this is a hard one. I see both sides. But if there's an intruder in y our house you're not going to just sit down with him and discus theology with him before he tries to kill you, rape your wife or daughter...you don't know what hes' going to do. By breaking into your house he's taking his life at risk..it's unfortunate but I'd say do your best to subdue him or maybe kill him. I'm not going to have time to find out if he's saved or not. So I don't totally agree with JP's anwer on this one.
To all who agree w/ John's statements...consider missionary Charl Van Wyk. Charl's 1993 action during the St. John's Massacre is Piper's academic exercise; Charl is a missionary who has successfully shot assailants (lost souls) in church -which- ultimately gave him the opportunity to share the gospel w/ the man he shot and the terror leaders who ordered the church massacre. David used 5 stones; Charl used 5 bullets. Is not God with those who are both willing -and- equipped to act?
by that same logic we need not share the Gospel at all. the thing is that we don't know who the elect are. besides, even apart from that, why would you want to kill if u can avoid it?
Look Piper, did Christ get the job done or not? If Christ is not going to lose one of his sheep, you can't possibly believe that your shooting the intruder in self defense could result in one fewer soul in heaven than God intended. Piper's theology says that in the new birth - God's role is decisive and man's role is ESSENTIAL. (See Finally Alive) Piper seems to think that w/o him, God can't get the job done. Search for Street Theology 02 - Finally Alive by John Piper to learn more.
so his answer is ultimately that he's perfectly fine with guns, but is against unnecessary killing.
well no shit. I don't need to hear that. Weapons makers do. Why aren't non lethal weapons more common? There are plenty that are as or more effective than lethal weapons for disabling a target.
The best advice for such circumstances that I have heard is from Marc "the Animal" MacYoung. His website "no-nonsense self defense" is just great. He's a professional. Piper is no authority of criminality and his inexperience shows here.
It reminds me of those faith healers giving legal advice. "Eat flax seed for cancer". Just stick to your area of expertise where you shine so brightly John, but this advice is unprofessional and misguided.
Piper is really misleading people here if he is telling us to have sympathy for a hardened criminal who is robbing us. It is just blatant stupidity. And it's dangerous and irresponsible.
I hope to God no one in such a dire circumstance follows this foolish advice.
as the bible states not provideing for your your family is one of the worst sins,an someone comes into your home to harm your family an you dont have the means to protect them i believe you have committed one of the worst sins i respect you but your a fool on this point.
One of my relatives carries a gun with her, but the first shot is a blank. She has a second shot loaded incase she desperately needs it, but the hope is that one blank will be enough to scare off an attacker. I think this is the best idea ive seen, along with planning to shoot for the leg if the need arises instead of the chest/head.
@eingram21 Thats a great idea. Of course, it would be a rare case where lethal force is ever required . . . or warranted by law. If you shoot someone and your life is not in immediate danger, you will go to jail for murder. You really need to consider the legal consequences of using unauthorized lethal force. The law has a very narrow window for allowing it.
The best thing in most cases to defend yourself is pepper spray.
@sinnieleeonUtube Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. Jn 15:13. "friends" not "others."
I may give my friend something, say $5. But that is a big difference from my friend forcefully taking $5 from me. You're concept of boundaries is just attrocious.
Criminals are serious business, and Piper's treatment of how to deal with serious crime, here, is simply misguided and irresponsible.
very good point youngearthguy. Also I think the term those that will live by the gun will die by the gun is taken out of context as well. Iiving by the gun..or sword.. means that a person lives their life in a means of using weapons in a fashion to impose thier will for a selfish benefit. It also means that a person rely's on using a weapon in a destructive manner to acheive all their goals. This is different than having a weapon in the home for protection of those who cant defend themselves
No disrespect to Mr. Piper here, but the belief that his killing an intruder and them going to hell prematurely seems to contradict his sermons on the doctrine of election. If they were or were not chosen before the foundation of the Earth, then his killing them at anytime in their existence would not alter their eternal destination as predestined by God....or am I missing something in this answer?
@Youngearthguy It won't alter their destination, but we don't need to be the one to send them there. In the parable Jesus gave of the man in hell, even the unregenerate guy who's already in hell realizes it's so horrible that he doesn't want other people to go there. How much more should regenerate believers be concerned for their fellow man, even if they are unregenerate and going to end up there eventually? I wouldn't want to go there, and I don't wish it on anyone sooner than need be.
So, if I legally conceal and carry in public (consider me deputized for the protection of family, friends & the general public as warranted); does this mean I am wise or unwise? I could be wise for being prepared to defend the defenseless (lost souls) -or- I could be unwise for being prepared to kill assailants (lost souls). Which is it? It seems that if the chief consideration is whether my action might usher someone into hell then John should should not forget inaction may do the same.
@Sudhish86 He's not aware of a lot of things on this front; it's a luxury in peace. The missionaries' premeditated act of valor/sacrifice jeopordized themselves alone- the state of all souls involved was known. Why did they have guns at all unless they (unlike Piper) recognized justifiable circumstances for their use? See Youtube missionary "Charl Van Wyk" he shot back in a 1993 massacre and his experience is Piper's shoddy mental exercise. Charl - willing and able; Piper willing at best.
@usa4israel, because, unlike you, they are aware that other people besides themselves and the barbaric ones are present.
If, for whatever reason, they went after other innocent people, they probably would have saw fit in shooting them.
In Van Wyk's case, there were many lives at stake. Nonetheless, the justification would not be in anything we can think of, since we do not make up God's rules.
There is no one Biblical principle beyond loving/obeying the Lord our God.
@Sudhish86 Piper essentially said it's foolish to have a gun for protection; so by him those who have guns are fools. Had John been in St. James church and learned that Charl Van Wyk had a gun minutes before the massacre he'd have thought him a fool; but, after (IF John survived) he would've come to the conclusion he was foolish for thinking so lowly of Charl. You are doing what Piper has not; viz. consider the good that can come of a missionary shooting back. There is a time for everything.
