the first recorded mention of prize fighting was in1681 when the the wearing of weapons became less common. the german unarmed combat of the middle age large ly came from folk wrestling the got weaponized (more stand of bone locking much like chinese chin na and tradtition jujitsu) the folk wrestling is the msot common martial art in history as it is the most universal of Cultural Universalis, need to want to grapple come from us being monkeys
take boxing for example. greco roman boxing was banned and hte weapon practice along side it change and empty hand combant is demphisized greatly in dark age europe as more time was devote to armed combat. the revival came with the venicians (look up 1595club as the closes possible example) but that was not the source of english striking based combat.
the reason y martial arts idea seem soo similar cross culturally is not becasue on culture injects it into another culture in anot continent and expected to last , that not possible. what does happen is neigboring culture borrow let it evolve organicly amongts themselve till it nolonger embodies the same attribute it once had. thus making it new or distict
on the topic of the romans influencing european martial arts. its is as far as i can say, extinct. those european martial arts that do claim decent are shady. as for german school and any other post rome MA they decened independant of rome influence. one reason is that hand to hand combat was banned in the later roman empire and boxing tradition fade from roman culture as fewer ad nfewr ppl could profit of learning it.
also i wasnt uncommon for many cultures around the world to have no holds bar competition even in the east especially in china were made matches were in the end death matches were to men signe a waiver showing that there will not be blood feud post fight. alot of dipostition againt easter arts like forms and memorization are actaully not part of the original traditions (forms yes but the unnessacary emphasis is modern or brought on by chines fiction writers)
i actually wish that cribb era fighting could be reproduced. there actually great examples of what venetian boxing may have looked like if u look up 1595 club in youtube. eastern martial arts is subjected to woo and hype the has degraded it from the formal effective age(a good deal of concepts have been recovered though from bruce lees personal insights and flexablitiy)
@infokemp escrima has only up 20% or so european martial arts influence ive seen spanish fencing and only few concepts were adopted filipino is greatly native and tribal arts being continued.
@kaindrg Thank you for your view - it would be an interesting video as to which military arts where the best as Spain conquered the phillopines - perhaps you could do a video response?
@infokemp im camera shy :D but some eskrimados do admit to influence from other spanish colonies ie mexico(though reliability of that claim has yet to be seen). many people think of the stick use as blunt force but they forget that filipinos employ the tips for thrust simulations(here is wher ethe rapier is evident)
@infokemp regarding the west is the birth place of martial arts that hypothosis is based on a reaction to the modern usage of martial arts refering to asiatic ones. but both are largely nonsensical since anyone whose done simple research in to anthropology noes Martial arts even complex ones are Cultural universalis meaning all cultures have a 100% chance of developing it independantly.
@infokemp the theory is largely bas on the folklore of the buddhist monk teaching shaolin yogic arts which has be disproven 100 fold over by chinese cultural historian as martial arts in china is traced back to hunter and gatheres learning a trade of self preservation. while in alexanders time greek roman boxing was a traslation of sheild and spear tech according to spartan records so would not be adopted by indians who fought differently
@infokemp as for superior military arts neither art is better that they other. the concepts are what allow the figter to forge him self into a weapon sure the spaniards conqured but they never fully tamed the land even their conquistador ferdinan maggellan was killed in a simple ambush be King lapu lapu.
@infokemp as u delf into martial history and ignore the bs and hype ones realizes all evolve quite the same way as venitian and british boxing both evolve out of region interpretations of weapon motion made into empy hand same is said about the greek boxing as the lead hand reps the shield and the read the thrust of the spear.
@infokemp my understanding of it come from 5 year of filtering out bs and reality. and i have great athro reasources to go to (friends, professors.). and as for jeet kune do bruce lee borrowed more from sport fencing less practical than traditional englsih broad sword fencing. his use of it was the suffle and the raised rear for easier entry for bruce lee he only adopted the out wardly apparence of boxing and fencing but rarely the concepts
@infokemp though he did emphasize the use of concept blends when he ultimately did was add what highlight his prexisting wing chun concept like forward entry was made more effective with the fencing suffle. the variotion of boxing punches lead to him beingable to engage the oppnests centre from more angles. he did this both knowingly and unknowingly.
