Jacque Fresco goes out and says that he believes in Extensionality in his videos. Which is the advancement of human evolution through technology, but this is not what the Venus Project is about. Any time modification through means of technology to a human body is mentioned the crazies come out of the woodwork. If any of you were to do a little bit of research you'd know that Jacque says this is a possibility of the future and it is already happening. You have amputees using mechanical arms/legs
@lilurik But as a futurist he predicts these things he doesn't say the Venus Project will do this. What the Venus Project is about is a way of providing the necessities of life to every human being free of charge through way of a self sustaining city. People will be free to explore areas of interest now that they don't have to worry about obtaining food or shelter. It would be a city governed by the scientific method. A method the states your accusations must be able to be tested and replicated.
@lilurik Calling me names like "crazy" and implying I've done no research really really really diminishes your entire argument. I am saying that Fresco, TVP and TZM advocate the creation of such technologies that pose a tremendous danger to the existence of the human race. Nothing about TVP itself suggests that the creation of advanced artificial intelligence or mixing said technology with our human biology would not occur and promotes a way of looking at life which indeed encourages it.
@venusprojection I'm sorry for calling you crazy, I didn't mean it that way. I agree with you to some point. A computer system designed to control all could be dangerous. TVP does walk that fine line. But imagine a computer that doesn't control anything, it just monitors the world. It monitors the the forests, the resources, and the people, but it can't control it. It is just used to alert the people so that they may do something. Computers will be tools. -cont-
@lilurik -cont- The integration of human an machine is going to happen eventually. I believe under our current system where corporations and money are involved it would be more detrimental than in a society where we aren't bound by money. When I think of a world that TVP is proposing I think of Star Trek. There's an episode where they rescue people frozen in space. The people are from the past and they ask how they will get money and Picard responds we've moved past that system of ownership.
@GilKail85 by that i mean, that it is so easy for someone to plant chips that can control my mind, and then i will become a mindless drone, if i can think freely without any one controlling me with a computer chip, then i wouldnt mind evolution.
@4evalovenpeace although i don't fully believe in TZM or the venus project, i dont like spirituality and wouldnt mind being posthuman cyborg as long as i keep my free will
This just shows how utterly retarded the TVP supporters are. They don't do ANY research, they just take everything at face value, and follow fresco without question. Learn to think for yourself and stop being mouth monkeys and repeating what fresco and merola say.
Oh, and may I also ad that we are spiritual beings and although our species could artificially evolve into machines, we must honestly ask ourselves if this is the path we want to choose. I like our human bodies and believe that we can change and evolve ourselves as needed by awareness of consciousness & spirituality. When all humans realize the truth about our current paradigm and their true inner power, this whole planet will transform everything that they do. I've looked forward to 2012!
If I may comment @venusprojection and @Anonymousg64. I don't claim to be an expert, but I'm a very avid reader and investigator on this subject and the like. I can see both sides of your arguments clearly. It's not easy, is it? I personally don't want to see us turn into machines. From what I've learned, beings that have followed that path are now regretful in their inability to ascend or reach all dimensions, planes or levels, if you will. We must be very careful in our choices for humankind.
you are using a computer right? well that is a form of merging with machines as it extends you're capabilities, using technology to enhance humans is trans-humanism. we are already at an early stage of it, its not tvp or tzm thats going to make it happen, its a natural progression.
@Anonymousg64 Well for one, notice the quote from Kurzweil at 0:39 . "Over time, the nonbiological portion will predominate". Do you really want computers to take over your body and mind and control you?
@venusprojection first you're body and mind is already a machine, second you're brain(computer) already controls you, third yes i want to enhance what already is using more advance technology.
like if there is a you to begin with, just a collage of information that generates a perspective, why not enhance the functions that generate the perspective from that database of information?
@Anonymousg64 I understand that is the transhumanist viewpoint. However, it is also a very controversial position. Many would argue that human beings are not computers at all. I don't consider myself to be a machine and I doubt most people would consider themselves machines. We are people, and there is a difference. By "enhancing" ourselves as you put it we would be willingly giving up ourselves completely to a computer program. What you are basically advocating is the end of the human species.
@venusprojection Well you're opinion is assumption based, ignoring the facts that the brain operates using electro-chemical reactions and it is the flow of electrons and the physical changes that processes information. Without information processing you wouldn't work at all. enhancing yourself is not eliminating yourself (it is but so is every second your brain processes information) the illusion of self remains and so does continuity of thought an memory. enhancement is expansion, not destruct
@Anonymousg64 many species die, thats how they evolve, the mutations of those species survive if they are more adequately equipped to survive. the more prominent type will more likely survive over time. this does not mean you will be eliminated by the more prominent species but you're weaknesses will lead to you're own elimination, more specifically you're scientific ignorance combined with the tools and technology of the more advance society, ie suicide, war, self destruction.
@Anonymousg64 I don't agree with your assessments at all but you are providing a good example as to why I am against your movement and The Venus Project. Under your system those on my side of this issue are considered in your own words ignorant and weak and that people who think like us should be eliminated. This is why TVP wants to condition children to accept among other things a transhumanist mindset and those who disagree will be ignored by the system until they are eliminated.
@venusprojection it does not matter if you disagree with gravity or the standard model of physics, you are still bound by its rules. im not saying you should be eliminated, im saying the ignorant will lead themselves to suicide as that is the tendency of ignorant people given tools and technology they do not understand. Im saying progression will be going so fast people like will still be stuck playing cowboy and world war.
evolution did not stop for a being that could refuse to evolve.
@Anonymousg64 Becoming a cyborg and letting intelligent computer programs take control over ones brain is not evolution. Evolution occurs naturally through biology. Turning into cyborgs or becoming total robots is not natural biological evolution nor is it natural at all. You people want to give up your humanity for power and immortality and would sacrifice the entire human race to reach your goals. It's pretty sick if you ask me.
@venusprojection letting a computer TAKE CONTROL over you? that view is totally flawed and would require some logical backing. evolution does not occur only through biology. evolution is not limited to carbon based life forms, silica, metal or any material can become a life form given the right configuration and environment. evolution happens with knowledge and machines, becoming cyborgs is an evolutionary leap forward. humanity is you're opinion, its definition will always vary and evolve also
@Anonymousg64 "letting a computer TAKE CONTROL over you? that view is totally flawed and would require some logical backing."
Again, did you not see the part in Kurzweil's book where he said that the computers that will "enhance" us as you put will become "predominant" over time? The definition of predominant is "to have or gain controlling power or influence... to dominate or prevail over." Kurzweil is one of the foremost experts on this subject.
@venusprojection predominant in the sense it will have the most influence in the self generation, it does not mean it will have control over you only that it will be the more dominant PART of you, such as you're frontal lobes are predominant over you're more primitive brain regions.
@venusprojection it would not sacrifice the human race, it would evolve it and enhance it, and why are you saying WE, its already happening and i think you're pretty sick to try and stop such a progressive evolution, you're traditional views are clashing with the emergence of reality, reality will win and we will continue to evolve or die(over time, not by intent).
And they are also paid so poorly that they really cant pay their living for it when they have to start paying for living there aswell, and the amount of food and shit they get from these "charity" organzations is very minor compared to what they had.
@Jiddufan Your whole argument in the thing about Africa basically comes down to that you don't feel people are helping Africa enough and that in particular the US is keeping them enslaved and it's our fault they're starving. I seriously disagree with that viewpoint. Our Gov gives them billions of dollars in foreign aid while we ourselves go bankrupt. We as individuals have donated more and given more to Africa than any other country in the world. So your viewpoint is not based in reality.
@Jiddufan I'm not saying I like the current system and I'm not saying I support the way it is right now in Africa. The US economy did help power the economy of other nations around the world for a long time and is probably the most responsible for the high quality of life found in many areas all around the world today. But America has been in a decline for the last 100 years due to flawed economic policy and the rapid growth of government which has turned us into a fascist dictatorship.
@Jiddufan The US has also waged all these illegal wars all over the globe which has done a lot of damage. So what I'm saying is the best way out of this mess is to elect Ron Paul for President of the US and end the wars, end the fed and inject new life into the economy and restore all the freedoms that has been taken away from us to act as a model for the rest of the world to emulate and prosper from.
And also many of country leaders even in the better countries are taking peoples permission from there to food for themselves and their village and family away, because the country wants to "globalize" and sell the food away from them even thou their families and relatives and farmed thous lands for many years. And obviously they dont have the money to buy the land from the goverments. So the goverment makes them to work for the goverment to get paid for "money" which they didint need.
For Nestle itself no money is left there for the african society due to the huge profits they make there, they dont have to pay taxes etc in there. They are abusing it so much to make even more and more profit. The amount that they pay for the people who work for them in africa is ridicilously low compared to the amount of money they should be paid for.. Also alot of child labour is being used there aswell.. And ye they farm cacao there.
And obviously we or you, whatever are not giving enough food to the african countries due to the huge amouns of people dying in there for hunger we need to stop taking the food from there in the first place. And so many companies atm pretty much own many of the stuff that is provided in africa. Let's say Nestle has many plantations over the africa and yes Nestle does gve some jobs to african people by that, but they get paid very poorly aswell. And the money that Nestle makes there goes fully
@Jiddufan "And obviously we or you, whatever are not giving enough food to the african countries due to the huge amouns of people dying in there for hunger we need to stop taking the food from there in the first place"
Again, if we didnt buy certain things from them they wouldn't have the money needed to grow the food in the first place. What dont you understand about that? We also give them tremendous amounts of foreign aid, US citizens donate millions to private charities that help Africa and
And indeed it is, the things that you are representing are obviously better than what we have now. So i respect it alot, but we could obviously go even better.
And i thought i already have explaned how we are pretty much enslaving africas bankruption guess you didint read it. Free Market in system of exchange which we need to get rid of in order to have a good society where we can trust eachother, as i have already explaned how the ideology of exchange is actually based on unreliability. And abut the debt clean thinggy, it would be awesome for africa if that's what you meant, but the money loss for people who are in charge of it is huge.
@Jiddufan "Free Market in system of exchange which we need to get rid of in order to have a good society where we can trust eachother, as i have already explaned how the ideology of exchange is actually based on unreliability. And abut the debt clean thinggy, it would be awesome for africa if that's what you meant, but the money loss for people who are in charge of it is huge."
With everything that's going on in the world and all the different cultures involved...(see part 2)
@Jiddufan (part 2) .. i think it's unrealistic to suggest that we all just decide to get along and form global scientific dictatorship that will evenly distribute the necessities of life to the whole world. I know the consequences for going down that road would be catastrophic in my country and in others around the world would result in the deaths of millions and possibly billions. What we need to do right now is save the economy by reducing regulations otherwise it's going to get ugly fast.
And none thous jobs make simply no sense if people would start produce the goods in some place that makes sense instead of running them from A to B with huge distances. Their time and life could be spent on something that makes sense. It's idiotic to think only about your family when this is about all of us not about you and your family. Things need to be based on what is relevant and the resource to have a good life is the relevant, not some permission to access and that's what money is.
Yep africa is full of corrupt goverments and we are only supporting the corrupt goverments there by using them for our own monetary good. And aye citizens there should be raising and take the control from the goverments, but then who pays back their loans is there are is no goverment? Our banks and countries in northern side of the world would loose huge monetary gains by this. They obviously dont want to loose this, i'm not saying that i'm im a conspiracy theorist, but this is a fact.
