mark is a nice guy,,,no doubt about that,but you see he has been under the same hypnotism as all the others.including me.i still remember the guilt they have put me through.ofcourse they did not intentionally I HOPE but it was like venom and not good.annie saw the devil and his demons but dont all drug addicts?its his and her reality but not the reality of everybody,.and saying we have the only truth and only way is very arrogant.bb everybody.
Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." John 20:21-23. Sorry Mark, try again.
Pastor Mark Driscoll just nailed it here! He has a gift of speaking, telling the truth, making us think about things we've never given much though about and being extremely articulate!!
God IS obligated to His people, for He has given His Word, and He MUST keep His Word. For His own sake He will bring it to pass. He bought us with His Blood, but He has obligated Himself to care for us because He Is good and we trust Him.
Theology students have theories based upon men's doctrines rather than on firsthand knowledge of the Lord. Jesus needs us because He has chosen to need us. May you all meet Jesus so you can know Him truly rather than just facts about Him.
Everything Catholics do with a priest (as far as confession and all that), they could do with a Christian friend (James 5:16). Even if Catholics WERE correct that only priests are allowed to do this, the poor theology surrounding it is untenable (Hail Marys, purgatory, Co-Mediatrix, works FOR salvation, etc). Hence the Protestant Reformation: Catholicism long ago gave up on Scriptural theology (as per their views on sola scriptura).
@andrewdreiling11 It's the belief that Mary played a part in the redemption of the world, and that she is a valid mediatrix (feminine mediator) between God and man. Both are obviously heresies, but it is no secret that Catholicism often puts Mary on an equal level with God/Jesus, in theology, art, and elsewhere. I've read this stems from ancient paganism concerning mother-goddess traditions, which infiltrated Christianity (along with much of Roman paganism) after the Edict of Milan...
Hmmm... I read the conversation between @stpooh and @ChristianDefence. How do expiation and propitiation help one who has been victimized when the abuser is not willing to repent?
@stpooh Your extrapolation does not logically follow towards your conclusions presented. Nor is he implying at any stage that Christians deny any feelings of badness.
@ChristianDefence I watched it again, and I have no idea what you are referring to. At 1:12 he says "non-Christians can feel bad". He then says you "feel bad because you're bad". My conclusions are logical. Those who believe they are above feeling "bad" deny their feelings. This also can influence inflation of the ego, by believing you are above "bad feelings". If he did not mean that Christians cannot "feel bad", then I am sorry if I misunderstood him.
@stpooh Still don't follow. I'm not trying to represent or defend Mark Driscoll here, I'm just trying to see what you're saying.
"non-Christians can feel bad" - I think Mark here means the potential of feeling bad, not that they always "will" feel bad. Next, he uses an one example: "you feel bad because you're bad". I think you're reading in too much detail in what he isn't saying. I'll post the logical statement in my next comment as to what I mean.
@ChristianDefence OK, I see your point. The way I wrote this is technically an over generalization. However, when he explicitly states "that's because NON-Christians can feel bad", he seems to imply that true Christians don't feel bad, and if you feel bad, it is because you are not a true Christian. If this is not what he meant, then please tell me what his point is.
@stpooh When he refers to non-Christians, I don't immediately think about non-Christians being the opposite to Christians, on the contrary, I don't even make any comparison at all.
The same analogy is like saying if apples feel hard; then non-apples can't feel hard. This logic doesn't follow.
His point is: Jesus is your high priest, don't try to make up for things, just repentant.
@stpooh If Jesus is your high priest, it means you can get your sins forgiven directly from God, the Holy Spirit washes you clean from the effects of sin - e.g. guilt and shame that makes one feel bad.
This means, you are no longer condemned, you are set free from the bondage of sin, you are washed clean from sin, sin that makes us feel bad, and even though we all fail, Jesus intercedes for us as Christians under a continual process of sanctification (to become more and more like Jesus).
@ChristianDefence Thank you, but that was not my question. Is he saying that if Jesus is your high priest, you will no longer feel bad? Here is my concern: When Pastor Driscoll states that "NON-Christians can feel bad" he seems to imply that if Jesus is your high priest you will not feel bad. He also states that people who feel bad are bad. I work with people who feel bad despite the fact that they are strong Christians. Many have been victimized by others through no fault of their own...
@stpooh I have exams so I don't have time to respond after I post this.
I also work with teenagers who have been victimised. The question you have proposed is not a 'yes' or 'no' question, but requires elaboration. Driscoll was not presenting a gospel here, he was just giving a cultural analysis of non-Christians, in particularly, celebrities.
If you are looking for a message, you need to share the gospel with people. Propiation and expiation.
Mark is very misled when it comes to Catholicism. I was raised Catholic like he was, then spent 11 years in the protestant, charismatic side of our faith. Yet, the Holy Spirit has led me back to Catholicism. During this time I have been seeking truth and some things are hard to understand, like confession or baptism, or even Mary. However, Mark, still having misconceptions about these things, shows a lot of animosity towards the Catholic Church.
@akdoc11 It is really sad to see him diss, for lack of a better term, how Catholic brothers and sisters practice our faith. After being on both sides of the spectrum, and continuing to seek the truth, the Catholic Church is full of rich tradition, all based on the Bible mind you, and has existed since Christ's Resurrection. Also, mind you, Driscoll's denomination is not even a couple of hundred years in the making, yet he believes it to be the ultimate truth. Hmmm?
@akdoc11 The principles of the Protestant beliefs are actually catholic in nature, nor are they new, after all; it sprung from the "reformation" of Catholic teaching. It's a shame that the two are almost viewed as enemies. I think Mark sometimes wants to pick on the extremes, generalise, to make a point. There may be some Catholics who adhere to his definition (of course, they'd be viewed as heretical from both sides) but they do exist.
@ChristianDefence The bad thing about his picking on extremes is that he can, and has, severely mislead thousands of people who heard this sermon or watched it online and believed him. He speaks truth on a lot of topics, but this is not one of them. It's dangerous to say things like this if you are wrong.
We must follow Jesus, and Jesus said, "...to [the apostles] again: Peace be to you. As the Father has sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained" (John 20:21-23).
This sure sounds a lot like Jesus instituted the sacrament of Confession, which this preacher bashes. I pray that the Lord leads all of his sheep to his Church
@cburton103 the Sacrament is Confession to a Priest because He absolves you, whether your heart is in it or not. How does the Priest know your heart and have the authority to absolve you? Biblical repentance is confessing your sin to God. Also, confessing to the people you hurt to reconcile with them
@alniea In the Bible we are told to confess our sins to God and to others (people you hurt, priests, etc). The priest cannot really know your heart, but must hear your confession, because as we see in John 20, Jesus gives the apostles the choice to forgive or retain sins. Also, any serious Catholic is going to be sorry for offending the Lord in any way.
What do you think John 20:21-23 means? Jesus gave the authority to forgive sins to the apostles here - it seems quite clear. God bless.
@cburton103 Learn about the body of Christ in the New Testament. All believers are part of the body. The Bible says to confess our sins to one another. Only God, however, can forgive sins. There is no apostolic auhority. Jesus died for you on the cross to forgive ALLthe sins of the world. We do not need earthly meiators. We need Christ, who died and rose again that we might have eternal life.
@pegcage Will you address the question of what John 20:21-23 means? I can't seem to find a Protestant of the Fundamentalist type that will give me an honest answer. Most do as you have done and tell me to go look at another verse. I agree with every word the Bible says, therefore I must look at the entire Bible in context. I will not ignore one single verse. Therefore, let us start here at the verses I have already brought up. If you'd like to bring up others after addressing this one, feel free
@cburton103 John 20:19-23 The authority Jesus bestowed parallels that given first to Peter (in Matthew 16:16-19) and then to the Twelve (Matthew 18:18). It was fulfilled in the disciples' preaching ministry in Acts. Nothing is taught here about papal infallibility or apostolic sucession.
@cburton103 John 20:23 - The expressions 'they are forgiven' and 'it is withheld' represent perfect-tense verbs in Greek and could also be translated, "they have been forgiven" and "it has been withheld", since the perfect gives the sense of completed past action with continuing results in the present. The idea is not that individual Christians or churches have authority on their own to forgive or not forgive people, but rather that as the church proclaims the gospel message of (cont...)
@ChristianDefence I understand the significance of the verb tense used here. It's saying (similarly to the verses you point out in Matthew's Gospel) that when the apostles make a decision, God will have already honored it in heaven. Your interpretation is a big jump from the actual text, and you fail to mention that Jesus says, "if YOU forgive anyone's sins". Please address what this means honestly. If it doesn't mean what the Church says it does, why did all Christians understand it this way?
@cburton103 I was looking at the whole passage, where have I made a big jump from the actual text? This passage more focusses on the Holy Spirit and the work of the Spirit, why won't you look into that? Why do you insist on emphasising certain words from one word? How do you come with the conclusion that "all Christians understand it this way"? Perhaps you're the one jumping from the actual text? But I'll address your question anyway. (cont...)
