewer murders, and Americans have bad lifestyles, and are getting rather obese.... causeing many serious illnesses, just to name a few. (all per capita). Once controlled for that, Americans live longer.

[imanerd36]

Go talk to a Canadian or someone from a country that has it. Really do it. Every Canadian I have talked to likes it.

[6TRUTH1]

If these guy's claims are correct that Canadians are tired of their system, why is it year after year that the Canadian Medical Association's annual survey on the CDN HealthCare system shows that the majority of Canadians rate their quality of the system as being either an "A"or"B".67% in their 2006survey.This just proves that these guys are dishonest and misinformed.The caller fails to mention that the private system in Quebec is limited to specfic procedures.The public system isn't going away.

[ritamalik]

Look, I live in Finland which has a similar but less rigid system than Canada but still it is not good. People here also claim that their healthcare is great! I have lived in many different countries including USA for more than a year and am originally not from Finland. The most Fins and I assume most of Canadians too have never lived anywhere else than their native land. So they have seen no better!

[6TRUTH1]

Aug08,the CDN Medical Association(CMA) released their 8th Annual Report on HealthCare in CAN. CMA hired Ipsos-Reid to survey Canadians on HealthCare. The survey is accurate within +-3.2% and shows that 2/3 of CDNs rate their quality of healthcare as Excellent(A) or Good(B). Only 7% said the system was Failing(F). This just clearly shows that the guys in this audio are dishonest when they say CDNs are tired of their system and are regurgitating baseless right wing talking points.

[dustinbia323]

Just so you know the CMA is a lobby group in canada - proponents of adding private health care to Canada. They do not serve the interests of Canadians. They build stats to bring down the public system. Check out their website - pretty obvious they are a lobby group

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

CMA is the equiv. of the AMA in US. Just as the AMA supports Obamas plan, CMA supports CANs healthcare system. To quote the CMA website the CMAs goal is to ensure the survival and robust health of Canada's medicare system — easily the country's most valued social program. To further this point google Doctors weigh private. To quote the article Members of the Canadian Medical Association have backed away from endorsing private competition to make the health-care system more efficient.

[ritamalik]

There is simply no comparison between the two systems. If one gets really sick here eventually will have to resort to paying from his own pocket for a private treatment after paying all those healthcare dues in the form of taxes. People end up paying twice. And most will never know how bad things actually are before they get truly sick. Most people are healthy and year in and year out don't need any medical care at all. So what do they know?!

[6TRUTH1]

I cant comment on the healthcare wherever you are but I do know that year after year CDNs continue to rate their quality of healthcare as being good. This is again a stark contrast from this audio. However, CDNs dont pay twice in Canada because private care is banned. Yet Canadians still rate the quality of their healthcare as being good. I dont pretend to know what goes on wherever you are but I do know that CDNs like their healthcare and that the guys in this audio are LYING.

[ritamalik]

US had by far the best care.Not perfect but much much higher in quality and accessibility.Now no system is perfect. But the guys in the this program are right.Free market is the right way to go because there will always be scarcity in the healthcare market so you can ration it either by prices or by waiting lists.If you ration by prices(market system)it gives an incentive for the providers and the market will grow and eventually prices will go down because of supply growing.

[6TRUTH1]

Free Market system is great if you can afford it.The reality is many Americans can't. In 2006 those uninsured in the US was 47M but was down to 46M in 2007 because 1M of those people fell below the poverty line and now get Medicaid(Public). If the free market system works so great why have healthcare costs doubled in the past 10 yrs? Why is it that 82% of Americans think the system needs a complete overhaul? If you can afford the US system, it's the best in the world. If you cant youre SOL.

[RyderSpearmann]

And that is OK. It is ok to NOT buy things you can't afford. Nothing wrong with that.. Next, you say "uninsured"... which is irrelevant... becuse the issue is not insurance... it is medical care.

insurance does not help you . Doctors do.

Ignore insurance figures... they don't mean much as it is only ONE method that SOME people use to secure medical services.

You are ignoring that.

And you 82% figure is totally false.

