Doctor Who Xmas 2007 - what went wrong?

[PetersonZF]

Well, the real reason Kylie had to die was because otherwise she'd essentially have cold bloodedly murdered a man in a wheelchair. Of course, as you say, it doesn't make sense in the context of the story *at all*.

But that 'dramatic' first shot of her in the forklift is so embarrassingly naff, you'd think it couldn't get any worse than that. And then it goes into slow motion, by which point, my skin is crawling.

[BenAshton24]

Well, you got your wish! I've just realized that all of my favorite episodes in the 2005+ series have been written by Steven Moffat so hopefully series 5 / 31 or whatever they're calling it will be epic :)

[DomSezXL]

@BenAshton24 Rumour has it, Moffat will be calling it "Series 1" which will be interesting.

[luvjustin]

And orgy references in a FAMILY (not kids) show.. Fine with me. If you're not old enough to get in then it makes no differnce to you. Have you seen Shrek? Thats a kids film and has many an adult theme!

[DieHardDom]

I've not seen Shrek, but I've seen adult themes brought in to Simpsons and other shows and it's done with context and so it has a reason to be there. It's not just crowbarred in for no reason.

If there was any reason for orgies to be mentioned in a kids/family show, then fine - although I'd be interested in the justification - but when there's no reason it just stands out as lazy writing - which RTD does in spades with sci-fi.

[luvjustin]

What's wrong with a gay reference, surely its a good thing that kids are exsposed to this sort of thing early on so they get used to it. If you read "The Writer's Tale" you'll see that thats his point.

Plus, its Doctor Who, its Christmas Day. Of course its going to be camp! You're never going to get a Human Nature type episode around the festive period.

[DieHardDom]

It's the fact they're thrown in without any context. The last ep of series 4 showed this best when a line was inserted late into the edit - since no-one says anything to lead up to this, nor does anyone react to it after or look at him - when there were several Doctors (including a DoctorDonna) and Jack goes "Oh, you just can't imagine what I'm thinking!!"

Erm... it was out of place and do we need orgy references in a kids show? No, we don't.

[DieHardDom]

And before you ask, I'm a big fan of Queer as Folk, but Doctor Who isn't the place for this when they're not going to back it up with context.

[luvjustin]

Firstly, anything gaywise doesn't need to be backed up with context. If they show a fleeting glance of a hetro couple kissing, we don't have to make an issue out of that, we don't need a backstory. It just is what it is. Making a big issue of of homosexuality is drama is where writers go wrong. The references are just in there along with the pop culure referces and general life musings.. it shouldn't be and issue. And I don't think it is for most people.

[DieHardDom]

It's not just RTD's own episodes he crowbars gay references into. Look at the first part of the Daleks in Manhattan 2-parter when the Doctor was underground with Martha and a few others including a guy called Frank who was one of the guys following along.

The Doctor was talking to Martha and said, "..if we get out of this I'll give you a kiss, Martha..... you too, Frank, if you like".

The last line was a comment that didn't need to be there and was clearly just thrown in for no reason.

[luvjustin]

I really don't see your point here. It was just a cheeky little comment... its there to make you smile, lighten the mood.

[DieHardDom]

Since there's no context - and any writing about anything needs to have context otherwise there's no point in it being there - it just comes across as lazy writing/interfering (in others' scripts) from RTD.

The only episodes he's never thrown such things in is with Moffat's eps. Thankfully, when Moffat takes over, we'll see an end to this crassness.

[luvjustin]

Crass? What was crass? The orgy thing? Or is it just the fact that its an all male orgy? I just don't see it as an issue, I sat and watched that with my whole family, everyone laugh, rolled their eyes.. its just Jack. That is something he would 100% say! Its probably what a lot of people were thinking. And correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure it was a Moffat script when Jack first appeard and was every but as "cheeky"...

[DieHardDom]

Well, the proposed orgy was 1-part female.

Yes, I remember now that Moffat's first 2-parter suffered from some lazy interjection from RTD, particularly in part 2 when Jack and the Doctor may as well have been chasing each other round the Tardis and trying to touch each other's bottoms.

Thankfully, Moffat's subsequent eps were untainted.