@Jiddufan You have yet to explain to me how we use Africa for our own monetary good. I already told you how we help Africa by exporting tons of food to them. They export some items to us as well and we pay them good money. This in turn allows them to grow more of their own food as well. As for the debt well they obviously ran their country poorly with all the corruption like I said. The people need to take back their country and change their ways. I for one am for wiping the debt clean.
And how can you get rid of the ones that manipulate the system by being in the system when every1 is only feeding the ones that manipulate the system by supporting the system the way to stop all this is stop supporting the ways and values of this system. And move to a system which makes sense and has decent values like RBE represents. Ofc there are more viable alternatives, but this is the best i know. Or well the best would be total freedom for men, if we could always do the most rational act.
@Jiddufan "Or well the best would be total freedom for men, if we could always do the most rational act."
THE BEST answer is freedom for all people but with freedom comes responsibility. If others act irresponsibly that's their decision and they can suffer the consequences of their actions to serve as an example to others what NOT to do and let the people decide. You can't force others how to run their lives in a free society.
@Jiddufan "And how can you get rid of the ones that manipulate the system by being in the system when every1 is only feeding the ones that manipulate the system by supporting the system"
The current system is not a free market due to manipulation and cronyism. Again it's all about the personal responsibility of a free society and it's our duty to replace the corrupt individuals in government so that corporations can no longer use the government to rig the system in their favor.
And we cause this ideology with our own primite behaviour that should be gotten rid of now and should never even have developed to our brains. Well ofcourse the people who are manipulating the system should be gotten rid off because they are doing nothing good. But the system we live in is based on so irrational reasons, even money is made out of a very important and resource which keeps the life in our planet and it's called wood.
Also your thoughts about that something is threatening you all we care about is that every works together there is no point in this world to have "countries" totally pointless ideology which is only based on unreliability and fear of someone taking something away from you which you in the first place don't even own countries are only made of this primitive thought of owning some kind of territory like animals do. And then you are safe in that territory when nothing should even be threatening
And whats the true point of all thous jobs? No point their existance is purely created out of stupid behaviour with pointlessly exporting stuff from A to B we should only do works that really matter instead of stupidly spending our resources to this kind of stuff.
@Jiddufan The point of those jobs is so that people can provide for their families. It fuels industry and the economy which in turn gives more the chance to succeed in life.
Also that exporting food to the other side of the world also pointlessly uses resources that could be used for real needs when they shouldnt take it away from there in the first place. I know nothing about america exporting tons of food to africa, but it's crearly not fixing any issues.
@Jiddufan Africa is a big place filled with corrupt governments. It's up to the citizens of those countries to do what's in their best interest. It's not the US Governments job description for us to be telling other countries what to do. My solution is for the American people to take the US Government back and so I support Ron Paul for president to use his power to end the wars and stop much suffering in the world. We should not hand power of the whole world over to a global dictatorship
@Jiddufan We need to end the cronism at all levels of government. The big banks and corporations never should have got bailed out in the first place and I support a full investigation and for those responsible for knowing manipulating the system put to justice. If we can do that in America and turn the economy around then people all over the world can follow our example if they decide to do so. I fear the alternative will be a global collapse followed by a corrupt global dictatorship.
But hey if you're in Africa and you wanna convince everybody there to go to a resource based economy and other countries decide to join in then that's their decision I cant tell them how to live. But nobody from those countries can run our government or tell me how to live my life either and many people in my country will do everything they can do stop the implementation of an RBE in the US and protect the constitution from enemies foreign and domestic.
@Jiddufan "Also that exporting food to the other side of the world also pointlessly uses resources that could be used for real needs when they shouldnt take it away from there in the first place."
Actually exporting it creates jobs in many different sectors that fuels the economy which in turn creates more jobs and more prosperity. Because it's exported truckers, boaters, gas stations, shipping companies, software companies you name it all benefit. That creates more jobs for more people.
Giving food etc to poor countires like whole africa is very pointless when we (our system) actually takes it from them in the first place. Every nation in africa produces enough food to feed the whole country, but our system takes it away from them in the first place. The countries sell their food in order to pay back their loans to our northern / western banks which the dictators have taken in the first place without asking from the people of the country.
@Jiddufan ".. our system takes it away from them in the first place. The countries sell their food in order to pay back their loans to our northern / western banks which the dictators have taken in the first place without asking from the people of the country."
Actually the US exports tons of food to Africa for extremely cheap. It's so in-expensive for Africa that it's actually cheaper than growing their own food locally. They also export some things to us, which gives them even more money.
@Jiddufan You are right that the system in Africa has a lot of problems and the US certainly has a lot of problems right now. We do not live in a true free market. It has been the result of people trying to control the government and change the rules in an effort to control the market and also control over us as free individuals. If you want someone to run everything all over the world and completely take over every aspect of all our lives then I am against that.
Uhm the system US and most of the world has makes the reason to charity, first you practically have bankrupted most of the world and then you give a little back when you practically take almost everything.
@Jiddufan Uh... no. There has always been poverty in the world. It is the free market capitalism that has done more to alleviate poverty and raise our quality of life more than any other system in history. It is also not JUST the free market that is needed but also individual freedom and a moral society. In many places all over the world they have dictatorships, socialism and communism and those can definitely be attributed to the state of the world today and not capitalism or individual freedom
@Jiddufan I was actually making a point that the REASON the USA is the most charitable nation in the world is because of our compassion and wealth. We have a free market system that has enabled us to become prosperous, and yet we still give what we can and do what we can for those in need. Of course we would like to see other countries unleash the power of the free market and individual liberty and I do believe that would go a long way toward ending poverty but it can't be forced on anybody.
Charity really has no proper value in helping the issue that causes the need for "charity" should be removed and the reason is our marketing system of exchange and shit people being greedy and others left out. Giving food to africa is like giving a homeless person a home for 2 days and then kicking him out
okay then, just to point out one thing, you got very defensive about someone saying "you watch too much TV" or something, when you just showed a clip of a Terminator movie, its obvious you are construing theories about the project to slander it entirely, please stop wasting everyone's time with ignorant allegations. to me you seem to be on someone's payroll wanting to discredit the entire thing because CHANGE is not acceptable for the people holding the strings currently. Viva Le REVOLUTION!
@macgw86 The terminator foot at the end is meant to be a joke. The sources cited in the video of Ray Kurzweil and Vernor Vinge are enough to back up my argument. "You watch too many movies" is the standard brainwashed response by people who don't know anything and just mindlessly recite what they've been spoon fed. Like Neil in this video, they know nothing about the subject they are talking about. I'm all for change. Just not the kind of change you people believe you want.
Why cant people just give others what they need? Because he doesn't trust that when you give some1 something you are afraid of that you might not get something from him. So you trade with him to ensure that you get something from him when you give something to him. Giving and sharing should be axiomatic for all of us. That's how a society would be good and social because then we can all trust each other and a have good mentality in this world.. Competing destroys our thought about others.
@Jiddufan "Why cant people just give others what they need?"
You know that Americans are the most giving and charitable nation of people in the history of mankind right?
"And also problems are not fixed by a law, we need to fix the issue that causes the problem itself."
Yes but they are important to set guidelines so that innocent people are protected and as a deterrent. It is up to individuals to make the right choices in life. The family unit is very important in that process.
Why cant people just give others what they need? Because he doesn't trust that when you give some1 something you are afraid of that you might not get something from him. So you trade with him to ensure that you get something from him when you give something to him. Giving and sharing should be axiomatic for all of us. That's how a society would be good and social because then we can all trust eachother and a have good mentality in this world.. Competing destroys our thought about others.
And corruption can also be possible there some1 will most likely find a way to fraud people... I hope you know that how money was actually firstly created by gold and silver, which also are resources that can be used for real needs not for some ideology of trade. Why do you think that people trade?
Yap that sounds good in a way, and i neither dont really think that something watching over things constantly is a good idea, but it seems to be necessary. People can only be free when we all know whats the best act and idea about everything in this world for you and me to everyone that's when freedom is possible. Me my self i hate the ideology of trade, it is mostly based on unreliability and lack of trust between us. There shouldn't be trade, because by trading people can also get power
And you still didint say anything about the economical issues that come with then economy is raising in certain countires.. The waste they prodice gets much much worse same with enviromental issues that cars produce etc etc there are so many examples.. Well okay you dont think that the capitalistic marketing system is fine, but you still say that recourse based economy is bad. Do you have any viable options then to solve these things? Money has no proper connection to resources thats the problem
@Jiddufan I don't think you need a centralized economy or governing power to solve environmental issues. It should be left to individuals on their own free will. For instance if a company can create a car that runs well on alternative energy and can make it affordable so that it makes sense to purchase it, then consumers will buy that car. Same with any number of other products. Private property rights can be used to prevent careless waste dumping by corporations when they can be held liable.
@Jiddufan My solution is to let the market run it's course without interference from the federal government. Eliminating chronie capitalism and corporatism where the government unfairly rigs the market to choose the winners and losers is necessary. What is need is a free society and a free market, but one that is protected from fraud through enforcement of the rule of law through a democratic republic form of government that is accountable to the people.
@Jiddufan Oh and also a return to sound money like a gold and silver backed currency or even to let the market decide which currencies should be used by allowing competing currencies. This way if gold becomes too scarce and people need money then something else could be decided by the people to act as money. However printing money out of thin air should not be allowed as it is counterfeit and central banks have proved time and time again to be detrimental to society.
But are they doing anything about the water issues that they are being warned for? No they do something about it when its already too late. Like everything in here. Well obviously i cant be sure about it so my argument is useless. But its a viable possiblity which has been happening alot in our world. And obviously economy raising is fine in a way, but when china is raising it also means that many other countries are going down.
Economical rising in this world only means more Ecolical issues and poinltess consumptioning.. Do you have any idea of how big issues economically there are in china already?? They are even running out of water soon which they are pumping from the depths of the earth already.. In few years if everything goes like this in there the whole land there will be dry and useless! Also it has caused alot of food farming ground to go off because of building huge amounts of houses which are 70% empty aswel
@Jiddufan If the economy grows that means more people can provide for themselves, their families and give their children a chance to be successful in life. Why would I not be in favor of that? I'm not singing the praises of the Chinese government and how they do things over there. Building houses that remain vacant because nobody can afford to live in them just for the sake of employing people is NOT free market capitalism and I never said I supported that.
@Jiddufan "They are even running out of water soon which they are pumping from the depths of the earth already.. In few years if everything goes like this in there the whole land there will be dry and useless!"
That is debatable. Environmentalists have been making inaccurate predictions about resource depletion for years. Fresco himself said in the 70s that in 20 years the world would be a wasteland. There are also ways of manufacturing water by absorbing humidity in the air and other ways.
@Jiddufan "They are even running out of water soon which they are pumping from the depths of the earth already.. In few years if everything goes like this in there the whole land there will be dry and useless!"
That is debatable. Environmentalists have been making inaccurate predictions about resource depletion for years. Fresco himself said in the 70s that in 20 years the world would be a wasteland. There are also ways of manufacturing water by absorbing humidity in the air and other ways.