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

Insurance is the PRIMARY method of securing medical services when needed. The fact that one is uninsured puts them at risk and is a barrier to getting medical care, hence seeing a doctor. The 82% was a figure issued in study last year. If it is totally false why do both Democrats and Republicans believe reforms need to be made? It seemed pretty clear in that this was one the major issues in the last presidential campaign.

[RyderSpearmann]

It is a fact that the ides is so good that many people choose it. Their choice. Their life.

Or you can simply pay as you go. I know lots of people that do that.

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

So you are saying that the majority of the uninsured CHOOSE to do so? That's being disingenuous. The issue really surrounds people that are uninsured tend to use the most expense form of healthcare, EMERGENCY CARE and since they can't pay, everyone else ends up paying for it(ie.premiums). Therefore, there would be an overall cost savings to the system by insuring everyone.

[RyderSpearmann]

No, I am not saying that at all.

I am saying that the world does not need, clamor for, nor insist in insurance.

What they want is medical services.

And your 82% figure is made up. It is meaningless. You made a mistake and read it wrong... it is 18.2%, and you can't actually recall the study nor the actual question asked.

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

Medical services are great but if you can't afford them, they're meaningless. Thus the need for insurance.

Google 82% WANT OVERHAUL and take your pick. What did you say about me again, AND YOU 82% FIGURE IS TOTALLY FALSE or AND YOUR 82% FIGURE IS MADE UP. IT IS MEANINGLESS. It is certainly higher than the 1 in 4 minority figure you are hung up on. Since you are wrong and inaccurate on the claims you've made about me, it begs the question, how can anyone believe anything youve posted?

[RyderSpearmann]

We agree.... expensive medical services (not all are) can be covered by insurance schemes. It's a good idea. And 70% of insured Americans say that their insurance is good to excellent.

Like I thought, I checked your pathetic survey and discovered that it is just a propaganda piece... blatantly biased toward a bogus, socialist result.

It had LEADING questions containing a basic false premise.

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

The survey is validated by the 'fact' that healthcare was major issue in the last election in the US. John McCain, stated that both Dems and Republicans agree that reforms need to be made to the US Healthcare system. If Americans didn't want some sort of overhaul, both parties would not agree.

However, I go back to your orginal comment that my 82% FIGURE IS MADE UP. It is not made up at all; based on a survey. Again, with such a false accusation, how can anyone believe anything you've posted?

[RyderSpearmann]

McCain is a jerk.

That the Republicrats are together dragging the US into the gutter is nothing to be proud of.

What the US has is greed in its population, where free citizens are becoming comfortable in claiming a RIGHT to the work of other free citizens.

This comes primarily from the selfish political left.

Your biased survey: By the commonwealth foundation that supports the Obama plan. If that is the quality standard you employ, says quite a lot about you.

Try: Rasmussen com

[RyderSpearmann]

Sorry, that would be Rassumssenreports com.

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

If the survey was incorrect and driven by the LEFT(ie. Dems.) all the Republcns would need to do is say "there's no problem with the US system, no reforms needed" and then let the Dems hang themselves. Yet, Repubs. agree that reforms are needed and only differ as to how they are done. So the debate continues. Bottom line is if the US system was so great, it would be left alone and used by Repubs. to win in 2010 and 2012. What legislation do you see in CAN to change the CAN Health Act? NONE.

[RyderSpearmann]

ACtually, that is happening.

There is a revolt against Obamas healthcare BS in full swing.

Hillary Care bit the dust too.

But of course, since there is not healthcare system, then the republicans can't legitimately say that reforms are needed for it.

And no, the republicans do not aggreee with any such thing... they are carefully walking the fence, afraid of saying the wrong thing, which is weak of them, but there you have it.

And no, the system is not great, as there is no system

[ritamalik]

The public system which rations by waiting lists (public) is only OK in the beginning but it tends to get worse and worse because the providers have no incentive to grow the supply and the supply will stay more or less the same while the demographics (demand) will change and therefore it will require more and more rationing and less and less access.

