[ARCHIVES] HARLAN ELLISON, J. MICHAEL STRACZYNKSKI INTERVIEW

[MultiSmartass1]

Science Fiction as practiced in most movies and tv shows is little science and mostly broad fiction mixed with laser rifle weapons, spaceships, armies and wars. STAR TREK is actually Space Drama-not pure Science Fiction. STAR WARS is Space Opera. Science Fiction as such exists in novels and short stories. What you get on movie and tv screens is an amalgamation of senationalist elements that have nothing to with science fiction as it really is.

[ArtAgent13]

Harlan does have a legitimate gripe. I too feel that the waters of science fiction have been muddied by people who have no idea what real science fiction is. To me a good science fiction story should be based on a scientific principle and the characters in the tale should be intertwined in unusual ways with that principle. The tale should make the reader sit back and think about that principle. Let real science fiction open your mind.

[hanshotfirst1138]

I find Ellison intriguing. I strongly admire his passion and intellectualism, but I must admit I disagree with him on a LOT of things and find his abrasiveness difficult. But he's obviously never, ever caved on what he believed or compromised who he is, and I do admire that.

[AKImeru]

Can't we just get along?

I feel both types of books are read by different people - Some even by the same people. They are different. Sometimes, I want to read about the human condition. Other times, Dinocroc in Mars will do for the evening.

[meandmyvw]

From Science fiction, to Sci-Fi, to SyFy you can watch the decline and departure. Human stories, or stories about the human condition have been replaced with dinocrocs and super gators.

[neonknights]

Yvonne looks so much younger than Herb. Is she his first wife? I know Herb has three daughters, who were already alive when the original Star Trek was made.

[stilanas]

This guy sounds like a dick.

[jhohcable]

Holy god, I actually remember seeing this on TV. Just out of nowhere I saw this.

[johnnysbubbletop63]

Harlan's still pissed at Cameron!

[g2kmaster]

When will part 2 be posted?

[Nothingisasitseems]

It's the argument between "hard" and "soft" science fiction as well isn't it?

[Psydecar]

@Nothingisasitseems Not really. Ellison wasn't a "hard sf" writer himself. It's more about writing science fiction with respectable literary merit that should hold true to works of any genre. Much of the more literary science fiction isn't "hard" (and in fact a lot of hard science fiction suffers from good ideas, but poor writing and weak characters. Though their defenders will tell you that the science is the only thing that should matter, which I disagree with).

[Psydecar]

@Psydecar I like my entertainment like Star Trek and Battlestar Galactica (though I don't think I'd ever read the tie-in books), and I'll even take it over the dryer hard science fiction out there, but with the attention the stuff gets, the public perception of SF is that of pure entertainment with no serious literary merit which tends to annoy a lot of writers in the field.

[KeeperOfProphecies]

How far Syfy has fallen.

[chernobylFarms]

Ellison complains, "It (sci-fi) keeps people stupid."

He's right. It's designed to corral those among us who haven't bought into the whole Sports universe, with its statistics and brackets and bragging.

[Crazydog7]

Oh the good old days when the Science Fiction channel showed Science Fiction.

[cdreid9999]

The term Scifi has been around since long before Ellison (A god of scifi) was born. Fans have been using the term since the days of pulp scifi magazines. That a bunch of people feel the need to redefine it and make up some bullshit debate is irrelevant.

[Diakron79]

@cdreid9999 So...does this mean you disagree with Ellison's argument on the term?

[kstrat]

@cdreid9999: I can see your point but as far as the term"Sci-Fi" goes Forrest ackerman coined the phrase in the early 1950's. Therefor it doesn't predate Harlan's existence. LOL! While Ackerman may have used the phrase personally years earlier I don't think it was was used in popular culture until late 50's.

[hcvang]

god i love that man..

[KentAllard]

a bad pun from a bad punster and we both know who he was

what and who is Ellison talking about?

[Elric33239]

@KentAllard The Late Forrest Ackerman was credited for coining the phrase "scifi."

[KentAllard]

@Elric33239

yes but is that who he refers to? it sounds like it intended for something else

[Elric33239]

@KentAllard Since "scifi" was the topic of discussion and Harlan had a love/hate relationship with Forry for decades, I think that's a safe bet.

[cloudburstlenepmhq]

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[themredweirdoshow]

During the late '80s, on the radio station KPFK (Pacifia Broadcasting) Ellison took over hosting fantasy writing-related Hour 25, after it's original host Mike Hodel died. After Ellison left the show, Straczynski then took over for awhile.

