I like the last part... when all these developmental increase in speed and maneuverability will overwhelm the pilot's capability to control them. The faster and maneuverable they can go, the more the G-forces it can obtain...
Can the human pilot keep up? Time will tell when all development for fighter planes will stop and a new type of super weapon will be resorted into...
The typhoon only needs 300 meters of runway in order to take off. The typhoon is a modern interpretation of the F-16. A small and extremely agile fighter plane. I hope they produce a version, which may take off and land on aircraft carriers. Thrust vectoring could additionally improve the performance. I hope the JSF F35 is cancelled.
F-22, despite being stealthy, will need its radar on to detect an enemy, those radar waves can be detected by RWR systems and that gives away its position. Also, modern IRST like typhoon's can detect things like F22 at 50 miles. So the stealth advantage isn't all that.
@parthsna F-22 can detect enemy aircraft over 200 miles away. The Eurofighter is a really great machine has everything, it's one of my favorites but the only thing missing is stealth, that delta wing would show up on radar like a KC-135
@aandc "that delta wing would show up on radar like a KC-135"
What ur not taking into account is the EF's Active Cancellaion my friend as you are stuck in your own paradigm (VLO). Advanced Electrical Warfare Systems such as AC recieve, distort and then send the signal back slightly out of tone thus hiding the jet & is not effected by adverse weather. EF also has PIRATE tech that detects the heat that a jet makes as it moves thru the sky. The nose is a dead give away. Research the EF's tech
@TheARMAProductions Active cancellation is not something that's unique to the Eurofighter. Just about every modern fighter aircraft has it. They've even fitted these systems on MiG-21 Bisons. So relatively speaking, that technology doesn't add stealth compared to any other 4++ or 5th generation fighter, which are also equipped with it. The delta wing design and canards as well as the external weapons are all detectable with AESA radar.
@aandc2005 Jets such as the B-2 have been using variations of AC for years. Hiding the jet electronically is more relaibale than traditional VLO and especially in adverse weather conditions. Another limitation of the F-22 and it's VLO is the need for internal weapon bays. This means the F-22 will be using the new AIM120D instead of the more powerful ram jet missile METEOR (£1.000,000 per unit). The METEOR missile is being accomodated by BAE for use on the F-35 which is good news mind you
@TheARMAProductions You must know something that a lot of the top dogs don't. European countries are investing lots of money in the F-35, which uses VLO technology. The Russians and the Chinese are also developing 5th generation aircraft with stealth. A pair of jury-rigged VLO choppers were able to fly from Afghanistan deep into Pakistan (30 miles from the border with India) and close to the capital without being detected and Pakistan has a pretty decently equipped military.
@Aces Not really. It should be obvious that radar/infa red technology catches up VLO capabilities. European countries have been pressured into buying the F-35 as with the Dutch (altho I believe they have canx the order due to money). This is what the arms industry is mate. Obama for example tried his best to get the Indians to go for the F-18/F-16 in the recent Indian MRRCA deal. The UK has invested allot into the F-35 as we are tier 1 partners but keeping both philospohies on the table is best
@TheARMAP Infra red tech isn't unique to the EF. IRST has been around since the 70s. Yet, the Russians and the Chinese are still developing stealth aircraft. Just because stealth isn't 100% fool proof doesn't mean it doesn't provide SOME advantage. A VLO aicraft is still far less detectable than an aircraft that lights up easily on radar. That makes a difference in combat. The EF is 4th generation AC, most countries have that "philosophy on the table"
@AcesHighTrooper69 I never said infa red was unique to the EF. it's been around for years but PIRATE hasn't. PIRATE is new to EF.
"These articles are all speculation"
The problem is that our entire argument/debate is speculation. How many jets has the F-22 shot down? How many the EF? When have they ever gone up against each other? etc. I hear on YT that the EF has defeatd the F-22, then vica versa, then the Rafale has beaten F-22, then vica versa etc lolz.
@AcesHigh They are working to fit the METEOR missile internally into the F-35 which is cool though. And we will fit the infar red PIRATE technology (Stealth killer tech) into it. We can detect the heat of a jet from 150 miles out with this. Jets produce allot of heat as they move through the sky. Not just the engine but the nose itself and it's this which can be detected. Think about it...when everyone has VLO...how are they going to detect each other? Technology develops...it doesn't stop
@TheARMAProductions Yes technology does advance. But VLO still confers an advantage over non-VLO aircraft. A stealth aircraft is still much harder to detect than a completely non-stealth aircraft, which can be detected by conventional radar as well as passive tracking systems. IRST is not something that's unique to the EF. While it may reduce the advantage of stealth, it is clearly still an advantage enough for the UK, Russia and China to invest billions in stealth tech.
@AcesHigh The next gen missiles for the USAF is the AIM120D I believe but this cannot compete with RAM jet propulsion. Conventional missiles use a 1 stage rocket system allowing kenetic energy to take it to it's target. The missile looses energy as it approaches the outer limits of it's range envelope which makes it easy for fighters to evade the missile. RAM jet sucks in air keeping it at Mach 4.0 for at guranteed 100 Km.
@Aces Pakistan may have a fairly decent equipped military (US hand me downs mainly) but they do not have the level of radar/infar red technology compared to high tech nations such as the UK. We were able to detect VLO over 10 years ago:
w w w . theregister . co . uk/2001/06/20/stealth_detection_system_disappears/
Nowadays we have this:
w w w . selex-sas . com/EN/Common/files/SELEX_Galileo/Products/PIRATE _ dsh . pdf
@AcesHighTrooper69 Not to mention that as soon as a jet switches on it's radar....the game is up anyway. Sneaking up on Pakistani space cadets is not the same as trying to penetrate a high tech nations airspace where high tech radar/infa red/missiles will be used/fired back :)
@TheARMAProductions The game is up for the Typhoon and other 4th generation fighters even before they turn on their radars. All the things that can be used to detect the F-22 are orders of magnitude easier to use in detecting the EF. Plus, modern air combat is a team sport. The F-22 may never have to turn its radar on because it will likely be working with other F-22s, electronic warfare aircraft and AWACS. Stealth is better than no stealth.
@AcesHigh In fact, the F-22 is only able to communicate with other F-22's and not any other jets but what your saying is all theory. If the VLO capabilities of the F-22 are taken away then it doesn't stand a chance against a high G jet such as EF which is carrying RAM jet propelled missiles mate. This is why the USAF dares to use the F-22 apart from in airshows. It doesn't work and needs more development. Whilst China/Russia try to catch up...we are developing 6th gen:
@TheARMAProductions Except, most articles out there cite the Raptor as having superior instantaneous and sustained turn rates to the EF. It can supercruise to a higher speed (the EF can only supercruise when running clean) and it has thrust vectoring. You act like stealth is the only advantage the Raptor has. And F-22s can communicate with other USAF aircraft, just not with other NATO aircraft, which is why they were kept out of Libya.
@Ace "Except, most articles out there cite the Raptor as having superior instantaneous and sustained turn rates to the EF".