Yes i know that stuff and i am not simply believing in propaganda and you neither cant say that you have done research unless you have gone to there by urself. or ofc you can but its not based on anything. And i have also watched alot of documents about chinese factory workers etc, they also make insane amounts working hours and their conditions in the places they work are also told to be mostly bad as (When it comes to health) And you tihnk that Economy raising in china is Good??
Um what is actually the bad thing represented in this? I wouldnt mind being a half human half machine if it meant that i could live for thousands for years :) And i simply dont understand why would people want to die.
Transhumanism is some really scary shit. And zeitgeist movement/venus project followers are indoctrinated, thats why you can't reason with them. Thanks for the video.
@skukfas I never said poor people depend on charity. I said that I believe in being charitable towards poor people. I also said that companies looking to widen their profit margins often go to poor countries and open shop which helps the economy of poor countries and over time raises their standard of living and quality of life. Many people are poor and suffering in countries with corrupt leadership and those are problems but rbe is not the solution.
@venusprojection "The free market system and honest money give people the ability to take care of
themselves."
No. U R dependent & limited by the money U have. People living on minimum wage can't afford going to the hospital when they want. & it's obvious we can't all be rich.
& if U happen to born in an enviro. where U can't have proper education, U'll have a very hard time to find a job or even survive.
But even if U have proper education, if U R old or disable U can't take care of yourself.
@skukfas "No. U R dependent & limited by the money U have."
No. You are dependent on yourself and using your abilities to achieve as much as you can in life. As far as people in poor countries where they can barely get enough food and water to survive let alone receive an education, well, I believe in being charitable as well. But those countries have their own problems usually stemming from corrupt government. Also, companies love moving in to poor countries and giving people jobs.
@venusprojection Giving people jobs????????????? They are simply slaving people and giving them just the money to keep them selves barely to survive problems in "OTHER" countries are also our problems there noone is alone in this world.
@Jiddufan If you actually do some research you'll find that chinese factory workers who make 50 cents an hour are basically middle class and can afford to live in houses and provide for their families. 50 cents in china goes much farther than 50 cents in America. They aren't slaves barely able to survive... like I said they are basically middle class. Stop blindly believing propaganda. Their wages have also steadily risen over time as have their living conditions as the economy grows further
@venusprojection "I disagree with the idea that scarcity is the cause of corrupt behavior."
Yes. Scarcity is not the direct cause of corruption. But the need to profit is.
Whether it is to just pay the bills and survive, or to move up in the social ladder.
In a RBE nobody would have the need to profit; everyone would be equal (but with different knowledge and interests) so I think it's safe to say we wouldn't have corruption.
@venusprojection I was scared like you at first but it's true m8. There is no free will. All your actions are consequences of the input you get from the environment. If you get no input, you don't do anything, you don't exist. And currently machines already build machines (3d printers) and A.I. is evolving a lot. It's a natural consequence of technological evolution. So we either go through that evolution in a profit-driven system, Or by one driven by Humans' well being. Make your choice.
That is what Fresco said when I talked to him. I along with many many others obviously disagree with the notion that free will does not exist.
"we either go through that evolution in a profit-driven system, Or by one driven by Humans' well being. Make your choice."
I propose banning the creation of strong a.i. and other similarly dangerous technology as they could pose a considerable danger to the human race. High-tech defense systems should also be created
@venusprojection I'm pretty sure it's proven scientifically that free will doesn't exist. People only have predispositions on how to react and behave upon some external stimuli, so it's not a matter of disagree or not, it's a scientific fact, just like gravity.
And using "dangerous" to classify technology implies a subjective analysis. It's classified as dangerous by who and to who it is dangerous to?
Also, all kind of technology is dangerous at some degree. Knifes, Weapons, Airplanes.
@skukfas "I'm pretty sure it's proven scientifically that free will doesn't exist. People only have predispositions on how to react and behave upon some external stimuli, so it's not a matter of disagree or not, it's a scientific fact"
There is no proof that free will doesn't exist. Yes, the environment does have an impact on behavior but we have the ability to reason and to choose what we do at any given moment and that is free will.
@skukfas High tech defense is needed to defend against technology and of course any other kind of attack. Yes, I am not only against strong ai I am against an RBE / no monetary system as well.
@venusprojection I see. So could U tell me why U are against an RBE/no money system? Where do U think it fails (beside the point where it evolves that "strong AI") ? Do you reckon inequality is a problem?
I'm assuming you already understand a monetary system only provides inequality, since it's obvious the value of something it's proportional to it's scarcity. i.e: If I'm the only one selling oil, I can put whatever price I want.
So if we want to fix this on every field, what do U suggest?
@skukfas I am against RBE for a lot of reasons really. I will be making more videos on those subjects in the future. I disagree with the idea that scarcity is the cause of corrupt behavior. Scarcity and danger from others are both realities we must face to survive. The free market system and honest money give people the ability to take care of themselves but in an rbe everyone is dependent on a system run by "interdisciplinary teams of "experts" not even elected by their constituents.
@skukfas So where the RBE really fails though is that it's impossible to implement in the way Fresco presents it. When I asked him about it, he said that in order for it to work the scientists and engineers and experts would all have to come talk to him and Roxanne to have a clear understanding of the venus project first. I'm sorry, but that's just a ridiculous concept. Now, if we did move into a system sorta like the venus project I wouldn't trust those put in charge of running the system.
@skukfas The idea that during a worldwide economic collapse and amidst all the chaos and famine and violence and widespread panic the whole world would decide to put all their differences aside and agree to share all their stuff and the world together and have a bunch of scientists and machines provide for them is just ridiculous on the face of it. Even if the rbe was created, at the time of it's creation scarcity would still exist therefore corruption as well so the rbe would still be corrupt
I found this video unintelligible . What was the main argument ? if it's about becoming 'cyborgs' I would propose that we already are cyborgs, given the computers, contact lenses and running shoes we use.
@NetworkHuman You have to have some background to understand the video as it's part of a series. I stated that Jacque Fresco started The Venus Project and wrote a book about his proposed society. In this book it details how machines will make most decisions for us automatically on our behalf with the ultimate goal of resource allocation efficiency. He also advocates the transhumanist viewpoint I think you share. Kurzweil shares the same ideas and is recommended reading by Jacque Fresco.
@NetworkHuman After I made those claims I was attacked by TVP/TZM members and told I was making things up. I had a chat room conversation with many of them and Neil, a guy who never was the official spokesman for the venus project but claimed to be and had to stop calling himself that because Jacque asked him to stop for legal reasons, and in this video I used some of that with evidence to back up the fact that TVP/TZM are a transhumanist movement and there is much misinfo on the web about them
Sorry I am not turning myself to a high tech toaster, I d rather die as a meat bag that live in a Marxistic world full of immortal toasters. May you all die from email worms XDD
What is the point of existence if your only going to be programmed or wiped out by a machine AI, what would the AI do without humans? It would simply have no purpose to exist and shut itself down. Humans at some point would have no point to existing either, nothing to do no reason to interact simply exist for existing sake.
I don't see how a non currency system can ever work, how do we trade or acquire things? Were does the possibility of free will and choice ever happen in a society like that.
@KieranD212 Great post. I recently called Roxanne Meadows on the phone and was able to speak to both her and Jacque Fresco. I asked them many questions and when it came to the question of free will I was told by Jacque Fresco that he believes there IS NO FREE WILL. He told me that he believes ideas like free will are wrong and that humans only do things based upon their environment and experiences. This is why he has no problem with machines telling humans what to do and controlling society.
@venusprojection I love how you say that this is backed by science/not science fiction, yet at one point you use a clip from one of the Terminator movies as a scare tactic. The fact is, machines can only go so far as they are programmed. Sure, they can be programmed to improve themselves, but what they will do with that intelligence is still a matter of how it is programmed. They will never feel anything or think on their own. It's still a fucking toaster, a jumble of wires, a tool.
@Nathan173AB "... at one point you use a clip from one of the Terminator movies as a scare tactic."
No that was pretty much just thrown in there for fun and wasn't the focus of any point made.
"The fact is, machines can only go so far as they are programmed. Sure, they can be programmed to improve themselves, but what they will do with that intelligence is still a matter of how it is programmed. "
You're talking about current technology. I'm talking about future technology.
@venusprojection Future technology will still keep the same underlying principle. AI won't get out of control and take us in a bad direction because it can't. It will always be limited by how we program it. It can't just suddenly decide "Hey I'm conscious now I'm gonna enslave humanity." That is sensationalist crap. It only poses a danger if it gets into the wrong hands. Now that you mention it, in the fail market crapitalist cluster-fuck system you advocate, that danger has even more potential.
@venusprojection If you get right down to it, the human is also a tool. It is just a body that we control to roam the Earth with. Long ago, we used a tool called a neanderthal to roam the Earth. It became obsolete/extinct and made room for the superior human. The same will eventually happen to the human. It will be overshadowed by something else. Whether technology or natural selection accomplishes it, it's GOING TO HAPPEN. So stop identifying yourself with your biological form and get over it.
@Nathan173AB "it's GOING TO HAPPEN. So stop identifying yourself with your biological form and get over it."
Biological evolution will continue. Merging with machines or performing genetic modifications on ourselves or growing human being in test tubes is not evolution. Those are agendas supported by a certain segment of the population and is promoted with a lot of propaganda.
@venusprojection How is modifying our genetics NOT evolution? Who are you to say that that is not natural? Evolution is simply life adapting to its environment. Whether it happens by natural selection or technology, it's all the same. The only problem I foresee is merging with machines may make us too dependent on them, but gene modification would make that pointless anyways. I don't know where you get idea of there being a propaganda campaign about it going on. You need to elaborate on that.
@KieranD212 I'm not interested in changing your mind. You won't be able to control your technology once it becomes too advanced. Then it becomes a problem for those against this so called "evolution". Everyone won't want or agree to be assimilated by the singularity. I consider natural biological evolution perfectly normal and fine. Using technology to grow people in capsules or merge together in a nanotech blob is quite obviously not the same thing as natural biological evolution over time.
I think you are confusing personal choice with force or coercion. If certain people in an RBE don't want to undergo transhumanism, they don't have to. No one will force you to change your DNA to prevent cancer, or give you a more powerful brain.
Its called a singularity because no one can predict what will happen. Whether you like it or not people will merge with machines. I would much rather that happen in a peaceful and free society void of power structures, than in the societies of today.
Taking a step back, regardless of which direction humanity takes, its not looking good. The powers that be are calling to order - One world government, one world central banking, a new era of currency via implanted chips and complete identity control electronically. If the majority become convinced that this is for our own good, then humanity is lost.. Longterm, if we truly wish to continue our existence in one form or another Post-Earth, then we need a new level of collaboration. A new system.
alot of what you've used as evidence against Fresco and the V.P. acctually sounds pretty reasonable to me, depending on your perspective. I have to say it looks to me like you are trying to deal with the panic this inspires in your mind b/c you don't yet understand.You say prosthetics are o.k., well, that's artificial..the advancements we make-cybernetics, etc..all artificial, unless you see it as a human creation, then why is it not natural? Why does prosthesis of any extreme mean inhumanity?
@JennJenification Because at it says at 00:39 the machines will dominate us. This happens when you merge man with machine intelligence. Say you want to "upgrade" your thinking capability by adding a technological modification to your brain. When the machine part of your brain outperforms the human part of your brain, that is when the machine becomes the predominant part of your brain, and thus has controlling or influencing power over you. Prosthetic arms do not pose the same dangers.
