Acupuncture Techniques in Traditional Chinese Medicine : How Does Acupuncture Work?

[SilverSwami]

"Meridians"

[hansacupuncture]

Good site to acupuncture therapy - wwwtukaram.cieaura.com

Recommend

[ClementsTom]

What is the word he says beginning with 'M'?

[i2die4x]

@ClementsTom mechanisms?

[ROKU131]

SHORT COMMENT FTW!!!

[robertlowryjr]

Tastentier - So we get it. You have a personal crusade to bash Acupuncture. The rest of us will take the advice of the National Institute of Health, The World Health organization, Mayo Clinic, The UCLA and SDtanford Schools of Medicine. The former ENDORSE Acupuncture (because it has been proven though many, many Double blind placebo controlled trials) and the latter teach it to MD's because it WORKS.

The leaders in Medicine are for it, you are against it. Let it go bro...

[WaxMeister]

sorry but... did he say suckulation??? Just a minute... yup... suckulation! Great, gonna get my girlfriend some acupuncture!

[sn1pe352]

I say this because until we understand Water and Electricity from micro to macro we will never understand the laws which govern the cosmos and also the minutest spaces of human beings, apply electricity to your muscles and watch them contract and expand, that is qi-ki-chi and is proof enough that its "real", if you understood true unified physical laws of the cosmos-nature how it governs ALL things including the human body you would have little to no doubt this is real, Water and Electricity

[Tastentier]

Sorry, but this is unscientific mystical nonsense. It's the kind of language used by people who lack a proper school education, but want to pass themselves off as knowledgable or scholarly to even more uneducated folks. Yes, electricity triggers muscle contraction. That is an electric current though, not qi or chi. Such an ion current is utterly unimpressed by your sticking needles in the patient. It is not your magical qui, it has nothing to do with the unproven concept of qui or meridians.

[kieniscool]

It does work, and I think especially for disorders related to nervous system or neuro (don't know how to say it right). My father is a doctor in Vietnam who studied Germany, he also has many friends who are specialized in traditional medical practice. Being very critical to traditional practice he still never denied its effectiveness sometimes. There are good and bad doctors for every practices. And if a treatment gives good measurable results, it doesn't matter if its placebo or not.

[robertlowryjr]

Tastentier siad "pain is a field where mere suggestion is enough"

Oh really? So why didn't the MDs "mere suggestion" work, because most people that see acupuncturists go to MDs first. Many Acupuncturists see pain patients after they had surgeries, have been on multiple meds, had MRIs, been to neurologists and pain centers...all to no avail. they are "placebo-ed" OUT by the time they drag themselves to an acupuncturist.. MD credentials on the wall have measureable placebo effect too.

[Tastentier]

One reason is that the trust in proper doctors is being ruined by all the sham practicioners, such as acupuncturists. I've been "treated" by such people myself. A major part of their sales pitch is the claim that proper scientific medicine is the devil, that pharmaceuticals only cause more symptoms, or addiction or turn something relatively harmless into a chronical disease. That's also a reason why so-called alternative medicine can be an outright danger to the patient.

[robertlowryjr]

Tastentier - Do you know that 1/3 of the Masters in Traditional Chinese Medicine are courses taught by Licensed Physicians? Or that the Masters requirements are dictated by the US Dept of Education not "made up among themselves" as you said? Western Medicine is highly regarded in the TCM schools and if a person wants to get a Doctorate, the last two years are moslty Western Medicine. It is YOU sir that has flaky, unscientific preconceptions. You have nothing to stand on so you make stuff up.

[Tastentier]

Another reason is that MDs rarely prescribe placebos. They prescribe things that have an effect. And side effects, as everything that actually does anything within the body. (One hint that acupuncture does pretty much nothing is the lack of side effects. Give a patient with low blood pressure the acupuncture treatment for high blood pressure, and he won't feel any worse). Anyway, patient reads package insert, reads about side effects = nocebo effect, the exact opposite of a placebo effect.

[robertlowryjr]

tasteentier - Acupuncturists think that "proper" medicine is the devil? Oh Really? Why is 1/3 of their Masters Degree in Western Medicine?