[6TRUTH1]

The CMA survey supports the fact that CDNs are receiving quality healthcare.This number really hasnt changed much in 8 years.Your point about Universal healthcare getting worse may be applicable to wherever you are but here in CAN,that isnt the case. Considering that waittimes in CAN are down over the past 3 years,I would tend to think that more people are seeing improvements in the system.The incentive in Canada is for the Governing Party improve the system or they get voted out of office.

[RyderSpearmann]

Well, that does not take into acount the *fact* that Canadians simply choost to NOT seek care because of the wait times. It may only be a measure of a growing number of Canadians that simply stop subjecting themselves to the system, thus not showing up in the "wait" statistics.

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

If it is a "fact' that Canadians are not seeking care do to wait times then post your data and prove it. A "fact" can be back up as mine is from this annual survey conducted by an independent research firm. In fact most recently another survey conducted by an independent research firm stated that 70% of Canadains believe their health system is working well. Without the data to back it up your comment is worthless.

[RyderSpearmann]

Easy.

I personally know SEVERAL Canadians that forgo care, and I don't know all that many Canadians.

Unless you want to explain to me that I happen to know the only Canadians that forego care... then you are an idiot.

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

It is EASY to throw out anecdotes but they are not consistent with the opinions of the majority of CDNs. What is fact is the following survey consistent with many other surveys that state that CDNs believe the healthcare system is working well. Google harrisdecima and click on the second press release that states Most say healthcare system is working, Individuals that can't substantiate their arguments resort to throwing insults.

[RyderSpearmann]

That you can somehow explain that I just "happen" to know Canadians that have forgone care, making it an anecdote, is idoicy. The fact is, I should not know ANY.

Your link, far from helping you, hurts you.

It says: While every Canadian has "healthcare", OVER 1 out of every 4 says the system isn not working well.

ONE IN FOUR. That is MASSIVE

Are you REALLY going to say it's a great idea as long as 50.1 % have a favorable view? (a simple majority)

A Public plan must do far better.

[RyderSpearmann]

Note: in Quebec this 50% number is nearly upon you. Only 52% said the system worked well... and GUESS WHAT: that 50% has to be MOSTLY young people with almost NO EXPERIENCE with the system.

THEY WILL CHANGE THEIR VIEWS WHEN THEY USE THE SYSTEM.

And you MUST follow HISTORY. Has the slim majority in the polls today been a larger majority in the polls of the past?

If so then that means that you are LOSING GROUND.

It should take about 2 generations for public systems to start to fail.

[RyderSpearmann]

Let's look at this one final time...

From the link YOU PROVIDED, the poll shows that over NINE MILLION Canadians, that HAVE CARE (supposedly) say that the system is NOT WORKING WELL.

HOW THE HELL CAN YOU SUPPORT THE CANADIAN SYSTEM?

Did you know that only about 10% of Americans don't have medical insurance? a large chunk of them COULD IF THEY WISHED, but simply CHOOSE NOT TO.

Compare that to Canada where almost THREE TIMES THAT say the system is not working well.

INSANE.

[dustinbia323]

THIS COMMENT IS INSANE... ALL THE COMMENT FROM CANADA ARE ABOUT HOW GREAT THE SYSTEM IS... Take that into account when looking at you Anecdotal evedence. - this is not a lie - lies come from the media not average people - stop trying to find minor flaws in the system to prove your point - and just know that Canadians as a whole like our system - you dont want it fine -just dont quote inaccurate manipulations to prove that public systems cannot work.

even though they work arround the globe.

[RyderSpearmann]

Grow up. All I am doing is reporting Canadian polling data.

You are calling the Canadian people "insane".

Are you really goign to make me prove to you that not every person in Canada is as blind as you seem to be?

[dustinbia323]

No need for insults.

You are simply comparing how many people in canada have a grevance with the system to how many people do not have health care in the US. It is an unfair comparison. That is why I called your comment insane.

If you use stats please use them correctly.

[RyderSpearmann]

Wait... let me get this straight... "THIS COMMENT IS INSANE" on the one hand, now you say "No need for insults..."

make up your mind... which do you believe?