@usa4israel, no he didn't! he rather implied it was not within Biblical doctrine to presume protection. He implies what you just did: there is a time for everything.
stop being a devil's advocate for the sake of mental masterbation. I agree with the missionaries' choice, since, they were only protecting themselves.
a father or church goer is not. DIFFERENT SCENARIOS. Piper gives different answers to those circumstances, yet it's probably not for those reasons?
@Sudhish86 You're words reveal your heart. With respect to a gun in a drawer, John said, "I just think it's not very wise." Thus, according to John, Charl Van Wyk was not very wise to have a gun in his drawer let alone at church before using it in the defense of hundreds in St. James church; according to Piper he did not qualify to act as "police/military" in fact, he was a missionary. If lethal defense is legit at anytime, John shouldn't push a guilt trip on anyone for having a gun.
@usa4israel, he then followed up by saying, "those who live by the gun die by the gun". he clearly is against the presumption over trust in God. that is the intent of the verse, "he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword". the intent is no different by Piper.
can you not percieve the concern in that verse is not trusting God? the conclusion of that section goes "this is the patience and faith of the saints".
I appreciate your understanding of Scripture, but in this matter, you have failed to consider the protection of loved ones.
God did not ordain police to protect your family, but the father. You will not have reflected the fatherly love of God to your daughter by letting her get raped at the cost of not killing an intruder. It is immoral for a father not to be prepared to protect his family. God protects his children by the Holy Ghost. We protect our children with God-given means.
@VeritySa how hard it is for me to comment like this, I have small ones; I look into the story of sodom and gammorrah ( ignore spelling please) what did lot do? he attempted to sacrifice his own daughters to save the towns people from their own sins. Was Lot an example of a godley man?
@andrewmarcus91 Did you ever see that movie "In Cold Blood." There, the father allowed the criminals to rape his daughter. Why? Well, it's not really within the realm of normal decisions. If someone has a gun to your head, or a mob with swords at your door, you just do what you must to survive. Many times rape victims will go along with it because they're dead if they don't. It's actually a way of coping and surviving. It has nothing to do with saving the criminal.
Not consistent with "John Piper- Why is it OK for God to kill women and children in the Old Testament (4:20 mark)." Our sword bearing government also created self defense laws. Why for the death penalty sending a nonbeliever to hell, but NO GO on self defense? God chose to allow this government the death penalty administered by the prison and the private citizen. If an armed citizen is confronted by a wolf it may be a divine appointment to remove either man.
I don't see how choosing to die rather than kill someone attacking me and choosing not to have a gun in the house to protect my family is even a legit. comparisson. The Bible makes it clear that killing, in and of itself, is not wrong. God would not have sent the Israelites to war or made provisions for those who kill an intruder if it was. My wife and daughter are "weaker vessels" and I must do whatever I can to protect them...
the whole point is, though I understant to (some extent) Pipers points, I do think it willfully ignaorant or even down right foolish to tell someone HOW to protect ones family. If any of you believe that God views it a sin to defend agianst an attacker (and yes even with a gun) to protect ones family or life then I respect your opinion. But it my view it's the wrong view.
It hurts my head. You're all just...so fucking dumb. I can't tell if it's an American thing or not. Don't get me wrong, there are stupid christians in Canada too, but they seem way less harmless and never do they earn celebrity status. Americans just seem to hand their money over to every slack-jawed country retard who speaks loud and has a vague understanding of the bible. I liked it better when all of you gave your money to Oprah. Stop ruining the continent.
I own an AR15, two lever action rifles, and a 1911 .45ACP handgun. I enjoy target shooting. The only things my guns hurt are paper and metal targets. I don't hunt. I have no desire to harm anyone. I agree with Bro. Piper that having a gun laying around the garage is foolish. Guns should be secured, and as far as defense is concerned, should only be used as an absolute last, final resort. It is also a Consitutional right of "the people." When one right is lost, others follow.
In Australia (where I'm from) people just can't go down to K-mart and buy a gun. Why would any responsible government allow that? It results in a proliferation of deadly weapons, which end up in deadly hands and kills. How much more should Christians refrain from buying deadly weapons? I think this Americans have made an idol out of the second ammendment. Their carnal hearts want to find security in themselves and not rely on God.
@autry33 I guess then that you are a christian...with a gun. Well, as long as you disobey the clear instructions in the bible to kill Atheists, then I won't be quite so scared.
@autry33 OK, fair enough, I'll get down off my high horse about the ethics of the bible, the issue here is gun ownership
I firmly believe that people don't need guns. The vast majority of folk are fine with them. But what could simply have been a violent, ugly dispute with broken bones and a serious knife wound, ends up a homicide
@UrukEngineer I agree with you. I actually think that people get into an almost "rambo" mentality. Instead of trying to find a way to get out of a situation or avoid it all together I have run into alot of bone heads who are almost excited about firing a weapon in self defense. So in the case of guns, I firmly believe in the right mind set (which is hard to find). I believe it is only a life or death tool. Period. So the mindset MUST be one of total care.
@RetSquid Under the Criminal Justice Act (1988) it is already illegal to carry a blade in a public place. Legal exceptions are; for use at work, for religious reasons, as part of national dress, folding pocket knives with blades less than 3 inches (flick knives are banned completely)…or for any other “good reason”.
UK knife crime is probably twice as bad as US gun crime, so there are periodic calls for tougher laws. I suspect the law will stay the same, but policing become tougher.
I've seen stories about banning the sale of kitchen knives to minors, basically the sale of anything with a point on it. In the U.S. where they have relaxed the gun laws, crime has gone down. Those cities with the highest crime rates have the strictess gun laws. The criminals know that the victim will be unarmed. I just got my permit to carry a concealed weapon.
@RetSquid The UK has some of the toughest anti-gun laws in the world and has one of the lowest rates of gun homicide in the world (Wiki "Gun politics in the UK"). Whilst knife crime is a problem in the UK, the overall homocide rates for the England and Wales/US in 2009 were 1.43/5.6 per 100,000 i.e. homocide (all causes) was 4 times higher over your side of the Pond. I know you see gun-ownership as protecting your freedom, but George III isn't coming back, so do you really NEED guns?