All of which makes me wonder what both Ellsion and Straczynski thought of the fact that Hodel's brother, a former detective, years later revealed that his doctor father was actually the Black Dahlia killer!

[MultiSmartass1]

Science Fiction is a literary form which is supposed to combined a scienftic mindset and rationale in a fictional construct. SF is like any other fiction-no different from so called literary fiction.

Scifi is a non-literary form that encompasses such things as Space Opera (Star Wars) and Space Drama (Star Trek) that is found in tv and film.

Scifi has been used as an all purpose euphamism which is demeaning and insulting.

[SpreadingtheMuse]

This show didnt last nearly long enough

[legalman1980]

Everyone is un-necessarily analyzing the term "Sci-Fi."

The term "Sci-Fi" is just an abbreviation for "Science Fiction"

Harlan Ellison is a more entertaining speaker, playing the out-spoken angry man role than he is a good writer.

He wrote one of the worst episodes of Tales From The Darkside (Dijin No Chaser) and has been carrying a chip on his shoulder over Star Trek & other shows who modify his work and make it better.

[harleykman]

@legalman1980 While Sci-fi is just an abbreviation, many people forget that the "sci" means science and then they create crap that could never be happen in real life (because it's scientifically impossible). Like when he says, "It's sci-fi... it doesn't have to make sense." OF COURSE it has to make sense, because it's Science fiction, not fantasy fiction.

.

Also now it's not even scifi... It's syfy. "I'm watching "Siffy" tonight. Ick.

[theGhoulman]

Man, Harlen, back of from Herb Solow! lol!

[willerror]

Wow, is that Roger Lodge from Blind Date?!

[arsepoetica71]

Every aspiring writer should know the name and work of Harlan Ellison. Go Harlan!

[hanshotfirst1138]

I think that in fairness, a lot of the bad material out there balances the good. Without the popularity of his work on Trek, Moore might never have gotten the ability to make BSG, itself a remake of an inferior older series . Without many years of subpar superhero comics, Alan Moore wouldn't have been able to deconstruct it with Watchmen. It doesn't excuse a lot the bad work out there, of course. But without it, lots of good stuff might never have happened. It's just about balance.

[Elric33239]

IOW Sturgeon's Law (94% of EVERYTHING is C-R-A-P) still holds. Sadly I agree. The irony of the success of Watchmen was that Moore IN HIS OWN WORDS didn't intend it to revitalize the superhero genre but to destroy it!

[hanshotfirst1138]

Good Lord, Ellison looks like he'd be a hard person to be in the same room with.

[Elric33239]

When I met him 24 years ago he acted like a perfect gentleman who admittedly had strong opinions that he allowed anyone to agree or disagree with. He's not a saint but he's by no means an ogre IMHO!

[Naxwell]

'Spic Fic"

Oh shit! Oh no he didn't!

Harlan is hilarious.

[KentAllard]

science fiction is literature

scifi are shitty tv shows like Star Gate and Firefly and bad paperbacks

[KentAllard]

And Avatar.

[hanshotfirst1138]

Avatar was frustrating, because with Cameron at the helm, there was so damn much potential for it to be so much more intelligent than it was.

[KentAllard]

or properly adapted The Word for World is Forest by Ursula K. Le Guin instead of ripping off only half of it

[hanshotfirst1138]

Or "Lawrence of Arabia", "Delgo", "Ferngully", "A Man Called Horse", "The Mission", "Blue Soldier", "The New World", "Dances With Wolves", "Terra", "The Last Of The Mohicans", "Princess Mononoke", "The Last Samurai", "The Emerald Forest", The Lord of the Rings, "Pocahontas", "Nausicaa", and "Warcraft/Starcraft"

[KentAllard]

no just The Word for World is Forest by Ursula K. Le Guin, go read it.

[Elric33239]

I've heard that they're finally going to adapt "John Carter: Warlord of Mars!" I can't wait for the reviews from clueless brain drains who are going to accuse them of ripping off "Avatar!"

[Eldeecue]

Starfate And Firefly are...really crappy, agreed. Most of Star Trek is, too, I have to say.

My picks for "best" would be either B5 or Farscape. Peronal pick would be Farscape, but B5 is a close second.

[hanshotfirst1138]

Whedon isn't untalented, just endlessly overinflated by fanboys and not without problems.

[Eldeecue]

@Hanshot

Yeah, I agree....the musical thingy he did with Neil Patrick Harris reversed my opinion of him. He is MASSIVELY overrated though....and honestly....I think BSG is too. I can hear those thumbs downs a comin' already..