@ChristianDefence If you disagree with my claim that the early Church is distinctively Catholic, feel free to read the Early Church Fathers at newadvent . com. Please tell me which letter they wrote that does not sound distinctively Catholic and why. May God bless you and draw you home to his One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
@cburton103 My understanding of John 20:23 "if you forgive the sins..." Jesus bestowed on His followers authority to announce access of disbarment from God's kingdom, why? Based on the people's reception or denial of the gospel message. For those who reject Jesus, His messengers are commissioned to say that they do not have forgiveness of sins. I think it's a far cry to extrapolate further meaning to that.
@ChristianDefence The text says "Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained". Notice how Jesus says "you forgive", not "you announce them disbarred from God's kingdom", or something to that effect. Jesus actually uses the apostles as the instruments through which he forgives sins.
As far as the unanimous voice of the early Church, check out this article: catholic.com/tracts/confession
@cburton103 This article is about the confession of sins, which I agree with, but irrespective: what does the passage say? To the disciples he says, "Receive the Holy Spirit". The power is here given to all Christians - not on the pope, bishops, priests, and monks. Christ speaks neither of priests nor of monks but says, "receive the Holy Spirit". Whoever has the Holy Spirit, power is given to him, that is, to everyone who is a Christian. This does not mean anyone can institute confession however
@cburton103 to forgive sins or to retain sins, concerns those who confess and receive more than those who are to impart the absolution, where we are to serve our neighbour. For in all services the greatest is to release from sin, to deliver from the devil and hell. But how is it done? Through the Gospel.
@ChristianDefence We must look at the context here. Jesus is speaking to the apostles in the upper room. He tells the apostles that they are to forgive sins. He does not tell this to every Christian. The problem you're running into is that you've removed this verse from its context. Context is one of the most important features that helps us discern the meaning of a text. Your interpretation not only removes these verses from the Biblical context, but also from the context of the early Church.
@cburton103 I am looking at the context. Exegetically. The direct context is the disciples receive Holy Spirit. I don't even need to interpret, I'm just requoting the passage here. You're just accusing me of not being in context without reason. I have no issues with the early Church. But your supposed context I have issues with, for instance, the problem is he isn't merely speaking to the apostles in the upper room, he gives the Holy Spirit to all disciples.
@ChristianDefence My apologies, it does say the disciples. I thought I remembered it saying "apostles". While this is not quite as explicit as just saying "apostles, the Gospel writers frequently refer to the apostles as "the disciples" or "his disciples". It is also applied sometimes to the group of believers who had been with the apostles for much of Jesus's three year ministry, such as Barnabas and Matthias. Much less frequently it is applied to all believers. (cont)
@cburton103 Hey, I actually have an exam I should be studying for, so I should start onto that. However, feel free to message me any thoughts on the matter, and I shall read and think about later on.
@cburton103 This fact is proved from a comparison of the accounts given by Mark, Luke, and John. The words of Jesus in John 20:23 are a commission to the whole Church, not just to the Apostles. In other words, it is no stretch to say that this is to those who repent and believe the Gospel.
@ChristianDefence (cont) The constant tradition of the Church from the earliest times in understanding Jesus's words to bestow authority to certain individuals in the Church (priests) to forgive sins leads me to accept this interpretation as the most valid one. In doing so, I am following Paul's advice to hold fast to the traditions that have been handed down to me from the apostles. If there is a different understanding of the ministry of reconciliation from the early Church, please share it.
@cburton103 forgiveness of sins in the power of the Holy Spirit (as in v. 22), it proclaims that those who believe in Jesus have their sins forgiven, and that those who do not believe in him do not have their sins forgiven - which simply reflects what God in heaven has already done.
@cburton103 Scripture does explain Scripture. However, Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit upon His disciples before He ascended back to heaven and before the Holy Spirit was poured out on Pentecost to those gathered in the upper room (in Acts.) Therefore, this was before the church was birthed. In the New Testament church, there is only one priesthood, and that is the priesthood of the believer. All believers may minister in the name of Christ because Christ lives in them. Hope this helps.
@pegcage I agree that Scripture can help explain Scripture. However, I disagree that Scripture should be used to ignore other parts of Scripture. In the New Testament Church, there are two kinds of priesthood: ministerial (ie John 20:21-23 and James 5:14-16) and the priesthood of all believers (1 Peter 2:9). There are clear distinctions between these. For instance, why was it only certain members (typically apostles) who could exercise the laying on of hands (all throughout acts)?
@cburton103 to answer that last question...1 all who have faith can do what the apostles and more...Philippians 4:13 and Matthew 17:19-20 ...2 sometimes God wants to use you in different ways so He gives reveals to us specific gifts ...look for the Body of Christ..we are all important but different...some are great teachers others are great with their hands and some can speak in tongues and others can interpret...ALL are important special and different, however the apostles were chosen for their
@cburton103 love for God...so was Mary and Noah and David ...so its not that they deserved it or that they were special ..they just loved God and He saw that they would do His will...but I have laid hands on myself and my dad and we have been healed..its not the apostles or me or whatever..its God's power and will
@UnadvisableCloud I agree that the power is God's, and that God decides through whom he will exercise his power. As you say, different members of the body of Christ have different gifts from God that God desires that they use for his glory. God calls some of us to a role as a priest, some of us as fathers and mothers, some of us as single people who use all of their attention to glorify God.
John 20:21-23 and James 5:14-16 are examples of the role of the ministerial priesthood. This is clear.
Ok, this guy is bigot. Look it up. He generalizes an entire group of beliefs at the beginning into the group "Paganism", which is funny as Pagans are known to be the most diverse belief system on Earth, even removing the large ones such as Hinduism,etc. Most of us don't believe in sin, that is an Abrahamic construct. A person feels bad so they are bad? Wrong. Again, sin. This guy is a wealth of disinformation who only increases fear and ignorance. Pagans don't spread fear, just peace. =)
ful acts. and guess who else, throughout religious mythology, used to punish his children? god. he drowned the entire earth, sent plagues upon it, etc. etc. that's a lot more severe than any pagan spirituality figure. and, according to the bible, humanity had to go through a lot more shit to get god out of his moody brooding phases. read a fucking encyclopedia, sheesk.
@sassyqueer The floods etc "sent by God" are the karmic return of all the hatred and ugliness of thought creations of mankind. It is not God's fault. Karma is not punishment, but simple return of one's energies so the soul learns, or not.
what is with christians picking certain buzzwords and completely misusing them to add some zest to their agendas? paganism is not one religion wherein its adherents have to coddle a childish god into behaving. paganism is a huge umbrella term created by ignoramuses like this fool to refer to all the non-christian heathens. but of the religions that do fall under paganism that have gods that have to be "manipulated", as you so inaccurately put it, it's to please a god after having committed wrong
To hold one of the faiths, you have to believe that a nameless spirit-entity, without a physical brain, suddenly had the need to “think” into existence a material universe of unfathomable danger and complexity, solely to place for testing, on a precarious planet, procreating beings of many imperfections. To each of these beings he assigns an individual soul, which, without physical connection, dwells within its host during life, then “lives” on for eternity.
if you come from Ireland/Britain, You would never admit to being a Catholic "Altar Boy"! ... but then You could watch clips of the Irish comedian Dave Allen...and then You would know what I mean!!!
Religion's god is good: that's why the religious god gives us free will and then changes his mind and judges us when we pass. The real deal would never do such a thing.
@ODM108 Nice try: Does god give us free will or not? If he does, free will does not mean, after several years I will judge you. Words mean things. I didn't assign those meanings to them. I'm just using the words that christians use to describe their beliefs. Maybe you can describe to me what god was doing when he changed his mind........
@rovingdesertfox That was not the area of interest I was pointing out to you. I was saying that at If any point you are stating what God "should" be from "your" perspective and not what God describes himself as in the Bible. Plus I didn't really understand the relevance of your reply, sorry buddy.
@ODM108 The god of the bible and christians are both full of it, because the true god could not give free will, (check the definition), and then judge. Truly giving free will does not involve any kind of judgment. The ch. religion is a belief system designed to control people. If you're in it, reason will not be a strong point used, so you'll never understand what I'm saying. When a religion takes away reason, you give them your mind. Be my guest.
@rovingdesertfox I'd like to direct you back to my first comment. You are trying to define a one true God from your morality and your perspective, and without trying to cause any offence, It's kind of arrogant to say that you a human being can decide what a moral God is. I also still find It quite difficult to read and process your replies, they don't appear to have much relevance to what I say to you? Have a nice day my friend and God bless you.
@ODM108 If you recall I started this thread with a comment: My first comment stated that an unconditionally loving god would never give free will, only to then change his mind to judge. Now let's try again, what about that can't you understand? I don't presume anything, this is what the religion teaches. Seems to me you are twisting the discussion. Try to stay on topic. Either god gives us free will or not. Which is it? Either god judges us, according to religion or not, which is it?