@venusprojection If research proves that it would be dangerous or harmful to Life to use a computer to assist a Living creature then it would certainly be abandoned. Much of what Jacques Fresco states in his book is a hypothesis of the future, not necessarily fact. Clearly Jacques Fresco has some far out ideas however he strongly supports research based conclusions. I'll say that again, If a computer proved to be dangerous or harmful to any living thing, then it would be abandoned.
@AnnumBcav I agree that it SHOULD be abandoned. However, I can also see how, based on their ideology they don't see it as dangerous or harmful. It's their perspective. They see it as evolving or enhancing themselves through integrating with technology. The problem is that once technology reaches a certain point the singularity will happen and then people being integrated with machines is extremely dangerous to those who are against the transhumanist agenda which would be a minority in tvp.
@venusprojection My friend, I say this gently, How can you "see" through another persons eyes? I agree that you can make an informed decision. But, here's where it gets tricky, when your information, your foundation for your argument is based upon what you are guessing what another persons perspective is, it leaves your case with a hole in it. I do not "know" what Jacques perspective on this is, as you do not "know."
@venusprojection The singularity that you speak of, I know nothing about. I find it difficult to imagine that a computer could or would have such a thing as "motivation." Where does that come from?
@AnnumBcav Once nanotechnology is developed it will then be possible to reverse engineer the human brain and then with that data create a super powerful ai that works just like a human brain. It would also be capable then of improving itself exponentially. This information comes from scientists/inventors such as Ray Kurzweil, Vernor Vinge and others.
@AnnumBcav Oh yea if you're interested check out my upcoming videos which will go over some of the material found in Kurzweil's book "The Singularity is Near" which is on the recommended reading list at the venus project website. In the video I will explain strong ai, runaway ai, the singularity etc and use excerpts from the book so you can read it in his own words.
@venusprojection I admire your determination. I will subscribe to your channel, and remain open to this. Because I am interested in hearing what you have to say on this subject. I'll say that I believe you are skilled at what you are doing. My advice to you would be to learn how to become a professional communicator. There are many teachers out there. Look up Marshall Rosenberg, perhaps he has something you can use. If we are to change this world, we must become ready.
@AnnumBcav The consequences after that are unimaginable. Which is why I support the banning of the development of strong ai or using nanotechnology for the develiopment of a.i. in the USA.
@cooks1234 Having a prosthetic arm or a pace maker is not the same as having a computer chip implanted into your brain to "enhance" your intelligence or injecting nanobots into your blood stream to re-write your genetic code and replace your entire body and mind with intelligent machinery. Can you understand the difference?
@cooks1234 We were both speaking over each other and also other people were trying to speak over me as well I was simply pressing the issue because he kept trying to side-step questions.
Once you're living in the Circle City and the computers are making your decisions for you, he won't be able to ban you because it's a society based on peace and love where everybody agrees to give up their money and property to live in harmony with the re-animated corpse of Jacque Fresco. So don't worry! : )
@MillionthUsername I like the re-animated bit, funny as hell! But tell me, who is making the decisions for you now? What decisions are they making and how will that effect YOU along with 98% of your fellow human beings? Excluding the 2% or less that are making these decisions, for there agenda. Where is peak oil leading to? How is the economic state RIGHT NOW!? I think your missing the point. We need to change, the details just need to be worked out. NWO or RBE? I vote RBE
I must admit to being a bit perplexed. As a (classical, more-or-less) liberal (trans)humanist, I concur with u that we need to carefully safeguard against malign/malevolent uses (&/or upshots) associated with, say, strong (human+) A.I. &/or nanotech (or even, of course, micro-tech, for that matter). But surely one has the right to augment/upgrade oneself in various ways if one so chooses. But (trans)humans should ALWAYS be "in charge" of technology. No argument against that from me!!
Oh, man. Where did you get the energy to do this kind of videos? How can you prefer bad unhealthy DNA code over a better one? How can you prefer opinions of some politician about how much money we should give away as taxes over simple caclulation about what is better for good live?
If don't like our ideas, at least let us know your ideas how to make world better.
@iimuhin In answer to your questions 1) Someone had to do it. 2) I'm not into eugenics. I also don't want to become a machine. The whole idea of altering the human race to make us "better" is disturbing to me and it's unnatural. 3) I advocate a constitutional federal government which wouldn't be giving away anybody's tax money. Local and state governments could do as they please based on what the PEOPLE want, not what science dictates. If people dont like the politicians they can vote them out.
@venusprojection No problem. I can understand that you don't like the ideas of The Zeitgeist Movement. This is ok. They are not so easy to understand.
Don't you think we'll eventually get there anyhow? Especially in the free market since people are always looking for quicker ways to get things done. If they offered a chip that could make you think faster, people would buy it for sure, none can stop the force of demand in this system. Companies always find ways to bypass laws and governments if there are a lot of money to be made.
@Watchdawg I want to make a video about this as well. My view is that under our current form of government the creation of super intelligent machines could be outlawed. This is by no means a cure all solution, and other nations might well decide not to outlaw it but it would at least give people a fighting chance. In TVP all the world's systems would be interfaced through a supercomputer, which could easily be taken over by a Runaway AI. Whereas in a free market not everything is so centralized.
Only FOOLS FEAR for no reason and it is 100% clear that any AI would simply see the real duty and serve LIFE by doing what mankind can't do. it would go into space and build places for life on many worlds and never end doing it as they duplicate and spread life where ever it be possible and mankind would follow some many thousands of years behind to full pre made ready planets... just we said all long but that jaqcques fresco and his METROPOLIS in 1927 still today.
@venusprojection I don't believe that AIs would eventually decide to run away. None should play around with something they don't know anything about. How can an AI run away when it's only purpose is to calculate and prioritize things with more value in a certain area. Basically you're looking at a huge calculator.
@venusprojection The moment you did that it would cease to be the free market you claim is the solution. You can't make any product illegal in a free market. And with the profit motive doing what the profit motive always does you can see already that allowing a profit motivated market to develop any technology that interfaces with the brain is a bad idea.
@Leveer13 I disagree with your assessment. Obviously bans on weapons of mass destruction can exist within a free market. In The Venus Project however nothing can be banned and in your high tech society it's likely most people will be computer scientists/programmers thus you have no safeguards against the creation of Runaway AI.
@Watchdawg Furthermore, in TVP people would be more likely to accept being turned into robots (just due to the nature of the whole ideology and the science-centric culture) than those in a free market democratic republic where traditional values and religion would still be playing a major role in how people think about themselves and their relationship to the universe. Sure, many in a free market would still want "upgrades", but how many people want the robot brain inside them to overrule (cont)
@Watchdawg (cont) their natural processes? How many people would want to inject a nanobots into their body that's purpose would be to change the entirety of ones biological systems into machinery? I believe the case could be made that creating such technology would pose a catastrophic threat to the human race and thus it's creation COULD be prevented if enough action were taken. This would not be interfering in the free market, this would be banning a nanotech weapon of mass destruction.
@venusprojection You're talking many many years from now, it's just an idea. However, that's not the main proposal of the VP, Jacque were just saying that it was possible. Even if there was an attempt to prevent it, people would still go for it, if it was more efficient and an easy process, regardless of what the law says. Nanobots would be awesome if they could remove the cause of diseases.
@venusprojection Have u read, e.g., Drexler's books? Nanotech probably CAN'T be stopped, so the best thing to do is to develop it openly, transparently, & to have intelligent public discussion about it, & about what sorts of safeguards must be implemented. Same with robotics & A.I. See, e.g., Hans Moravec, *Robot*; see also J. Storrs Hall, *Beyond A.I.: Creating the Conscience of the Machine*. Humans' evolutionary selection filter/mechanism IS its culture-&-technology...(cont.)
Jacque Fresco goes out and says that he believes in Extensionality in his videos. Which is the advancement of human evolution through technology, but this is not what the Venus Project is about. Any time modification through means of technology to a human body is mentioned the crazies come out of the woodwork. If any of you were to do a little bit of research you'd know that Jacque says this is a possibility of the future and it is already happening. You have amputees using mechanical arms/legs
lilurik 2 weeks ago
@lilurik But as a futurist he predicts these things he doesn't say the Venus Project will do this. What the Venus Project is about is a way of providing the necessities of life to every human being free of charge through way of a self sustaining city. People will be free to explore areas of interest now that they don't have to worry about obtaining food or shelter. It would be a city governed by the scientific method. A method the states your accusations must be able to be tested and replicated.
lilurik 2 weeks ago
@lilurik Calling me names like "crazy" and implying I've done no research really really really diminishes your entire argument. I am saying that Fresco, TVP and TZM advocate the creation of such technologies that pose a tremendous danger to the existence of the human race. Nothing about TVP itself suggests that the creation of advanced artificial intelligence or mixing said technology with our human biology would not occur and promotes a way of looking at life which indeed encourages it.
venusprojection 2 weeks ago
@venusprojection I'm sorry for calling you crazy, I didn't mean it that way. I agree with you to some point. A computer system designed to control all could be dangerous. TVP does walk that fine line. But imagine a computer that doesn't control anything, it just monitors the world. It monitors the the forests, the resources, and the people, but it can't control it. It is just used to alert the people so that they may do something. Computers will be tools. -cont-
lilurik 2 weeks ago
@lilurik -cont- The integration of human an machine is going to happen eventually. I believe under our current system where corporations and money are involved it would be more detrimental than in a society where we aren't bound by money. When I think of a world that TVP is proposing I think of Star Trek. There's an episode where they rescue people frozen in space. The people are from the past and they ask how they will get money and Picard responds we've moved past that system of ownership.
lilurik 2 weeks ago
@GilKail85 by that i mean, that it is so easy for someone to plant chips that can control my mind, and then i will become a mindless drone, if i can think freely without any one controlling me with a computer chip, then i wouldnt mind evolution.
TheCaptainjuicy 3 weeks ago
@4evalovenpeace although i don't fully believe in TZM or the venus project, i dont like spirituality and wouldnt mind being posthuman cyborg as long as i keep my free will
TheCaptainjuicy 3 weeks ago
@TheCaptainjuicy
And can you explain me what is free will? What do you realy do today that makes you feel free? or makes you feel that you are making free choises?
Gilkail85 3 weeks ago
This just shows how utterly retarded the TVP supporters are. They don't do ANY research, they just take everything at face value, and follow fresco without question. Learn to think for yourself and stop being mouth monkeys and repeating what fresco and merola say.
clevelandtyler2 1 month ago in playlist Favorite videos
Oh, and may I also ad that we are spiritual beings and although our species could artificially evolve into machines, we must honestly ask ourselves if this is the path we want to choose. I like our human bodies and believe that we can change and evolve ourselves as needed by awareness of consciousness & spirituality. When all humans realize the truth about our current paradigm and their true inner power, this whole planet will transform everything that they do. I've looked forward to 2012!
4evalovenpeace 2 months ago
If I may comment @venusprojection and @Anonymousg64. I don't claim to be an expert, but I'm a very avid reader and investigator on this subject and the like. I can see both sides of your arguments clearly. It's not easy, is it? I personally don't want to see us turn into machines. From what I've learned, beings that have followed that path are now regretful in their inability to ascend or reach all dimensions, planes or levels, if you will. We must be very careful in our choices for humankind.