Please refer me to these articles as so far you have not posted a single one. Your semi correct about the EF only being able to SC when running clean (it can hold a few missiles) but this is what the new TVN engines are for (hence the EF project is still ongoing). but even with these engines...let's see the F-22 do this:
@TheARMAProductions Google is your friend. It's not hard to type it up. You will find numerous articles even on EF fan pages that say that the EF's instantaneous and sustained turned rates are lower than that of the Raptor. Of course, the Raptor's true specs are classified. As for that vid, very solid maneuvering, but nothing that a lot of 4th generation jets can't do. The EF has inferior maneuvering capabilities to the Su-30MKI, and the RAF has even admitted this.
@AcesHighTrooper69 Google is a double edged weapon because most of what you get is fanboy opinions. It's the same deal with the officialy BAE and Lockheed sites. they are trying to promote their technology so neither can be trusted. I have not seen any 4th gen or even 5th gen jets do what that EF did with 6 missiles, 4 GBU's and 3 tanks. If I am wrong then post a video.
@TheARMAProductions You're right, Google is a double-edged sword. But here are the facts: the USA has had way more modern combat experience than any country in the world. The USA also has more money to play with than any other country in the world. These things matter a whole lot and you'd be kidding yourself if you think they don't. So at the end of the day, when even the UK's MoD rates the EF as vastly inferior to the F-22, I'd probably agree with them.
@AcesHighTrooper69 Nah...the J-20 is like the PAK-50 mate. They are bluffing like they have done for the last 5 decades. I do not fear jets that can't even barrell roll and are just put out there to try and warn us off (parnoia). Even if they do turn out to be real....by the time they have them operational the US/UK will have 6th gen unmanned jets
@TheARMAProductions You yourself said never to underestimate anyone, my friend. I really hope you're right. But the big challenge for the future is a rising China. As much as people may bash the West, I still hope we remain atop the world order. We are still far more benevolent than China is and a world with the USA, UK, Germany etc. on top is better off than a world with China calling the shots.
@AcesHigh I have allot of opinions on China and the basic issue is a rising Chinese consumer class. At the moment, China relies heavily upon building then exporting Western tech back to us but they are tryign to move into their own hig quality brands and if they can then we will get trouble. At the moment...we can just canx trade and China would collapse like a pack of cards. At the moment, China, Russia, India and Brazil do not have a single brand between them (Rolls Royce, Microsoft etc)
@AcesHighTrooper69 Same deal with Russia. 90% of their economy depends on energy exports to the EU. Any funny bizz from them and we canx trade. That takes out 90% of their economy within a week or two. India is the same with the service sector. it'sa mainly IT in india providing services to western companies. Believe me mate....the West has things on lockdown. There's more than one way to skin a cat :)
The real danger to us is mass immigration from low IQ'd 3rd world nations
@AcesHighTrooper69 Here's just one example of Western dominantion. Let's look at the jet engine industry for commercial jets. Rolls Royce owns 40% of the market with the other 60 % being owned by GE and P&W. The USA owns more or less everything when it comes to computer hardware with the germans owning the car industry. China were in fact caught spying on French car makers Renault recently. In my own opinion....I believe there will be a big war should the balance of power shift too much
@AcesHighTrooper69 EF is inferior to the SU-30MKi when at low speeds due to the delta wing config but is more agile at super sonic speeds and this is where the EF will be flying most of it's mission. Why do you think India chose the more expensive EF over the Migs? It wasn#t because the cheaper Migs were better. It's the supersonic manouverability that seperates the EF from all other jets. If you read the Indian report you'll see that no other jet could match it at super sonic speeds
@TheARMAProductions Yes, but most dogfights occur at subsonic speeds. At longer distances, the planes' maneuverability doesn't really make much of a difference when you're dealing with missiles that can pull way more gs than any human-piloted aircraft ever can. It's all about ECMs etc. at that point.
@AcesHighTrooper69 I found out something that may interest you and I learn't it from an American nuclear scientist. There's no g limit for humans. It's actually the time in which the body can sustain the G. So for example...
18g's may be say...2 seconds, 36 g's 1 second etc (I'll get the exact data if you wish). So we can pull 100 G's for a split second. That may not sound like allot but that kind of acceleration would get you 100 miles in a second lol
@TheARMAProductions For all the talk of the EF's incredible maneuverability, at the end of the day it hasn't demonstrated any maneuvers that can't be done by a lot of 4th generation aircraft. Heck, it hasn't even done the Pugachev's Cobra yet. Of course, that doesn't have real utility in combat situations, but it does demonstrate fantastic AOA.
@Aces If these other 4th gen jets can perform like EF then please explain why India has chosen the more expensive EF? I have read the MMRCA report and know the difference. The EF totally outclassed all jets including the Rafale. The term 'generation' is just a sales pitch coined by Lockheed Martin, On paper, the EF is more 5th gen than the F-35. Lets look at the facts...F-35 has no supercruise, low speed, low agility, low payload, low range. All it has is frontal LO
@TheARMAProductions I don't disagree that the EF is a fine bird and it is better than most other 4th gen jets, but it is still a 4th gen jet. It can supercruise, but not in actual combat when it will be carrying munitions. Sure, the new engines might change performance some, but they still can't address the problem of air resistance and drag caused by external weapons. Obviously, a plane carrying its weapons internally won't have to deal with these issues.
@AcesHighTrooper69 But the EF will come in variants. So the multi role variant will have these issues like you say but the fighter variant carrying A to A missiles only won't. The METEOR missile has been designed specifically for stealth/drag reduction. We will have to wait until the final block is maed I guess before we can really judge.
@AcesHigh U wanna hope your correct about the F-22 because it's clear to see just how much better the EF is over the teens. EF just knocked the F-16 and F-18 out of the Indian MMRCA deal and will probably clinch the 12 billion $ deal (the Indians are amazed by it). This is why the USAF insists it has a working F-22 in it's arsenal so as to give it an edge over other fighters but you will need to re open the project & continue to develop. So far allI have seen is it operate at airshows.
@TheARMAProductions So the EF is better than planes that first entered service in the 70s-early 80s? Fantastic! And if you're going to go by what the Indians think, then maybe you should read what they had to say after the Indradhanush exercises with the Typhoon. They praised the aircraft but weren't exactly blown away by it. In fact, they though the same Su-30MKIs that got waxed by F-15Cs at Red Flag did pretty well against the Typhoon.
@AcesHighTrooper69 "So the EF is better than planes that first entered service in the 70s-early 80s? Fantastic"
Well this is what happens when you put these 70's/80's jets up against the EF in a bid to win a contract isn't it matey :)
As for red flag, the EF had CAPTOR radar back then as it was the T1 block (sold off). CAPTOR has a wide search band but is very observable when switched on. T3A block as AESA Ceasar radar and EF's have pissed all over the F-15. Feel free to ask me for links
@AcesHighTrooper69 Coming back to the F-15...this is where the EF T1 sucks. It has weak CAPTOR radar. Even the F-18/F16/Mirages etc can take that out at BVR but it has nothing to do with the airframe and everything to do with the radar. AESA is far superior but EF T3A as a hybrid radar system called AESA Ceasar which basically combines the best bits from CAPTOR and then mixes it with AESA. We sold these T1's off to the Saudi's.