Did you know that black people in Africa learned martial arts 2000+ years ago from soldiers in Alexander the Great's army? And they developed their own style from what they learned.
interesting thoughts on the origin of west or eastern MA. I'm so mixed in my studies but I can say that most of my training has been in Texas, where the population is generally bigger than me, and more than half have a sort of aggressive hot blood that is probably courtesy of Mexican warrior genes. So that to me is a big part of my personal MA cultural roots.
Interesting thought. I think it's also likely that there was simultaneous development of martial arts in different areas of the world. What interests me is the melding of martial arts. You have the camps of people who are so solidly committed to their art that they constantly seek to defend "traditionalism" as if the word itself guarantees victory in a fight. Then you have poeple who (many of them growing up as martial arts lovers) are open minded and accept knowledge from any proven source.
Im still gonna stick with that peoples bodies can only bend so many ways. Pankration was made by a people of science, and Shuai Jiao (Chinese grappling which is the orgin of Jujitsu) was made by the Chinese, also a people of science. The tactic is leverage over strength. They both know this is true and perfected it. It makes sense alot of it would look the same
It's worth considering where Pankration originated from though... It's also considered that whilst Alexandra the Great was conquering his way through Asia he and his men encountered unarmed combat being practiced by local Hindi tribes. So you could go full circle and say westerners learned techniques from the east ?
Also it's worth noting that all martial wrestling was done not competitive nor unarmed. Just to render enemy immobile whilst punching through armour with your rondike etc ..
Yeah i think the West did create Martial Arts.....like Double handed swordfighting, sword and shield, lance, etc....
The thing is, unlike the east we didn't combine it with philosophy and make a bizarre lifestyle out of it, we just used it for what is was worth, then threw it out when we didnt need it anymore and turned the rest into sports....Fencing, Boxing, Archery, Javelin, Wrestling, etc...I'm half Anglo/Half phoenician, Phoenicians used to war with greeks, and also had sporting stadiums.
pretty sure back than the martial arts didnt spread they all learned their own forms of fighting thats why kung fu is so much different than pankration or w/e and really cant say anyone invented it really unless u say the first caveman to learn how to swing and fight could be considered the inventor of martial arts lol.
I understand your point but it seems that to me that just as the Russians learned Tank tactics from Germany by fighting military skills in the past where learnt by the defeated from the victors. You make a spear I make a shield, You are a Roman soldier & know pankration I fight against you but I learn from you.
If you speak about origins, I think it came from hunting & athetics, military skill is about hunting skills for hunting humans.
yah your right so i dont think its right to say martial arts spreaded or w/e cause really everyone probably developed their first weapon martial arts from hunting or something also i would think the oldest civilizations would be the first to create a fighting system probably somewhere around mesopotamia or north west africa.
Another interesting idea, I think if you combined bareknuckle boxing with catch wrestling, that COULD be the closest thing to real Pankration. Those two styles were the most brutal modern forms of striking and grappling, respectively. Eventually they each got more rules and precautions, branching out into modern boxing, amateur wrestling, etc. But their original forms were literally anything goes.
In fact, the two were actually very similar, in both content and history. Even though BKB emphasized striking, you could use anything, including grappling, to set up a knock out or submission. Likewise for CW. So for BKB, everything was a set up for some knockout punch, and for CW, everything was a set up for some submission/pin hold. Sorry for commenting so much, but you are seriously the first person I've seen on Youtube to even remotely talk about this, and I need to get it off my chest.
Very interesting video. I've actually been researching this a lot lately. It's interesting in a way how Pankration was the original fight science then branched out east to Asia and north to Europe. I think, in Asia, many of them were modified to be flashy, perhaps for ritualistic and artistic reasons, thus "martial arts." In Europe, it seems like they kept the simplicity of it intact, but had to modify it for sword combat, meaning less strikes and more grappling (Kampfringen).