4evalovenpeace 2 months ago
you are using a computer right? well that is a form of merging with machines as it extends you're capabilities, using technology to enhance humans is trans-humanism. we are already at an early stage of it, its not tvp or tzm thats going to make it happen, its a natural progression.
Anonymousg64 4 months ago
whats wrong with genetic engineering or merging with technology?
Anonymousg64 4 months ago
@Anonymousg64 Well for one, notice the quote from Kurzweil at 0:39 . "Over time, the nonbiological portion will predominate". Do you really want computers to take over your body and mind and control you?
venusprojection 4 months ago
@venusprojection first you're body and mind is already a machine, second you're brain(computer) already controls you, third yes i want to enhance what already is using more advance technology.
like if there is a you to begin with, just a collage of information that generates a perspective, why not enhance the functions that generate the perspective from that database of information?
Anonymousg64 4 months ago
@Anonymousg64 I understand that is the transhumanist viewpoint. However, it is also a very controversial position. Many would argue that human beings are not computers at all. I don't consider myself to be a machine and I doubt most people would consider themselves machines. We are people, and there is a difference. By "enhancing" ourselves as you put it we would be willingly giving up ourselves completely to a computer program. What you are basically advocating is the end of the human species.
venusprojection 4 months ago
@venusprojection Well you're opinion is assumption based, ignoring the facts that the brain operates using electro-chemical reactions and it is the flow of electrons and the physical changes that processes information. Without information processing you wouldn't work at all. enhancing yourself is not eliminating yourself (it is but so is every second your brain processes information) the illusion of self remains and so does continuity of thought an memory. enhancement is expansion, not destruct
Anonymousg64 4 months ago
@Anonymousg64 many species die, thats how they evolve, the mutations of those species survive if they are more adequately equipped to survive. the more prominent type will more likely survive over time. this does not mean you will be eliminated by the more prominent species but you're weaknesses will lead to you're own elimination, more specifically you're scientific ignorance combined with the tools and technology of the more advance society, ie suicide, war, self destruction.
Anonymousg64 4 months ago
@Anonymousg64 I don't agree with your assessments at all but you are providing a good example as to why I am against your movement and The Venus Project. Under your system those on my side of this issue are considered in your own words ignorant and weak and that people who think like us should be eliminated. This is why TVP wants to condition children to accept among other things a transhumanist mindset and those who disagree will be ignored by the system until they are eliminated.
venusprojection 4 months ago
@venusprojection it does not matter if you disagree with gravity or the standard model of physics, you are still bound by its rules. im not saying you should be eliminated, im saying the ignorant will lead themselves to suicide as that is the tendency of ignorant people given tools and technology they do not understand. Im saying progression will be going so fast people like will still be stuck playing cowboy and world war.
evolution did not stop for a being that could refuse to evolve.
Anonymousg64 4 months ago
@Anonymousg64 Becoming a cyborg and letting intelligent computer programs take control over ones brain is not evolution. Evolution occurs naturally through biology. Turning into cyborgs or becoming total robots is not natural biological evolution nor is it natural at all. You people want to give up your humanity for power and immortality and would sacrifice the entire human race to reach your goals. It's pretty sick if you ask me.
venusprojection 4 months ago
@venusprojection letting a computer TAKE CONTROL over you? that view is totally flawed and would require some logical backing. evolution does not occur only through biology. evolution is not limited to carbon based life forms, silica, metal or any material can become a life form given the right configuration and environment. evolution happens with knowledge and machines, becoming cyborgs is an evolutionary leap forward. humanity is you're opinion, its definition will always vary and evolve also
Anonymousg64 4 months ago
@Anonymousg64 "letting a computer TAKE CONTROL over you? that view is totally flawed and would require some logical backing."
Again, did you not see the part in Kurzweil's book where he said that the computers that will "enhance" us as you put will become "predominant" over time? The definition of predominant is "to have or gain controlling power or influence... to dominate or prevail over." Kurzweil is one of the foremost experts on this subject.
venusprojection 4 months ago
@venusprojection predominant in the sense it will have the most influence in the self generation, it does not mean it will have control over you only that it will be the more dominant PART of you, such as you're frontal lobes are predominant over you're more primitive brain regions.
Anonymousg64 4 months ago
@venusprojection it would not sacrifice the human race, it would evolve it and enhance it, and why are you saying WE, its already happening and i think you're pretty sick to try and stop such a progressive evolution, you're traditional views are clashing with the emergence of reality, reality will win and we will continue to evolve or die(over time, not by intent).
Anonymousg64 4 months ago
ofcourse we want to merge with technology, its called transhumanism.
Anonymousg64 4 months ago
Africas poorness is a big business for many companies and countries in short sentence
Jiddufan 5 months ago
Myep and i am not ofc suggesting to move into this instantly, we need to stop reducing the issues with right ways and not feed the current one.
Jiddufan 5 months ago
I do understand hat you mean but the whole consept of money is pointless here when the resources exist but money doesnt.
Jiddufan 5 months ago
I never blamed only US :D Also franch, brits etc many countires that have given loans also IMF
Jiddufan 5 months ago
And they are also paid so poorly that they really cant pay their living for it when they have to start paying for living there aswell, and the amount of food and shit they get from these "charity" organzations is very minor compared to what they had.
Jiddufan 5 months ago
@Jiddufan Your whole argument in the thing about Africa basically comes down to that you don't feel people are helping Africa enough and that in particular the US is keeping them enslaved and it's our fault they're starving. I seriously disagree with that viewpoint. Our Gov gives them billions of dollars in foreign aid while we ourselves go bankrupt. We as individuals have donated more and given more to Africa than any other country in the world. So your viewpoint is not based in reality.
venusprojection 5 months ago
@Jiddufan I'm not saying I like the current system and I'm not saying I support the way it is right now in Africa. The US economy did help power the economy of other nations around the world for a long time and is probably the most responsible for the high quality of life found in many areas all around the world today. But America has been in a decline for the last 100 years due to flawed economic policy and the rapid growth of government which has turned us into a fascist dictatorship.
venusprojection 5 months ago
@Jiddufan The US has also waged all these illegal wars all over the globe which has done a lot of damage. So what I'm saying is the best way out of this mess is to elect Ron Paul for President of the US and end the wars, end the fed and inject new life into the economy and restore all the freedoms that has been taken away from us to act as a model for the rest of the world to emulate and prosper from.
venusprojection 5 months ago
And also many of country leaders even in the better countries are taking peoples permission from there to food for themselves and their village and family away, because the country wants to "globalize" and sell the food away from them even thou their families and relatives and farmed thous lands for many years. And obviously they dont have the money to buy the land from the goverments. So the goverment makes them to work for the goverment to get paid for "money" which they didint need.
Jiddufan 5 months ago
For Nestle itself no money is left there for the african society due to the huge profits they make there, they dont have to pay taxes etc in there. They are abusing it so much to make even more and more profit. The amount that they pay for the people who work for them in africa is ridicilously low compared to the amount of money they should be paid for.. Also alot of child labour is being used there aswell.. And ye they farm cacao there.
Jiddufan 5 months ago
And obviously we or you, whatever are not giving enough food to the african countries due to the huge amouns of people dying in there for hunger we need to stop taking the food from there in the first place. And so many companies atm pretty much own many of the stuff that is provided in africa. Let's say Nestle has many plantations over the africa and yes Nestle does gve some jobs to african people by that, but they get paid very poorly aswell. And the money that Nestle makes there goes fully
Jiddufan 5 months ago
@Jiddufan "And obviously we or you, whatever are not giving enough food to the african countries due to the huge amouns of people dying in there for hunger we need to stop taking the food from there in the first place"
Again, if we didnt buy certain things from them they wouldn't have the money needed to grow the food in the first place. What dont you understand about that? We also give them tremendous amounts of foreign aid, US citizens donate millions to private charities that help Africa and
venusprojection 5 months ago
And indeed it is, the things that you are representing are obviously better than what we have now. So i respect it alot, but we could obviously go even better.
Jiddufan 5 months ago
And i thought i already have explaned how we are pretty much enslaving africas bankruption guess you didint read it. Free Market in system of exchange which we need to get rid of in order to have a good society where we can trust eachother, as i have already explaned how the ideology of exchange is actually based on unreliability. And abut the debt clean thinggy, it would be awesome for africa if that's what you meant, but the money loss for people who are in charge of it is huge.
Jiddufan 5 months ago
@Jiddufan "Free Market in system of exchange which we need to get rid of in order to have a good society where we can trust eachother, as i have already explaned how the ideology of exchange is actually based on unreliability. And abut the debt clean thinggy, it would be awesome for africa if that's what you meant, but the money loss for people who are in charge of it is huge."
With everything that's going on in the world and all the different cultures involved...(see part 2)
venusprojection 5 months ago
@Jiddufan (part 2) .. i think it's unrealistic to suggest that we all just decide to get along and form global scientific dictatorship that will evenly distribute the necessities of life to the whole world. I know the consequences for going down that road would be catastrophic in my country and in others around the world would result in the deaths of millions and possibly billions. What we need to do right now is save the economy by reducing regulations otherwise it's going to get ugly fast.
venusprojection 5 months ago
And none thous jobs make simply no sense if people would start produce the goods in some place that makes sense instead of running them from A to B with huge distances. Their time and life could be spent on something that makes sense. It's idiotic to think only about your family when this is about all of us not about you and your family. Things need to be based on what is relevant and the resource to have a good life is the relevant, not some permission to access and that's what money is.
Jiddufan 5 months ago
Yep africa is full of corrupt goverments and we are only supporting the corrupt goverments there by using them for our own monetary good. And aye citizens there should be raising and take the control from the goverments, but then who pays back their loans is there are is no goverment? Our banks and countries in northern side of the world would loose huge monetary gains by this. They obviously dont want to loose this, i'm not saying that i'm im a conspiracy theorist, but this is a fact.
Jiddufan 5 months ago
@Jiddufan You have yet to explain to me how we use Africa for our own monetary good. I already told you how we help Africa by exporting tons of food to them. They export some items to us as well and we pay them good money. This in turn allows them to grow more of their own food as well. As for the debt well they obviously ran their country poorly with all the corruption like I said. The people need to take back their country and change their ways. I for one am for wiping the debt clean.
venusprojection 5 months ago
And how can you get rid of the ones that manipulate the system by being in the system when every1 is only feeding the ones that manipulate the system by supporting the system the way to stop all this is stop supporting the ways and values of this system. And move to a system which makes sense and has decent values like RBE represents. Ofc there are more viable alternatives, but this is the best i know. Or well the best would be total freedom for men, if we could always do the most rational act.
Jiddufan 5 months ago
@Jiddufan "Or well the best would be total freedom for men, if we could always do the most rational act."
THE BEST answer is freedom for all people but with freedom comes responsibility. If others act irresponsibly that's their decision and they can suffer the consequences of their actions to serve as an example to others what NOT to do and let the people decide. You can't force others how to run their lives in a free society.
venusprojection 5 months ago
@Jiddufan "And how can you get rid of the ones that manipulate the system by being in the system when every1 is only feeding the ones that manipulate the system by supporting the system"
The current system is not a free market due to manipulation and cronyism. Again it's all about the personal responsibility of a free society and it's our duty to replace the corrupt individuals in government so that corporations can no longer use the government to rig the system in their favor.
venusprojection 5 months ago
And we cause this ideology with our own primite behaviour that should be gotten rid of now and should never even have developed to our brains. Well ofcourse the people who are manipulating the system should be gotten rid off because they are doing nothing good. But the system we live in is based on so irrational reasons, even money is made out of a very important and resource which keeps the life in our planet and it's called wood.