In every city where there are less-strict gun laws there are lower incidents of gun violence. Gun ownership is protected by our Constitution, it's not going away any time soon. Gun ownership is like much of the rest of the Bill of Rights, it is a protection against Government abuses. If it gets too bad we CAN replace them.
@RetSquid "In every city where there are less-strict gun laws there are lower incidents of gun violence."
Do you have any statistical evidence to support that? I have given you statistical evidence that runs counter to your assertion - admittedly it was just the US compared to the UK.
In New Hampshire there are no laws prohibiting buying or cayying a gun. You can open-carry whatever (not fully automatic) you wish. It is Piper's wish to not carry or use a weapon, I believe it is a form of suicide to have one and not use it to protect yourself and others.
self-defense is mandatory, anything else is disrespecting the body. Since you're anti-smoking Piper, you should also be pro-gun, as you're pro-defending the body
@Dadutta how about where Jesus says "he who seeks to save his life will lose it"? smoking is a no brainer thing that can really only do harm. shooting someone when they are trying to attack you involves eternity for one person or the other. think Gospel-centered, not life-preservation centered (or self-centered). if you go to heaven, awesome! to live is Christ and to die is GAIN. if they die, they may go straight to Hell. if they live, there is still hope.
What i don't understand is why some brothers and sisters in america are fighting for the 'right to bear arms' when the teaching of our messiah is so contrary to the philosophies of this world... when we give our lives to christ we're relinquishing earthly rights and rejecting empty earthly philosphies.
I like how you quoted the 'if anyone would come after me me must take up his cross...' scripture. I really admire our John, he really has a deep connection with God
Nothing like using fairy tales to make important decisions.... Religion, giving people false ideas of reality and human nature since.... Well, since man has evolved a brain large enough to make stuff up.... Yeah, god will protect us from intruders.... Are you going to pray for your child, or would you take him to the hospital.... Prayer works about as well as a magic horse shoe!!!!
@tempemonkey2323 that is a lie. Whether you choose to believe me is your problem. I had a terrible staph infection that had eaten 3 holes in my chest down to the bone. I had quite alot of people praying about it. Before i left to go to the doctor for treatment I looked at it. I could see the sternum at the bottom of the holes. When I went in the doctor he had me lift my shirt. The holes had completely healed all the way through. Leaving just a small scab at the top.
Guns and weapons are unnecessary. War, animal killing, murder, and the likes are all so preventable. Because us humans with our big brains had to create guns now tons of people have died and suffered and crime has dramatically increased. You know how easy it is to get a gun nowadays?
@777TylerJB That is not a problem with guns per say but of the human heart don't you think? I mean, we would kill or hurt each other any way we could "thousands" of different ways. So I think it is the heart that in question, not a man with a gun. A good man with a gun I have no issue with. A bad man with a gun with evil intent is the issue.
@777TylerJB You also have to be careful. God himself used "war" to advance a certain goal. To judge nations or to free his people. So as abhorent as war appears to us (and in the new kingdon will be no more) it is sometimes needed. The holocaust or genocide are perfect examples.
USA is a trigger happy nation, come to Australia, ive never touched a real gun, my parents have lived here since kids and never had to use a gun. (my dad did go rabbit shooting a few times, but that was before they introduced licenses which you have to pay). Atheist says "touch me? ill kill you or sue you", American Christians say "touch me? ill kill you or sue you and on the way tell you about Jesus"
@vico100 I agree with you that christian hypocracy concerning guns and killing people is horrible. In this context, if a man knows (not feels) his childrens lives are in danger or his wife there should be no doubt (even if he is a christian) that it is justified for that man(if he is a good man) to use force to stop that danger. Don't get me wrong, Im not in the " Kill'em all" christian camp and I do believe you should do everything possible to avoid this, a man is justified to defend his family
Although true of criminals, what does that statement have to do with well educated responsible and legal gun owners? Are you saying they're going to die by the gun too?
@Dresden1065 Yeah, the "those who live by the sword, die by the sword" verse is obviously in reference to people who use the sword against others, not somebody who merely owns one for self defense or sport.
@Dresden1065 What he means is if your philosophy is to resort to killing with your gun in order to preserve your life, your eternal consequences will fall under the same philosophy. I think.
Matthew 5:39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.
Of course, I still agree that we should protect our families.
@crem004 That verse is not talking about in response to self defense, it's talking about forgiveness. Actually the bible makes it clear Self Defense is not a sin.
I don't completely disagree with Piper though. We should have discernment in our decisions and we should pray to God and ask him for wisdom so if we do come across these situations, we can make a godly decision that is directed by the holy spirit,scripture and not purely on our emotions.
At this moment I'm very careful in what I'm saying because I know that men's souls are at stake here.
Jesus was not against self decense and ESPECIALLY not against defending your family.
Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
In my opinion ( I don't have a verse for this at the moment ) If a man doesn't attempt to defend his family in a realistic fashion,then he isn't worthy of his family,and isn't worthy to be called dad because a biblical dad would.
@dirtysocks007 How about in Timothy when he says " those who can't provide for those of his household is worse than a heathen." In Exodus it says if you kill a thief who breaks in your house. But obviously, if you can avoid it you should.
(This information has been taken by Joseph Farah. Taken from another webpage which is not my own)
Read those verses in context and they support my position. Jesus told Peter he would be committing suicide to choose a fight in this situation as well as undermining God's plan to allow Jesus' death on the cross and resurrection.
It is plain and simple, Jesus Christ stated to Peter, when the Peter cut off one of the Jewish solider ear off. Jesus said NO to him. He told him, anyone that pick up a sword, shall perish by the sword. I to like brother John Piper, don't need any weapon to defend my family or myself. God is very soveign. He alone is incontrol, where we are not. He see's what we can not. I don't believe in violent. Where satan does. We just need to depend on Jesus and not in ourselves.