Mayo Clinic, our National Instututes of Health, the World Health Organization all endorse or USE acupuncture while the Stanford and UCLA Schools of Medicine teach it to MDs. Ultra-Scientific Germany now provides Acu as part of their National Healthcare.

It is NOT Placebo, it would be illegal for MDs to us it in place of other therapies if it were.

[Tastentier]

I have no idea what kind of master's degree acupuncturists make up among themselves. Around here, acupuncture is not part of any professional education in the medical field. I've already pointed out the "trial" of the Mayo Clinic as a poor study without a placebo group, and I've also explained why the WHO is very poilitically correct about traditional sham treatment like acupuncture, ayurveda and so on (they don't "endorse" it, they merely talk around the fact that it's witchdoctery). So...

[robertlowryjr]

Tastentier - well chief, if you lived in the United States you would have a vague idea what is going on in Healthcare. Mayo Clinic didn't run some "trial" that failed, they have an Acupuncture Department now. They are ultra-conservative and lead the world in cutting edge medicine, so I will take their expert opinion over the rantings of an obviously biased ranting opinion such as yourself.

[Tastentier]

...so you're merely repeating arguments that have already been refuted. As for your other claim: I live in the supposedly ultra-scientific Germany, where apothecaries carry homeopathic "medicine", dentists experiment with hypnosis like stage magicians and the widely uneducated majority easily falls for scams such as magnet therapy, which are then financed by the one or other health insurance in order to win customers (there is not one big national healthcare anymore, but...

[Tastentier]

...but healthy competition in the health insurance sector. which is exactly why a lot of bullshit treatments are being paid for nowadays; the patients want it, the insurances pay it in order to compete).

There's a reason that most progress in the medical sector happens in the USA nowadays. In any case, acupuncture is still alternative medicine. Some insurances pay it as placebo treatment for knee and back pain. They list it under "psychosomatic medical care", which should tell you something.

[Tastentier]

From micro to macro? Ancient sacred sciences? Vibratory physics? With all due respect, you are talking utter bullshit here. And you'd know that if you really had the university education that you claim to have. Either you were laughing your behind off as you tried to come up with as much blatant nonsense as possible, wondering if I'd fall for this, or you're simply an uneducated person who thinks that this pseudo-scientific blurb will make you sound knowledgable. Either way, I'm done here.

[sn1pe352]

You can't discuss the ocean with a well frog - he's limited by the space he lives in. You can't

discuss ice with a summer insect - he's bound by a single season. You can't discuss the Way with a cramped scholar - he's shackled by his doctrines.

[Tastentier]

By the way, this shows which level of education it takes to argue in favor of acupuncture. No offense meant.

To say something constructive: Don't waste any more money on esoteric books, it's really not worth it. Rule of thumb: Whenever somebody tells you that they can explain how everything works, in a way that is easy to understand, they're lying to you. Do yourself a favor and get a real education. I highly recommend the audio & DVD lectures of The Teaching Company, or a college degree.

[sn1pe352]

english is my secondary language , im originally from sweden, i will soon have my PhD in theoretical physics while you continue to argue textbook garbage as if its the word of god, Micro to macro,sacred sciences,vibratory physics..what is wrong with these terms? Especially because its purely a fact of nature

[Tastentier]

I'm German, and English is my second language as well. This is not a language problem we're having here, you're simply talking esoteric nonsense. If you were studying any field of science, you'd be aware of that.

There is no such thing as vibratory physics, "micro to macro" doesn't mean anything, and "sacred sciences"... I mean, really now. Outside of the world of pseudo science and witchdoctory, none of this means anything. You, Sir, have no education in the natural sciences whatsoever.

[power1890998]

What can it help with? Is it effective for neurological disorders?

[Zo0mY]

adeek tetsha2leb

[pookajonson]

Does Acupuncture help to loose weight? ANyone got experience to share?

[eukaryote90]

I didn't believe this would work until I went in and did it for my migraines. I was absolutely amazed. I have no clue how it works, but I don't care. Give it a try if you are suffering from something.

[brev5653]

Don't dismiss this treatment just because science hasn't been able to accurately describe it. Remember that the "scientific" studies that we see are only the ones people have been willing to fund, and that statistics can be skewed easily and be very misleading.