Jiddufan 5 months ago
Also your thoughts about that something is threatening you all we care about is that every works together there is no point in this world to have "countries" totally pointless ideology which is only based on unreliability and fear of someone taking something away from you which you in the first place don't even own countries are only made of this primitive thought of owning some kind of territory like animals do. And then you are safe in that territory when nothing should even be threatening
Jiddufan 5 months ago
And whats the true point of all thous jobs? No point their existance is purely created out of stupid behaviour with pointlessly exporting stuff from A to B we should only do works that really matter instead of stupidly spending our resources to this kind of stuff.
Jiddufan 5 months ago
@Jiddufan The point of those jobs is so that people can provide for their families. It fuels industry and the economy which in turn gives more the chance to succeed in life.
venusprojection 5 months ago
Also that exporting food to the other side of the world also pointlessly uses resources that could be used for real needs when they shouldnt take it away from there in the first place. I know nothing about america exporting tons of food to africa, but it's crearly not fixing any issues.
Jiddufan 5 months ago
@Jiddufan Africa is a big place filled with corrupt governments. It's up to the citizens of those countries to do what's in their best interest. It's not the US Governments job description for us to be telling other countries what to do. My solution is for the American people to take the US Government back and so I support Ron Paul for president to use his power to end the wars and stop much suffering in the world. We should not hand power of the whole world over to a global dictatorship
venusprojection 5 months ago
@Jiddufan We need to end the cronism at all levels of government. The big banks and corporations never should have got bailed out in the first place and I support a full investigation and for those responsible for knowing manipulating the system put to justice. If we can do that in America and turn the economy around then people all over the world can follow our example if they decide to do so. I fear the alternative will be a global collapse followed by a corrupt global dictatorship.
venusprojection 5 months ago
But hey if you're in Africa and you wanna convince everybody there to go to a resource based economy and other countries decide to join in then that's their decision I cant tell them how to live. But nobody from those countries can run our government or tell me how to live my life either and many people in my country will do everything they can do stop the implementation of an RBE in the US and protect the constitution from enemies foreign and domestic.
venusprojection 5 months ago
@Jiddufan "Also that exporting food to the other side of the world also pointlessly uses resources that could be used for real needs when they shouldnt take it away from there in the first place."
Actually exporting it creates jobs in many different sectors that fuels the economy which in turn creates more jobs and more prosperity. Because it's exported truckers, boaters, gas stations, shipping companies, software companies you name it all benefit. That creates more jobs for more people.
venusprojection 5 months ago
So practically because of our system we take food from africa, that we could easilly raise by our selves.
Jiddufan 5 months ago
Giving food etc to poor countires like whole africa is very pointless when we (our system) actually takes it from them in the first place. Every nation in africa produces enough food to feed the whole country, but our system takes it away from them in the first place. The countries sell their food in order to pay back their loans to our northern / western banks which the dictators have taken in the first place without asking from the people of the country.
Jiddufan 5 months ago
@Jiddufan ".. our system takes it away from them in the first place. The countries sell their food in order to pay back their loans to our northern / western banks which the dictators have taken in the first place without asking from the people of the country."
Actually the US exports tons of food to Africa for extremely cheap. It's so in-expensive for Africa that it's actually cheaper than growing their own food locally. They also export some things to us, which gives them even more money.
venusprojection 5 months ago
@Jiddufan You are right that the system in Africa has a lot of problems and the US certainly has a lot of problems right now. We do not live in a true free market. It has been the result of people trying to control the government and change the rules in an effort to control the market and also control over us as free individuals. If you want someone to run everything all over the world and completely take over every aspect of all our lives then I am against that.
venusprojection 5 months ago
Uhm the system US and most of the world has makes the reason to charity, first you practically have bankrupted most of the world and then you give a little back when you practically take almost everything.
Jiddufan 5 months ago
@Jiddufan Uh... no. There has always been poverty in the world. It is the free market capitalism that has done more to alleviate poverty and raise our quality of life more than any other system in history. It is also not JUST the free market that is needed but also individual freedom and a moral society. In many places all over the world they have dictatorships, socialism and communism and those can definitely be attributed to the state of the world today and not capitalism or individual freedom
venusprojection 5 months ago
And you shouldnt praise one nation because the issues are not in one nation its in the world
Jiddufan 5 months ago
@Jiddufan I was actually making a point that the REASON the USA is the most charitable nation in the world is because of our compassion and wealth. We have a free market system that has enabled us to become prosperous, and yet we still give what we can and do what we can for those in need. Of course we would like to see other countries unleash the power of the free market and individual liberty and I do believe that would go a long way toward ending poverty but it can't be forced on anybody.
venusprojection 5 months ago
Charity really has no proper value in helping the issue that causes the need for "charity" should be removed and the reason is our marketing system of exchange and shit people being greedy and others left out. Giving food to africa is like giving a homeless person a home for 2 days and then kicking him out
Jiddufan 5 months ago
okay then, just to point out one thing, you got very defensive about someone saying "you watch too much TV" or something, when you just showed a clip of a Terminator movie, its obvious you are construing theories about the project to slander it entirely, please stop wasting everyone's time with ignorant allegations. to me you seem to be on someone's payroll wanting to discredit the entire thing because CHANGE is not acceptable for the people holding the strings currently. Viva Le REVOLUTION!
macgw86 5 months ago
@macgw86 The terminator foot at the end is meant to be a joke. The sources cited in the video of Ray Kurzweil and Vernor Vinge are enough to back up my argument. "You watch too many movies" is the standard brainwashed response by people who don't know anything and just mindlessly recite what they've been spoon fed. Like Neil in this video, they know nothing about the subject they are talking about. I'm all for change. Just not the kind of change you people believe you want.
venusprojection 5 months ago
And also problems are not fixed by a law, we need to fix the issue that causes the problem itself.
Jiddufan 5 months ago
Why cant people just give others what they need? Because he doesn't trust that when you give some1 something you are afraid of that you might not get something from him. So you trade with him to ensure that you get something from him when you give something to him. Giving and sharing should be axiomatic for all of us. That's how a society would be good and social because then we can all trust each other and a have good mentality in this world.. Competing destroys our thought about others.
Jiddufan 5 months ago
@Jiddufan "Why cant people just give others what they need?"
You know that Americans are the most giving and charitable nation of people in the history of mankind right?
"And also problems are not fixed by a law, we need to fix the issue that causes the problem itself."
Yes but they are important to set guidelines so that innocent people are protected and as a deterrent. It is up to individuals to make the right choices in life. The family unit is very important in that process.
venusprojection 5 months ago
Why cant people just give others what they need? Because he doesn't trust that when you give some1 something you are afraid of that you might not get something from him. So you trade with him to ensure that you get something from him when you give something to him. Giving and sharing should be axiomatic for all of us. That's how a society would be good and social because then we can all trust eachother and a have good mentality in this world.. Competing destroys our thought about others.
Jiddufan 5 months ago
And corruption can also be possible there some1 will most likely find a way to fraud people... I hope you know that how money was actually firstly created by gold and silver, which also are resources that can be used for real needs not for some ideology of trade. Why do you think that people trade?
Jiddufan 5 months ago
Yap that sounds good in a way, and i neither dont really think that something watching over things constantly is a good idea, but it seems to be necessary. People can only be free when we all know whats the best act and idea about everything in this world for you and me to everyone that's when freedom is possible. Me my self i hate the ideology of trade, it is mostly based on unreliability and lack of trust between us. There shouldn't be trade, because by trading people can also get power
Jiddufan 5 months ago
Well if you ask from me the world is a wasteland already when you think about all the plastic barriers flowing in our oceans etc etc.
Jiddufan 5 months ago
And you still didint say anything about the economical issues that come with then economy is raising in certain countires.. The waste they prodice gets much much worse same with enviromental issues that cars produce etc etc there are so many examples.. Well okay you dont think that the capitalistic marketing system is fine, but you still say that recourse based economy is bad. Do you have any viable options then to solve these things? Money has no proper connection to resources thats the problem
Jiddufan 5 months ago
@Jiddufan I don't think you need a centralized economy or governing power to solve environmental issues. It should be left to individuals on their own free will. For instance if a company can create a car that runs well on alternative energy and can make it affordable so that it makes sense to purchase it, then consumers will buy that car. Same with any number of other products. Private property rights can be used to prevent careless waste dumping by corporations when they can be held liable.
venusprojection 5 months ago
@Jiddufan My solution is to let the market run it's course without interference from the federal government. Eliminating chronie capitalism and corporatism where the government unfairly rigs the market to choose the winners and losers is necessary. What is need is a free society and a free market, but one that is protected from fraud through enforcement of the rule of law through a democratic republic form of government that is accountable to the people.
venusprojection 5 months ago
@Jiddufan Oh and also a return to sound money like a gold and silver backed currency or even to let the market decide which currencies should be used by allowing competing currencies. This way if gold becomes too scarce and people need money then something else could be decided by the people to act as money. However printing money out of thin air should not be allowed as it is counterfeit and central banks have proved time and time again to be detrimental to society.
venusprojection 5 months ago
But are they doing anything about the water issues that they are being warned for? No they do something about it when its already too late. Like everything in here. Well obviously i cant be sure about it so my argument is useless. But its a viable possiblity which has been happening alot in our world. And obviously economy raising is fine in a way, but when china is raising it also means that many other countries are going down.
Jiddufan 5 months ago
Economical rising in this world only means more Ecolical issues and poinltess consumptioning.. Do you have any idea of how big issues economically there are in china already?? They are even running out of water soon which they are pumping from the depths of the earth already.. In few years if everything goes like this in there the whole land there will be dry and useless! Also it has caused alot of food farming ground to go off because of building huge amounts of houses which are 70% empty aswel
Jiddufan 5 months ago
@Jiddufan If the economy grows that means more people can provide for themselves, their families and give their children a chance to be successful in life. Why would I not be in favor of that? I'm not singing the praises of the Chinese government and how they do things over there. Building houses that remain vacant because nobody can afford to live in them just for the sake of employing people is NOT free market capitalism and I never said I supported that.
venusprojection 5 months ago
@Jiddufan "They are even running out of water soon which they are pumping from the depths of the earth already.. In few years if everything goes like this in there the whole land there will be dry and useless!"
That is debatable. Environmentalists have been making inaccurate predictions about resource depletion for years. Fresco himself said in the 70s that in 20 years the world would be a wasteland. There are also ways of manufacturing water by absorbing humidity in the air and other ways.
venusprojection 5 months ago
@Jiddufan "They are even running out of water soon which they are pumping from the depths of the earth already.. In few years if everything goes like this in there the whole land there will be dry and useless!"
That is debatable. Environmentalists have been making inaccurate predictions about resource depletion for years. Fresco himself said in the 70s that in 20 years the world would be a wasteland. There are also ways of manufacturing water by absorbing humidity in the air and other ways.
venusprojection 5 months ago
Yes i know that stuff and i am not simply believing in propaganda and you neither cant say that you have done research unless you have gone to there by urself. or ofc you can but its not based on anything. And i have also watched alot of documents about chinese factory workers etc, they also make insane amounts working hours and their conditions in the places they work are also told to be mostly bad as (When it comes to health) And you tihnk that Economy raising in china is Good??