I know. I know. You biblically literate skeptics are going to cite Matthew 26:52-54 how Jesus responded when Peter used his sword to cut off the ear of a servant of the high priest: "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?"
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Foolish reasoning. I love his books but man! He says he is in favor of police shooting a person who is hurting someone else but I not a person owning a gun? I guess it's better that a police officer protect my family that if I do it? Hmmm. Makes no since. If you believe that The Lord God would expect you to do nothing while your daughter is getting raped or if your family is in danger than your not WAY out of line.
He's saying: try not to kill people, coz they will go to hell, and having a gun may have you killing people. So.... at least TRY not to whac the rapist, murderer, robber, the tutsi guy with a missionary-killing spear. Just TRY, for the sake of your consciousness before Jesus. You gotta TRY. Shoot his both legs, for instance.
He said you should protect your daughter, but it was his advise not to live with the habbit of using a gun to kill people, you need to listen to this again.
So your saying you he SHOULD protect his daughter? And if the guy HAS a gun how is he gonna do that? You know the answer. Thats number one. Number two, If I own a gun I have a "habbit" of killing people with it? Like cops have a "habbit'' of shooting people because they have them or hunters have a ''habbit'' of killing people every now and then? Rubbish! I heard him load and clear and his reasoning is still has holes in it. Owning a gun does not= WANTING to kill innocent people with them.
It's a matter of authority. Governments have the God given authority to carry the sword (or gun, in this case) and to kill.
Self defense is not a mandated, REQUIRED action of the individual. The methods and level of force one can use to protect oneself is up to the individual, and their conviction before God.
He's merely saying just because we CAN have guns doesn't mean we SHOULD or NEED to have one, and that considerations should be made for the SOULS of those attacking us.
maybe it's because he knows that there are things available to him that are more important than himself, his family and his possessions. If you had ever heard anything by John Piper I'm sure you would know of one of his favorite Psalms, Psalm 73, which is of David considering that God trumps all earthly pleasures in totality. you should be ashamed for calling such a godly man such a derogatory name.
It doesn't make sense, right? You are not alone. However, things get sort of flipped around when we decide to follow Christ. To live is good, but heaven is better. Also I think he protects his family by being a spiritual example, so that they need not fear death.
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And you know as well as i do. when these people go before God and ask, "we pryed for you to keep us from being speared to death, why didn't you save us from being speared to death?"
The Lords answer will be, "I made sure you had a gun before you went, so why didn't you use them? Why did you waste all the bullets shooting at me?"
You don't get it... Nate didn't want to kill the tribesmen because they were not saved. They didn't want them to go to hell, and they didn't expect to be saved.
this is a hard one. I see both sides. But if there's an intruder in y our house you're not going to just sit down with him and discus theology with him before he tries to kill you, rape your wife or daughter...you don't know what hes' going to do. By breaking into your house he's taking his life at risk..it's unfortunate but I'd say do your best to subdue him or maybe kill him. I'm not going to have time to find out if he's saved or not. So I don't totally agree with JP's anwer on this one.
cmdesign01 2 days ago
This guy is SO out of touch with reality.
ViperGTS19801 3 days ago
To all who agree w/ John's statements...consider missionary Charl Van Wyk. Charl's 1993 action during the St. John's Massacre is Piper's academic exercise; Charl is a missionary who has successfully shot assailants (lost souls) in church -which- ultimately gave him the opportunity to share the gospel w/ the man he shot and the terror leaders who ordered the church massacre. David used 5 stones; Charl used 5 bullets. Is not God with those who are both willing -and- equipped to act?
usa4israel 1 week ago
@theearstohear
by that same logic we need not share the Gospel at all. the thing is that we don't know who the elect are. besides, even apart from that, why would you want to kill if u can avoid it?
mikealike0732 1 week ago
Look Piper, did Christ get the job done or not? If Christ is not going to lose one of his sheep, you can't possibly believe that your shooting the intruder in self defense could result in one fewer soul in heaven than God intended. Piper's theology says that in the new birth - God's role is decisive and man's role is ESSENTIAL. (See Finally Alive) Piper seems to think that w/o him, God can't get the job done. Search for Street Theology 02 - Finally Alive by John Piper to learn more.
theearstohear 1 week ago
I'd prefer using a pepper spray or mace gun/pepper spray gun.
wren2011 2 weeks ago
amen
phonebush 2 weeks ago
so his answer is ultimately that he's perfectly fine with guns, but is against unnecessary killing.
well no shit. I don't need to hear that. Weapons makers do. Why aren't non lethal weapons more common? There are plenty that are as or more effective than lethal weapons for disabling a target.
NoTrueFace1 2 weeks ago
I meant "those faith healers giving medical advice"
RomansGalatians 1 month ago
The best advice for such circumstances that I have heard is from Marc "the Animal" MacYoung. His website "no-nonsense self defense" is just great. He's a professional. Piper is no authority of criminality and his inexperience shows here.
It reminds me of those faith healers giving legal advice. "Eat flax seed for cancer". Just stick to your area of expertise where you shine so brightly John, but this advice is unprofessional and misguided.
RomansGalatians 1 month ago
Piper is really misleading people here if he is telling us to have sympathy for a hardened criminal who is robbing us. It is just blatant stupidity. And it's dangerous and irresponsible.
I hope to God no one in such a dire circumstance follows this foolish advice.
RomansGalatians 1 month ago
We have a DUTY to defend ourselves and our family.
Now that said, there is no need to shoot a robber as long as he's not trying to kill you or your family.
RomansGalatians 1 month ago
as the bible states not provideing for your your family is one of the worst sins,an someone comes into your home to harm your family an you dont have the means to protect them i believe you have committed one of the worst sins i respect you but your a fool on this point.
ohmyjosh23 2 months ago
One of my relatives carries a gun with her, but the first shot is a blank. She has a second shot loaded incase she desperately needs it, but the hope is that one blank will be enough to scare off an attacker. I think this is the best idea ive seen, along with planning to shoot for the leg if the need arises instead of the chest/head.
eingram21 2 months ago
@eingram21 Thats a great idea. Of course, it would be a rare case where lethal force is ever required . . . or warranted by law. If you shoot someone and your life is not in immediate danger, you will go to jail for murder. You really need to consider the legal consequences of using unauthorized lethal force. The law has a very narrow window for allowing it.