So the two ways of fighting in Europe, for a while, were fencing and wrestling, as opposed to boxing and wrestling. But when sword combat faded out and strikes were once again applicable, boxing used a lot of fencing science, which explains BKB's use of parrying as opposed to blocking (like modern sport boxing). Now we've come full circle with MMA being in the spotlight and shown to the whole world. Although its use of many rules and gloves still makes it not quite like Pankration.
You make a good point about the use of fencing skills in boxing, I think its wise that MMA has some rules since pankration had a (terminator style) a strike that could punch through the stomuch muscle wall! Also eye gorging was perfectly legitimate.
Ahh yeah, I remember reading about a Pankratist who killed his opponent with a spearhand to the stomach. Insane. I wish there was a way to genuinely recreate the old form of Pankration, but it seems that a lot of it was lost and only inferred through pictures on vases and descriptions written down by the ancients. I've seen some of the modern versions, but they just look like a combination of boxing and jujutsu. Meh... I have a sick fascination with brutal fighting styles :P
the first recorded mention of prize fighting was in1681 when the the wearing of weapons became less common. the german unarmed combat of the middle age large ly came from folk wrestling the got weaponized (more stand of bone locking much like chinese chin na and tradtition jujitsu) the folk wrestling is the msot common martial art in history as it is the most universal of Cultural Universalis, need to want to grapple come from us being monkeys
kaindrg 1 year ago
@kaindrg Excellent comment!
All the best
David
infokemp 1 year ago
take boxing for example. greco roman boxing was banned and hte weapon practice along side it change and empty hand combant is demphisized greatly in dark age europe as more time was devote to armed combat. the revival came with the venicians (look up 1595club as the closes possible example) but that was not the source of english striking based combat.
kaindrg 1 year ago
the reason y martial arts idea seem soo similar cross culturally is not becasue on culture injects it into another culture in anot continent and expected to last , that not possible. what does happen is neigboring culture borrow let it evolve organicly amongts themselve till it nolonger embodies the same attribute it once had. thus making it new or distict
kaindrg 1 year ago
on the topic of the romans influencing european martial arts. its is as far as i can say, extinct. those european martial arts that do claim decent are shady. as for german school and any other post rome MA they decened independant of rome influence. one reason is that hand to hand combat was banned in the later roman empire and boxing tradition fade from roman culture as fewer ad nfewr ppl could profit of learning it.
kaindrg 1 year ago
also i wasnt uncommon for many cultures around the world to have no holds bar competition even in the east especially in china were made matches were in the end death matches were to men signe a waiver showing that there will not be blood feud post fight. alot of dipostition againt easter arts like forms and memorization are actaully not part of the original traditions (forms yes but the unnessacary emphasis is modern or brought on by chines fiction writers)
kaindrg 1 year ago
i actually wish that cribb era fighting could be reproduced. there actually great examples of what venetian boxing may have looked like if u look up 1595 club in youtube. eastern martial arts is subjected to woo and hype the has degraded it from the formal effective age(a good deal of concepts have been recovered though from bruce lees personal insights and flexablitiy)
kaindrg 1 year ago
I have it narrowed down to Filipino martial arts, or Western martial arts. The two will likely have a similar curriculum.
Donatellangelo 1 year ago
@Donatellangelo Well eskrima comes from Spanish and German Western Martial Arts such as rapier fencing - see Talhoffer vids from MEMAG.
All the best & Excellent comment, Merry Christmas
David
infokemp 1 year ago
@infokemp You know you're probably right, and before that they probably used obsidian too. So, I guess these are some original mixed martial arts. :D
Donatellangelo 1 year ago
@Donatellangelo Thanks
All the best
David
infokemp 1 year ago
@infokemp escrima has only up 20% or so european martial arts influence ive seen spanish fencing and only few concepts were adopted filipino is greatly native and tribal arts being continued.
kaindrg 1 year ago
@kaindrg Thank you for your view - it would be an interesting video as to which military arts where the best as Spain conquered the phillopines - perhaps you could do a video response?