@Aces Also, Red Flag tests are not pitting NATO jets against each other. The point of them is to develop tactics together but I can play this game too. F-15 humiliation to EF:
w w w . flightglobal . com/blogs/the-dewline/2010/01/eurofighter-boasts-usaf-f-15-k . html
h t t p : // eucitizens.eu/Forum/index . php?topic=11.0
The second defeat was by a two seater trainer variant of the EF against 2 F-15's
You can't complain that I compared odler US jets when you are trying to yourself
@AcesHighTrooper69 Think of it logically...according to this American made program the EF can sustain 9 g indefinitely where as the F-15/F-16 can only do it for a second. This basically means the EF can just pull back on the stick and get behind it (as is what happened in the below links). When it comes to BVR warfare then there won't be allot in these jets as much of the technology (radar/missiles etc) is the same.
@TheARMAProductions It's not American made. It's Canadian....listen to the accent, there are subtle differences. Most combat these days is BVR. More than 2/3s of the kills in the Gulf War were BVR and most of the WVR kills were only to confirm whether the target was an enemy or friend. Since then, BVR tech has only gotten better. I acknowledge that the EF is probably better than the F-16 and most F-15s (w/o upgrades), but it's not by a huge margin. The F-22 is in a different league.
@Aces You sure? I have read articles that suggest the US AIM120C (which is a good missile) has a success ratio of around 50% against the Arabs? But ofc...BVW is important as that's the first shot. I want to know why the F-22 is in a different league. The radar is the same. the missiles the same (until METEOR and AIM120D come out) etc. The proof is in the pudding my friend. I'm not saying either jet is better as we won't know until we see them fight. We are in that gre area as most is classified
@TheARMAProductions VLO does make a difference even though you insist it doesn't. If IRST were enough to negate stealth, then the F-117, the B-2, the F-22 and the F-35 would never have been pursued. The Chinese and Ruskies wouldn't be building stealth jets either. As for the Gulf War, you can find a documentary about that right here on Youtube. 2/3s of A2A kills were BVR. The EF pilot even said in this vid, "no self respecting fighter pilot should get in a dogfight."
@Aces To clarify my posistion on VLO (which is what you initially responded too)....
I said it's effective against low tech nations meaning it has it's strengths although it can be countered and nations are constantly working to do this. The question is....is it cheaper to develop VLO or counter? Europe chose to counter but it remains to be seen on how effective they are. I don't disagree on what your saying about BVR combat although that EF pilot also said you have to be ready for WVR combat
@AcesHighTrooper69 I must say tho...respect for keeping it cool. Usually this kind of debate decends into virtual war by now lolz. We Brits have learn't not to understimate anything or anyone.
@TheARMAProductions At the end of the day, the EF and the Raptor will most likely be fighting on the same side, so a lot of this is moot. But I do think the USAF would whup that limey ass if it ever came down to it ;) What we have to worry about are the next generation of Flanker variants, the J-20 and the Sukhoi T-50.
@AcesHighTrooper69 If the US has a jet that can take out the EF then it's the F-22 but we will never get to see how good the F-22 is because the USAF isn't going to use it. They are waiting for the F-35 and then 6th gen jets
@TheARMAProductions And since we're talking about export customers, it's interesting that the Saudis, who purchased the Eurofighter, later thought it necessary to place an order for a bunch of new F-15s in addition to upgrading the ones they already had in service. Why would they do that if the EF really was all that? There are far cheaper ways to appease Uncle Sam if that was the aim here.
@AcesHighTrooper69 Dude..the EF T1 that the Saudi's brought is a rip off because it has CAPTOR radar. At BWR, most US jets have the edge there. Your making a mistake if you think that's the EF we use tho. With upgrades...most jets will be about the same as BVR warfare is electronical. Where EF has the edge is in WVR combat.
T3a EF is even getting new wngines as well as 3 dimensional TVN:
@AcesHigh It's a myth that TVN is for agility. What it's actually for is improving performance when in super cruise mode as it saves fuel. The new Ej200 engine has an increase of 10 0 15 % in power as well as 3D TVN. EF was the only jet in the MMRCA to demonstrate SC and the F-35 doesn't even have it. Look at the F-35....it cannot hit mach 2.0, cannot super cruise, has a low weapons paylod, low agility, low range and isn't even fully stealthed. it has LO (frontal stealth) rather than VLO
@TheARMAProductions These articles are all speculation. We don't really know the details of what they can and cannot detect. That being said, even if it were possible to detect stealth, it is still a worthwhile thing to have, which is why the UK and other nations are investing billions towards developing and procuring the F-35 and the Chinese as well as Russians are developing stealth aircraft. AC has some use, but that's a pretty standard feature on most recent 4th generation aircraft.
@AcesHighTrooper69 This is the very nature of this debate. You can't make the claims you do about VLO and then say 'These articles are all speculation' when I post an actual link my friend. The truth about these jets will only be exposed in real battle. What is a fact is that the F-22 program has been cancelled. Assuming the F-22 is any good you still have to update it constantly to keep it ahead of developing radar/infa red tech.
@TheARMAProductions The EF program has also been "cancelled." The number of orders have been significantly reduced. It's tough times and money is tight all around right now. And to say any weapons platform needs constant updating is a moot point. Neither the F-22 or the EF have been proven in battle (unless you count flying a few sorties over Libya as being "proven"). By that logic, the F-15 is the king since it's got 100+ kills and 0 losses.
No. The numbers have been reduced but the project still has funds for development hence the forth coming T3A block:
watch?v=zpNa4eprMf4
India's money will help even more here. Cancelled is not reducing the numbers but the canx of all funds to the project for upgrades. Look at the jets the F-15 has taken on tho....Sand monkeys with no missiles. I'd agree that the F-15 is a legend but to compare it to a modern jet is stupid
@TheARMAProductions what? the F-22 is MUCH stealthier than the eurofighter, can super cruse faster, has a faster max speed, has a higher max takeoff weight, has equal electronics, equal service ceiling, and only costs about $20million more than the eruofighter. the F-22 is the most well rounded fighter on the planet, and will remain that way for decades. the eurofighter is good but is just not comparable to the F-22, the F-22 is a masterpiece.
@hotpocketpoison EF has infar red PIRATE stealth killing technology. This detects the very heat that a jet makes as it moves through the sky. The F-22 has a slightly lower power to weight ratio but has a slightly faster top speed. Where EF falls down is in that it won't get AESA radar until next year. EF will be carrying RAM jet METEOR missiles too. Something the F-22 can't carry unless it does it externally in which case it will void the VLO capabilities.
@hotpocke Also, because the EF project hasn't been cancelled they are still developing it. Tranche 3 is the final block which will have better engines (better SC) and 3d TVN. My comment wasn't incorrect mind you. F-22 is kept in a shed/airshows where as EF has been to war. U can't compare the jets. We are simply civvies with a limited amount of real data on these jets. You get yours from programs like Future dogfights lol. We can only go by what we see. And what we see is EF actually fighting...
@hotpocketpoison There's no point in comparing EF against F-22 because I can't see them ever fighting. What should be looked at is how they would complient each other. Do not think that high tech nations such as the UK can't detect stealth. We've been able to do it since at least 2000. We do it via infa red now. The PIRATE system will probably be installed into the F-35 which is good. But keep in mind the F-35 is allot slower than these jets and cannot SC (yet it's somehow 5th generation lolz).
