Added: 11 months ago
From: prchdaword
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  • So you judge Rob as "wrong" on the basis he isnt a Calvinist? Seems like what you're saying, please correct. // I like an open theists question, "yes god is sovereign, but what type of sovereignty does he have?" // All the OMNI's are greek ideas, not hebrew ideas // Traditional evangelical view of hell comes from Plato, the Jews still dont believe this hell view even today // There's dozens of proof texts for "restoration of all things" // Does your bible say "Jesus get 1 sheep and looses 99"?

  • @tintinworld no, Rob Bell is not "wrong because he is not a Calvinist". I clearly took all of my critiques back to the Scriptures and not to "Platonic" philosophy (of which I am familiar with). The "omni's" are clearly taught in Scripture. The "traditional evangelical" idea of hell comes from Jesus who spoke the most about hell in the Bible. If you would like to see my further treatments of hell and this articles, on my channel you are welcomed to look through my blog where I discuss these

  • @prchdaword It seems that you have a naturalised filter of calvinism in your critique. Are you a calvinist? Whilst I ask, I am not intending to label you, rather raise a question for your self-awareness of the way you set up an argument.

  • @tintinworld "Does your Bible say 'Jesus get 1 sheep and looses 99?" no...but then again you are misapplying Jesus' intention of that parable which was to correct and expose the heart and attitude of the Pharisee toward "sinners" ....I'll tell you what my Bible does say in John 10....jesus says that he is the good shepherd and that he looses none of his sheep and it also says that Jesus told the Pharisees "you are NOT my sheep"...Jesus loses NONE of who he came to save.

  • @prchdaword If the "forever" view of hell's heart was exposed, what would it contain?

  • @tintinworld not sure if I understand that question correctly, but I'll attempt at what i think you are asking....the "heart" of the "forever" view is a very high view of the majesty and the holiness of God. This is the same view of God that Isaiah encounter and he condemned himself in the light of it. Before God's holiness none of us can stand. God is infinitely holy and when we sin against God our sin is counted by the dignity of the one whom we sin against. Because God is eternally and....

  • @tintinworld ....and infinitely holy, God does not and CANNOT take sin lightly or as something temporal for God is not a temporal being. He is eternal by his own nature. from our perspective, our sin must be small but God views it from all eternity...with God, there is no "time" per se, even our language fails to say that because we have to use temporal language to say there is no time....either way, God's holiness, his essence and love for and within the trinitarian being of God is at...

  • @tintinworld ...the heart of the "forever" view of God. As a sinner myself, the holiness of God is not the most "cheerful" thing to talk about because I know I couldn't stand before God in my own sin or even my own "righteousness"....his holiness by nature would destroy me as Isaiah said, he was coming undone! I am not a person's judge but it is my responsibility, and yours as well to be faithful to what God has revealed about himself in Scripture. That is my purpose here. Faithfulness to God.

  • I love your vids, but the video frame rate was painful on the eyes ><. Good thing it's more about what you say x)

  • I don't think it needs to be defined in terms of a "greater or lesser reality" it just is. I am going to bow out of this discussion with saying grace and peace be upon you brother and leave you with the following verse: Psalm 145:8-9. I hope our discussion at least opened your heart up a little to living in and giving others the grace He has bestowed upon you. Shalom.

  • are wrong. It is to say that your interpretation cannot be passed off as absolute truth becuase it's not. The reason I can say this with authority is because you are not God, therefore you DO NOT know who will be spending eternity with or away from Him. Those who profess they do are deceiving not only themselves but everyone else who will listen to them.

  • @emerysdaddy9107 Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

  • are just that: interpretations. My foundation for my faith is in the birth, death and resurrection in Jesus Christ. Period. Everything else is just fluff and man made doctrine in an attempt to impose a moral standard on those who don't share the same beliefs as I. I don't believe the Bible was meant for us to use as a tool for manipulation but as a lifeline to know the character of God and his great love for us. This whole debate has not been me trying to say I am right and you

  • literal 24 hour period as we know a day to be now or is one day a thousand years as the old testament says what a day is to the Lord. If you take the latter idea to be true then the earth was created in 7000 years, thus proving evolution. The reason I bring this up is to show you the foundation of my faith. My faith is big enough not to exclude scientific truths just because they are not widely held by the modern evangelical church. And I also believe that I am not God so my interpretations