The best thing in most cases to defend yourself is pepper spray.
RomansGalatians 1 month ago
@eingram21 that is interesting. I have never heard of that before. Makes one think.
autry33 2 weeks ago
Silly.
RomansGalatians 3 months ago
@RomansGalatians --- So according to you, what is the teaching of Christ ?
"Lay down your life for others" as Jesus did OR "kill or be killed" ? Which it is ?
sinnieleeonUtube 4 weeks ago
@sinnieleeonUtube Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. Jn 15:13. "friends" not "others."
I may give my friend something, say $5. But that is a big difference from my friend forcefully taking $5 from me. You're concept of boundaries is just attrocious.
Criminals are serious business, and Piper's treatment of how to deal with serious crime, here, is simply misguided and irresponsible.
RomansGalatians 4 weeks ago
very good point youngearthguy. Also I think the term those that will live by the gun will die by the gun is taken out of context as well. Iiving by the gun..or sword.. means that a person lives their life in a means of using weapons in a fashion to impose thier will for a selfish benefit. It also means that a person rely's on using a weapon in a destructive manner to acheive all their goals. This is different than having a weapon in the home for protection of those who cant defend themselves
grapplingtech77 3 months ago
No disrespect to Mr. Piper here, but the belief that his killing an intruder and them going to hell prematurely seems to contradict his sermons on the doctrine of election. If they were or were not chosen before the foundation of the Earth, then his killing them at anytime in their existence would not alter their eternal destination as predestined by God....or am I missing something in this answer?
Youngearthguy 4 months ago
@Youngearthguy It won't alter their destination, but we don't need to be the one to send them there. In the parable Jesus gave of the man in hell, even the unregenerate guy who's already in hell realizes it's so horrible that he doesn't want other people to go there. How much more should regenerate believers be concerned for their fellow man, even if they are unregenerate and going to end up there eventually? I wouldn't want to go there, and I don't wish it on anyone sooner than need be.
FlightOfTheWalruses 3 months ago
such a great answer.
YooserFriendly 4 months ago
It seems American Christians spend more money on guns than helping poor people.
Jesus would think you suck.
ilikezappa 4 months ago
End of A Spear is a movie he referred to...watch it!!
RealJesusFreaks 5 months ago
whatever happened to stun guns or those other beanbag guns and the like that absolutely incapacitate a person without killing them?
ektron7 6 months ago
So, if I legally conceal and carry in public (consider me deputized for the protection of family, friends & the general public as warranted); does this mean I am wise or unwise? I could be wise for being prepared to defend the defenseless (lost souls) -or- I could be unwise for being prepared to kill assailants (lost souls). Which is it? It seems that if the chief consideration is whether my action might usher someone into hell then John should should not forget inaction may do the same.
usa4israel 6 months ago 6
@usa4israel God will protect you and your family.
RealJesusFreaks 5 months ago
@usa4israel, as he said, use force, but if you can avoid killing someone, then so do.
he's well aware of your concern...
Sudhish86 1 week ago
@Sudhish86 He's not aware of a lot of things on this front; it's a luxury in peace. The missionaries' premeditated act of valor/sacrifice jeopordized themselves alone- the state of all souls involved was known. Why did they have guns at all unless they (unlike Piper) recognized justifiable circumstances for their use? See Youtube missionary "Charl Van Wyk" he shot back in a 1993 massacre and his experience is Piper's shoddy mental exercise. Charl - willing and able; Piper willing at best.
usa4israel 1 week ago
@usa4israel, because, unlike you, they are aware that other people besides themselves and the barbaric ones are present.
If, for whatever reason, they went after other innocent people, they probably would have saw fit in shooting them.
In Van Wyk's case, there were many lives at stake. Nonetheless, the justification would not be in anything we can think of, since we do not make up God's rules.
There is no one Biblical principle beyond loving/obeying the Lord our God.
Pointless cynicsm.
Sudhish86 1 week ago
@Sudhish86 Piper essentially said it's foolish to have a gun for protection; so by him those who have guns are fools. Had John been in St. James church and learned that Charl Van Wyk had a gun minutes before the massacre he'd have thought him a fool; but, after (IF John survived) he would've come to the conclusion he was foolish for thinking so lowly of Charl. You are doing what Piper has not; viz. consider the good that can come of a missionary shooting back. There is a time for everything.
usa4israel 5 days ago
@usa4israel, no he didn't! he rather implied it was not within Biblical doctrine to presume protection. He implies what you just did: there is a time for everything.
stop being a devil's advocate for the sake of mental masterbation. I agree with the missionaries' choice, since, they were only protecting themselves.
a father or church goer is not. DIFFERENT SCENARIOS. Piper gives different answers to those circumstances, yet it's probably not for those reasons?
Just mental masterbation.
Sudhish86 5 days ago
@Sudhish86 You're words reveal your heart. With respect to a gun in a drawer, John said, "I just think it's not very wise." Thus, according to John, Charl Van Wyk was not very wise to have a gun in his drawer let alone at church before using it in the defense of hundreds in St. James church; according to Piper he did not qualify to act as "police/military" in fact, he was a missionary. If lethal defense is legit at anytime, John shouldn't push a guilt trip on anyone for having a gun.
usa4israel 4 days ago
@usa4israel, he then followed up by saying, "those who live by the gun die by the gun". he clearly is against the presumption over trust in God. that is the intent of the verse, "he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword". the intent is no different by Piper.
can you not percieve the concern in that verse is not trusting God? the conclusion of that section goes "this is the patience and faith of the saints".
patience and faith[in God]>presuming protection.
Sudhish86 3 days ago
I appreciate your understanding of Scripture, but in this matter, you have failed to consider the protection of loved ones.