Jiddufan 5 months ago
Um what is actually the bad thing represented in this? I wouldnt mind being a half human half machine if it meant that i could live for thousands for years :) And i simply dont understand why would people want to die.
Jiddufan 5 months ago
Transhumanism is some really scary shit. And zeitgeist movement/venus project followers are indoctrinated, thats why you can't reason with them. Thanks for the video.
GalaktikNinjA 5 months ago
@skukfas I never said poor people depend on charity. I said that I believe in being charitable towards poor people. I also said that companies looking to widen their profit margins often go to poor countries and open shop which helps the economy of poor countries and over time raises their standard of living and quality of life. Many people are poor and suffering in countries with corrupt leadership and those are problems but rbe is not the solution.
venusprojection 6 months ago
@venusprojection "The free market system and honest money give people the ability to take care of
themselves."
No. U R dependent & limited by the money U have. People living on minimum wage can't afford going to the hospital when they want. & it's obvious we can't all be rich.
& if U happen to born in an enviro. where U can't have proper education, U'll have a very hard time to find a job or even survive.
But even if U have proper education, if U R old or disable U can't take care of yourself.
skukfas 6 months ago
@skukfas "No. U R dependent & limited by the money U have."
No. You are dependent on yourself and using your abilities to achieve as much as you can in life. As far as people in poor countries where they can barely get enough food and water to survive let alone receive an education, well, I believe in being charitable as well. But those countries have their own problems usually stemming from corrupt government. Also, companies love moving in to poor countries and giving people jobs.
venusprojection 6 months ago
@venusprojection Congrats. If you really believe in that then I give up. Long live the current system.
skukfas 6 months ago
@venusprojection Giving people jobs????????????? They are simply slaving people and giving them just the money to keep them selves barely to survive problems in "OTHER" countries are also our problems there noone is alone in this world.
Jiddufan 5 months ago
@Jiddufan If you actually do some research you'll find that chinese factory workers who make 50 cents an hour are basically middle class and can afford to live in houses and provide for their families. 50 cents in china goes much farther than 50 cents in America. They aren't slaves barely able to survive... like I said they are basically middle class. Stop blindly believing propaganda. Their wages have also steadily risen over time as have their living conditions as the economy grows further
venusprojection 5 months ago
@venusprojection "Scarcity and danger from others are both realities we must face to survive."
Yes. And it's an embarassment given the level of todays tech.
skukfas 6 months ago
@venusprojection "I disagree with the idea that scarcity is the cause of corrupt behavior."
Yes. Scarcity is not the direct cause of corruption. But the need to profit is.
Whether it is to just pay the bills and survive, or to move up in the social ladder.
In a RBE nobody would have the need to profit; everyone would be equal (but with different knowledge and interests) so I think it's safe to say we wouldn't have corruption.
skukfas 6 months ago
@venusprojection "There is no proof that free will doesn't exist. Yes, the environment does have an impact
on behavior but we have the ability to reason and to choose what we do
at any given moment and that is free will."
I'm not sure how to show you that free will doesn't exist and the other topics are much more important
so I won't reply to this one.. for now :P
skukfas 6 months ago
more @ ?v=emW1TQ290ec
skukfas 6 months ago
@venusprojection I was scared like you at first but it's true m8. There is no free will. All your actions are consequences of the input you get from the environment. If you get no input, you don't do anything, you don't exist. And currently machines already build machines (3d printers) and A.I. is evolving a lot. It's a natural consequence of technological evolution. So we either go through that evolution in a profit-driven system, Or by one driven by Humans' well being. Make your choice.
skukfas 6 months ago
@skukfas "There is no free will."
That is what Fresco said when I talked to him. I along with many many others obviously disagree with the notion that free will does not exist.
"we either go through that evolution in a profit-driven system, Or by one driven by Humans' well being. Make your choice."
I propose banning the creation of strong a.i. and other similarly dangerous technology as they could pose a considerable danger to the human race. High-tech defense systems should also be created
venusprojection 6 months ago
@venusprojection I'm pretty sure it's proven scientifically that free will doesn't exist. People only have predispositions on how to react and behave upon some external stimuli, so it's not a matter of disagree or not, it's a scientific fact, just like gravity.
And using "dangerous" to classify technology implies a subjective analysis. It's classified as dangerous by who and to who it is dangerous to?
Also, all kind of technology is dangerous at some degree. Knifes, Weapons, Airplanes.
skukfas 6 months ago
@skukfas "I'm pretty sure it's proven scientifically that free will doesn't exist. People only have predispositions on how to react and behave upon some external stimuli, so it's not a matter of disagree or not, it's a scientific fact"
There is no proof that free will doesn't exist. Yes, the environment does have an impact on behavior but we have the ability to reason and to choose what we do at any given moment and that is free will.
venusprojection 6 months ago
@venusprojection And what you call a "high-tech defense system"? To defend against what? Technology, other fellow humans or something else?
Also are you only against that "strong A.I." or against an RBE with no monetary system too?
skukfas 6 months ago
@skukfas High tech defense is needed to defend against technology and of course any other kind of attack. Yes, I am not only against strong ai I am against an RBE / no monetary system as well.
venusprojection 6 months ago
@venusprojection I see. So could U tell me why U are against an RBE/no money system? Where do U think it fails (beside the point where it evolves that "strong AI") ? Do you reckon inequality is a problem?
I'm assuming you already understand a monetary system only provides inequality, since it's obvious the value of something it's proportional to it's scarcity. i.e: If I'm the only one selling oil, I can put whatever price I want.
So if we want to fix this on every field, what do U suggest?
skukfas 6 months ago
@skukfas I am against RBE for a lot of reasons really. I will be making more videos on those subjects in the future. I disagree with the idea that scarcity is the cause of corrupt behavior. Scarcity and danger from others are both realities we must face to survive. The free market system and honest money give people the ability to take care of themselves but in an rbe everyone is dependent on a system run by "interdisciplinary teams of "experts" not even elected by their constituents.
venusprojection 6 months ago
@skukfas So where the RBE really fails though is that it's impossible to implement in the way Fresco presents it. When I asked him about it, he said that in order for it to work the scientists and engineers and experts would all have to come talk to him and Roxanne to have a clear understanding of the venus project first. I'm sorry, but that's just a ridiculous concept. Now, if we did move into a system sorta like the venus project I wouldn't trust those put in charge of running the system.
venusprojection 6 months ago
@skukfas The idea that during a worldwide economic collapse and amidst all the chaos and famine and violence and widespread panic the whole world would decide to put all their differences aside and agree to share all their stuff and the world together and have a bunch of scientists and machines provide for them is just ridiculous on the face of it. Even if the rbe was created, at the time of it's creation scarcity would still exist therefore corruption as well so the rbe would still be corrupt
venusprojection 6 months ago
I found this video unintelligible . What was the main argument ? if it's about becoming 'cyborgs' I would propose that we already are cyborgs, given the computers, contact lenses and running shoes we use.
NetworkHuman 6 months ago
@NetworkHuman You have to have some background to understand the video as it's part of a series. I stated that Jacque Fresco started The Venus Project and wrote a book about his proposed society. In this book it details how machines will make most decisions for us automatically on our behalf with the ultimate goal of resource allocation efficiency. He also advocates the transhumanist viewpoint I think you share. Kurzweil shares the same ideas and is recommended reading by Jacque Fresco.
venusprojection 6 months ago
@NetworkHuman After I made those claims I was attacked by TVP/TZM members and told I was making things up. I had a chat room conversation with many of them and Neil, a guy who never was the official spokesman for the venus project but claimed to be and had to stop calling himself that because Jacque asked him to stop for legal reasons, and in this video I used some of that with evidence to back up the fact that TVP/TZM are a transhumanist movement and there is much misinfo on the web about them
venusprojection 6 months ago
Sorry I am not turning myself to a high tech toaster, I d rather die as a meat bag that live in a Marxistic world full of immortal toasters. May you all die from email worms XDD
globalzombietion 6 months ago
What is the point of existence if your only going to be programmed or wiped out by a machine AI, what would the AI do without humans? It would simply have no purpose to exist and shut itself down. Humans at some point would have no point to existing either, nothing to do no reason to interact simply exist for existing sake.
I don't see how a non currency system can ever work, how do we trade or acquire things? Were does the possibility of free will and choice ever happen in a society like that.
KieranD212 7 months ago
@KieranD212 Great post. I recently called Roxanne Meadows on the phone and was able to speak to both her and Jacque Fresco. I asked them many questions and when it came to the question of free will I was told by Jacque Fresco that he believes there IS NO FREE WILL. He told me that he believes ideas like free will are wrong and that humans only do things based upon their environment and experiences. This is why he has no problem with machines telling humans what to do and controlling society.
venusprojection 7 months ago
@venusprojection I love how you say that this is backed by science/not science fiction, yet at one point you use a clip from one of the Terminator movies as a scare tactic. The fact is, machines can only go so far as they are programmed. Sure, they can be programmed to improve themselves, but what they will do with that intelligence is still a matter of how it is programmed. They will never feel anything or think on their own. It's still a fucking toaster, a jumble of wires, a tool.
Nathan173AB 6 months ago
@Nathan173AB "... at one point you use a clip from one of the Terminator movies as a scare tactic."
No that was pretty much just thrown in there for fun and wasn't the focus of any point made.
"The fact is, machines can only go so far as they are programmed. Sure, they can be programmed to improve themselves, but what they will do with that intelligence is still a matter of how it is programmed. "
You're talking about current technology. I'm talking about future technology.
venusprojection 6 months ago
@venusprojection Future technology will still keep the same underlying principle. AI won't get out of control and take us in a bad direction because it can't. It will always be limited by how we program it. It can't just suddenly decide "Hey I'm conscious now I'm gonna enslave humanity." That is sensationalist crap. It only poses a danger if it gets into the wrong hands. Now that you mention it, in the fail market crapitalist cluster-fuck system you advocate, that danger has even more potential.
Nathan173AB 6 months ago
@venusprojection If you get right down to it, the human is also a tool. It is just a body that we control to roam the Earth with. Long ago, we used a tool called a neanderthal to roam the Earth. It became obsolete/extinct and made room for the superior human. The same will eventually happen to the human. It will be overshadowed by something else. Whether technology or natural selection accomplishes it, it's GOING TO HAPPEN. So stop identifying yourself with your biological form and get over it.
Nathan173AB 6 months ago
@Nathan173AB "it's GOING TO HAPPEN. So stop identifying yourself with your biological form and get over it."
Biological evolution will continue. Merging with machines or performing genetic modifications on ourselves or growing human being in test tubes is not evolution. Those are agendas supported by a certain segment of the population and is promoted with a lot of propaganda.
venusprojection 6 months ago
@venusprojection How is modifying our genetics NOT evolution? Who are you to say that that is not natural? Evolution is simply life adapting to its environment. Whether it happens by natural selection or technology, it's all the same. The only problem I foresee is merging with machines may make us too dependent on them, but gene modification would make that pointless anyways. I don't know where you get idea of there being a propaganda campaign about it going on. You need to elaborate on that.