I know how to use stats AND reason far, far better than you.

I am not the one making the comparisons... I am simply doing the best possible analysis for those that have already MADE the comparison.

To the extent that the care in the two countries CAN be compared, I am well versed in doing so. You, on the other hand, have not.

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

I don't call 75% a simple majority. I would say it's a strong majority.The bottom line is you admit that you don't know many CDNs, which clearly labels your comments as anecdotal.

BTW 1in4 is a minority. Compared with 82% that want an overhaul in the US, the 1 is 4 minimal. I never said the CDN system was perfect as I don't believe there is a perfect system but the CDN system fairs better with its end users. Hence the agreement across Dems and Reps. that US Healthcare needs to be reformed.

[RyderSpearmann]

I did not ask how you define a simple majority. Learn to read.

The 82% figure is propaganda. I checked the study you cite, and it was just a phone survey of 1004 people that was not scientifically conducted, and had misleading questions (foremost, it forced respondants to accept the false premise that the US has a healthcare system).

Other surveys have found that only 6% of Americans rated their medical insurance as poor... 70% said it was "good to excellent", 23% said it was "fair".

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

You are talking about a simple majority and a simple majority is irrelevant to the discussion because 3 in 4 is a STRONG MAJORITY. Hence, according to the end users, the CDN system is working well.1000 people is the standard that is used to gauge the sentiments of populations. Saying the US doesn't have a healthcare system is just being disingenuous.

82% equals 252 million people. WOW. To use your words "That is MASSIVE".

[RyderSpearmann]

No.

If government proclaims to "have the solution for all Canadians" and then fails in the eyes of >25% of the population then that is massive failure.

When you drive through an intersection are you satisfied if only 1 out of 4 times you don't get into an accident?

When "the" solution is provided it better work well every time.

The US doesn't have a system: people get to make their own arrangements. That Americans acting individually are satisfied more than Canadians speaks volumes.

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

The government of Canada never proclaimed to have the solution for ALL CDNs. YOU DID. What CDNs are saying is that the system in CAN is a good system and 3 of 4 CDNs supports this. If you think there is a "perfect" system then you are living in a dream world. What is a MASSIVE failure is 82% of Amer. stating that the US system needs to be overhauled and supported by most if not all US politicians.

Can a US citizen get prescription drugs without a DR prescribing them? NO. Hence a system.

[RyderSpearmann]

Of courst they did, what kind of idiot are you?

The entire point of the canadian system has been to be *the* solution for EVERY canadian from its inception.... even to the extend of making private practice illegal!!!!

You are so lost its not even funny.

If it is not for every canadian... then who did they intentionally leave out of the plan? QUOTES FROM CANADIAN OFFICIALS ONLY, PLEASE.

(I can't wait)

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

Those that can't substantiate their arguements resort to throwing insults & it's not the first time for you. All that the CDN government said is that they abide by the CAN Health Act which states universal health care is the right of every resident of Canada. Health care is not going to be decided on wealth. Every res. will have access to health care. There may be some that don't like the system but again 3 of 4 CDNs think the system is working well. The proof is in the data not the anecdotes.

[RyderSpearmann]

All you did is agree with me, fool.

You just said that CDN government created the CAN H A for universal care of all canadians, which EVERYONE ALREADY KNOWS. This is the solution for all Canadians, precisely as I said.

and yet, only two posts back you state, incredibly "The government of Canada never proclaimed to have the solution for ALL CDNs."

Dude, you are a fools fool.

The biggest dolt I have ever run across... you positions are scattered, reasoning inane. Sorry, just true.

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

Yes the government of CAN created the CAN Health Act. It is a law NOT a solution. To quote you Learn to read. I will say again only YOU said the Gov. of Canada had the solution for all Canadians when in actual fact the solution is created by 10 provinces and 3 territories so it would be IMPOSSIBLE for the Gov. of Canada to make that proclamation. Therefore 13 provinces/territories, 13 distinct solutions for universal healthcare. Its clear you throw insults to mask your lack of knowledge.

[RyderSpearmann]

You must be a friggin lawyer. that you have to twist reality this bad is telling as hell.