@hotpock The EF project didn't want VLO as this would mean internal weapon bays in turn meaning no ability to carry RAM jet missiles. Jets like EF hide themselves electronically via what's called Active Cancellaton. This tech recieves, distorts then sends the signal back slightly out of phase thus hiding the jet. AC is not vulnerable to adverse weather conditions like VLO is. The B2 uses a form of this tech. The EW cloud is around 30/40 miles on EF. Look all this up. Don't just watch the TV
@TheARMAProductions the F-22 is also equipted with radar cancelling capabilities, the thing is, it doesnt always work, just like plasma stealth it is only good against certain wave lengths. the F-22 has enough systems in place to protect it from almost every form of wave length.
watch?v=RgiThPPnIcY
that stupid washington post video is thrown around WAY to much. go to the links in this video and see that everything in that vid you posted was wrong, Rachel Madow is a moron. and internal-
@hotpocketpoison That Washington Post vid is an exaggeration although I posted it due to what u said about the cost of maintenance mate. The F-22 is very expensive to maintain. As for these technologies, this is where we hit an intellectual wall. The only people who will know the range at which a EF can lock on to say...an F-22 will be BAE & Lockheed. This is why I tend to stay away from debating what tech is better. It's basically VLO vs high tech missiles but it's good to have both approaches
@TheARMAProductions weapon bays are good for almost every missile,you wont always be carrying the uber expensive scramjet missiles, hence having internal weapon bays are good for the more common missiles like the AIM-7,9,and 120. internal weapon bays reduce RCS and reduce drag,making the aircraft stealthier,faster, and more fuel efficient. and the F-35 is>NOT< an air superiority fighter,they would NOT be sent to engage air threats,they are MULTIROLE FIGHTERS(with STOVL variants)! and the combat
@TheARMAProductions history of the EF does NOT involve any air-air engagements. by your logic that must mean the F-15 is FAR superior to the EF,F-22,T-50,AND J-20 because it has been in more battles??? that is completely asinine. the F-22 has been in simulated dogfights against F-14,15,16,and 18 and has racked up a K/D ratio of 144-0 collectively. the same can not be said for the eurofighter. i am NOT saying the EF is a bad plane at all, but it is just not comparable to the F-22.
@hotpocketpoison You cannot fit RAM jet missiles inside internal weapon bays without modding the Missile. They are probably going to mod the METEOR missile for internal use on the F-35 tho. F-22 will be using the AIM120D when it's finished but this missile cannot compete with RAM jet propulsion. Rada/infa red advances all the time. This is why Europe decided against VLO as they took the idea that it's cheaper to counter. It's yet to be seen who is correct.
@hotpocketpoison Believe me...don't get your info from this Red Flag BS on YT. The French claim the Rafale beat the EF but here's what really happened (according to a French pilot) lol
h t t p : / /imageshack . us/f/339/afm010002 . jpg/
Red Flag is not about pitting NATO jets against each other. it's about developing tactics for joint opps in the future and these 'kills' come when the other jet is simulating the SU's as part of Air Red. YT fanboys have taken this RF out of context.
@hotpocketpoison When a jet such as EF/F-22 plays the part of Air Red in Red Flag, the capabilities are downgraded so as to simulate the Mig 29/SU Flanker (the bulk of the Russia air force). Idiots on the net then think a jet such as Rafale has beaten the F-22/EF lol. The French refused to play the part of Air Red (French pilots own words) as they had one eye on exporting the Rafale and so used the RF simulations as a publicity stunt. The MMRCA technical evaluation corrected all this nonsense.
@TheARMAProductions actually, the F-22 as of 2010 only needs about 10 hours of maintenance per flight hour, and is about the same to maintain as the F-15(thanks to the advanced computers that tell the technicians what is wrong before it gets worse). and i totally agree with your statement on the Red flag comments, people just throw things like that around without researching them. the EF IS far superior to the Rafael but the Rafael wasnt actually designed to be an air superiority fighter. it-
@TheARMAProductions was designed to be a carrier based multirole fighter, and if i were a general i would be pretty eager to get my hands on it because i think it offers more bang for your buck than either the EF or the F-22, but when comparing these planes one on one the Rafale is inferior. in a high speed dogfight i think the EF would have the edge over the F-22 but at low speeds the F-22 would win because of its thrust vectoring, and long range would be dominated by whichever fighter could-
@hotpocketpoison UK & Germany already have the GR4 which is why they wanted a pure interceptor. Also, Typhoons AESA radar will be much more capable than Rafale because Typhoon has the larger radar aperture which allows an AESA with at least 1300 T/R modules. Rafale's 550mm aperture no more than 850 T/R modules and this is a huge difference in terms of range and tracking capability.
All this is what makes NATO so strong. We cover all doctrines because NATO is essentially different minds working on the same problem where as China is one nation one culture. This is in fact the key to the Wests dominance. You have the Americans working on one area, the Brits on another, the French on another etc. This covers redundancy. So if for example...the Chinese found away to counter VLO....NATO would still have a capability. I would go with F-22 being better but I'm not sure how much by
Yeah. Even the ones they have built were recently grounded again & have been barred from flying above 25,000 feet since Jan this year. I was explaining that one doctrine is not the only doctrine. Europe went down the road of high tech RAM jet missiles and sensors such as PIRATE to counter VLO. Assuming a VLO jet gets a lock on to EF first and launches a BVRAAM, this will alert EF to the posistion of the enemy jet and EF's AESA will jam the BVRAAM. Pirate can then detect heat at 60 miles or so
@hotpocketpoison Yeah The Rafale is better at low speeds & low altitudes thanks to it's canards being closer together. It can even pull 11 g for a second or two. Where the EF leaves it is in intercept capabilities as it's canards are further apart giving it more agility at higher speeds/altitudes. The Rafale was unable to demonstrate any level of super cruise capability in the MMRCA evaluation. It all comes down to requirements which is why Dassault split from the project.
@hotpocketpoison The Rafale is a backup option should there be any issues with the F-35. I really hope the F-35 is a success because they will look pretty flash on our new carriers in 2019. Boeing and MBDA are working to accomodate the RAM jet missile METEOR internally into the F-35 as well. The Argies won't like that one bit haha
@SDIR5678 The EF is the superior air dominace fighter, it has more TR modules giving it's AESA radar alot more power, is faster giving it's missiles more energy, can fly at 45,000 feet with a full payload, can supersruise and can sustain high g for longer periods, The Rafale is the better ground attack fighter. Here's a non fanboy technical evaluation carried out by the MMRCA:
h t t p : / / w w w . defence.pk/forums/india-defence/138267-laymans-analysis-our-last-two-mmrca-contenders . html
PS: Rafale was designed as a multi role carrier born jet. EF was designed as an air dominace fighter. Rafale cannot fly above 45,000 feet, cannot supercruise with munitions & is slower than EF. The higher and faster you go, the more kenetic energy you get on your missiles. A jet would have to use reheat just to be able to catch a mach 1.3 supercruising EF. A jet only has around 2 minutes of reheat. Where Rafale is better lies in the ground attack role but this is because it was designed to be so
@SDIR5678 I really shoould of read your comment correctly before posting lol. You said 'best looking'. It's strange because from some angles I think the EF looks best but from others I think it looks ugly. In my opinion, older jets like the F-15/F-16 are far better looking than both the EF, F-22 & Rafale
@SDIR5678 I see, Yeah it's because the F-35 is VLO based. F-35C should be a very good jet. It will be able to slew it's missiles via 360 degrees and will have a similiar HD Helmet to the EF one I sent you. The pilot won't have to turn his jet to shoot. He can just look at the target and tell the system to fire
well, I make general assumptions sometimes for example the richest country(USA) makes the best planes and it just so happens they have the best pilots.