God did not ordain police to protect your family, but the father. You will not have reflected the fatherly love of God to your daughter by letting her get raped at the cost of not killing an intruder. It is immoral for a father not to be prepared to protect his family. God protects his children by the Holy Ghost. We protect our children with God-given means.
VeritySa 7 months ago
@VeritySa how hard it is for me to comment like this, I have small ones; I look into the story of sodom and gammorrah ( ignore spelling please) what did lot do? he attempted to sacrifice his own daughters to save the towns people from their own sins. Was Lot an example of a godley man?
andrewmarcus91 3 months ago
@andrewmarcus91 Did you ever see that movie "In Cold Blood." There, the father allowed the criminals to rape his daughter. Why? Well, it's not really within the realm of normal decisions. If someone has a gun to your head, or a mob with swords at your door, you just do what you must to survive. Many times rape victims will go along with it because they're dead if they don't. It's actually a way of coping and surviving. It has nothing to do with saving the criminal.
RomansGalatians 1 month ago
Not consistent with "John Piper- Why is it OK for God to kill women and children in the Old Testament (4:20 mark)." Our sword bearing government also created self defense laws. Why for the death penalty sending a nonbeliever to hell, but NO GO on self defense? God chose to allow this government the death penalty administered by the prison and the private citizen. If an armed citizen is confronted by a wolf it may be a divine appointment to remove either man.
71HOOKSC 7 months ago
Gun ownership is a type of idolatry in America. I disagree with a lot of what Piper has to say, but he's right about this.
brendos444 8 months ago
(cont.)... Attack me, I may give my life. Endanger my family, you get to to the chest and one to the head without hesitation.
OfWrathAndGrace 9 months ago
I don't see how choosing to die rather than kill someone attacking me and choosing not to have a gun in the house to protect my family is even a legit. comparisson. The Bible makes it clear that killing, in and of itself, is not wrong. God would not have sent the Israelites to war or made provisions for those who kill an intruder if it was. My wife and daughter are "weaker vessels" and I must do whatever I can to protect them...
OfWrathAndGrace 9 months ago
@OfWrathAndGrace Of course you should protect your family. How much better protected might they be if guns were less freely available?
UrukEngineer 9 months ago
the whole point is, though I understant to (some extent) Pipers points, I do think it willfully ignaorant or even down right foolish to tell someone HOW to protect ones family. If any of you believe that God views it a sin to defend agianst an attacker (and yes even with a gun) to protect ones family or life then I respect your opinion. But it my view it's the wrong view.
autry33 9 months ago
I love Piper, but on this one, he's wrong.
autry33 9 months ago
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Farr1012 10 months ago
he kinda looks like Larry David
Pablokolter 10 months ago
It hurts my head. You're all just...so fucking dumb. I can't tell if it's an American thing or not. Don't get me wrong, there are stupid christians in Canada too, but they seem way less harmless and never do they earn celebrity status. Americans just seem to hand their money over to every slack-jawed country retard who speaks loud and has a vague understanding of the bible. I liked it better when all of you gave your money to Oprah. Stop ruining the continent.
bancemann 11 months ago
I own an AR15, two lever action rifles, and a 1911 .45ACP handgun. I enjoy target shooting. The only things my guns hurt are paper and metal targets. I don't hunt. I have no desire to harm anyone. I agree with Bro. Piper that having a gun laying around the garage is foolish. Guns should be secured, and as far as defense is concerned, should only be used as an absolute last, final resort. It is also a Consitutional right of "the people." When one right is lost, others follow.
countrysidesat 11 months ago
In Australia (where I'm from) people just can't go down to K-mart and buy a gun. Why would any responsible government allow that? It results in a proliferation of deadly weapons, which end up in deadly hands and kills. How much more should Christians refrain from buying deadly weapons? I think this Americans have made an idol out of the second ammendment. Their carnal hearts want to find security in themselves and not rely on God.
brendos444 11 months ago
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chopinisyourruler 11 months ago
so if the preachers start saying, turn in your guns and go to the fema camps... then what?
PacmanBonez 1 year ago
I'm with Piper. You should not have a gun
Christians with guns - scary.
UrukEngineer 1 year ago
@UrukEngineer so sad you just lumped every christian into one big pile without knowing all of them.
autry33 9 months ago
@autry33 I guess then that you are a christian...with a gun. Well, as long as you disobey the clear instructions in the bible to kill Atheists, then I won't be quite so scared.
UrukEngineer 9 months ago
@UrukEngineer I have no idea where you are going with that but ok.
autry33 9 months ago
@autry33 OK, fair enough, I'll get down off my high horse about the ethics of the bible, the issue here is gun ownership
I firmly believe that people don't need guns. The vast majority of folk are fine with them. But what could simply have been a violent, ugly dispute with broken bones and a serious knife wound, ends up a homicide
Gun homicide/100,000
USA (2001) 3.98 - has high gun ownership
England (2002) 0.15 - strict anti-gun laws
By my maths, that is a factor of 26.
UrukEngineer 9 months ago
@UrukEngineer I agree with you. I actually think that people get into an almost "rambo" mentality. Instead of trying to find a way to get out of a situation or avoid it all together I have run into alot of bone heads who are almost excited about firing a weapon in self defense. So in the case of guns, I firmly believe in the right mind set (which is hard to find). I believe it is only a life or death tool. Period. So the mindset MUST be one of total care.
autry33 9 months ago
@UrukEngineer
I heard you guys are getting ready to impose knife control laws also.
RetSquid 9 months ago
@RetSquid Under the Criminal Justice Act (1988) it is already illegal to carry a blade in a public place. Legal exceptions are; for use at work, for religious reasons, as part of national dress, folding pocket knives with blades less than 3 inches (flick knives are banned completely)…or for any other “good reason”.
UK knife crime is probably twice as bad as US gun crime, so there are periodic calls for tougher laws. I suspect the law will stay the same, but policing become tougher.