All the best
David
infokemp 1 year ago
@infokemp im camera shy :D but some eskrimados do admit to influence from other spanish colonies ie mexico(though reliability of that claim has yet to be seen). many people think of the stick use as blunt force but they forget that filipinos employ the tips for thrust simulations(here is wher ethe rapier is evident)
kaindrg 1 year ago
@infokemp regarding the west is the birth place of martial arts that hypothosis is based on a reaction to the modern usage of martial arts refering to asiatic ones. but both are largely nonsensical since anyone whose done simple research in to anthropology noes Martial arts even complex ones are Cultural universalis meaning all cultures have a 100% chance of developing it independantly.
kaindrg 1 year ago
@infokemp the theory is largely bas on the folklore of the buddhist monk teaching shaolin yogic arts which has be disproven 100 fold over by chinese cultural historian as martial arts in china is traced back to hunter and gatheres learning a trade of self preservation. while in alexanders time greek roman boxing was a traslation of sheild and spear tech according to spartan records so would not be adopted by indians who fought differently
kaindrg 1 year ago
@infokemp as for superior military arts neither art is better that they other. the concepts are what allow the figter to forge him self into a weapon sure the spaniards conqured but they never fully tamed the land even their conquistador ferdinan maggellan was killed in a simple ambush be King lapu lapu.
kaindrg 1 year ago
@infokemp as u delf into martial history and ignore the bs and hype ones realizes all evolve quite the same way as venitian and british boxing both evolve out of region interpretations of weapon motion made into empy hand same is said about the greek boxing as the lead hand reps the shield and the read the thrust of the spear.
kaindrg 1 year ago
@kaindrg Excellent comment on the history of boxing - it is notable that English fencing influenced both boxing and Jeet kwun do.
All the best
David
infokemp 1 year ago
@infokemp my understanding of it come from 5 year of filtering out bs and reality. and i have great athro reasources to go to (friends, professors.). and as for jeet kune do bruce lee borrowed more from sport fencing less practical than traditional englsih broad sword fencing. his use of it was the suffle and the raised rear for easier entry for bruce lee he only adopted the out wardly apparence of boxing and fencing but rarely the concepts
kaindrg 1 year ago
@infokemp though he did emphasize the use of concept blends when he ultimately did was add what highlight his prexisting wing chun concept like forward entry was made more effective with the fencing suffle. the variotion of boxing punches lead to him beingable to engage the oppnests centre from more angles. he did this both knowingly and unknowingly.
kaindrg 1 year ago
@infokemp boxing is from broadsword i mainly from the sportified version called cudgeling i believe.
kaindrg 1 year ago
Did you know that black people in Africa learned martial arts 2000+ years ago from soldiers in Alexander the Great's army? And they developed their own style from what they learned.
froooooot6 1 year ago
@froooooot6 interesting thank you for your excellent comment - I know senegaleeze wrestling is very effective as well.
All the best
David
infokemp 1 year ago
5/5
interesting thoughts on the origin of west or eastern MA. I'm so mixed in my studies but I can say that most of my training has been in Texas, where the population is generally bigger than me, and more than half have a sort of aggressive hot blood that is probably courtesy of Mexican warrior genes. So that to me is a big part of my personal MA cultural roots.
wmpyr 1 year ago
Interesting thought. I think it's also likely that there was simultaneous development of martial arts in different areas of the world. What interests me is the melding of martial arts. You have the camps of people who are so solidly committed to their art that they constantly seek to defend "traditionalism" as if the word itself guarantees victory in a fight. Then you have poeple who (many of them growing up as martial arts lovers) are open minded and accept knowledge from any proven source.
dmower397 2 years ago
Im still gonna stick with that peoples bodies can only bend so many ways. Pankration was made by a people of science, and Shuai Jiao (Chinese grappling which is the orgin of Jujitsu) was made by the Chinese, also a people of science. The tactic is leverage over strength. They both know this is true and perfected it. It makes sense alot of it would look the same
GuamKomudo 2 years ago
You are spot on all the evidence points out that martial arts went east rather than the other way round.
Yehbytheway 2 years ago
It's worth considering where Pankration originated from though... It's also considered that whilst Alexandra the Great was conquering his way through Asia he and his men encountered unarmed combat being practiced by local Hindi tribes. So you could go full circle and say westerners learned techniques from the east ?