BY DEFAULT, ANY national sytem is for ALL citizens, which YOU KNOW describes the CDN system. .

I've challenged you to provide ANY group that was intentionally left out to prove me wrong, and you have failed to do so.

the CDN system is for ALL canadians, plainly.  Sane people know this.

That you even argue the system can be *expected* to suck in the eyes of >25% of the population says it all.

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

You said the Gov. of Canada had the solution. This is WRONG. Look up LAW and SOLUTION in the dictionary. They have different meanings. You've challenged me with nothing. The CAN HEALTH ACT is the law that gives ACCESS to all residents. Nowhere in the CAN health act does it say that ALL citizens WILL like the system. It does state that all residents of CAN will have access. Anything that is said beyond this is factually inaccurate and clearly apparent in your posts.

[RyderSpearmann]

perscriptions are the US healthcare system? LOL!!! you are as dense as WOOD

Almost any drug is FREELY AVAILABLE. there are some, certainly significant in number, that are controlled substances and in that case, yes, licensed doctors are required to be a part of the method of control

If that were the sum total of healthcare then you might have a point

But this is like saying if we fly for our vacation, that since aviation is regulated, we therefore have a national vacation system. lol!

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

Go look up the definition of 'system' in the dictionary. Since you just admitted that Doctors are licensed and certain drugs can only be obtained by prescription; these are parts of a Health Care System. It's amazing that most if not all US politicians are saying 'system' but somehow you are trying to convince people otherwise. This can only be described as 'disingenuous'.

[RyderSpearmann]

What, were you born yesterday?

You never were told by your momma that politicians are lying pigs?

Sorry you were never well educated.

You are saying that just because I have a knife, and as knives are part of an arsenal, that I therefore have an arsenal

Raw stupidity.

It is my view that there should be no such thing as persciption drugs, except in the generic sense that a doctor might recommend one... other than that, any free person should be able to ingest anything they choose.

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

Im saying, I dont make general statements about people(ie. politicians are lying pigs). It leads to inaccuracies and statements that dont reflect reality. However,reviewing your posts only shows that general statements and inaccuracies are part of your character. The reality is that there are certain controls that exist in UShealthcre from both govrnmnt and other organizations that are the text book definition of a system.Yet you continue to deny that a system exists. Truly disingenuous.

[RyderSpearmann]

You find that you are unable to make generally true statements about politics/politicians?

No wonder you are crippled when you "speak".

"I can not accurately generalize, therefore I can not think in those terms." How lovely.

EVERYONE KNOWS that generalizations are EXACTLY THAT.

If you are not bright enough to know that politicians say things precisely to create impressions (not necessarily linked well to truth...), then you are suffering from naiveté beyond measure.

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

Generalities breed inaccuracies, clearly evident in your posts. Not to mention insults which speak volumes of your character.

[RyderSpearmann]

How is this for a generalization...

All Canadian doctors agree that the Canadian system is imploding, and that things are far more precarious than people like you realize.

Your system is running flat out, just trying to stay ahead of the immediate day-to-day demands.

Your eyes are closed to reality... and you are a fool for it.

Oh, and those comments? that wasn't me. That is YOUR new CMA president on August 15.

Time for you to wake up.

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

This is the same CMA president that also stressed she'll never waver from one principle: access to care regardless of a patient's ability to pay. Its funny how you didnt mention this. This statement is actually almost word for word from the Canada Health Act. Canadas Universal Healthcare system is not in jeopardy and it will continue under the same underlying principle but may be funded in a different form. Again leaving out the details and posting generalities. To quote youLearn to read.

[RyderSpearmann]

Of course she did. You say what you have to... Congratulations, you just discovered politics!

I am so proud of you!

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

Just another generalization from you. It seems painting everyone with the same brush is your motto or shall we say cherry picking quotes to suit your opinions. Either way as I said before, such logic leads to inaccuracies as you have proven from your posts.

[dustinbia323]

"All Canadian doctors agree that the Canadian system is imploding"

this is not true don't OPEN YOUR EYES! I am Canadian and this idea that our system if failing is crap.