@Chauvignoul. oh, didn't realise you were and expert and flew every single plane that has every took to the skies, so could possible say such a statement.
This plane got it's ass kicked in the UAE against rafales and raptors
what an expensive joke this plane is. It was meant to be an interceptor hence it's powerful engines but at the last minute the Brits decided they want to make it's an all around fighter. This plane is not comparable to any of the modern fighers it is a European farce
@toweronepower USA, French, and British airforces sent six of their fighters to UAE for combat training and mock dogfights. These fighters being 6 raptors, 6 rafales, and 6 eurofighters and 6 f16s
battles: Raptor v Typhoon, raptor vs Rafale, Rafale vs Typhoon. This is the first time the Raptors have taken part in such an exercise
The big surprise was when the Rafales dominated the f 16s 6-2 and RAF Typhoons 7-1
And gave the Raptors all it can handle with the F22 only able to lock on once
Well the interesting thing is that the UAE are desperately looking for their next gen fighter to purchase but can't make a decision. And we also know that since it came into production the Rafale has been struggling to find a foreign buyer.
Could this have been "motivation" for the French jets to fight extremely ferocious?
maybe
I'm just glad the f22 didn't get crushed like the Typhoon did, considering how much that plane costs, it would have been devastating to our air force
well that is the plane they will be piloting for the foreseeable future. The air force are the ones that set the requirements for the planes they want. It would be a major blow to them to know that they will be flying a plane that doesn't live up to their standards or hopes.
It doesn't really matter to the company especially after they've already gotten a contract they just produce the m and let the airforce make the best of them
@TheProjektcc As long as all these planes are as good or better than potential enemies aircraft is there really a problem? Are the pilots really going to be thinking that they are flying a piece of shit? Fuck if a Eurofighter pilot is feeling vulnerable in a war zone how will a crewman of a huge long range bomber or something feel?
@TheProjektcc Why is it I can only find this info on French sites. No CONFIRMED info re these results anywhere. And according to USAF sites , the Raptors did'nt get involved much...........strange dont you think. Latest Kill ratios released by the Fedaration of American Scientists give the following
@TheProjektcc: There's no reliable source anywhere for the outcome of the UAE. It all depends on what "source" you want to believe. It's obvious that no airforce wants to look inferior. Even just because of direct consequences for sales numbers, especially in today's bad economy problems all around the world.
The bold statements the French airforce make are as dishonest as all others' statements are.
Actual wars will show what the strengths and weaknesses of each plane are.
@albedoshader: Rafale fought Typhoon emulating 'Flanker' or 'semi-Flanker', and Typhoon fought Rafale emulating 'Flanker' or 'semi-Flanker'. Rafale and Typhoon never flew against each other 'full up'.
It has been confirmed that the 'famous' Rafale victories over Typhoon were scored against tyro Typhoon pilots during the first week of their pre ATLC work up, and that the victories were all BVR using a weapon that Rafale can't actually carry in real life.
It has been confirmed that these were not the only meetings between the two types, and Eurofighter's contention that both sides enjoyed similar scores went unanswered and uncorrected by the Colonel. We can only assume, therefore, that such a statement is accurate.
It has been confirmed that Rafale did not detect any threats which a SEAD configured F-16CJ 'failed to see'.
@albedoshader: The bold statements of a French lt. colonel (Grandclaudon) don't count as a reliable source for me. The same would go for any UK or German military person.
The setting of the "engagements" just tells a less enthusiastic but a more realistic and toned-down story. Selling these planes isn't about "Top-Gun" coolness but collection of useful information in special combat situations and a lot of money - on all sides.
@albedoshader Don't listen to the French claims m8. EF has just taken the lot of them out in the recent Indian MMRCA dog fights (which is why it now looks as tho India will by EF):
w w w . t r i b u n e i n d i a . c o m / 2 0 1 1 / 2 0 1 1 0 1 1 1 / m a i n 1 . h t m
Like you say, those engagements were BVR in 2009 but another factor to note is that the T1 EF back then had inferior radar and it still won't have the hybrid AESA/Captor until 2012. When it does it's be even better :)
It is not stealth "and doesn't have to be." Right. But you cannot shoot what you cannot see. Vis, YF22 Raptor will kill you and you will not know what happened. He saw you but you did not see him. The Eurofighter has 40K lbs of thrust. The Raptor has 70K. This plane would loose miserably to the Raptor. Fortunately we are on the same side. Perhaps the Raptor could fly cover for you.
@cazziedawg1 FYI...your F22 is not invisible to modern Radar anyway...and If your F22 pilot turns his Radar on to locate the enemy...the whole fuckin world will see him coming..Like you said, you cant shoot what you cant see...and it works BOTH ways..not just one way. BTW...the EF also has a higher rate of climb than the F22..turns tighter at higher spedds....It has a better power to weight ratio and IR detection...Sorry to shatter your dream chum.
Wrong again, troll. The F-22's combat-loaded T/W is ~1.23:1. The EF's is ~1.09:1. The EF will also be WAY draggier and have a lower G-limit due to all that crap hanging under it.
-"and IR detection"
Wrong again, troll. Aside from the fact that the F-22's flat exhaust plumes dissipate quicker than round ones, the EF's exhaust cans stick out like sore thumbs from WAY more angles than the F-22's.
@SuperAncientmariner -"Strange,,,,, the official rate of climb is still classified"
About three years back, an F-22 pilot posted his "takeoff story" on the fencecheck forum, and let it slip (unintentionally, perhaps) that he hit 0.99 Mach at about 18,000 ft.
Mach 0.99 @ those altitudes translates to ~61k-62k ft/min.
Again, this was with full (internal) tanks and 8 missiles on board, and no special climb-enhancing "Rutowski" type profile. Just a straight pull to 90° immediately after takeoff.
At the time he was under orders by the brass to act as the F-22's online PR man--to go on forums and talk about the F-22 with us geeks. And while he was still being mindful of OPSEC, his actions (unjustly) came under scrutiny by the OSI at one point, leading to his ceasing all online activities.
He was cleared of any wrongdoing, and AFAIK is still in command of the 90th FS at Elmendorf. The USAF clearly didn't think much of the whole thing.
@em745aa I should'nt think they did lol Reminds me of when Yeager broke the sound barrier and someone published details. The FBI and CIA went in howling for blood and it turned out that the details of the plane had previously been released by the USAF some 2 months previously.