Nathan173AB 6 months ago
@KieranD212 I'm not interested in changing your mind. You won't be able to control your technology once it becomes too advanced. Then it becomes a problem for those against this so called "evolution". Everyone won't want or agree to be assimilated by the singularity. I consider natural biological evolution perfectly normal and fine. Using technology to grow people in capsules or merge together in a nanotech blob is quite obviously not the same thing as natural biological evolution over time.
venusprojection 6 months ago
This video lacks one thing; the Benny Hill theme. Would go well with the poster's "logic".
somebungholio 7 months ago
he's ignorant.... and disgustingly arrogant. i'm amazed he doesn't get punched in the face every day of his life.
TungstenOrWolfram 7 months ago
I think you are confusing personal choice with force or coercion. If certain people in an RBE don't want to undergo transhumanism, they don't have to. No one will force you to change your DNA to prevent cancer, or give you a more powerful brain.
Its called a singularity because no one can predict what will happen. Whether you like it or not people will merge with machines. I would much rather that happen in a peaceful and free society void of power structures, than in the societies of today.
IHighLikePlane 7 months ago
Taking a step back, regardless of which direction humanity takes, its not looking good. The powers that be are calling to order - One world government, one world central banking, a new era of currency via implanted chips and complete identity control electronically. If the majority become convinced that this is for our own good, then humanity is lost.. Longterm, if we truly wish to continue our existence in one form or another Post-Earth, then we need a new level of collaboration. A new system.
kajinsou 9 months ago
alot of what you've used as evidence against Fresco and the V.P. acctually sounds pretty reasonable to me, depending on your perspective. I have to say it looks to me like you are trying to deal with the panic this inspires in your mind b/c you don't yet understand.You say prosthetics are o.k., well, that's artificial..the advancements we make-cybernetics, etc..all artificial, unless you see it as a human creation, then why is it not natural? Why does prosthesis of any extreme mean inhumanity?
JennJenification 10 months ago
@JennJenification Because at it says at 00:39 the machines will dominate us. This happens when you merge man with machine intelligence. Say you want to "upgrade" your thinking capability by adding a technological modification to your brain. When the machine part of your brain outperforms the human part of your brain, that is when the machine becomes the predominant part of your brain, and thus has controlling or influencing power over you. Prosthetic arms do not pose the same dangers.
venusprojection 10 months ago
@venusprojection If research proves that it would be dangerous or harmful to Life to use a computer to assist a Living creature then it would certainly be abandoned. Much of what Jacques Fresco states in his book is a hypothesis of the future, not necessarily fact. Clearly Jacques Fresco has some far out ideas however he strongly supports research based conclusions. I'll say that again, If a computer proved to be dangerous or harmful to any living thing, then it would be abandoned.
AnnumBcav 8 months ago
@AnnumBcav I agree that it SHOULD be abandoned. However, I can also see how, based on their ideology they don't see it as dangerous or harmful. It's their perspective. They see it as evolving or enhancing themselves through integrating with technology. The problem is that once technology reaches a certain point the singularity will happen and then people being integrated with machines is extremely dangerous to those who are against the transhumanist agenda which would be a minority in tvp.
venusprojection 8 months ago
@venusprojection My friend, I say this gently, How can you "see" through another persons eyes? I agree that you can make an informed decision. But, here's where it gets tricky, when your information, your foundation for your argument is based upon what you are guessing what another persons perspective is, it leaves your case with a hole in it. I do not "know" what Jacques perspective on this is, as you do not "know."
AnnumBcav 8 months ago
@venusprojection The singularity that you speak of, I know nothing about. I find it difficult to imagine that a computer could or would have such a thing as "motivation." Where does that come from?
AnnumBcav 8 months ago
@AnnumBcav Once nanotechnology is developed it will then be possible to reverse engineer the human brain and then with that data create a super powerful ai that works just like a human brain. It would also be capable then of improving itself exponentially. This information comes from scientists/inventors such as Ray Kurzweil, Vernor Vinge and others.
venusprojection 8 months ago
@AnnumBcav Oh yea if you're interested check out my upcoming videos which will go over some of the material found in Kurzweil's book "The Singularity is Near" which is on the recommended reading list at the venus project website. In the video I will explain strong ai, runaway ai, the singularity etc and use excerpts from the book so you can read it in his own words.
venusprojection 8 months ago
@venusprojection I admire your determination. I will subscribe to your channel, and remain open to this. Because I am interested in hearing what you have to say on this subject. I'll say that I believe you are skilled at what you are doing. My advice to you would be to learn how to become a professional communicator. There are many teachers out there. Look up Marshall Rosenberg, perhaps he has something you can use. If we are to change this world, we must become ready.
AnnumBcav 8 months ago
@AnnumBcav Thanks for subscribing and for the great advice as well!
venusprojection 8 months ago
@AnnumBcav The consequences after that are unimaginable. Which is why I support the banning of the development of strong ai or using nanotechnology for the develiopment of a.i. in the USA.
venusprojection 8 months ago
also arent there already people with computer parts like mechanical arms hearts etc.
again no zgm
but dam this is one piece of propaganda
cooks1234 10 months ago
@cooks1234 Having a prosthetic arm or a pace maker is not the same as having a computer chip implanted into your brain to "enhance" your intelligence or injecting nanobots into your blood stream to re-write your genetic code and replace your entire body and mind with intelligent machinery. Can you understand the difference?
venusprojection 10 months ago
dude why do you keep interrupting the man thats not a debate
nice propaganda works
no zgm
cooks1234 10 months ago
@cooks1234 We were both speaking over each other and also other people were trying to speak over me as well I was simply pressing the issue because he kept trying to side-step questions.
venusprojection 10 months ago
Once you're living in the Circle City and the computers are making your decisions for you, he won't be able to ban you because it's a society based on peace and love where everybody agrees to give up their money and property to live in harmony with the re-animated corpse of Jacque Fresco. So don't worry! : )
MillionthUsername 11 months ago 2
@MillionthUsername I like the re-animated bit, funny as hell! But tell me, who is making the decisions for you now? What decisions are they making and how will that effect YOU along with 98% of your fellow human beings? Excluding the 2% or less that are making these decisions, for there agenda. Where is peak oil leading to? How is the economic state RIGHT NOW!? I think your missing the point. We need to change, the details just need to be worked out. NWO or RBE? I vote RBE
kajinsou 9 months ago
I must admit to being a bit perplexed. As a (classical, more-or-less) liberal (trans)humanist, I concur with u that we need to carefully safeguard against malign/malevolent uses (&/or upshots) associated with, say, strong (human+) A.I. &/or nanotech (or even, of course, micro-tech, for that matter). But surely one has the right to augment/upgrade oneself in various ways if one so chooses. But (trans)humans should ALWAYS be "in charge" of technology. No argument against that from me!!
MCP2012 11 months ago
Oh, man. Where did you get the energy to do this kind of videos? How can you prefer bad unhealthy DNA code over a better one? How can you prefer opinions of some politician about how much money we should give away as taxes over simple caclulation about what is better for good live?
If don't like our ideas, at least let us know your ideas how to make world better.
iimuhin 11 months ago
@iimuhin In answer to your questions 1) Someone had to do it. 2) I'm not into eugenics. I also don't want to become a machine. The whole idea of altering the human race to make us "better" is disturbing to me and it's unnatural. 3) I advocate a constitutional federal government which wouldn't be giving away anybody's tax money. Local and state governments could do as they please based on what the PEOPLE want, not what science dictates. If people dont like the politicians they can vote them out.
venusprojection 11 months ago
@venusprojection No problem. I can understand that you don't like the ideas of The Zeitgeist Movement. This is ok. They are not so easy to understand.
iimuhin 11 months ago
good video.....!!
infokriegerBerlin 11 months ago
n besides in the resource based economy you could choose not to integrate with technology
ChiefWolfmoon 11 months ago
or you could see that human beings could become the masters of evolution.
ChiefWolfmoon 11 months ago
Don't you think we'll eventually get there anyhow? Especially in the free market since people are always looking for quicker ways to get things done. If they offered a chip that could make you think faster, people would buy it for sure, none can stop the force of demand in this system. Companies always find ways to bypass laws and governments if there are a lot of money to be made.
Watchdawg 11 months ago
@Watchdawg I want to make a video about this as well. My view is that under our current form of government the creation of super intelligent machines could be outlawed. This is by no means a cure all solution, and other nations might well decide not to outlaw it but it would at least give people a fighting chance. In TVP all the world's systems would be interfaced through a supercomputer, which could easily be taken over by a Runaway AI. Whereas in a free market not everything is so centralized.
venusprojection 11 months ago
@venusprojection
Only FOOLS FEAR for no reason and it is 100% clear that any AI would simply see the real duty and serve LIFE by doing what mankind can't do. it would go into space and build places for life on many worlds and never end doing it as they duplicate and spread life where ever it be possible and mankind would follow some many thousands of years behind to full pre made ready planets... just we said all long but that jaqcques fresco and his METROPOLIS in 1927 still today.
Peterwhitlock 11 months ago
@venusprojection I don't believe that AIs would eventually decide to run away. None should play around with something they don't know anything about. How can an AI run away when it's only purpose is to calculate and prioritize things with more value in a certain area. Basically you're looking at a huge calculator.
Watchdawg 11 months ago
@venusprojection The moment you did that it would cease to be the free market you claim is the solution. You can't make any product illegal in a free market. And with the profit motive doing what the profit motive always does you can see already that allowing a profit motivated market to develop any technology that interfaces with the brain is a bad idea.
Leveer13 11 months ago
@Leveer13 I disagree with your assessment. Obviously bans on weapons of mass destruction can exist within a free market. In The Venus Project however nothing can be banned and in your high tech society it's likely most people will be computer scientists/programmers thus you have no safeguards against the creation of Runaway AI.
venusprojection 11 months ago
@Watchdawg Furthermore, in TVP people would be more likely to accept being turned into robots (just due to the nature of the whole ideology and the science-centric culture) than those in a free market democratic republic where traditional values and religion would still be playing a major role in how people think about themselves and their relationship to the universe. Sure, many in a free market would still want "upgrades", but how many people want the robot brain inside them to overrule (cont)
venusprojection 11 months ago
@Watchdawg (cont) their natural processes? How many people would want to inject a nanobots into their body that's purpose would be to change the entirety of ones biological systems into machinery? I believe the case could be made that creating such technology would pose a catastrophic threat to the human race and thus it's creation COULD be prevented if enough action were taken. This would not be interfering in the free market, this would be banning a nanotech weapon of mass destruction.
venusprojection 11 months ago
@venusprojection You're talking many many years from now, it's just an idea. However, that's not the main proposal of the VP, Jacque were just saying that it was possible. Even if there was an attempt to prevent it, people would still go for it, if it was more efficient and an easy process, regardless of what the law says. Nanobots would be awesome if they could remove the cause of diseases.
Watchdawg 11 months ago
@venusprojection Have u read, e.g., Drexler's books? Nanotech probably CAN'T be stopped, so the best thing to do is to develop it openly, transparently, & to have intelligent public discussion about it, & about what sorts of safeguards must be implemented. Same with robotics & A.I. See, e.g., Hans Moravec, *Robot*; see also J. Storrs Hall, *Beyond A.I.: Creating the Conscience of the Machine*. Humans' evolutionary selection filter/mechanism IS its culture-&-technology...(cont.)
MCP2012 11 months ago