This is an unbalanced argument by this

[RyderSpearmann]

Well, that is what the new president of the Canadian Medical Assiciation said... so you better take it up with her.

Don't you think she is in a position to know?

[dustinbia323]

it has been running since 1948

The reason she said this to pressure our current government in spending more on health care - everthing has a political context including CMA - but I agree with her that OUR conservative government SHOULD more on health care.

Still ask a Canadian and they WILL NOT let OUR health care system go to an American style system

NOR would the head of the CMA

Please don't post comments about OUR system until you know the WHOLE story.

This is how the LIES about canada start

[RyderSpearmann]

She said what she said. If you disagree with her... then take it up with her, not with me.

The President of the CMA said that the system in Canada is "imploding" and that all doctors know it.

You have to deal with her about that. And I am pretty sure that she has been to Canada, and that her words about the system are of at least equal in status as yours.

Your argument is with her.

Good luck.

BTW, how are those waiting times going?

Fixed yet?

[dustinbia323]

I was not arguing with you or her...

I am just stating that the CMA is a highly politicized group. Basically,

The CMA is just a lobby of private health care in Canada - It truly does not have any real say in Canada - I don't believe anything that comes from this group anyway.

Don't believe me take a look at their website - pretty obvious that they are a lobby group - I guess I am not tricked that easy.

But even they do not have the balls to say elimnate public health care in canada.

[kake1776]

I'm american and curious.  Never been to Canada but to cross in to say "Hey, I've been to Canada."

What are your income tax rates in Canada?

[dustinbia323]

just got this off wiki but here are the figures:

Canada:

single person: 31.6%

Family w/2 kids: 21.5%

In US

United States

single person 29.1%

Family w/ 2 kids:11.9%

Not sure how much goes to health care but it is not really fair to say that the difference alone will account for health care since we have a lot of government programs here.

[dustinbia323]

THE CMA is basically a bunch of doctors advoating a private health care system in Canada. They can try (in fact they have tried in the past) to get a private health care system in canada, but it won't work because Canadians DONT WANT IT.

THey tried it before, and the party supporting it was shot down in an election.

Canadians like their health care system.

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

Its amazing how you think the same metrics should be used to evaluate a system(intersection) thats simple, repetitive & largely automated(traffic lights) to that of a complex & individualized health system servicing 33M. After your anecdotes on CAN Health system, I didnt think you could post anything that was more irrelevant. I was wrong. A complex system servicing individuals will obviously have more detractors than one thats simple &servicing by volume.Your comparison is again meaningless.

[RyderSpearmann]

AGAIN.... if you have politicians that claim to have THE system for ALL canadians, then they BETTER DAMNED WELL HAVE IT WORK with FEW EXEPTIONS.

All you did was whine "But it is so *hard*... you can't expect government to do something so *hard*... "

Which is precisely the point.

If the CDN gov made big promises, then they have ripped canadians off.

Name a POLITICIAN in canada that told said ahead of time that the system would perform well for only 3 in 4 people.

Tell me ONE.

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

No politicians have proclaimed that they have the system for all CDNs or make big promises.The only person stating this is YOU.They proclaim to give residents of CAN access to healthcare regardless of individual wealth. This was clearly stated on CNN July 4th by Hugh Segal,CDN Conservative Senator. No system whether private or public will satisfy everyone. To think otherwise clearly shows you are living a dream world. The goal should be to try and satisfy the most and 3of4 is a strong majority.

[RyderSpearmann]

Jeez, learn to use less words: "Canada gave healthcare to all canadians". That is all you actually said. That you can't speak plainly is part of your problem.

And only quote from 50 years ago. Not now. Politicians can not make retroactive promises from 50 years past.

Quote for me, from 50 years ago, a politician saying that the goal was *anything* like a system to please 3 of 4 canadians.

If you can't, then my point stands. THE answer was for all CDNs, as a national system.