[brev5653]

Several of my performance horses have received acupuncture treatments and it has shown immediate and dramatic results with pain from arthritis, joint stiffness, soft tissue injuries, and colic. In other words, after acupuncture treatments (and I mean IMMEDIATLEY after) my horses no longer limp from pain, swelling in injured areas goes down, and signs of pain from colic (elevated heart rate, BPM, and kicking at the stomach) subside dramatically.

[brev5653]

Acupuncture is great -- It's helped me with issues from pinched nerves to chronic interstitial cysitis. The best testament is the fact that it works on ANIMALS -- they obviously have no expectations of the effects and therefore you eliminate the "placebo-effect".

[thesorethumb]

It doesn't matter if it's placebo or not, as long as the patient feels better.

[EALIXA]

I personally know many people who were treated with acupuncture for different conditions and it worked: migraine,

depression, sinusitis, chronic backache, insomnia...

I have tried it recently and found the results quite surprising.

[Lockpicker]

Acupuncture isnt in the mind a recent study did a placebo effect on people with needles that retracted into the handle... and guess what? the placebo didnt work they didnt get the outcome from what real needles give

[Farbly]

My dads taiwanese. and hese been watching lots of acupuncture vids. lol. and he showd me one tht actually worked! i thought it was gonna b dumb, but it actually works! it got rid of my runny nose for like an hour. and thne i just do it again :) this stuff actually works :)

[ColectvIndvidulism9]

Thank you for posting this information.

[deepeeeh]

I live in Taiwan. I have R.A. and my accupuncturist is giving up on me. He's sending me to a clinic where I get to be stung by a bee 3 times a week. Very effective he says.

[Tastentier]

In other words: All studies where the acupuncturist knows if he gives "real" or placebo treatment are bound to show confirmation bias, and even with this bias the results of the placebo group are pretty close to the test group. Besides, "success" is only "proven" when the result can't be measured, but is based on the patient's verbal statements. Finally, at least in cases of r.arthritis it's clear that acupuncture doesn't do anything.

[Tastentier]

The one study on rheumatoid arthritis is not only biased but also dates back to 1974. There's a newer study from 1999, "The effect of acupuncture on patients with rheumatoid arthritis: a randomized, placebo-controlled cross-over study", J.David, S.Townsend, R.Sathanathan, S.Kriss and C.J.Doré1, published by the British Society for Rheumatology; it shows that acupuncture doesn't reduce the inflammatory markers and comes to the conclusion that acupuncture is pointless in cases of R.A.

[Tastentier]

I have reviewed the papers mentioned by mg200442000. Most of them focus on pain and nausea, i.e. symptoms where the placebo effect can truly shine. No proper double-blind trials since the acupuncturist knew if "real" or "sham" acp. was applied. The "success rates" of the placebo control groups were too close to the results of the test groups to be deemed statistically significant (about 10% difference only). This doesn't prove anything.

[mg200442000]

Study: Man SC et al. Preliminary clinical study of acupuncture in rheumatoid arthritis. Journal of Rheumatology, 1974, 1:126-129.

[mg200442000]

References

1. Lewith GT et al. On the evaluation of the clinical effect of acupuncture. Pain, 1983, 16:111-127.

2. Pomeranz B. Acupuncture analgesia for chronic pain: brief survey of clinical trials. In: Pomeranz B, Stux G, eds. Scientific bases of acupuncture. Berlin/Heidelberg, Springer-Verlag, 1989: 197-199.

3. Richardson PH et al. Acupuncture for the treatment of pain-a review of evaluation research. Pain, 1986, 24:15-40.

[danmoore5000]

Ah, I'm sorry, I didn't see these. I'll look at them as well.

[danmoore5000]

Ok, I can't seem to get more than the abstracts of the articles you cited mg, but most of the other articles that cite them seem to be concluding that their placebos and controls weren't sufficient to test acupuncture.

[mg200442000]

Ask the World Health Organization, they used the study.

[danmoore5000]

Mmm, yes, the WHO does use those studies, but they tend to say inconclusive things like 'may be useful in helping to treat condition x'. There is also not a substantial discussion of placebos, they often don't specify methods of action, they note that there are varying levels of effectiveness, and many of the 'conditions' described are conditions that can go away on their own (hiccups, anxiety, constipation).