@em745aa FYI...your F22 is not invisible to modern Radar anyway...and If your F22 pilot turns his Radar on to locate the enemy...the whole fuckin world will see him coming..Like you said, you cant shoot what you cant see...and it works BOTH ways..not just one way. BTW...the EF also has a higher rate of climb than the F22..turns tighter at higher spedds....It has a better power to weight ratio and IR detection...Sorry to shatter your dream chum. 2 days ago
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
Ooo americans dont like any competition to US air superiority, americans on every eurofighter vid slagging it off and bringing up the F22.
take it as a compliment, if they thought it was shite they wouldnt be here slagging it off. take a look on tornado vids, no americans on there slagging it off cus it aint no threat. basic psychology.
That would require a complete redesign of the aircraft though unfortunately, and I dont feel like paying any more taxes to pay for it. Americans only love the F22 because its a symbol of power despite it being a political ploy to get america back into work. Im surprised no one posted the video of that news report stating how the f22 couldn't operate if it was raining, how the fuck do you expect to fly over europe and NOT encounter precipitation?
for fuck sake. there are so many american people her moaning about how 'amazing' the F22 is. SHUT THE FUCK UP i came to watch a vid of the typhoon - the most agile strike fighter on the planet. yes F22 has stealth we all know how usefull that feture is when bombing caves -_- now fuck off and comment somewhere else.
@planefreak3 right course it is WATCH THE FUCKING VIDEO. it tells youthe typhoon is more manoeverable. Also typhoon top speed 2475mph Raptor topspeed 2185mph. Also the typhoon has a much more advanced interface. And has helmet mounted sensors.
The F-22 does not have helmet mounted targeting system. At long rage the raptor would literally destroy the typhoon. Within about 25-30 miles the typhoon would stand a brilliant chance and i think it would come down to pilots skill and their G-resistance.
The comment/reply you made is so typical of kind made by one of those small, jeoluse Limey prick. You cannot stand being confronted by the truth that the Raptor IS superior to the Tyhpoon so you try to belitte the Raptor's superiority by making a lame-ass comment about the usefullness of stealth in bombing caves.
talking of jealous, you're on a eurofighter video, shouting about how your country has a better plane. if you thought it was true you wouldn't feel the need to say it.
did i say you weren't allowed? i'm sure there aren't any rules on it. i just made an observation. usually when people feel the need to tell everyone how great something is, it's because they would like it to be true, but they don't really believe it is.
the only person i have heard talking about the f22 and the eurofighter, and who has actually flown them said that the eurofighter is better than anything he has flown. and he was american.
Well, I just happened to observed a fallacy in your reasoning. And guess what, for every "expert" that you can point out who state the Typhoon is superior to the Raptor, I can point out another "expert" who states the Raptor is superior Typhoon.
The Raptor has never been used for bombing mission although it has basic bombing capability. The caves that have been bombed by the U.S. military in Afganistan and Pakastine have been carried out by F-15s, F-16s, A-10s and Drones.
Until you get your facts straight, don't comment and reply anymore here.
I think the only fighter aircraft better than the Typhoon are the F-22, F-35 when it comes into service and possibly the Su-35 although that could be debatable, to compare an F16 or F15, Mig 29, Su-27, Tornado etc to a Typhoon there is no contest as has been proven before, look it up.
Man, Moment n machine. U need 3 aspects to win a dogfight. Red Baron was an ace with inferior fighter, Britishs were flying wooden spitfires n beat the German with fw109s, again Britishs flying subsonic Harriers and beat Argentines flying with Mirages. Isrealis flying Mirages were unbeatable in mid East shooting down MiG21s, which were the most advanced fighter at that time. History has proven it. Well trained pilots, competitive machine, n a small oppotunity window. That's how aces were made.
I like the last part... when all these developmental increase in speed and maneuverability will overwhelm the pilot's capability to control them. The faster and maneuverable they can go, the more the G-forces it can obtain...
Can the human pilot keep up? Time will tell when all development for fighter planes will stop and a new type of super weapon will be resorted into...
Quite scary...
riflebore 3 months ago
F22 and EF! The ultimate air superiority alliance!
riflebore 3 months ago
idk y british buying us aircrafts when they have their own,maybe they fail.
ahgoon69er 3 months ago
The nerve of this guy and his inflatable pants :p
MHSClarinetsTV 4 months ago
eurofightersucks, the f-22 f-16 and f-15 are WAY better, and i'm english
everythingman987 5 months ago
The typhoon only needs 300 meters of runway in order to take off. The typhoon is a modern interpretation of the F-16. A small and extremely agile fighter plane. I hope they produce a version, which may take off and land on aircraft carriers. Thrust vectoring could additionally improve the performance. I hope the JSF F35 is cancelled.
bhigr 6 months ago
Does the suit come with a G-string??
fistman4 8 months ago
one thing i don't like about Americans is there reference to an aircraft or aeroplane as a plane or airplane
WhoDaresWins08 8 months ago
F-22, despite being stealthy, will need its radar on to detect an enemy, those radar waves can be detected by RWR systems and that gives away its position. Also, modern IRST like typhoon's can detect things like F22 at 50 miles. So the stealth advantage isn't all that.
parthsna 8 months ago
@parthsna F-22 can detect enemy aircraft over 200 miles away. The Eurofighter is a really great machine has everything, it's one of my favorites but the only thing missing is stealth, that delta wing would show up on radar like a KC-135
aandc2005 7 months ago
@aandc "that delta wing would show up on radar like a KC-135"
What ur not taking into account is the EF's Active Cancellaion my friend as you are stuck in your own paradigm (VLO). Advanced Electrical Warfare Systems such as AC recieve, distort and then send the signal back slightly out of tone thus hiding the jet & is not effected by adverse weather. EF also has PIRATE tech that detects the heat that a jet makes as it moves thru the sky. The nose is a dead give away. Research the EF's tech
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@TheARMAProductions Active cancellation is not something that's unique to the Eurofighter. Just about every modern fighter aircraft has it. They've even fitted these systems on MiG-21 Bisons. So relatively speaking, that technology doesn't add stealth compared to any other 4++ or 5th generation fighter, which are also equipped with it. The delta wing design and canards as well as the external weapons are all detectable with AESA radar.
AcesHighTrooper69 6 months ago
@aandc2005 Jets such as the B-2 have been using variations of AC for years. Hiding the jet electronically is more relaibale than traditional VLO and especially in adverse weather conditions. Another limitation of the F-22 and it's VLO is the need for internal weapon bays. This means the F-22 will be using the new AIM120D instead of the more powerful ram jet missile METEOR (£1.000,000 per unit). The METEOR missile is being accomodated by BAE for use on the F-35 which is good news mind you
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@TheARMAProductions You must know something that a lot of the top dogs don't. European countries are investing lots of money in the F-35, which uses VLO technology. The Russians and the Chinese are also developing 5th generation aircraft with stealth. A pair of jury-rigged VLO choppers were able to fly from Afghanistan deep into Pakistan (30 miles from the border with India) and close to the capital without being detected and Pakistan has a pretty decently equipped military.