It was the best sci fi show of its time, yes...but it didn't have much in terms of competition for that title--that much you have to give me.

[hanshotfirst1138]

Ellison is evidently a big BSG fan.

[Eldeecue]

Yeah, I know....I forgive him though.

[hanshotfirst1138]

NEW BSG, I mean.

[MartinKoolhoven]

It's a shame they all agree. Would be better to have somebody who cheers for scifi.

[gilgamess]

Note that Ms. Solow is introduced as a professor of Science Fiction AND Literature, as if the two have to be separated in the halls of academe. This is, of course not a knock on her. I had similar discussion about this regarding Jazz with an old professor of mine.

[hanshotfirst1138]

He was arguing the jazz wasn't music?

[Elric33239]

Or he was arguing that jazz isn't worthy of critical analysis like CLASSICAL MUSIC which is pure BS IMHO! Between the high-brow snobbery and low-brow anti-intellectualism in the US of A is it any wonder that we as a society are over 50% illiterate and bookstore chains are driving out the more respectable independent stores?!?

[hanshotfirst1138]

So had he not heard of Davis? Coltrane? Parker? Armstrong? I've always said that the truth is somewhere in the middle. Similarly, arguing that people who like pulp stuff are stupid equally robs people of lots of great material. In the end, I think that you just have to sift. I don't share Ellison's bile and anger (especially as a Trekkie), but I understand where he's coming from and see what he's trying to say, even if I disagree with some of it.

[Elric33239]

Either he had and dismissed them as "noisemakers" and "musical hacks" or he had deeper prejudices that prevented him from enjoying what these geniuses had produced. While I too enjoyed Trek since I was 6, I could understand how literary legends like Ellison could attribute media SF fan-based hooliganism, that he has been a victim of since he first addressed the "scifi vs SF" problem at conventions in Media SF publications, to SFX worship replacing solid speculative storytelling.

[stalepie13]

I don't see how there can be any story that actually needs the extra technology, the science fiction, to get across its human ideas.

Regarding the interior life of characters in movies, can't you use subtitles to represent that, if you don't want to cloud things over with voice over (Dune 1984 / film noir style)?

[Elric33239]

I don't think that's the point that Harlan was making. I don't think that he was emphasizing the importance of technology per se, he was emphasizing how technology affects humanity which is completely different. IMHO showing off futuristic gun's effectiveness as a kill-toy would be Scifi while studying how the gun affects the mind of the gunman as well as the people that he attacks AND defends is SF. One example "Terminator/Predator/Aliens vs. Soldier/Demon With a Glass Hand/A Boy and his Dog.

[Alexsy82]

i love this video. amazing insights.

[cathbad2468]

Never insult your audience's intelligence. Too much 'scifi' does just that, which is a shame. 7 of 9 is the most egregious example of this.

The best science fiction show of all time is B5.

[hanshotfirst1138]

I just sat watching Transformers 2 and thinking that it was sad that that was all that Michael Bay thought of my intelligence. I felt a little insulted.

[hanshotfirst1138]

How did Seven insult people's intelligence?

[Elric33239]

Her detractors dismissed her as a "6 ft tall Barbie Doll" who gave sex-starved 16 year old boys wet dreams without lifting their intellects. While I can see how that might have been a contribution to stopping the "channel surfers" from pushing that damned button, I didn't feel exploited nor disgusted by watching "Voyager's resident sex symbol." But I'm an admittedly dirty old man so don't go by me. ;)

[dontleademsomuch]

2001 was science fiction so was silent running.

[Elric33239]

2001: Definately. Silent Running: Open to debate. The central premise was that "there were no room for trees to grow on Earth, so let's plant them on orbital space stations until they prove to be too expensive to sustain and then destroy the stations!" The fact that a sociopathic forest ranger could see the stupidity of such a premise should have tipped off the filmmakers, as moving as the story was on an emotional level.

[Jonnern72]

Is there a part 2 to this?

[dukeburger]

Thanks for sharing.

[ancalites]

Yvone Fern looks a little like a female version of Eddie Izzard.

[DrDespicable]

This is terrific! I'd love to see the rest! Thanks for posting this!

[DrinkOfTheCloud]

I think Harlan Ellison is a pretty cool guy. Eh writes about aleins and doesn't afraid of anything.

[Teabonesteak]

So this is why I hate Will Smith......well not the man, just his Science Fiction work.