@rovingdesertfox As I keep telling you my friend, you keep saying what God "should be" in your eyes, you, like me, are nothing but a sinner. You are not perfect, your morality compass is not perfect. God gives us free will because he does not want robots... The whole reason for us being here would be pointless. Instead God creates us with the ability to make choices, he imposes his will on us as a Father would impose his will on a child. He does this because He loves us and wants the best for us
@ODM108 You live in a belief system and I have rejected that belief system. All of your statements need to be prefaced with "I think it is this way", because you do not know. You have faith, not knowledge. I am coming from this, questioning the reasonable aspects of what is actually taught in the church. If the premise of free will one minute and judgement the next, does not make logical sense, how could god condemn us to eternal damnation based on something that does not make sense?
@ODM108 Your answers will always revolve around the belief system; you cannot get out of it, for fear of being damned eternally yourself. I'd say that is a very strong incentive not to venture out and think for yourself. If I don't believe what you do, I'm damned eternally, if you start to think for yourself, you're damned eternally. If that is what god has come up with, he's a monster. Better: it is what man has come up with to control you. Believe what you like; it's your life.
@rovingdesertfox Again I say, God is not what you want Him to be, you can't say He's a "monster" because He doesn't want to do things the way you do, and Hell is not punishment for all those with unbelief. It it just another alternative because your sin is not taken. You choose that option, God doesn't choose it for you. You were born against God (the way we all are) lets pray my friend that you don't stay that way. If you do not belong to Jesus you are against Jesus.
@ODM108 You are not hearing me at all. Your problem with this interaction is that you keep saying "again" and repeating yourself. Try addressing what I am thoughtfully sending your way. If not, I'm wasting my time, which I probably am anyway. I'm not sure if you could misinterpret what I've said any worse.
Here's my last try:
You say God is not what I want him to be. Let me tell you something AGAIN: You live in a belief system where the ony IDEA you have of god comes from the bible.
@ODM108 What I have been saying to you is what your bible tells you about your god. Your bible says he gives free will and then breaks that promise to judge us. That makes him a monster; in anybody's book.
The people choose the option to go to hell and suffer endlessly? God doesn't choose it? You are delusional. God sets up the game according to your bible. Most people aren't even aware of this secret requirement/game god has set up. It's a terrible thought that god would....cont.
@ODM108 do such a thing. People are born into this world and are at the risk that some evangelist doesn't get to him in time so that he can think a certain way. Please. The church is a big corporation interested in income. 10% of your income. Right. For what? You have been indoctrinated, just like millions of others have been. You defend it because you go to hell if you defect. What a system.
@rovingdesertfox because everything is a conspiracy, and all the money and wealth that goes into the church is spent by the leaders on beer and holidays right? I'm not even going to dignify your responses with a proper answer any more, they are completely absurd, I'm sorry that you are so blind.
@ODM108 Now you're going to tell me the church isn't interested in money. My oh my. And I'm the one that is blind. This is not a conspiracy, it's been in the open forever. 10% of your income? Just because the catholic church originally wrote that into their scriptures? Nice. You are aware the catholic church has wealth beyond your wildest dreams and the other sects do just fine also. I'm making this up? Check it out for god's sake.
Get your facts straight before you tell me I'm blind.
@rovingdesertfox and just a general point to make, a Christian Isn't a Christian if they are someone who just "fears" eternal hell. I am a Christian because of what Christ did for me. I do not fear hell, for that Is what I'm saved from, and If I suddenly "decided" (as if there is such a thing) to not believe, then I wouldn't believe in hell either, so nor would I be scared of it.
@ODM108 You haven't been reading your bible!!!! I made comments based on what the church teaches.
You don't seem to grasp my points here, and because you are totally frustrated by my questions, I guess it's time to move on. I'm sorry you couldn't understand my points. Believe whatever you want, but when you pass on don't be surprised if nothing you are fabricating in your mind turns out to be real. of course, that's the price you pay for not challenging your belief system.
@ODM108 Even if u decided not to believe,you would still be saved because he keeps you saved and not yourself.And as paul said Nothing can separate us from God,Its his joy too see more souls in heaven.
@rovingdesertfox I'm not frustrated at all by your responses my friend. Allow me to point back to your very first comment. "the real deal wouldn't do that", you have no idea what the real deal is, and nor do you have the ability to shape what He is. The reason why I ignore your other points Is because your theology Is quite clearly bent and easy to attack. You seem like some angry individual who can't even structure a slightly good argument. I read my Bible daily and you sir, don't read at all.
@ODM108 good luck young man. You have a whole life ahead of you, as you are just barely 21 or so....
too bad you have to waste it on a belief system that advocates blood sacrifice, condones slavery, (if you read your bible like you say, you know this is true) and the stoning to death of people if they work on the sabbaoth.
I wish you continued good luck on your dead end experiment.
@MrUrosSrb That's a brilliant point and if God is the same today as yesterday, unchanging, then you see you cannot fit all these pieces into any puzzle at all. If Ch. use part of the o.t. as a precursor to the n.t. then you cannot just leave out all the old law stuff. I don't care how you cut it, you have to stand on your head to interpret the book. How many different interpretations are there? Thousands. And if the Holy Sp. is suppose to guide you, why the discrepancy? Mmmm?
@rovingdesertfox See when Jesus came then we are under grace,under grace=not under jewish law.Yes the holy spirit is supposed to guide you but think about how many things e.g Overeating,Masturbating u wouldnt feel conviction if u dont know they are sin.There are alot of christians who do that.Ofcourse they are convicted if they lie or commit adultery,but this they wouldnt know.Holy spirit is there not to tell u what is a sin and whats not.But to warn u instantly if some activity - continued
God doesn't have any obligations to us. Also what Mark Driscoll is preaching is right on, maybe you don't like it or understand but it is not his word it is God's don't believer or Mark Driscoll read the bible for yourselves pray and who will see.... FYI Catholicism is very pagan based without going into too much deep history ( which can write books in the amount of pagan influence in the catholic church) just compare what the Gospel says about Jesus and what Catholics teach it is not all consi
@TheDezzydez catholic church is the oldest institution surviving from ROMAN EMPIRE TIMES. helped europe and brought law and order. u cant have a whole bunch of butt pirates ruling the world all the time... but some butt pirates took over the church and during the years it has had a sour image. but no matter peter is the rock that jesus would build his church from. w/e if u believe in jesus its good
If God has no obligations to us, what do all those promises in the Bible mean ? That God play tricks on people, lies, deceives & cheats them. How is God the Deceiver & Father of Lies, the maker of promises that He does not intend to keep, any different from the devil ? Except in being far more wicked than the devil.
God is sovereign; sovereign enough to put Himself under obligations to others if He wishes to do so. Which is what He has done.
He is spouting crap right from the start. Paganism is not at all about manipulating the gods. He is just another propaganda spouting crap-shoot. Paganism and heathenry has beauty that Christianity could never have.
There are some things said here that are just wrong. God IS obligated to himself. Therefore, if he promises something, he cannot brake it. In confession, Jesus Christ is offering himself to you and you are simply coming to him. The point of the deeds or prayers for the penitent is totally caricaturized here. And NO, the man who is priest doesn't forgive you or absolve you because he acts in Person Christi, therefore it is Christ who forgives. this was disappointing.
its not the works themselves that "make it up to god" to make him forgive us. it is just our acts that help us to feel worse and more repentant for our sins bringing forgiveness. so in the end it is still merely repentance. at least that is how it has been explained to me
Yes, the miraculous healing of leprosy would be less obvious than regrowing a limb. It has nothing to do with how obvious the symptoms are. Healing leprosy would occur on a microscopic level, regrowing a limb is observable with the naked eye.
There's barely any evidence that a man named Jesus existed in the first place, and absolutely no evidence that he ever rose from the dead.
There are 600 manuscripts of the Illiad. Would you accept that as proof that there really was a man who was impervious to harm (except for at his heel) because his mom dipped him in the river Styx?
PS: You should check out the dates of those manuscripts. Not one of them is a firsthand account.
@yaminoanil Um, none of those are firsthand accounts. They were all written by people who were born after Jesus supposedly died. John wasn't written until nearly a century after the death of Jesus. The earliest, Mark, was written forty years later.
@bhsbassdude07 I should have been clearer. There are, of course, cases of false guilt, as well as cases where someone in the wrong doesn't feel any guilt. However, if you feel guilt for doing something *actually wrong,* it's because we *should.* Until, of course, we've repented, in which case continuing to feel guilt (not remorse, but actual guilt) is, I believe, itself a sin.
@TylerDurdenMakesSoap Again, "bad" as in "guilty." Which could still be untrue for someone with anxiety issues, but the underlying point here is that we SHOULD feel guilty to some extent. We DO bad things.
@RJFerreiro That's inherently subjective. And what if I do feel guilty when my friend dies? Maybe I didn't spend enough time with them. That doesn't make me a "bad" person. And, I feel guilty if I step on a flower and it breaks. But, that's my own personal guilt, and it doesn't make me "bad." The concept itself makes absolutely no sense. It doesn't take accidental guilt into consideration, either. I hit a car, on accident, and feel guilty. I'm not "bad."
@Helaxar If you feel guilty for doing something wrong, it's because you DID something wrong. What makes you "bad" is your sin. People are, inherently (from God's perspective), bad. Period. We can do nothing to merit his favor (i.e., nothing we do is "good"). The concept makes perfect sense; we sin, and are bad. Christ redeems us, and God declares us good based on Christ's righteousness being imputed to us. That's the only way people become "good" in the eyes of God.