[danmoore5000]

For example, for the case of rheumatoid arthritis, they say, "While acupuncture may not improve the damage that has been done to the joints, successful pain relief has been verified in the majority of controlled studies". There are hundreds of other 'traditional' treatments that can do that for some people, including placebo.

In short, it's easy to say that acupuncture completely cures some things and helps others when 'some things' is hiccups and 'others' is arthritis pain.

[mg200442000]

Why did the WHO use them then? Are they not credible?

[danmoore5000]

"Why did the WHO use them then?"

Good question.

On their website they say that their plan is to use alternative medicines in places where western medicine isn't available, costs too much, etc. I guess they figure culturally targeted placebos will be better than nothing.

[danmoore5000]

"Why did the WHO use them then?"

Good question.

On their website they say that their plan is to use alternative medicines in places where western medicine isn't available, costs too much, etc. I guess they figure culturally targeted placebos will be better than nothing.

[robertlowryjr]

Is that why the UCLA and Stanford Medical Schools teach acupuncture to Doctors because Western medicine isn't available or affordable here in the US? If it was only Placebo the FDA would shut down those and every other school that teaches acupuncture.

Acupuncture is better than Placebo,thats one reason the FDA approved acu needles as a medical device back in 1996. If it was BS the lawyers and lobbyists from the insurance companies would surely overturn the mandates in some states that cover it.

[danmoore5000]

Well I'm very encouraged that you're using accredited medical institutions to make your case. However, I remain somewhat skeptical because the science does not yet appear to be conclusive and, probably more importantly, because I have yet to have the physiology of acupuncture explained to me in a modern medical context.

Perhaps you can help me with that. How does acupuncture actually work? I've been waiting for someone to explain that to me sufficiently for a long time.

[danmoore5000]

"Why did the WHO use them then?"

Good question.

On their website they say that their plan is to use alternative medicines in places where western medicine isn't available, costs too much, etc. I guess they figure culturally targeted placebos will be better than nothing.

[danmoore5000]

Oh wow. The post button didn't gray out immediately after I clicked it... sorry for all the repeat posts.

[mg200442000]

Interrater reliability?

[Tastentier]

Here's what really happens, without any pseudo-science: Any treatment that you manage to believe in will a) cause an endorphin release, caused by excitement due to high expectation, and b) lower the amount of stress hormones in the body. This placebo effect can have a positive effect on people's health, at least for a short time. It's no reliable cure for anything though.

[kiranphalke]

All you have said is not true and it is proved beyond doubt that acupuncture is better than a placebo effect.

[Tastentier]

I didn't find any proper, randomized, double-blind trials yet. Can you provide some links?

[robertlowryjr]

Tastentier - I have links to double blind placebo controlled studies but they are in the cochrane database. but since you are a healthcare expert you already know that Cochrane (the formost database on western medical trails) is FLOODED with such trials proving the eficacy of acupuncture.

This is why Mayo Clinic and all major urban hospitals use it, and why UCLA and Stanford Schools of Medicine teach it to MDs.

How are you more qualified than the NIH and the WHO, Mayo, UCLA and Stanford?

[Tastentier]

As for those trials: I haven't seen any that was properly double-blinded, randomized and placebo-controlled (which could only be done by "false" acupuncturists, laymen poking needles into random spots). The Standford trial in 2001, for example, was such a pro-acupuncture biased hoax study. There was no real placebo group resp. no placebo treatment. And the WHO has political reasons, they can hardly call traditional Chinese medicine a sham. If you have any links, I'll be happy to look into them.

[Tastentier]

By the way, what do you make of the fact that the entire basis of acupuncture is entirely unscientific and esoteric, if not to say mystic or magical? All claims that have been made about the function principle are not only unproven, but thoroughly disproven by the fact that there are no meridians in the human body, and no such thing as qi that flows through these obscure points. Ask any biologist or proper MD what he thinks of meridians and qi.

[sn1pe352]

He might not be but I am, 2 years at caltech,2 years at mit,doing 4 now at UCF getting my PhD in theoretical physics and also studying electrophysiology, I can confidently tell you that none of the schools I have attended have ANY CLUE about the physical laws which REALLY govern our cosmos, we do not understand Water and Electricity, and until we (Academia) understands Water and Electricity from micro to macro people like you will be Lost and Wrong, Stop pretending like you know what your saying

[kiranphalke]

There is also a question about the validity of double blind trials. According to some the same criteria cannot be applied to acupuncture and a diffrent design of experiment must be applied.