  • find new meanings within the text. This helps us to continue in conversation and glean fresh outlooks on life and how Jesus would have us live in relationship with each other. Another example of a concept open to interpretation would be the creation narrative found in Genesis. I personally don't take the narrative literally. I believe that God has used evolution as a tool in His creation of the earth and all that is in it. A big debate has always been what is "a day' to God. Is it a

  • @emerysdaddy9107 so the reference to gehenna as an analogy of suffering, was Jesus using it to point to a greater reality or a lesser reality? In revelation, it speaks of the lake which burns with fire, where the devil and his angels are tormented day and night, "forever and ever" and that souls were cast into that lake which burns with fire which is outside the city of God that came down.....Jesus, as the revealer in revelation spoke those equally to John

  • to do quite the opposite which in my opinion is anti Jesus. I agree with you that there are fundamental truths that are not open to debate, ie John 14:6, Jesus is the ONLY way. I firmly believe that. I firmly believe that Jesus is the son of God and died for all human sin. Much of what Jesus says in the gospels though are said through parables which are open to interpretation. I believe that He did this on purpose so throughout human history we would continue to seek Him and continue to

  • I meant the Bible is open to interpretation on a lot of levels as a whole, but the doctrine of hell is one of them. One verse is the one I pointed out in a previous post.  Jesus was using quite literally the town garbage dump as an analogy in my opinion. Not necessarily speaking about a physical place of torment for eternity. Again, my interpretation. All I'm saying is I prefer to interpret the Bible from a position of grace, acceptance, forgiveness and love. Your interpretation seeks

  • the fact that the Bible is open to interpretation on a lot of levels and when discussing the doctrine of hell it's not our place to use the Bible as a judgement of others. When we do this we are using it not as a tool to know the character of God and to help us in living a life of righteousness but rather a measuring rod to judge. In my opinion we have far more important things to deal with within our own selves than to be concentrating on determining who will spend eternity with Him and

  • @emerysdaddy9107 can you give me an example of where the Bible is "open to interpretation on a lot of levels" when it comes to hell? what passages do you have in mind?

    I agree that we need to handle our own, but would you not agree that lies (without making a judgment of who is right or wrong here) do infect our souls especially if we build our lives around them? What if we believe lies about God? Are not those the most dangerous? Doesn't God want us to know the truth and not fumble with...

  • @emerysdaddy9107 ....interpretations? At a fundamental level, understand that if the Bible is "open for interpretation", then either God has not really spoken in it or God is purposely leaving us in confusion. The clarity of God's revelation must be maintained....so the issue really is first has God spoken on this matter with clarity and authority? If he hasn't , then you have to acknowledge that "your guess is as good as mine" making both EQUALLY VALID since EMOTIONS are the judge....

  • @emerysdaddy9107 .....essentially,you would have to hold to some form of subjectivism, which logically takes away your right to invalidate my position, or any one elses position with any authority at all. So the issue is Has God spoken with clarity and authority about heaven and hell, what they are like, how long they last, and who gets to each one and how.....if the Bible is "open for interpretation" then, you must say "no, he hasn't" in which, again, your GUESS is as good as mine.

  • Also a proper exegesis of the term "hell" needs to be applied when interpreting because, as in Mark 9:33-34 when Jesus mentions the word, he is talking about Gehenna which I'm sure you know was a physical place which the Jews used as a garbage dump. There was a fire that was always burning. We have translated this into the "lake of fire" and used it to represent an eternal place of torment but that's not at all what Jesus meant it to be in this particular passage. Again it all boils down to

  • I'm not saying you think you are saved by your doctrinal understanding, I'm saying you are using it as a measuring rod to count others out. 1) How is that bringing the good news? 2) Where in scripture is that your call, your right or even your assumption to do so? There is but one judge. Funny thing is, hell is not even close to being the main theme in the Biblical narrative. The overwhelming theme is God engaging in creation to redeem it.

  • And by the way, the Bible isn't the authority you have made it my friend. It is ONE tool (the best one in fact) we can use to know the character of God and how Christ would have us live but it's not the ONLY tool and a lot of folks have made it an idol. Good luck with sola scriptura. That is a man made phrase to stroke ones ego in being "right." Your pride speaks volumes my friend...

  • to believe. The "turn or burn" gospel has no room for love or grace but seeks only to stroke your own ego of being "right." You want to believe that God will uplift you and turn away others that didn't act, think and live like you. In short, you want to be vindicated by your "right belief" in who God was. I believe God is going to blow away all of our expectations and leave a lot of people questioning "why?" Let God be God brother, you seek Jesus. Shalom.