True christianity is not a religion. Jesus said, "By the fruits youl'll know them" It does not mean christians are perfect, because we are still in this human body who's nature is to sin.
"Pagan Neo-Catholics", LOL. I love it when Christians tell us non-Christians that they have all the answers, when they can't even agree with each other about the fundamentals of their own religion.
@nashmj That's not true. Even if it were, just because someone says they're a Christian doesn't make it true. If you think saying you're a Christian makes you a Christian, there's something wrong with you.
where the heck did you get your info on paganism????? Don't know who this dude is but he needs to at least do a little research before talking about paganism. Just a little...........please.......
@TylerDurdenMakesSoap, you've completely missed what Driscoll is talking about here. He's not referring to anything concerning physical mental problems or disorders. He's talking about the moral guilt that someone experiences when they do something sinful. He's simply saying that we ought to "feel bad" or "feel guilty" when we do what is wrong because we ARE guilty. If we live lives of sin and selfishness, we ought not be surprised when we sense the weight of shame on our conscience.
Protestants who hate Catholicism amuse me greatly. Mostly because your faith is Catholicism except the parts you don't like. Your faith is heretical to the people who were heretical to Catholicism.
Thank you, Pastor Mark Driscoll, for making it clear that I'm a terrible person. Keep on passing judgement on everyone - your going to change the world!
I was offended at the first 2 mins. Then I realized he IS NOT TALKING ABOUT PAGANS. He is talking about a new form of catholizism. Not Pagans (Wiccans Asatru ect....)
Human, by very nature, search out the tangible. When I say tangible I mean things we can see, touch, hear, and feel etc.. Religion in general is a load of crap in MY OPINION. Its all based off of someones ideals based off of a book that has risen in society to be GOD himself. Most "Christians" see the Bible as GOD because they need something tangible when in truth all you need is the conviction to OPEN YOUR EYES.
You need a few years in religion theory and read up on what Paganism and Wicca really are. If you knew so much about it then you would know that Christainity is based on the Pagan belief system - you moron.
for forgiveness. now this is where the rest ties in really.
you cant do some sort of "ritual" and get forgiveness out of it. cuz theres no heart in there. u cant wais time on numbers of a prayer or HOW MUCH money n all that jazz.
u must repent from your heart, of coarse not your mind as well. easy way to xplain is heart= your true intentions. like killing for defense well your heart wasnt hatefull ya know. so repent make it genuine to God and ask for forgiveness. thats basically whats up.
he is accurate in his definition for paganism. cuz its the worldly sunday christian peganism. ppl who follow a religion n dont have a relationship with Jesus. Just ppl who go by what they heard n not wuts in Gods word thinking yah its right n i believe in the word...
as far as forgiveness God is mercifull in that you cannot make him do it.
so u must confess and repent. now this is where the rest ties in. quick note worldly sorrow is just bein sorry & isnt the way to ask
The first twenty seconds of this he makes himself look stupid. Pagans don't believe in God. Paganism is an umbrella term covering a lot of smaller, earth-based paths. A lot of Pagans practice the belief of more than one god, not God himself.
People need to do their research before getting on YouTube and making themselves look like asshats. Seriously.
You know, honestly, I wonder if saying "God is good" is really the truth! God isn't always good, you know? Sometimes he chastens, sometimes he chastises and sometimes he lets us make a huge, huge mess of our own lives. I wonder if it's more accurate to say that "God has perfect character." It's confusing to me to say God is good sometimes!
When God chastises you, is that bad on his behalf? Or is he being just and good to chastise and rebuke where neccessary?
And when God 'lets you make a mess of your own life', is God punishing you, or is it a trial by fire where you come out the other side, more like Christ? That is what our life is; becoming more like Christ. That is true goodness. God is more concerned with your eternal fate than your temporal discomfort.
@annemarieoregonsport When we do something wrong (let's say, break a law) - the Officer will arrest us and any charges may and most likely will be laid. In as much as the same way, we are dealing with THE Most High, Adonai, He has every right to punish us for anything bad we do and have done, however, He also is rich in mercy. As far as making a huge, huge mess of our own lives, can we really blame God All Mighty for what WE do? I think that's dangerous to do.
mark is a nice guy,,,no doubt about that,but you see he has been under the same hypnotism as all the others.including me.i still remember the guilt they have put me through.ofcourse they did not intentionally I HOPE but it was like venom and not good.annie saw the devil and his demons but dont all drug addicts?its his and her reality but not the reality of everybody,.and saying we have the only truth and only way is very arrogant.bb everybody.
witchcerridwen 3 weeks ago
Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." John 20:21-23. Sorry Mark, try again.
goodejr15 1 month ago 2
Pastor Mark Driscoll just nailed it here! He has a gift of speaking, telling the truth, making us think about things we've never given much though about and being extremely articulate!!
Wivanunu 1 month ago
The Holy Spirit TOTALLY convicts us! Even those who deny it.....they know!
Wivanunu 1 month ago
@Wivanunu - True
jgallete 1 month ago
God IS obligated to His people, for He has given His Word, and He MUST keep His Word. For His own sake He will bring it to pass. He bought us with His Blood, but He has obligated Himself to care for us because He Is good and we trust Him.
Theology students have theories based upon men's doctrines rather than on firsthand knowledge of the Lord. Jesus needs us because He has chosen to need us. May you all meet Jesus so you can know Him truly rather than just facts about Him.
OKandNOWwhat 1 month ago
Everything Catholics do with a priest (as far as confession and all that), they could do with a Christian friend (James 5:16). Even if Catholics WERE correct that only priests are allowed to do this, the poor theology surrounding it is untenable (Hail Marys, purgatory, Co-Mediatrix, works FOR salvation, etc). Hence the Protestant Reformation: Catholicism long ago gave up on Scriptural theology (as per their views on sola scriptura).
natemup 2 months ago
@natemup could you talk more about Co-Mediatrix?
andrewdreiling11 2 months ago
@andrewdreiling11 It's the belief that Mary played a part in the redemption of the world, and that she is a valid mediatrix (feminine mediator) between God and man. Both are obviously heresies, but it is no secret that Catholicism often puts Mary on an equal level with God/Jesus, in theology, art, and elsewhere. I've read this stems from ancient paganism concerning mother-goddess traditions, which infiltrated Christianity (along with much of Roman paganism) after the Edict of Milan...
natemup 2 months ago
Well you obviously don't understand the word pagan
Schnigtheatheist 2 months ago
Hmmm... I read the conversation between @stpooh and @ChristianDefence. How do expiation and propitiation help one who has been victimized when the abuser is not willing to repent?
jdemocrat 3 months ago
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stpooh 4 months ago
@stpooh Your extrapolation does not logically follow towards your conclusions presented. Nor is he implying at any stage that Christians deny any feelings of badness.
ChristianDefence 3 months ago
@ChristianDefence I watched it again, and I have no idea what you are referring to. At 1:12 he says "non-Christians can feel bad". He then says you "feel bad because you're bad". My conclusions are logical. Those who believe they are above feeling "bad" deny their feelings. This also can influence inflation of the ego, by believing you are above "bad feelings". If he did not mean that Christians cannot "feel bad", then I am sorry if I misunderstood him.
stpooh 3 months ago
@stpooh Still don't follow. I'm not trying to represent or defend Mark Driscoll here, I'm just trying to see what you're saying.
"non-Christians can feel bad" - I think Mark here means the potential of feeling bad, not that they always "will" feel bad. Next, he uses an one example: "you feel bad because you're bad". I think you're reading in too much detail in what he isn't saying. I'll post the logical statement in my next comment as to what I mean.
ChristianDefence 3 months ago
@stpooh Here's what I think Mark is saying:
Point 1. "non-Christians can feel bad"
Point 2. non-Christian "feel bad because you're bad"
Conclusion: non-Christians can feel bad.
Your conclusion seems to go further to say:
Point 1. "non-Christians can feel bad"
Point 2. non-Christian "feel bad because you're bad"
Conclusion: Christians can't feel bad.
ChristianDefence 3 months ago
@ChristianDefence OK, I see your point. The way I wrote this is technically an over generalization. However, when he explicitly states "that's because NON-Christians can feel bad", he seems to imply that true Christians don't feel bad, and if you feel bad, it is because you are not a true Christian. If this is not what he meant, then please tell me what his point is.
stpooh 3 months ago
@stpooh When he refers to non-Christians, I don't immediately think about non-Christians being the opposite to Christians, on the contrary, I don't even make any comparison at all.
The same analogy is like saying if apples feel hard; then non-apples can't feel hard. This logic doesn't follow.
His point is: Jesus is your high priest, don't try to make up for things, just repentant.
ChristianDefence 3 months ago
@ChristianDefence If Jesus is your high priest does that mean you will no longer feel bad?
stpooh 3 months ago
@stpooh If Jesus is your high priest, it means you can get your sins forgiven directly from God, the Holy Spirit washes you clean from the effects of sin - e.g. guilt and shame that makes one feel bad.