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

I did not say that. I said the Canada Health Act gives Access to ALL CDNs regardless of wealth. Like any service public or private some will not like it, however when you can say 3 of 4 people think the system is working well, that is a strong endorsement. As I have said many times before if you think everyone is going to like the system, then you are living in a dream world. Any service you want to pick will have its detractors but 3 of 4 is a strong majority.

[RyderSpearmann]

Your statement is INSANE. If ANY public project had only 3 of 4 satisfied, it would be considered a failure here.

That you are arguing in favor of a 25% failure in this case says so, so much.

It is a suck-ass endorsement...

But your problem is only getting worse, the more recent figures are that almost 50% of Canadians think that the system needs to be fully rebuilt, or have "major" overhauls.

Imagine Disneyland, or a restaurant where only 3 of 4 were satisfied... they'd be GONE.

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

Many people dont like Disneyland. If everyone did thered be more than one in the US. Just like there are people that dont like their police services or garbage services.3of4 is a strong majority & certainly higher than the 82% that believe the US system needs to be overhauled. The fact that both Dems and Repubs. support reforms to the US healthcare system supports this and was reiterated today by Tim Pawlenty. Only 7% of CDN residents think the quality is failing. Another strong endorsement.

[RyderSpearmann]

Like I said, I KNOW (about 50%) canadians that have forgone care for that reason....

That IS data. It is a limited set, granted... but it is data... and it says that about 50% of Canadians skip or delay care due to wait times.

As I am the ONLY one posting data on the subject, the task for ***you*** is to get better data that says this is NOT happening.

I'll not hold my breath.

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

If 50% of Canadians are going without care then 3 of 4 Canadians would not be saying that the system is working well. Only 2 of 4 would be saying that it is working well based on your 'so called' data.  Again what you post is anecdotes, not statistical data. The data that I posted is statistically accurate. Anyone can post anecdotes. For you to use this as fact really shows the lack of rational thinking on your part. I have never said the CDN system was perfect but it is a 'good' system.

[RyderSpearmann]

Asswipe... it is still data.

I have provided it, though admittedly a small sample, it is *all* we have. A small sample, so certainly the general population might be more or less than 50%.... in other words, a very rough "view" on the situation, but my data PROVES that it is a NON ZERO NUMBER.

Now, I wait for YOU to provide *data* that contradicts this.

You claim zero.

Put up or shut up.

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

Your data is NOT statistically accurate therefore they are not representative of the population of Canada. You have given anecdotes and they are meaningless. If you are telling the truth(your previous post have been inaccurate/accusations) these views are not shared by a strong majority of the people that are using the Canadian Health Care system. 3 of 4 residents of Canada believe the healthcare system is working well. Again, THOSE THAT CAN'T SUBSTANTIATE THEIR ARGUEMENTS RESORT TO INSULTS.

[RyderSpearmann]

I NEVER SAID THAT IT WAS STATISTICALLY ACCURATE. ACCURACY IS TOTALLY UNIMPORTANT TO THE POINT. IF I SHOT AN ARROW INTO YOU, TO MAKE THE POINT THAT YOU HAVE BEEN SHOT BY AN ARROW DOES NOT REQUIRE AN ACCURATE REPRESENTATION OF WHERE THE ARROW WENT IN.

That you can understand this simple concept, makes you an idiot of the highest order.

If I know canadians that forgo care, then there are other that do too.

Go ahead big man, tell everyone that no Canadians forgo care... DARE YOU.

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

I will say this, if these people that you know have foregone care, what happened with their law suits under Section 7 of the CDN Charter of Rights and Freedoms? Health care is a Charter Right in CAN and if they did not get care, they have had that right violated. So either these people or you are lying about foregoing care or they are spineless in letting their respective provincial gov't violate their Constitutional Rights which to me is worse than foregoing healthcare.

[RyderSpearmann]

Oh, you mean the Charter Right for ALL Canadians.... the one that for DAYS you claimed does NOT exist for all canadians... suddenly it does...

Dude, you can see canadians for YOURSELF say that they have forgone care...

watch?v=q2jijuj1ysw

fergodsakes, it's not hard to find it.

You are a zombie... walking dead, unaware of what is going on around you.