Thank you

Kiran

[Tastentier]

Sorry, there is only one scientific method in the medical sector: A double-blind, randomized trial with a placebo group. If acupuncture can't be tested this way (double-blind placebo needles have already been developed in Japan, but so far no trial has been done), we must assume that it doesn't do anything beyond the placebo effect.

[kiranphalke]

I think I have nothing to say on this as I am in acupuncture for last twenty years and medical field did not give any results even with palcebos to my patients. We must see the wellbeing of the patient first and then think about science.WHO has agreed that it works better than placebo

[mg200442000]

kiranphalke, I am acupuncture provider also. Just like you, I witness miracles everyday I practice.

[kiranphalke]

Dear one

thank you you can share your sucsess with me privately

[robertlowryjr]

It's funny because if its placebo then why didn't their family MD help, or the specialist help that they were sent to, or the many "cures" they tried from the internet or anecdotal sources, because it is usually after all of this that acupuncturists finally get to treat the patient. It is my personal experience that the more failed attempts you have at something the lower your faith becomes, thus your chance of placebo working diminish also. Look up what "nocebo" effect is.

[kiranphalke]

Any Objection if the patient recovers with AP treatment? Cure is important. Has science proved the action of any medicine or etiology of any disease by now? No always say plausible mechanism is such and such. Remember thalidomide? What is the use of such a result? Read the book Death by prescription. What is the proof that we exist? We make use of different cell groups for which we call as we? Continue the discussion I am not angry. Can we prove that we exist with double blind trial?

[Tastentier]

Here's how cures are tested in medical science: Two large groups with the same illness participate in a trial. One group gets a placebo, the other group the medicament.The patients are randomly assigned to the groups and neither doctors nor patients know if they get the real medicament (randomized,double-blind). Only after the trial, the results are compared to the lists.And only if the test group show better results than the placebo group, statistically relevant results, the medicament works.

[Tastentier]

All medicaments currently used in conventional medicine have been proven to work this way. What's important to know is that some people in the placebo group get better too. By the so-called placebo effect or pure coincidence - often diseases do get better by coincidence resp.our immune system manages to fight them. Therefore, single cases of supposedly cured people (anecdotal evidence) can't be considered as evidence.

[kiranphalke]

Hi

World health organization is the final authority and I do not need any other evidence to prove that acupuncture works or not and even if it is palcebo that does not stop any one from doing acupuncture practice,And wait the time will come as west has just started looking at it.

[Tastentier]

One word on the WHO: The WHO states that acupuncture works in fields where placebos have also proven most successful, i.e. pain, nausea and insomnia. All of this is intensified or sometimes caused by worries or fear, i.e. stress. The nature of the placebo effect is to lower stress levels. No one argues that placebos can help with stress-induced problems, or problems that are made worse by stress.

[robertlowryjr]

Is that why the UCLA and Stanford Medical Schools teach acupuncture to Doctors? If it was only Placebo the FDA would shut down those and every other school that teaches acupuncture and ban licensure.

Acupuncture is better than Placebo,thats one reason the FDA approved acu needles as a medical device back in 1996. If it was BS the lawyers and lobbyists from the insurance companies would surely overturn the mandates in some states that cover it.

[mg200442000]

Ahonen E et al. Acupuncture and physiotherapy in the treatment of myogenic headache patients: pain relief and EMG activity. Advances in Pain Research and Therapy, 1983, 5:571-576.

[Tastentier]

Thanks for the list of references, mg200442000. I'll see to it that I get copies, try to read them without confirmation bias and report back. Pain is a field where mere suggestion is often enough, but the clinical study on arthritis looks interesting since CRP and leukocyte values can be measured. If acupuncture helps in this field, I'd be convinced that it works.

[mg200442000]

Testentier-'It's not a reliable cure for anything though?' And your response wasn't correct at decribing the mechanism by which it works either. I've been an acupuncturist for 10 years, but one doesn't have to practice that long to know that you are full of shit !