[Teabonesteak]

The fuck is roger lodge doing there?!

[sisyphusorianus9787]

Harlan Ellson & a young cable celeb Rodger Lodge in the same vid? Excellent.

[picturepainter]

"so,if the term 'Sci Fi' diminishes the idea of Science fiction as literature,then what does the acronym 'SF' do? "

SF encompasses science fiction, but the initials can also stand for speculative fiction or science fantasy. Gene Wolfe's "Book of the New Sun" fits into the category of science fiction, but it also fits the fantasy genre. As Arthur C. Clarke said, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." John Wyndham didn't even like the term science fiction.

[seerauberjohnny]

so,if the term 'Sci Fi' diminishes the idea of Science fiction as literature,then what does the acronym 'SF' do?

[gooyzit]

It's been two months, where is it?

[john683011]

I agree. I look forward to part 2 of this. As crotchety and ornery as people like to accuse Harlan Ellison of being, he is an idealist. He knows that big money will dumb down big concept every time and is pissed off about it. Same too for Straczynski and Herb Solow.

[Elric33239]

More JMS than Solow. While he could see how low-brow the film industry was becoming, all he did was point to the "pretty money" and said "Live with it, guys!" Fatalism or yielding to a self-fulfiling prophecy? You decide!

[Elric33239]

By "he" I meant Solow, of course. JMS is probably licking his wounds after TNT contributed to the destruction of "Crusade" along with potential future B5 spinoffs, "Lost Episode direct-to-DVD projects" notwithstanding!

[harleykman]

@Elric33239 This is 1997 (it says so in the description). Babylon 5 had just been SAVED by TNT for its fifth season, so JMS was still having good thoughts about them.

[Elric33239]

@harleykman Perhaps that was the case at that time, but I have no doubt that he was having difficulty selling a new SF series to other networks before and after TNT's temporary bailout. Also, before TNT bought B5, JMS attempted to sell it to Fox who turned it down in favor of "Space: Above & Beyond."

[harleykman]

@Elric33239 Well that's true. JMS said numerous times he had trouble selling B5 because people thought the existence of Star Trek meant there was no more room for another space-based show. He invented the idea in 1988 but it took several years to find a buyer.

.

Space A&B on FOX was purchased in 1995. B5 in 1992 (by warners). They really didn't have any connection to one another

.

[Elric33239]

@harleykman Just because we the viewing public saw Space A&B three years after B5 was on the air it doesn't mean that this was when it was approached by the Fox network. Farscape was known as "Space Chase" and shopped around for a network to buy it for years before Hallmark bought it! TV shows aren't created and produced by just adding water and "POOF! There it is!"

[QWYX9]

@john683011 You find a man or a woman, who wants to make this world better, who is kind and rationale. How do you call him? An idealist! Of course! Because the other people don't want to make themselves better and actually do about the worlds shape. They are realists.

[Elric33239]

I echo the thanks that were already posted. It's always a pleasure to hear vintage Harlan on talk shows and seeing how much he could anticipate from society that power-brokers like Herb Solow refused to accept for the sake of the Almighty Dollar! Bring on Part Deux!

[hanshotfirst1138]

I again bring up Michael Bay.

[Elric33239]

Good point! Transformers the First at least attempted to tell a story while T the 2nd was all about how many explosions they could cram into a film!

[nashiraecuador]

thanks for uploading this video!

[sigsbee24]

nice - so when are you going to post part 2?

[Almuric7]

This is an amazing video. Thanks for posting cultureoutofcontrol.

[Xenu]

I remember this show.

[Xenu]

Alfred Bester's "The Demolished Man" is one of the great books of the 20th century??? Uh... okay.

[Elric33239]

I believe it was the first book to win the Hugo Award for Best Novel, so yes, I would agree with Harlan's verdict on it. Also, it was the first novel that I've read that challenged the notion that a psychopath can only be dealt with through violent means.

[sisyphusorianus9787]

It's a rough book, I hear you Xenu. The concept is what's key, I loved the ideas (and they WERE BREAKTHROUGH--this was written back when scifi was still rife w/ tales of women getting strangulated by tentacled people-eaters from Venus, getting rescued by ubermenches w/ an array of super-tech @ their disposal, man! In terms of craft, TDM is a bit sophomoric, BUT THE IDEAS... marvelous. So poo on you, buster.

[mephigog]

Great find.

[cultureoutofcontrol]

thanks. part two should be coming up soon.

[harleykman]

@cultureoutofcontrol Does "soon" mean 1 year later? ;-)