AcesHighTrooper69 6 months ago
@Aces Not really. It should be obvious that radar/infa red technology catches up VLO capabilities. European countries have been pressured into buying the F-35 as with the Dutch (altho I believe they have canx the order due to money). This is what the arms industry is mate. Obama for example tried his best to get the Indians to go for the F-18/F-16 in the recent Indian MRRCA deal. The UK has invested allot into the F-35 as we are tier 1 partners but keeping both philospohies on the table is best
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@TheARMAP Infra red tech isn't unique to the EF. IRST has been around since the 70s. Yet, the Russians and the Chinese are still developing stealth aircraft. Just because stealth isn't 100% fool proof doesn't mean it doesn't provide SOME advantage. A VLO aicraft is still far less detectable than an aircraft that lights up easily on radar. That makes a difference in combat. The EF is 4th generation AC, most countries have that "philosophy on the table"
AcesHighTrooper69 6 months ago
@AcesHighTrooper69 I never said infa red was unique to the EF. it's been around for years but PIRATE hasn't. PIRATE is new to EF.
"These articles are all speculation"
The problem is that our entire argument/debate is speculation. How many jets has the F-22 shot down? How many the EF? When have they ever gone up against each other? etc. I hear on YT that the EF has defeatd the F-22, then vica versa, then the Rafale has beaten F-22, then vica versa etc lolz.
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@AcesHigh They are working to fit the METEOR missile internally into the F-35 which is cool though. And we will fit the infar red PIRATE technology (Stealth killer tech) into it. We can detect the heat of a jet from 150 miles out with this. Jets produce allot of heat as they move through the sky. Not just the engine but the nose itself and it's this which can be detected. Think about it...when everyone has VLO...how are they going to detect each other? Technology develops...it doesn't stop
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@TheARMAProductions Yes technology does advance. But VLO still confers an advantage over non-VLO aircraft. A stealth aircraft is still much harder to detect than a completely non-stealth aircraft, which can be detected by conventional radar as well as passive tracking systems. IRST is not something that's unique to the EF. While it may reduce the advantage of stealth, it is clearly still an advantage enough for the UK, Russia and China to invest billions in stealth tech.
AcesHighTrooper69 6 months ago
@TheARMAProductions As you said, technology advances. There are next-gen A2A missiles coming down the pipeline for the Raptor as well.
AcesHighTrooper69 6 months ago
@AcesHigh The next gen missiles for the USAF is the AIM120D I believe but this cannot compete with RAM jet propulsion. Conventional missiles use a 1 stage rocket system allowing kenetic energy to take it to it's target. The missile looses energy as it approaches the outer limits of it's range envelope which makes it easy for fighters to evade the missile. RAM jet sucks in air keeping it at Mach 4.0 for at guranteed 100 Km.
watch?v=j8KOPzLbdF0
METEOR = 2.5 times more expensive than AIM120D
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@Aces Pakistan may have a fairly decent equipped military (US hand me downs mainly) but they do not have the level of radar/infar red technology compared to high tech nations such as the UK. We were able to detect VLO over 10 years ago:
w w w . theregister . co . uk/2001/06/20/stealth_detection_system_disappears/
Nowadays we have this:
w w w . selex-sas . com/EN/Common/files/SELEX_Galileo/Products/PIRATE _ dsh . pdf
Remove spaces mate
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@AcesHighTrooper69 Not to mention that as soon as a jet switches on it's radar....the game is up anyway. Sneaking up on Pakistani space cadets is not the same as trying to penetrate a high tech nations airspace where high tech radar/infa red/missiles will be used/fired back :)
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@TheARMAProductions The game is up for the Typhoon and other 4th generation fighters even before they turn on their radars. All the things that can be used to detect the F-22 are orders of magnitude easier to use in detecting the EF. Plus, modern air combat is a team sport. The F-22 may never have to turn its radar on because it will likely be working with other F-22s, electronic warfare aircraft and AWACS. Stealth is better than no stealth.
AcesHighTrooper69 6 months ago
@AcesHigh In fact, the F-22 is only able to communicate with other F-22's and not any other jets but what your saying is all theory. If the VLO capabilities of the F-22 are taken away then it doesn't stand a chance against a high G jet such as EF which is carrying RAM jet propelled missiles mate. This is why the USAF dares to use the F-22 apart from in airshows. It doesn't work and needs more development. Whilst China/Russia try to catch up...we are developing 6th gen:
watch?v=eITS4R11kGY
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@TheARMAProductions Except, most articles out there cite the Raptor as having superior instantaneous and sustained turn rates to the EF. It can supercruise to a higher speed (the EF can only supercruise when running clean) and it has thrust vectoring. You act like stealth is the only advantage the Raptor has. And F-22s can communicate with other USAF aircraft, just not with other NATO aircraft, which is why they were kept out of Libya.
AcesHighTrooper69 6 months ago
@Ace "Except, most articles out there cite the Raptor as having superior instantaneous and sustained turn rates to the EF".
Please refer me to these articles as so far you have not posted a single one. Your semi correct about the EF only being able to SC when running clean (it can hold a few missiles) but this is what the new TVN engines are for (hence the EF project is still ongoing). but even with these engines...let's see the F-22 do this:
watch?v=HFsM_61UJuM
6 missile/4gbu/3 tanks
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@TheARMAProductions Google is your friend. It's not hard to type it up. You will find numerous articles even on EF fan pages that say that the EF's instantaneous and sustained turned rates are lower than that of the Raptor. Of course, the Raptor's true specs are classified. As for that vid, very solid maneuvering, but nothing that a lot of 4th generation jets can't do. The EF has inferior maneuvering capabilities to the Su-30MKI, and the RAF has even admitted this.
AcesHighTrooper69 6 months ago
@AcesHighTrooper69 Google is a double edged weapon because most of what you get is fanboy opinions. It's the same deal with the officialy BAE and Lockheed sites. they are trying to promote their technology so neither can be trusted. I have not seen any 4th gen or even 5th gen jets do what that EF did with 6 missiles, 4 GBU's and 3 tanks. If I am wrong then post a video.
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@TheARMAProductions You're right, Google is a double-edged sword. But here are the facts: the USA has had way more modern combat experience than any country in the world. The USA also has more money to play with than any other country in the world. These things matter a whole lot and you'd be kidding yourself if you think they don't. So at the end of the day, when even the UK's MoD rates the EF as vastly inferior to the F-22, I'd probably agree with them.
AcesHighTrooper69 6 months ago
@AcesHighTrooper69 Nah...the J-20 is like the PAK-50 mate. They are bluffing like they have done for the last 5 decades. I do not fear jets that can't even barrell roll and are just put out there to try and warn us off (parnoia). Even if they do turn out to be real....by the time they have them operational the US/UK will have 6th gen unmanned jets
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@TheARMAProductions You yourself said never to underestimate anyone, my friend. I really hope you're right. But the big challenge for the future is a rising China. As much as people may bash the West, I still hope we remain atop the world order. We are still far more benevolent than China is and a world with the USA, UK, Germany etc. on top is better off than a world with China calling the shots.