    

  • @emerysdaddy9107 ummmmm....no, I am not saved by the correctness of my doctrine at all my friend...I am not a doctrinal Pharisee...I take heat from my own clan for believing that people outside the Reformed camp can be saved. Jesus saves, not your own correctness; your own doctrinal righteousness. But at the same time, Jesus does teach truths about him that tell us whether or not we are truly believing in God, and obeying his word....Jesus himself taught the most on the subject of hell...

  • @emerysdaddy9107 ....that in itself is something worth pondering. Jesus gave the most horrific scenes of hell described in the NT....so I have sought Jesus on the subject and I have listened to what he says about it and who goes there. Jesus describes it as equally eternal as heaven is; so to say that hell is not eternal is likewise to have to consistently believe that heaven is not eternal either for the same words describe both....

  • You can't just pick out an arbitrary aspect of life and box God in with it. MY God is bigger than that. That's the problem with theology like yours brother, you reduce God to a being that you can fathom with your human mind. Again, MY God is bigger than that. Of course your going to believe that God is out for retribution against all of creation for breaking his law, that's how YOU would react. MY God is greater than that. As Rob says, the good news is better than what we have led people

  • @emerysdaddy9107 but how have you escaped "boxing God" in when you yourself have to fathom God with your own human mind? Yes, God is transcendant which is why revelation is necessary and God has revealed himself and spoken in history and his words are preserved in Scripture alone. I don't think you have nailed down at all how I would react at all either my friend...

  • @prchdaword curious, but what other sources can you provide that are "God-breathed" that are useful for doctrine, reproof, correction and training in righteousness (2 Tim. 3:16)?

  • God will allow certain circumstances to happen to us in our lives that will cause us look for Him but in the end the choice is ours. We can reject Him and we do. I do everyday as do you my friend. Your view of God almost caused me to give up on God altogether because of Christians like you who have treated me with manipulation and outright hatred and contempt. That is not of God. Thankfully God has shown me His true character and I have learned to ignore interpretations such as yours.

  • @emerysdaddy9107 well, then you must think of your God this way: think of God watching you, his child, running headlong into a traffic filled street...now think, your interpretation of God (and parenting, if you are consistent) is for God to allow you to walk right into the street and get killed. My understanding of God in the Bible is that God, overrides our "freedom" and runs after us, grabs us and throws us out of the traffic sacrificing his own life to infallibly save ours.

  • @emerysdaddy9107 Whose God is more loving? the one who won't let his people perish or the one who is indifferent, who doesn't care what choices we make, "so long as freedom wins....so long as love wins"? The God Rob Bell presents is a God who is indifferent in his "love", he doesnt seem to want to do what we all know true love does: it goes out of its way, and even imposes its way for what it loves to protect it at all costs. I'm sorry, but your "god" does not know what love is.

  • It seems to me you have not been given a "heart of flesh" but a "heart of stone." You are in dire need of a paradigm shift brother. I am thankful that you are not God. You would be wise to realize the same.

  • and others will not (in your opinion). Your interpretation is ONE amongst many and a dangerous one at that. I pray God begins to show you who He REALLY is and you allow Him to move in your life and begin to give others the love and grace that has been given to you my friend.

  • If God didn't respect our free will, which he created in us by the way, then there never would've been "the fall." Sin would've never been introduced into this world and we would all still be running around in the Garden of Eden. Your interpretation is flawed my friend. This hellified doctrine that the chuch has been preaching HAS TO STOP. There is no room for love and grace in the words you preach. It's almost like you and other Christians like you rejoice in the fact that you will be saved

  • @emerysdaddy9107 now, I notice that you did not interact at all with the Bible and demonstrate where my interpretation of God is flawed....would you be willing to demonstrate this through exegesis of Scripture and such? If you will not give weight to Scripture, then your opinion holds no weight compared to the revelation of God in the Scriptures my friend....Sola Scriptura.

  • You win on theology. Rob Bell wins on production value.

  • @Prchdaword - If God didn't override my heart I never would have chosen Him! Bell is straight up WRONG!

  • @newbirth35 I couldn't agree with you more!!!

  • So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

    has this rob bell charactor ever read the bible?

  • Many people want to be told that God will give them prosperity. Others like the idea of a little god who requires nothing from them. They like the idea that they can have eternal afterlife in Heaven, but they don't want to be warned about sin and hell. This is why people like Rob Bell and Joel Osteen have such a big audience. Their philosophical little gods appeal to a wide range of people. But truthfully, narrow is the Way to eternal life.

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