This means, you are no longer condemned, you are set free from the bondage of sin, you are washed clean from sin, sin that makes us feel bad, and even though we all fail, Jesus intercedes for us as Christians under a continual process of sanctification (to become more and more like Jesus).
ChristianDefence 3 months ago
@ChristianDefence Thank you, but that was not my question. Is he saying that if Jesus is your high priest, you will no longer feel bad? Here is my concern: When Pastor Driscoll states that "NON-Christians can feel bad" he seems to imply that if Jesus is your high priest you will not feel bad. He also states that people who feel bad are bad. I work with people who feel bad despite the fact that they are strong Christians. Many have been victimized by others through no fault of their own...
stpooh 3 months ago
... How does this message apply to them?
stpooh 3 months ago
@stpooh I have exams so I don't have time to respond after I post this.
I also work with teenagers who have been victimised. The question you have proposed is not a 'yes' or 'no' question, but requires elaboration. Driscoll was not presenting a gospel here, he was just giving a cultural analysis of non-Christians, in particularly, celebrities.
If you are looking for a message, you need to share the gospel with people. Propiation and expiation.
ChristianDefence 3 months ago
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stpooh 3 months ago
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stpooh 3 months ago
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stpooh 3 months ago
Mark is very misled when it comes to Catholicism. I was raised Catholic like he was, then spent 11 years in the protestant, charismatic side of our faith. Yet, the Holy Spirit has led me back to Catholicism. During this time I have been seeking truth and some things are hard to understand, like confession or baptism, or even Mary. However, Mark, still having misconceptions about these things, shows a lot of animosity towards the Catholic Church.
akdoc11 4 months ago
@akdoc11 It is really sad to see him diss, for lack of a better term, how Catholic brothers and sisters practice our faith. After being on both sides of the spectrum, and continuing to seek the truth, the Catholic Church is full of rich tradition, all based on the Bible mind you, and has existed since Christ's Resurrection. Also, mind you, Driscoll's denomination is not even a couple of hundred years in the making, yet he believes it to be the ultimate truth. Hmmm?
akdoc11 4 months ago
@akdoc11 The principles of the Protestant beliefs are actually catholic in nature, nor are they new, after all; it sprung from the "reformation" of Catholic teaching. It's a shame that the two are almost viewed as enemies. I think Mark sometimes wants to pick on the extremes, generalise, to make a point. There may be some Catholics who adhere to his definition (of course, they'd be viewed as heretical from both sides) but they do exist.
ChristianDefence 3 months ago
@ChristianDefence The bad thing about his picking on extremes is that he can, and has, severely mislead thousands of people who heard this sermon or watched it online and believed him. He speaks truth on a lot of topics, but this is not one of them. It's dangerous to say things like this if you are wrong.
akdoc11 3 months ago
@akdoc11 Well, I guess that's what makes Mark Driscoll so controversial. Love him or hate him, he seems to make any topic sound interesting.
ChristianDefence 3 months ago
We must follow Jesus, and Jesus said, "...to [the apostles] again: Peace be to you. As the Father has sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained" (John 20:21-23).
This sure sounds a lot like Jesus instituted the sacrament of Confession, which this preacher bashes. I pray that the Lord leads all of his sheep to his Church
cburton103 4 months ago
@cburton103 the Sacrament is Confession to a Priest because He absolves you, whether your heart is in it or not. How does the Priest know your heart and have the authority to absolve you? Biblical repentance is confessing your sin to God. Also, confessing to the people you hurt to reconcile with them
alniea 4 months ago
@alniea In the Bible we are told to confess our sins to God and to others (people you hurt, priests, etc). The priest cannot really know your heart, but must hear your confession, because as we see in John 20, Jesus gives the apostles the choice to forgive or retain sins. Also, any serious Catholic is going to be sorry for offending the Lord in any way.
What do you think John 20:21-23 means? Jesus gave the authority to forgive sins to the apostles here - it seems quite clear. God bless.
cburton103 4 months ago
@cburton103 Learn about the body of Christ in the New Testament. All believers are part of the body. The Bible says to confess our sins to one another. Only God, however, can forgive sins. There is no apostolic auhority. Jesus died for you on the cross to forgive ALLthe sins of the world. We do not need earthly meiators. We need Christ, who died and rose again that we might have eternal life.
pegcage 4 months ago
@pegcage Will you address the question of what John 20:21-23 means? I can't seem to find a Protestant of the Fundamentalist type that will give me an honest answer. Most do as you have done and tell me to go look at another verse. I agree with every word the Bible says, therefore I must look at the entire Bible in context. I will not ignore one single verse. Therefore, let us start here at the verses I have already brought up. If you'd like to bring up others after addressing this one, feel free
cburton103 4 months ago
@cburton103 John 20:19-23 The authority Jesus bestowed parallels that given first to Peter (in Matthew 16:16-19) and then to the Twelve (Matthew 18:18). It was fulfilled in the disciples' preaching ministry in Acts. Nothing is taught here about papal infallibility or apostolic sucession.
ChristianDefence 3 months ago
@cburton103 John 20:23 - The expressions 'they are forgiven' and 'it is withheld' represent perfect-tense verbs in Greek and could also be translated, "they have been forgiven" and "it has been withheld", since the perfect gives the sense of completed past action with continuing results in the present. The idea is not that individual Christians or churches have authority on their own to forgive or not forgive people, but rather that as the church proclaims the gospel message of (cont...)
ChristianDefence 3 months ago
@ChristianDefence I understand the significance of the verb tense used here. It's saying (similarly to the verses you point out in Matthew's Gospel) that when the apostles make a decision, God will have already honored it in heaven. Your interpretation is a big jump from the actual text, and you fail to mention that Jesus says, "if YOU forgive anyone's sins". Please address what this means honestly. If it doesn't mean what the Church says it does, why did all Christians understand it this way?
cburton103 3 months ago
@cburton103 I was looking at the whole passage, where have I made a big jump from the actual text? This passage more focusses on the Holy Spirit and the work of the Spirit, why won't you look into that? Why do you insist on emphasising certain words from one word? How do you come with the conclusion that "all Christians understand it this way"? Perhaps you're the one jumping from the actual text? But I'll address your question anyway. (cont...)
ChristianDefence 3 months ago
@ChristianDefence If you disagree with my claim that the early Church is distinctively Catholic, feel free to read the Early Church Fathers at newadvent . com. Please tell me which letter they wrote that does not sound distinctively Catholic and why. May God bless you and draw you home to his One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
cburton103 3 months ago
@cburton103 My understanding of John 20:23 "if you forgive the sins..." Jesus bestowed on His followers authority to announce access of disbarment from God's kingdom, why? Based on the people's reception or denial of the gospel message. For those who reject Jesus, His messengers are commissioned to say that they do not have forgiveness of sins. I think it's a far cry to extrapolate further meaning to that.
ChristianDefence 3 months ago
@ChristianDefence The text says "Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained". Notice how Jesus says "you forgive", not "you announce them disbarred from God's kingdom", or something to that effect. Jesus actually uses the apostles as the instruments through which he forgives sins.
As far as the unanimous voice of the early Church, check out this article: catholic.com/tracts/confession
The early Church is distinctively Catholic. GB
cburton103 3 months ago
@cburton103 This article is about the confession of sins, which I agree with, but irrespective: what does the passage say? To the disciples he says, "Receive the Holy Spirit". The power is here given to all Christians - not on the pope, bishops, priests, and monks. Christ speaks neither of priests nor of monks but says, "receive the Holy Spirit". Whoever has the Holy Spirit, power is given to him, that is, to everyone who is a Christian. This does not mean anyone can institute confession however
ChristianDefence 3 months ago
@cburton103 to forgive sins or to retain sins, concerns those who confess and receive more than those who are to impart the absolution, where we are to serve our neighbour. For in all services the greatest is to release from sin, to deliver from the devil and hell. But how is it done? Through the Gospel.
ChristianDefence 3 months ago
@ChristianDefence We must look at the context here. Jesus is speaking to the apostles in the upper room. He tells the apostles that they are to forgive sins. He does not tell this to every Christian. The problem you're running into is that you've removed this verse from its context. Context is one of the most important features that helps us discern the meaning of a text. Your interpretation not only removes these verses from the Biblical context, but also from the context of the early Church.
cburton103 3 months ago
@cburton103 I am looking at the context. Exegetically. The direct context is the disciples receive Holy Spirit. I don't even need to interpret, I'm just requoting the passage here. You're just accusing me of not being in context without reason. I have no issues with the early Church. But your supposed context I have issues with, for instance, the problem is he isn't merely speaking to the apostles in the upper room, he gives the Holy Spirit to all disciples.
ChristianDefence 3 months ago
@ChristianDefence My apologies, it does say the disciples. I thought I remembered it saying "apostles". While this is not quite as explicit as just saying "apostles, the Gospel writers frequently refer to the apostles as "the disciples" or "his disciples". It is also applied sometimes to the group of believers who had been with the apostles for much of Jesus's three year ministry, such as Barnabas and Matthias. Much less frequently it is applied to all believers. (cont)
cburton103 3 months ago
@cburton103 Hey, I actually have an exam I should be studying for, so I should start onto that. However, feel free to message me any thoughts on the matter, and I shall read and think about later on.