Also it's worth noting that all martial wrestling was done not competitive nor unarmed. Just to render enemy immobile whilst punching through armour with your rondike etc ..
Shirckensei 2 years ago
Yeah i think the West did create Martial Arts.....like Double handed swordfighting, sword and shield, lance, etc....
The thing is, unlike the east we didn't combine it with philosophy and make a bizarre lifestyle out of it, we just used it for what is was worth, then threw it out when we didnt need it anymore and turned the rest into sports....Fencing, Boxing, Archery, Javelin, Wrestling, etc...I'm half Anglo/Half phoenician, Phoenicians used to war with greeks, and also had sporting stadiums.
JusticeAlliance 2 years ago
pretty sure back than the martial arts didnt spread they all learned their own forms of fighting thats why kung fu is so much different than pankration or w/e and really cant say anyone invented it really unless u say the first caveman to learn how to swing and fight could be considered the inventor of martial arts lol.
ralphyboy1 2 years ago
I understand your point but it seems that to me that just as the Russians learned Tank tactics from Germany by fighting military skills in the past where learnt by the defeated from the victors. You make a spear I make a shield, You are a Roman soldier & know pankration I fight against you but I learn from you.
If you speak about origins, I think it came from hunting & athetics, military skill is about hunting skills for hunting humans.
infokemp 2 years ago
yah your right so i dont think its right to say martial arts spreaded or w/e cause really everyone probably developed their first weapon martial arts from hunting or something also i would think the oldest civilizations would be the first to create a fighting system probably somewhere around mesopotamia or north west africa.
ralphyboy1 2 years ago
Another interesting idea, I think if you combined bareknuckle boxing with catch wrestling, that COULD be the closest thing to real Pankration. Those two styles were the most brutal modern forms of striking and grappling, respectively. Eventually they each got more rules and precautions, branching out into modern boxing, amateur wrestling, etc. But their original forms were literally anything goes.
Hatchyack 2 years ago
In fact, the two were actually very similar, in both content and history. Even though BKB emphasized striking, you could use anything, including grappling, to set up a knock out or submission. Likewise for CW. So for BKB, everything was a set up for some knockout punch, and for CW, everything was a set up for some submission/pin hold. Sorry for commenting so much, but you are seriously the first person I've seen on Youtube to even remotely talk about this, and I need to get it off my chest.
Hatchyack 2 years ago
Give this vid a rating, I my be making a sequel to it showing some fight moves.
infokemp 2 years ago
Very interesting video. I've actually been researching this a lot lately. It's interesting in a way how Pankration was the original fight science then branched out east to Asia and north to Europe. I think, in Asia, many of them were modified to be flashy, perhaps for ritualistic and artistic reasons, thus "martial arts." In Europe, it seems like they kept the simplicity of it intact, but had to modify it for sword combat, meaning less strikes and more grappling (Kampfringen).
Hatchyack 2 years ago
So the two ways of fighting in Europe, for a while, were fencing and wrestling, as opposed to boxing and wrestling. But when sword combat faded out and strikes were once again applicable, boxing used a lot of fencing science, which explains BKB's use of parrying as opposed to blocking (like modern sport boxing). Now we've come full circle with MMA being in the spotlight and shown to the whole world. Although its use of many rules and gloves still makes it not quite like Pankration.
Hatchyack 2 years ago
You make a good point about the use of fencing skills in boxing, I think its wise that MMA has some rules since pankration had a (terminator style) a strike that could punch through the stomuch muscle wall! Also eye gorging was perfectly legitimate.
infokemp 2 years ago
Ahh yeah, I remember reading about a Pankratist who killed his opponent with a spearhand to the stomach. Insane. I wish there was a way to genuinely recreate the old form of Pankration, but it seems that a lot of it was lost and only inferred through pictures on vases and descriptions written down by the ancients. I've seen some of the modern versions, but they just look like a combination of boxing and jujutsu. Meh... I have a sick fascination with brutal fighting styles :P
Hatchyack 2 years ago
You should make your own vid on this subject.
infokemp 2 years ago