UrukEngineer 9 months ago
@UrukEngineer
I've seen stories about banning the sale of kitchen knives to minors, basically the sale of anything with a point on it. In the U.S. where they have relaxed the gun laws, crime has gone down. Those cities with the highest crime rates have the strictess gun laws. The criminals know that the victim will be unarmed. I just got my permit to carry a concealed weapon.
RetSquid 9 months ago
@RetSquid The UK has some of the toughest anti-gun laws in the world and has one of the lowest rates of gun homicide in the world (Wiki "Gun politics in the UK"). Whilst knife crime is a problem in the UK, the overall homocide rates for the England and Wales/US in 2009 were 1.43/5.6 per 100,000 i.e. homocide (all causes) was 4 times higher over your side of the Pond. I know you see gun-ownership as protecting your freedom, but George III isn't coming back, so do you really NEED guns?
UrukEngineer 9 months ago 2
@UrukEngineer
In every city where there are less-strict gun laws there are lower incidents of gun violence. Gun ownership is protected by our Constitution, it's not going away any time soon. Gun ownership is like much of the rest of the Bill of Rights, it is a protection against Government abuses. If it gets too bad we CAN replace them.
RetSquid 9 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@RetSquid "In every city where there are less-strict gun laws there are lower incidents of gun violence."
Do you have any statistical evidence to support that? I have given you statistical evidence that runs counter to your assertion - admittedly it was just the US compared to the UK.
UrukEngineer 9 months ago
@UrukEngineer
Sounds like it's time to outlaw knives. Might as well think ahead and get the forks at the same time :-)
71HOOKSC 7 months ago
@71HOOKSC "Sounds like it's time to outlaw knives" - the UK's already done that. As for forks, only automatic and pump-action ones are banned.
UrukEngineer 7 months ago
@UrukEngineer
In New Hampshire there are no laws prohibiting buying or cayying a gun. You can open-carry whatever (not fully automatic) you wish. It is Piper's wish to not carry or use a weapon, I believe it is a form of suicide to have one and not use it to protect yourself and others.
RetSquid 9 months ago
@RetSquid Hmmm, on the other hand, your lax gun rules could be considered a mass suicide pact.
UrukEngineer 9 months ago
@UrukEngineer
Strange, I don't see how that is.
RetSquid 9 months ago
@RetSquid Collectively you refuse to remove the most obvious instrument of homocide = mass suicide pact.
Of course this will do nothing to reduce violent crime. It just means that your citizens are more likely to survive it.
UrukEngineer 9 months ago 15
self-defense is mandatory, anything else is disrespecting the body. Since you're anti-smoking Piper, you should also be pro-gun, as you're pro-defending the body
Dadutta 1 year ago
@Dadutta Did you even listen the video?
darthnozo 1 year ago
@Dadutta how about where Jesus says "he who seeks to save his life will lose it"? smoking is a no brainer thing that can really only do harm. shooting someone when they are trying to attack you involves eternity for one person or the other. think Gospel-centered, not life-preservation centered (or self-centered). if you go to heaven, awesome! to live is Christ and to die is GAIN. if they die, they may go straight to Hell. if they live, there is still hope.
Farr1012 10 months ago
@Farr1012
What i don't understand is why some brothers and sisters in america are fighting for the 'right to bear arms' when the teaching of our messiah is so contrary to the philosophies of this world... when we give our lives to christ we're relinquishing earthly rights and rejecting empty earthly philosphies.
I like how you quoted the 'if anyone would come after me me must take up his cross...' scripture. I really admire our John, he really has a deep connection with God
robpunx 10 months ago
2:18-2:35 : The point of our lives here on Earth.
darthnozo 1 year ago
I love you John Piper!
MrSdh445 1 year ago
Nothing like using fairy tales to make important decisions.... Religion, giving people false ideas of reality and human nature since.... Well, since man has evolved a brain large enough to make stuff up.... Yeah, god will protect us from intruders.... Are you going to pray for your child, or would you take him to the hospital.... Prayer works about as well as a magic horse shoe!!!!
tempemonkey2323 1 year ago
@tempemonkey2323 that is a lie. Whether you choose to believe me is your problem. I had a terrible staph infection that had eaten 3 holes in my chest down to the bone. I had quite alot of people praying about it. Before i left to go to the doctor for treatment I looked at it. I could see the sternum at the bottom of the holes. When I went in the doctor he had me lift my shirt. The holes had completely healed all the way through. Leaving just a small scab at the top.
MnSPictures 1 year ago
Guns and weapons are unnecessary. War, animal killing, murder, and the likes are all so preventable. Because us humans with our big brains had to create guns now tons of people have died and suffered and crime has dramatically increased. You know how easy it is to get a gun nowadays?
777TylerJB 1 year ago
@777TylerJB That is not a problem with guns per say but of the human heart don't you think? I mean, we would kill or hurt each other any way we could "thousands" of different ways. So I think it is the heart that in question, not a man with a gun. A good man with a gun I have no issue with. A bad man with a gun with evil intent is the issue.
Autry29 1 year ago
@777TylerJB You also have to be careful. God himself used "war" to advance a certain goal. To judge nations or to free his people. So as abhorent as war appears to us (and in the new kingdon will be no more) it is sometimes needed. The holocaust or genocide are perfect examples.
Autry29 1 year ago
USA is a trigger happy nation, come to Australia, ive never touched a real gun, my parents have lived here since kids and never had to use a gun. (my dad did go rabbit shooting a few times, but that was before they introduced licenses which you have to pay). Atheist says "touch me? ill kill you or sue you", American Christians say "touch me? ill kill you or sue you and on the way tell you about Jesus"
vico100 1 year ago
@vico100 I agree with you that christian hypocracy concerning guns and killing people is horrible. In this context, if a man knows (not feels) his childrens lives are in danger or his wife there should be no doubt (even if he is a christian) that it is justified for that man(if he is a good man) to use force to stop that danger. Don't get me wrong, Im not in the " Kill'em all" christian camp and I do believe you should do everything possible to avoid this, a man is justified to defend his family
Autry29 1 year ago
@Autry29 I agree :)
vico100 1 year ago
@vico100 Your to easy LOL .. well put!