ChristianDefence 3 months ago
@cburton103 This fact is proved from a comparison of the accounts given by Mark, Luke, and John. The words of Jesus in John 20:23 are a commission to the whole Church, not just to the Apostles. In other words, it is no stretch to say that this is to those who repent and believe the Gospel.
ChristianDefence 3 months ago
@ChristianDefence (cont) The constant tradition of the Church from the earliest times in understanding Jesus's words to bestow authority to certain individuals in the Church (priests) to forgive sins leads me to accept this interpretation as the most valid one. In doing so, I am following Paul's advice to hold fast to the traditions that have been handed down to me from the apostles. If there is a different understanding of the ministry of reconciliation from the early Church, please share it.
cburton103 3 months ago
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@cburton103 forgiveness of sins in the power of the Holy Spirit (as in v. 22), it proclaims that those who believe in Jesus have their sins forgiven, and that those who do not believe in him do not have their sins forgiven - which simply reflects what God in heaven has already done.
ChristianDefence 3 months ago
@cburton103 Scripture does explain Scripture. However, Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit upon His disciples before He ascended back to heaven and before the Holy Spirit was poured out on Pentecost to those gathered in the upper room (in Acts.) Therefore, this was before the church was birthed. In the New Testament church, there is only one priesthood, and that is the priesthood of the believer. All believers may minister in the name of Christ because Christ lives in them. Hope this helps.
pegcage 3 months ago
@pegcage I agree that Scripture can help explain Scripture. However, I disagree that Scripture should be used to ignore other parts of Scripture. In the New Testament Church, there are two kinds of priesthood: ministerial (ie John 20:21-23 and James 5:14-16) and the priesthood of all believers (1 Peter 2:9). There are clear distinctions between these. For instance, why was it only certain members (typically apostles) who could exercise the laying on of hands (all throughout acts)?
cburton103 3 months ago
@cburton103 to answer that last question...1 all who have faith can do what the apostles and more...Philippians 4:13 and Matthew 17:19-20 ...2 sometimes God wants to use you in different ways so He gives reveals to us specific gifts ...look for the Body of Christ..we are all important but different...some are great teachers others are great with their hands and some can speak in tongues and others can interpret...ALL are important special and different, however the apostles were chosen for their
UnadvisableCloud 3 months ago
@cburton103 love for God...so was Mary and Noah and David ...so its not that they deserved it or that they were special ..they just loved God and He saw that they would do His will...but I have laid hands on myself and my dad and we have been healed..its not the apostles or me or whatever..its God's power and will
UnadvisableCloud 3 months ago
@UnadvisableCloud I agree that the power is God's, and that God decides through whom he will exercise his power. As you say, different members of the body of Christ have different gifts from God that God desires that they use for his glory. God calls some of us to a role as a priest, some of us as fathers and mothers, some of us as single people who use all of their attention to glorify God.
John 20:21-23 and James 5:14-16 are examples of the role of the ministerial priesthood. This is clear.
cburton103 3 months ago
Ok, this guy is bigot. Look it up. He generalizes an entire group of beliefs at the beginning into the group "Paganism", which is funny as Pagans are known to be the most diverse belief system on Earth, even removing the large ones such as Hinduism,etc. Most of us don't believe in sin, that is an Abrahamic construct. A person feels bad so they are bad? Wrong. Again, sin. This guy is a wealth of disinformation who only increases fear and ignorance. Pagans don't spread fear, just peace. =)
joshthepagan 4 months ago
ful acts. and guess who else, throughout religious mythology, used to punish his children? god. he drowned the entire earth, sent plagues upon it, etc. etc. that's a lot more severe than any pagan spirituality figure. and, according to the bible, humanity had to go through a lot more shit to get god out of his moody brooding phases. read a fucking encyclopedia, sheesk.
sassyqueer 5 months ago
@sassyqueer The floods etc "sent by God" are the karmic return of all the hatred and ugliness of thought creations of mankind. It is not God's fault. Karma is not punishment, but simple return of one's energies so the soul learns, or not.
AOZXRAY 4 months ago
what is with christians picking certain buzzwords and completely misusing them to add some zest to their agendas? paganism is not one religion wherein its adherents have to coddle a childish god into behaving. paganism is a huge umbrella term created by ignoramuses like this fool to refer to all the non-christian heathens. but of the religions that do fall under paganism that have gods that have to be "manipulated", as you so inaccurately put it, it's to please a god after having committed wrong
sassyqueer 5 months ago
You have no idea what Paganism is.
AndromedaFollowsMe 6 months ago 2
To hold one of the faiths, you have to believe that a nameless spirit-entity, without a physical brain, suddenly had the need to “think” into existence a material universe of unfathomable danger and complexity, solely to place for testing, on a precarious planet, procreating beings of many imperfections. To each of these beings he assigns an individual soul, which, without physical connection, dwells within its host during life, then “lives” on for eternity.
You are not serious, right?
StrumstickJoe 6 months ago
JESUS is the only one that saves. Supernatural over and above the natural. GOD greater than the world and its ruler Satan.
voyagersystem 7 months ago 2
if you come from Ireland/Britain, You would never admit to being a Catholic "Altar Boy"! ... but then You could watch clips of the Irish comedian Dave Allen...and then You would know what I mean!!!
opendtuning 9 months ago
Religion's god is good: that's why the religious god gives us free will and then changes his mind and judges us when we pass. The real deal would never do such a thing.
rovingdesertfox 9 months ago
@rovingdesertfox you say this as If you, a mere human being should decide what God is, and what moral compass he should bare. You sir are blind.
ODM108 8 months ago
@ODM108 Nice try: Does god give us free will or not? If he does, free will does not mean, after several years I will judge you. Words mean things. I didn't assign those meanings to them. I'm just using the words that christians use to describe their beliefs. Maybe you can describe to me what god was doing when he changed his mind........
rovingdesertfox 8 months ago
@rovingdesertfox That was not the area of interest I was pointing out to you. I was saying that at If any point you are stating what God "should" be from "your" perspective and not what God describes himself as in the Bible. Plus I didn't really understand the relevance of your reply, sorry buddy.
ODM108 8 months ago
@ODM108 The god of the bible and christians are both full of it, because the true god could not give free will, (check the definition), and then judge. Truly giving free will does not involve any kind of judgment. The ch. religion is a belief system designed to control people. If you're in it, reason will not be a strong point used, so you'll never understand what I'm saying. When a religion takes away reason, you give them your mind. Be my guest.
rovingdesertfox 8 months ago
@rovingdesertfox I'd like to direct you back to my first comment. You are trying to define a one true God from your morality and your perspective, and without trying to cause any offence, It's kind of arrogant to say that you a human being can decide what a moral God is. I also still find It quite difficult to read and process your replies, they don't appear to have much relevance to what I say to you? Have a nice day my friend and God bless you.
ODM108 8 months ago
@ODM108 If you recall I started this thread with a comment: My first comment stated that an unconditionally loving god would never give free will, only to then change his mind to judge. Now let's try again, what about that can't you understand? I don't presume anything, this is what the religion teaches. Seems to me you are twisting the discussion. Try to stay on topic. Either god gives us free will or not. Which is it? Either god judges us, according to religion or not, which is it?
rovingdesertfox 8 months ago
@rovingdesertfox As I keep telling you my friend, you keep saying what God "should be" in your eyes, you, like me, are nothing but a sinner. You are not perfect, your morality compass is not perfect. God gives us free will because he does not want robots... The whole reason for us being here would be pointless. Instead God creates us with the ability to make choices, he imposes his will on us as a Father would impose his will on a child. He does this because He loves us and wants the best for us
ODM108 8 months ago
@ODM108 You live in a belief system and I have rejected that belief system. All of your statements need to be prefaced with "I think it is this way", because you do not know. You have faith, not knowledge. I am coming from this, questioning the reasonable aspects of what is actually taught in the church. If the premise of free will one minute and judgement the next, does not make logical sense, how could god condemn us to eternal damnation based on something that does not make sense?
rovingdesertfox 8 months ago
@ODM108 Your answers will always revolve around the belief system; you cannot get out of it, for fear of being damned eternally yourself. I'd say that is a very strong incentive not to venture out and think for yourself. If I don't believe what you do, I'm damned eternally, if you start to think for yourself, you're damned eternally. If that is what god has come up with, he's a monster. Better: it is what man has come up with to control you. Believe what you like; it's your life.
rovingdesertfox 8 months ago
@rovingdesertfox Again I say, God is not what you want Him to be, you can't say He's a "monster" because He doesn't want to do things the way you do, and Hell is not punishment for all those with unbelief. It it just another alternative because your sin is not taken. You choose that option, God doesn't choose it for you. You were born against God (the way we all are) lets pray my friend that you don't stay that way. If you do not belong to Jesus you are against Jesus.
ODM108 8 months ago
@ODM108 You are not hearing me at all. Your problem with this interaction is that you keep saying "again" and repeating yourself. Try addressing what I am thoughtfully sending your way. If not, I'm wasting my time, which I probably am anyway. I'm not sure if you could misinterpret what I've said any worse.