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

I never said a Charter Right does not exist for CDNs, this is just another one of your inaccurate/dishonest statements. You remember, like your claim that the 82% is made up or that the Gov. of Canada proclaims to have the solution for all CDNs yet the solution is delivered at the provincial level. If these people are not getting access they can sue the respective provincial government just like Chaoulli did. If your anecdotes dont want to do this then they shouldnt complain; hence no issue.

[RyderSpearmann]

You are the kind of fool that nobody can stand.

If you were the Captain of the titanic, and someone told you there was flooding... you would send him away, his observation totally useless until he had statistically useable data that showed the rate and locations of flooding.

You are a fool.

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

I have said many times before, those that cant support their arguments resort to insults. You call me a fool yet you make statements like You just said that CDN government created the CAN H A for universal care of all canadians,This is the solution for all Canadians. I never said this. I said it gives access to all residents of CAN. The CDN H A is a LAW not a solution. The solution is at the provincial level not the Gov. of CAN. Fools make inaccurate statements. Take a look in the mirror.

[RyderSpearmann]

"those that can't support their arguments retort to insults."

Oh really? Prove it, dork.

I want proof. Not anicdotes.

Until you can prove this, don't expect to hear from me, as you bore me to tears with your unsubstantiated comments.

[KNWTHEFACTS76]

Townhall meetings on US healthcare have had people throwing insults & NAZI references to Obama. If its a meeting about healthcare why the insults? Clearly b/c these people cant speak intelligently about the issue at hand & their concerns so they create a diversion. Similarly, I asked you why these people you apparently know in CAN arent suing the Prov. Gov. for a sect.7 Charter violation and you cant answer or substantiate your claim. Then you insult me calling me azombie. Need I say more?

[ritamalik]

So even though both system have cracks that some will eventually fall from, the free market system has the tendency to get better or stay the same at least while the public system always gets worse and worse and harder and harder to maintain as time goes by. So get over it! There is no perfect system which covers everyone regardless of wealth or need! The free market is as good as it will ever get in this imperfect world of ours.

[ritamalik]

If we care about those who are poor and have less access to healthcare why not try to organize private charities and help them privately instead of a massive and useless government programs with which everybody in the end be it rich or poor will be worse off? Sorry for the too long message :(

[denizsen]

It s correct canadian system not good but Private system like in US far worst, you give numbers people waiting to death in Canada and US millions of people cant even able the see the doctors at all. US only good at less waiting times. BUT GERMANY'S SOCIALIZED HEALTHCARE JUST PERFECT WITH ALL ASPECT WHY WE DONT TRY TO IMPROVE OUR HEALTHCARE LIKE THE GERMANS?

[lizzielou73]

Meant to say there are no available hospital beds. Yes, I have pneumonia. All are full with some people in the hallway in stretchers on the medical unit. Although, I was born with severe lung disease treated like cystic fibrosis (CF) I've been told the days of coming into the hospital for a tune-up are over due to the bed shortage. It's scary. The system is getting worse by the year. Furthermore, I've been waiting over a year to see a specialist about my lungs.

[lizzielou73]

I'm very ill at this time and should be in hospital with pneumonia, but have been told there are hospital beds, so I'm at home (in Canada) and struggling to breathe. Fortunately, at least I have O2 at home. Healthcare in Canada is in poor shape. Canadians who are healthier often think we have a great healthcare system, but when one is unwell and not able to access care it's a problem.

[TeamSIckoEh]

what a bunch of of crap ... i live in canada and this program is pure BS ...

Canadian perfer our health care system ... is this guy really canadian .. or a American pretending to be a canadian..

I need a big shovel for all of the crap.

[LeslieElite90]

Great counterpoints.

[RyderSpearmann]

Of course canadians prefer their system... they are ignorant of the American system, and there is almost nobody in Canada that even REMEMBERS when doctors were private.

Canadians today have no experience with private care. They are ignorant. This is a simple fact.

Yet Americans know BOTH forms, as we have both forms running right now.

Only the government run systems are in trouble. The private system is alive and well, very healty.