[Tastentier]

Where have I been wrong? Arguments please, not just accusations. Btw, the title "acupuncturist" says nothing in the field of medical science, you could as well call yourself a witch doctor. What would you say how acupuncture works? Let me guess: Magical energy that can't be measured by any technical device flows through invisible meridians in the body, and the needles somehow affect this unproven energy?

[mg200442000]

Unproven in your world !

[Tastentier]

Unproven in the world of medical science. If you know of a properly done trial that prove me wrong, please inform me or link them in your YouTube profile. Same with evidence against the well known and sufficiently tested placebo effect - if you have any, I'm interested. Wild claims and insults are counter productive if your goal is to establish acupuncture as proper medical treatment.

[robertlowryjr]

So it's not medical science that is being taught at the world renowned UCLA and Stanford Schools of Medicine? They teach acupuncture there for MDs and currently have at least 5000 MDs practicing acupuncture in their conventional practice. So how are you more qualified than these two mainstream, upstanding, and outstanding medical schools to judge what is and what is not scientific?

[mg200442000]

good point Robertlowryjr...and all of the 12,000 M.D.'s in europe are trained in auricular acupuncture and use it in practice.

[robertlowryjr]

Thanks for the info on Europe,I know France and England have had it around a longer time than us and are developing their own styles,but it all is very close to Chinese in the big picture. I took a Critical Appraisal of the Literature Class and looked on the cochranereview website (my grad school has full access) and reviewed the reviews so to speak for many acupuncture studies here in the US. Very astounding at how many are published favorably in the Annals of Internal Medicine here in the USA

[danmoore5000]

That none of you ever bring up even one study that has utilized proper scientific method does not bode well for the claims of acupuncture.

[mg200442000]

Please feel free to look beyond this video and look for other resources. The studies are there. There are sham vs. real acupuncture studies, acupuncture vs. physical therapy for conditions and physical therapy with acupuncture (complimentary treatment) used with conditions to achieve a faster outcome with greater results. I myself, am far too busy to do the research and find articals for you. Nor do I care about your personal opinion. Look them up to apease your own brain.

[Tastentier]

I've seen those studies and they were not double-blinded. The acupuncture therapists knew if they gave "real" treatment or "sham" treatment. Patients who knowingly participate in a test will pay close attention to the feedback of the therapist, which causes bias on both sides. Furthermore, the results are not statistically relevant. 20% vs. 30% "success" is no success, both is a common placebo success rate.

[Tastentier]

Another objection is the illness that is supposedly proven to be cured. Something like migraine is easily "suggested away", i.e. the patient is very likely to say "Yes, it's really better now". Acupuncture claims to cure severe chronical diseases like asthma though, and there's no study for such illnesses. If you had convincing edvicence, you wouldn't be too busy to post it here.

[kiranphalke]

Well can you prove that it is a pseudo science? All belivers in Standard pathy do not get cured in fact most of them become worst after the treatment.

[Tastentier]

I don't know what the standard treatment is in your country, but conventional medicine in Western countries has of course the best healing rate and is the only form of medicine that has been proven to work according to the scientific method, in trials where also the possible side effects were analyzed. Conventional medicine includes surgery of course; I think we don't need to argue if heart surgery or appendix surgery works as intended.

[mg200442000]

4. Man SC et al. Preliminary clinical study of acupuncture in rheumatoid arthritis. Journal of Rheumatology, 1974, 1:126-129.

[danmoore5000]

Well it's about time you posted a reference to some data that scientists might actually respect, but do you have anything more recent than 1974? I can't seem to find a copy of that paper - only references to it. Additionally, a 2007 study I found says that the definition used for sham acupuncture in Man et al. was "points far away from the painful area without stimulation". I suspect they included that because they didn't consider it sufficiently double-blind.

[MikeIsMyHero]

Translation please

[ReynaldoVazquez]

Reary increadibre!

[ReynaldoVazquez]

Reary incredibre!

[cazzo53]

if i was to let needles on my body.. man!! Asians know their shi-t.

so far to my consciousness, i will trust none else but Asians...

Western doctors will say, for your headache

"we need to place this" MAN! KEEP THEM NEEDLES DA FAKCC OUTTA MY FACE NUKK!!!

Asians rule!

[gretchenman]

hmmm

[chinaboi41]

interesting