Here's my last try:
You say God is not what I want him to be. Let me tell you something AGAIN: You live in a belief system where the ony IDEA you have of god comes from the bible.
rovingdesertfox 8 months ago
@ODM108 What I have been saying to you is what your bible tells you about your god. Your bible says he gives free will and then breaks that promise to judge us. That makes him a monster; in anybody's book.
The people choose the option to go to hell and suffer endlessly? God doesn't choose it? You are delusional. God sets up the game according to your bible. Most people aren't even aware of this secret requirement/game god has set up. It's a terrible thought that god would....cont.
rovingdesertfox 8 months ago
@ODM108 do such a thing. People are born into this world and are at the risk that some evangelist doesn't get to him in time so that he can think a certain way. Please. The church is a big corporation interested in income. 10% of your income. Right. For what? You have been indoctrinated, just like millions of others have been. You defend it because you go to hell if you defect. What a system.
Wake up man.
rovingdesertfox 8 months ago
@rovingdesertfox because everything is a conspiracy, and all the money and wealth that goes into the church is spent by the leaders on beer and holidays right? I'm not even going to dignify your responses with a proper answer any more, they are completely absurd, I'm sorry that you are so blind.
ODM108 8 months ago
@ODM108 Now you're going to tell me the church isn't interested in money. My oh my. And I'm the one that is blind. This is not a conspiracy, it's been in the open forever. 10% of your income? Just because the catholic church originally wrote that into their scriptures? Nice. You are aware the catholic church has wealth beyond your wildest dreams and the other sects do just fine also. I'm making this up? Check it out for god's sake.
Get your facts straight before you tell me I'm blind.
rovingdesertfox 8 months ago
@rovingdesertfox and just a general point to make, a Christian Isn't a Christian if they are someone who just "fears" eternal hell. I am a Christian because of what Christ did for me. I do not fear hell, for that Is what I'm saved from, and If I suddenly "decided" (as if there is such a thing) to not believe, then I wouldn't believe in hell either, so nor would I be scared of it.
ODM108 8 months ago
@ODM108 You haven't been reading your bible!!!! I made comments based on what the church teaches.
You don't seem to grasp my points here, and because you are totally frustrated by my questions, I guess it's time to move on. I'm sorry you couldn't understand my points. Believe whatever you want, but when you pass on don't be surprised if nothing you are fabricating in your mind turns out to be real. of course, that's the price you pay for not challenging your belief system.
rovingdesertfox 8 months ago
@ODM108 Even if u decided not to believe,you would still be saved because he keeps you saved and not yourself.And as paul said Nothing can separate us from God,Its his joy too see more souls in heaven.
MrUrosSrb 6 months ago
@rovingdesertfox I'm not frustrated at all by your responses my friend. Allow me to point back to your very first comment. "the real deal wouldn't do that", you have no idea what the real deal is, and nor do you have the ability to shape what He is. The reason why I ignore your other points Is because your theology Is quite clearly bent and easy to attack. You seem like some angry individual who can't even structure a slightly good argument. I read my Bible daily and you sir, don't read at all.
ODM108 8 months ago
@ODM108 good luck young man. You have a whole life ahead of you, as you are just barely 21 or so....
too bad you have to waste it on a belief system that advocates blood sacrifice, condones slavery, (if you read your bible like you say, you know this is true) and the stoning to death of people if they work on the sabbaoth.
I wish you continued good luck on your dead end experiment.
rovingdesertfox 8 months ago
@rovingdesertfox Thats the Jewish law i reckon.And Christians are not under that law.Simple.
MrUrosSrb 6 months ago
@MrUrosSrb That's a brilliant point and if God is the same today as yesterday, unchanging, then you see you cannot fit all these pieces into any puzzle at all. If Ch. use part of the o.t. as a precursor to the n.t. then you cannot just leave out all the old law stuff. I don't care how you cut it, you have to stand on your head to interpret the book. How many different interpretations are there? Thousands. And if the Holy Sp. is suppose to guide you, why the discrepancy? Mmmm?
rovingdesertfox 6 months ago
@rovingdesertfox See when Jesus came then we are under grace,under grace=not under jewish law.Yes the holy spirit is supposed to guide you but think about how many things e.g Overeating,Masturbating u wouldnt feel conviction if u dont know they are sin.There are alot of christians who do that.Ofcourse they are convicted if they lie or commit adultery,but this they wouldnt know.Holy spirit is there not to tell u what is a sin and whats not.But to warn u instantly if some activity - continued
MrUrosSrb 6 months ago
@rovingdesertfox But if some activity ur about to indulge in would be sinful.
MrUrosSrb 6 months ago
Comment removed
MrUrosSrb 6 months ago
@rovingdesertfox Im gonna write you a message where i can prove to you that Christ is real and only way that leads to heaven.
MrUrosSrb 6 months ago
@rovingdesertfox And Law is not God.God doesnt changed but the law is not a requirement for us now.Law is not God.
MrUrosSrb 6 months ago
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niinja2 9 months ago
snakes rule the world!!!!!
shawdawg89 9 months ago
'Celebrity Pagan Neo-Catholics' really should be a reality show by now.
TheSeanWilson 10 months ago
God doesn't have any obligations to us. Also what Mark Driscoll is preaching is right on, maybe you don't like it or understand but it is not his word it is God's don't believer or Mark Driscoll read the bible for yourselves pray and who will see.... FYI Catholicism is very pagan based without going into too much deep history ( which can write books in the amount of pagan influence in the catholic church) just compare what the Gospel says about Jesus and what Catholics teach it is not all consi
TheDezzydez 10 months ago
@TheDezzydez catholic church is the oldest institution surviving from ROMAN EMPIRE TIMES. helped europe and brought law and order. u cant have a whole bunch of butt pirates ruling the world all the time... but some butt pirates took over the church and during the years it has had a sour image. but no matter peter is the rock that jesus would build his church from. w/e if u believe in jesus its good
shawdawg89 9 months ago
If God has no obligations to us, what do all those promises in the Bible mean ? That God play tricks on people, lies, deceives & cheats them. How is God the Deceiver & Father of Lies, the maker of promises that He does not intend to keep, any different from the devil ? Except in being far more wicked than the devil.
God is sovereign; sovereign enough to put Himself under obligations to others if He wishes to do so. Which is what He has done.
5355vbxjbj76rvn 10 months ago
He is spouting crap right from the start. Paganism is not at all about manipulating the gods. He is just another propaganda spouting crap-shoot. Paganism and heathenry has beauty that Christianity could never have.
FollowerOfTheGods 11 months ago
There are some things said here that are just wrong. God IS obligated to himself. Therefore, if he promises something, he cannot brake it. In confession, Jesus Christ is offering himself to you and you are simply coming to him. The point of the deeds or prayers for the penitent is totally caricaturized here. And NO, the man who is priest doesn't forgive you or absolve you because he acts in Person Christi, therefore it is Christ who forgives. this was disappointing.
equitemcroce 1 year ago
@ryno200. Look at the dates of those manuscripts. They aren't proof of anything. LOL.
butchkitties 1 year ago
DOh! Pastor Driscoll... you live in the land of hollywood.
shawdawg89 1 year ago
Christians - Assume God is Good
Pagans - Assume God Isn’t Good
Can we eliminate the assumptions and justify the stance?
NightHawkBomber001 1 year ago
its not the works themselves that "make it up to god" to make him forgive us. it is just our acts that help us to feel worse and more repentant for our sins bringing forgiveness. so in the end it is still merely repentance. at least that is how it has been explained to me
cp10144696 1 year ago
@cp10144696 although i agree with most of what he is saying
cp10144696 1 year ago
my dad didn't hug me rehab lol
MrCharrrles 1 year ago 13
@bhsbassdude07
Yes, the miraculous healing of leprosy would be less obvious than regrowing a limb. It has nothing to do with how obvious the symptoms are. Healing leprosy would occur on a microscopic level, regrowing a limb is observable with the naked eye.
There's barely any evidence that a man named Jesus existed in the first place, and absolutely no evidence that he ever rose from the dead.
butchkitties 1 year ago
@butchkitties Just 6000 manuscripts and portions on manuscripts but hey, who's counting.
ryno200 1 year ago
@ryno200
There are 600 manuscripts of the Illiad. Would you accept that as proof that there really was a man who was impervious to harm (except for at his heel) because his mom dipped him in the river Styx?
PS: You should check out the dates of those manuscripts. Not one of them is a firsthand account.
butchkitties 1 year ago
@butchkitties Ever heard of the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? Those are the firsthand accounts you call for.
yaminoanil 1 year ago 9
@yaminoanil Um, none of those are firsthand accounts. They were all written by people who were born after Jesus supposedly died. John wasn't written until nearly a century after the death of Jesus. The earliest, Mark, was written forty years later.
butchkitties 9 months ago
@bhsbassdude07 I should have been clearer. There are, of course, cases of false guilt, as well as cases where someone in the wrong doesn't feel any guilt. However, if you feel guilt for doing something *actually wrong,* it's because we *should.* Until, of course, we've repented, in which case continuing to feel guilt (not remorse, but actual guilt) is, I believe, itself a sin.