Autry29 1 year ago
"Those who live by the gun will die by the gun"
Although true of criminals, what does that statement have to do with well educated responsible and legal gun owners? Are you saying they're going to die by the gun too?
Dresden1065 1 year ago 2
@Dresden1065 Yeah, the "those who live by the sword, die by the sword" verse is obviously in reference to people who use the sword against others, not somebody who merely owns one for self defense or sport.
WorshipInTruth 1 year ago
@Dresden1065 What he means is if your philosophy is to resort to killing with your gun in order to preserve your life, your eternal consequences will fall under the same philosophy. I think.
bluesette82 1 year ago
Matthew 5:39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.
Of course, I still agree that we should protect our families.
crem004 2 years ago
@crem004 That verse is not talking about in response to self defense, it's talking about forgiveness. Actually the bible makes it clear Self Defense is not a sin.
devanaire 1 year ago
I don't completely disagree with Piper though. We should have discernment in our decisions and we should pray to God and ask him for wisdom so if we do come across these situations, we can make a godly decision that is directed by the holy spirit,scripture and not purely on our emotions.
At this moment I'm very careful in what I'm saying because I know that men's souls are at stake here.
dirtysocks007 2 years ago
Jesus was not against self decense and ESPECIALLY not against defending your family.
Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
In my opinion ( I don't have a verse for this at the moment ) If a man doesn't attempt to defend his family in a realistic fashion,then he isn't worthy of his family,and isn't worthy to be called dad because a biblical dad would.
dirtysocks007 2 years ago
Bingo. Anyone who thinks Jesus means you should let your daughter get raped and killed and do nothing is not reading in context
Autry29 2 years ago
@dirtysocks007 How about in Timothy when he says " those who can't provide for those of his household is worse than a heathen." In Exodus it says if you kill a thief who breaks in your house. But obviously, if you can avoid it you should.
devanaire 1 year ago
(This information has been taken by Joseph Farah. Taken from another webpage which is not my own)
Read those verses in context and they support my position. Jesus told Peter he would be committing suicide to choose a fight in this situation as well as undermining God's plan to allow Jesus' death on the cross and resurrection.
dirtysocks007 2 years ago
It is plain and simple, Jesus Christ stated to Peter, when the Peter cut off one of the Jewish solider ear off. Jesus said NO to him. He told him, anyone that pick up a sword, shall perish by the sword. I to like brother John Piper, don't need any weapon to defend my family or myself. God is very soveign. He alone is incontrol, where we are not. He see's what we can not. I don't believe in violent. Where satan does. We just need to depend on Jesus and not in ourselves.
sungmee45 2 years ago
I know. I know. You biblically literate skeptics are going to cite Matthew 26:52-54 how Jesus responded when Peter used his sword to cut off the ear of a servant of the high priest: "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?"
dirtysocks007 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Foolish reasoning. I love his books but man! He says he is in favor of police shooting a person who is hurting someone else but I not a person owning a gun? I guess it's better that a police officer protect my family that if I do it? Hmmm. Makes no since. If you believe that The Lord God would expect you to do nothing while your daughter is getting raped or if your family is in danger than your not WAY out of line.
Autry29 2 years ago
He's saying: try not to kill people, coz they will go to hell, and having a gun may have you killing people. So.... at least TRY not to whac the rapist, murderer, robber, the tutsi guy with a missionary-killing spear. Just TRY, for the sake of your consciousness before Jesus. You gotta TRY. Shoot his both legs, for instance.
lucasdasilvamaria 2 years ago
Get him a taser!
davelikes2playguitar 2 years ago 2
Pepper spray is better. But Praying Spray is the best. Look, if God doesnt keep you safe, doesnt matter how many tanks you have, youre dead of a flu!
lucasdasilvamaria 2 years ago 2
He said you should protect your daughter, but it was his advise not to live with the habbit of using a gun to kill people, you need to listen to this again.
tashaleena 2 years ago
So your saying you he SHOULD protect his daughter? And if the guy HAS a gun how is he gonna do that? You know the answer. Thats number one. Number two, If I own a gun I have a "habbit" of killing people with it? Like cops have a "habbit'' of shooting people because they have them or hunters have a ''habbit'' of killing people every now and then? Rubbish! I heard him load and clear and his reasoning is still has holes in it. Owning a gun does not= WANTING to kill innocent people with them.
Autry29 2 years ago
It's a matter of authority. Governments have the God given authority to carry the sword (or gun, in this case) and to kill.
Self defense is not a mandated, REQUIRED action of the individual. The methods and level of force one can use to protect oneself is up to the individual, and their conviction before God.
He's merely saying just because we CAN have guns doesn't mean we SHOULD or NEED to have one, and that considerations should be made for the SOULS of those attacking us.
sirbean 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
this guy is just a pussy and he doesn't take preparations to protect himself, his family and his possesions
barrettarmorer 3 years ago
maybe it's because he knows that there are things available to him that are more important than himself, his family and his possessions. If you had ever heard anything by John Piper I'm sure you would know of one of his favorite Psalms, Psalm 73, which is of David considering that God trumps all earthly pleasures in totality. you should be ashamed for calling such a godly man such a derogatory name.
Nechobank 2 years ago 2
It doesn't make sense, right? You are not alone. However, things get sort of flipped around when we decide to follow Christ. To live is good, but heaven is better. Also I think he protects his family by being a spiritual example, so that they need not fear death.
davelikes2playguitar 2 years ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
And you know as well as i do. when these people go before God and ask, "we pryed for you to keep us from being speared to death, why didn't you save us from being speared to death?"
The Lords answer will be, "I made sure you had a gun before you went, so why didn't you use them? Why did you waste all the bullets shooting at me?"
ANGLEBOOT 3 years ago
You don't get it... Nate didn't want to kill the tribesmen because they were not saved. They didn't want them to go to hell, and they didn't expect to be saved.
VisionaryAmbition 3 years ago