RJFerreiro 1 year ago
@TylerDurdenMakesSoap Again, "bad" as in "guilty." Which could still be untrue for someone with anxiety issues, but the underlying point here is that we SHOULD feel guilty to some extent. We DO bad things.
RJFerreiro 1 year ago
If I feel bad...I'm bad? So, if I'm sad that someone I know dies, that makes me a bad person? Yeah. No.
Helaxar 1 year ago
@Helaxar Well, there is the whole idea of being intellectually honest by taking things in context.
What he SAID was that if you feel "bad" --that is, GUILTY--it's because you ARE bad.
Pay attention next time.
RJFerreiro 1 year ago
@RJFerreiro That's inherently subjective. And what if I do feel guilty when my friend dies? Maybe I didn't spend enough time with them. That doesn't make me a "bad" person. And, I feel guilty if I step on a flower and it breaks. But, that's my own personal guilt, and it doesn't make me "bad." The concept itself makes absolutely no sense. It doesn't take accidental guilt into consideration, either. I hit a car, on accident, and feel guilty. I'm not "bad."
Helaxar 1 year ago
@Helaxar If you feel guilty for doing something wrong, it's because you DID something wrong. What makes you "bad" is your sin. People are, inherently (from God's perspective), bad. Period. We can do nothing to merit his favor (i.e., nothing we do is "good"). The concept makes perfect sense; we sin, and are bad. Christ redeems us, and God declares us good based on Christ's righteousness being imputed to us. That's the only way people become "good" in the eyes of God.
RJFerreiro 1 year ago
True christianity is not a religion. Jesus said, "By the fruits youl'll know them" It does not mean christians are perfect, because we are still in this human body who's nature is to sin.
kawayan65 1 year ago 2
"Pagan Neo-Catholics", LOL. I love it when Christians tell us non-Christians that they have all the answers, when they can't even agree with each other about the fundamentals of their own religion.
nashmj 1 year ago
@nashmj Who said Catholics were Christian??
Kevbox2008 1 year ago 2
@Kevbox2008 they are RERE
thejman1509 1 year ago
@thejman1509 Okay...If you say so.
Kevbox2008 1 year ago
@Kevbox2008 They've been saying that, for about the last 1,500 years or so. Where have you been?
nashmj 1 year ago
@nashmj So that makes it true??
Kevbox2008 1 year ago
@Kevbox2008 Well, given the fact that they were the first people calling themselves Christians, yeah, that does pretty much make it true.
nashmj 1 year ago
@nashmj That's not true. Even if it were, just because someone says they're a Christian doesn't make it true. If you think saying you're a Christian makes you a Christian, there's something wrong with you.
Kevbox2008 1 year ago
THat was a good sermon
MrPatches557 1 year ago
where the heck did you get your info on paganism????? Don't know who this dude is but he needs to at least do a little research before talking about paganism. Just a little...........please.......
Shunketsu1 1 year ago
@Shunketsu1 I think he uses "paganism" to be synonymous with "non-Christian."
RJFerreiro 1 year ago
preach it Brother! I find it interesting that this clip has 10,000 views but the religious repentance clip is falling behind.
rugbymama1 1 year ago
@TylerDurdenMakesSoap, you've completely missed what Driscoll is talking about here. He's not referring to anything concerning physical mental problems or disorders. He's talking about the moral guilt that someone experiences when they do something sinful. He's simply saying that we ought to "feel bad" or "feel guilty" when we do what is wrong because we ARE guilty. If we live lives of sin and selfishness, we ought not be surprised when we sense the weight of shame on our conscience.
flyguy00780 1 year ago
Protestants who hate Catholicism amuse me greatly. Mostly because your faith is Catholicism except the parts you don't like. Your faith is heretical to the people who were heretical to Catholicism.
And no, double heresy doesn't cancel itself out.
MrLawrenceV 1 year ago
@MrLawrenceV I'm NOT catholic but agree with you!!
mythicalhell 1 year ago
@mythicalhell I'm not catholic. But that doesn't matter, because you can't simply ignore the parts of history you don't like.
MrLawrenceV 1 year ago
@MrLawrenceV I don't ignore parts of History I don't like as a matter of fact I tend to focus on those parts as much the parts I do like, do you?
mythicalhell 1 year ago
@MrLawrenceV
"And no, double heresy doesn't cancel itself out."
I liked that :)
- Heretic x 2 with a sense of humor
jimboo40 1 year ago
Thank you, Pastor Mark Driscoll, for making it clear that I'm a terrible person. Keep on passing judgement on everyone - your going to change the world!
dpe4 1 year ago 2
He mixes up purgatory with penance.
JazzHill 1 year ago
Hey how about this...religion as a whole is Bull ****!
PUGS1688 1 year ago 2
I was offended at the first 2 mins. Then I realized he IS NOT TALKING ABOUT PAGANS. He is talking about a new form of catholizism. Not Pagans (Wiccans Asatru ect....)
wargrasa 1 year ago
Human, by very nature, search out the tangible. When I say tangible I mean things we can see, touch, hear, and feel etc.. Religion in general is a load of crap in MY OPINION. Its all based off of someones ideals based off of a book that has risen in society to be GOD himself. Most "Christians" see the Bible as GOD because they need something tangible when in truth all you need is the conviction to OPEN YOUR EYES.
saphirereflection 1 year ago
I like his shoes! ha its cool how he dresses down to earth bc he doesnt feel like hes all better than you like most preacher people
j7sh1 1 year ago
I Pk Mods I
TiggleProductions 1 year ago
You need a few years in religion theory and read up on what Paganism and Wicca really are. If you knew so much about it then you would know that Christainity is based on the Pagan belief system - you moron.
brandiwine100 1 year ago
this sounds like all the other religions out in the world. CUCKOO!!
sexistoner83 1 year ago
Take a good look, at this heinous excuse for a human being. He's not just deluded, he's a fucking liar. He is promoting masochism....no thanks guy.
HelmutVonSphincter 1 year ago
PART2
for forgiveness. now this is where the rest ties in really.
you cant do some sort of "ritual" and get forgiveness out of it. cuz theres no heart in there. u cant wais time on numbers of a prayer or HOW MUCH money n all that jazz.
u must repent from your heart, of coarse not your mind as well. easy way to xplain is heart= your true intentions. like killing for defense well your heart wasnt hatefull ya know. so repent make it genuine to God and ask for forgiveness. thats basically whats up.
decay789 1 year ago
This guy is all wrong.
jimjaas 1 year ago
break it down for yall:
he is accurate in his definition for paganism. cuz its the worldly sunday christian peganism. ppl who follow a religion n dont have a relationship with Jesus. Just ppl who go by what they heard n not wuts in Gods word thinking yah its right n i believe in the word...
as far as forgiveness God is mercifull in that you cannot make him do it.
so u must confess and repent. now this is where the rest ties in. quick note worldly sorrow is just bein sorry & isnt the way to ask
decay789 1 year ago
this guy is possibly one of the most ignorant christian dip shits to ever walk the earth
THErustyPELlCAN 1 year ago
what on earth does any of this mean?
baffling weirdness
Crapulency 1 year ago
And in today's comment section, people talk about what they think is right while not listening to others.
ZoltanKH 1 year ago
YOU DON'T KNOW WHO GOD IS. NO ONE DOES. It's fucking 2010 stop pretending you know this shit.
TheWiseCommenter 1 year ago
Not too bright, this guy.
fruitjooz 1 year ago 2
god this guy needs to check out matrix energetics. This shit starts getting soooooo complicated dude.
sickasso72 1 year ago
The first twenty seconds of this he makes himself look stupid. Pagans don't believe in God. Paganism is an umbrella term covering a lot of smaller, earth-based paths. A lot of Pagans practice the belief of more than one god, not God himself.
People need to do their research before getting on YouTube and making themselves look like asshats. Seriously.
AlthenaGoddess 1 year ago 2
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DPBenvy 1 year ago
So....When can we expect your gay affair scandal?
gohepcat 1 year ago
You know, honestly, I wonder if saying "God is good" is really the truth! God isn't always good, you know? Sometimes he chastens, sometimes he chastises and sometimes he lets us make a huge, huge mess of our own lives. I wonder if it's more accurate to say that "God has perfect character." It's confusing to me to say God is good sometimes!
annemarieoregonsport 1 year ago
@annemarieoregonsport
When God chastises you, is that bad on his behalf? Or is he being just and good to chastise and rebuke where neccessary?
And when God 'lets you make a mess of your own life', is God punishing you, or is it a trial by fire where you come out the other side, more like Christ? That is what our life is; becoming more like Christ. That is true goodness. God is more concerned with your eternal fate than your temporal discomfort.
masteroftheobvious86 1 year ago
@annemarieoregonsport When we do something wrong (let's say, break a law) - the Officer will arrest us and any charges may and most likely will be laid. In as much as the same way, we are dealing with THE Most High, Adonai, He has every right to punish us for anything bad we do and have done, however, He also is rich in mercy. As far as making a huge, huge mess of our own lives, can we really blame God All Mighty for what WE do? I think that's dangerous to do.
Studd911 1 year ago