AcesHighTrooper69 6 months ago
@AcesHigh I have allot of opinions on China and the basic issue is a rising Chinese consumer class. At the moment, China relies heavily upon building then exporting Western tech back to us but they are tryign to move into their own hig quality brands and if they can then we will get trouble. At the moment...we can just canx trade and China would collapse like a pack of cards. At the moment, China, Russia, India and Brazil do not have a single brand between them (Rolls Royce, Microsoft etc)
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@AcesHighTrooper69 Same deal with Russia. 90% of their economy depends on energy exports to the EU. Any funny bizz from them and we canx trade. That takes out 90% of their economy within a week or two. India is the same with the service sector. it'sa mainly IT in india providing services to western companies. Believe me mate....the West has things on lockdown. There's more than one way to skin a cat :)
The real danger to us is mass immigration from low IQ'd 3rd world nations
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@AcesHighTrooper69 Here's just one example of Western dominantion. Let's look at the jet engine industry for commercial jets. Rolls Royce owns 40% of the market with the other 60 % being owned by GE and P&W. The USA owns more or less everything when it comes to computer hardware with the germans owning the car industry. China were in fact caught spying on French car makers Renault recently. In my own opinion....I believe there will be a big war should the balance of power shift too much
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@AcesHighTrooper69 EF is inferior to the SU-30MKi when at low speeds due to the delta wing config but is more agile at super sonic speeds and this is where the EF will be flying most of it's mission. Why do you think India chose the more expensive EF over the Migs? It wasn#t because the cheaper Migs were better. It's the supersonic manouverability that seperates the EF from all other jets. If you read the Indian report you'll see that no other jet could match it at super sonic speeds
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@TheARMAProductions Yes, but most dogfights occur at subsonic speeds. At longer distances, the planes' maneuverability doesn't really make much of a difference when you're dealing with missiles that can pull way more gs than any human-piloted aircraft ever can. It's all about ECMs etc. at that point.
AcesHighTrooper69 6 months ago
@AcesHighTrooper69 I found out something that may interest you and I learn't it from an American nuclear scientist. There's no g limit for humans. It's actually the time in which the body can sustain the G. So for example...
18g's may be say...2 seconds, 36 g's 1 second etc (I'll get the exact data if you wish). So we can pull 100 G's for a split second. That may not sound like allot but that kind of acceleration would get you 100 miles in a second lol
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@TheARMAProductions For all the talk of the EF's incredible maneuverability, at the end of the day it hasn't demonstrated any maneuvers that can't be done by a lot of 4th generation aircraft. Heck, it hasn't even done the Pugachev's Cobra yet. Of course, that doesn't have real utility in combat situations, but it does demonstrate fantastic AOA.
AcesHighTrooper69 6 months ago
@Aces If these other 4th gen jets can perform like EF then please explain why India has chosen the more expensive EF? I have read the MMRCA report and know the difference. The EF totally outclassed all jets including the Rafale. The term 'generation' is just a sales pitch coined by Lockheed Martin, On paper, the EF is more 5th gen than the F-35. Lets look at the facts...F-35 has no supercruise, low speed, low agility, low payload, low range. All it has is frontal LO
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@TheARMAProductions I don't disagree that the EF is a fine bird and it is better than most other 4th gen jets, but it is still a 4th gen jet. It can supercruise, but not in actual combat when it will be carrying munitions. Sure, the new engines might change performance some, but they still can't address the problem of air resistance and drag caused by external weapons. Obviously, a plane carrying its weapons internally won't have to deal with these issues.
AcesHighTrooper69 6 months ago
@AcesHighTrooper69 But the EF will come in variants. So the multi role variant will have these issues like you say but the fighter variant carrying A to A missiles only won't. The METEOR missile has been designed specifically for stealth/drag reduction. We will have to wait until the final block is maed I guess before we can really judge.
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@AcesHigh U wanna hope your correct about the F-22 because it's clear to see just how much better the EF is over the teens. EF just knocked the F-16 and F-18 out of the Indian MMRCA deal and will probably clinch the 12 billion $ deal (the Indians are amazed by it). This is why the USAF insists it has a working F-22 in it's arsenal so as to give it an edge over other fighters but you will need to re open the project & continue to develop. So far allI have seen is it operate at airshows.
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@TheARMAProductions So the EF is better than planes that first entered service in the 70s-early 80s? Fantastic! And if you're going to go by what the Indians think, then maybe you should read what they had to say after the Indradhanush exercises with the Typhoon. They praised the aircraft but weren't exactly blown away by it. In fact, they though the same Su-30MKIs that got waxed by F-15Cs at Red Flag did pretty well against the Typhoon.
AcesHighTrooper69 6 months ago
@AcesHighTrooper69 "So the EF is better than planes that first entered service in the 70s-early 80s? Fantastic"
Well this is what happens when you put these 70's/80's jets up against the EF in a bid to win a contract isn't it matey :)
As for red flag, the EF had CAPTOR radar back then as it was the T1 block (sold off). CAPTOR has a wide search band but is very observable when switched on. T3A block as AESA Ceasar radar and EF's have pissed all over the F-15. Feel free to ask me for links
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@AcesHighTrooper69 Coming back to the F-15...this is where the EF T1 sucks. It has weak CAPTOR radar. Even the F-18/F16/Mirages etc can take that out at BVR but it has nothing to do with the airframe and everything to do with the radar. AESA is far superior but EF T3A as a hybrid radar system called AESA Ceasar which basically combines the best bits from CAPTOR and then mixes it with AESA. We sold these T1's off to the Saudi's.
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@Aces Also, Red Flag tests are not pitting NATO jets against each other. The point of them is to develop tactics together but I can play this game too. F-15 humiliation to EF:
w w w . flightglobal . com/blogs/the-dewline/2010/01/eurofighter-boasts-usaf-f-15-k . html
h t t p : // eucitizens.eu/Forum/index . php?topic=11.0
The second defeat was by a two seater trainer variant of the EF against 2 F-15's
You can't complain that I compared odler US jets when you are trying to yourself
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@AcesHighTrooper69 Think of it logically...according to this American made program the EF can sustain 9 g indefinitely where as the F-15/F-16 can only do it for a second. This basically means the EF can just pull back on the stick and get behind it (as is what happened in the below links). When it comes to BVR warfare then there won't be allot in these jets as much of the technology (radar/missiles etc) is the same.
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@TheARMAProductions It's not American made. It's Canadian....listen to the accent, there are subtle differences. Most combat these days is BVR. More than 2/3s of the kills in the Gulf War were BVR and most of the WVR kills were only to confirm whether the target was an enemy or friend. Since then, BVR tech has only gotten better. I acknowledge that the EF is probably better than the F-16 and most F-15s (w/o upgrades), but it's not by a huge margin. The F-22 is in a different league.
AcesHighTrooper69 6 months ago
@Aces You sure? I have read articles that suggest the US AIM120C (which is a good missile) has a success ratio of around 50% against the Arabs? But ofc...BVW is important as that's the first shot. I want to know why the F-22 is in a different league. The radar is the same. the missiles the same (until METEOR and AIM120D come out) etc. The proof is in the pudding my friend. I'm not saying either jet is better as we won't know until we see them fight. We are in that gre area as most is classified
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@TheARMAProductions VLO does make a difference even though you insist it doesn't. If IRST were enough to negate stealth, then the F-117, the B-2, the F-22 and the F-35 would never have been pursued. The Chinese and Ruskies wouldn't be building stealth jets either. As for the Gulf War, you can find a documentary about that right here on Youtube. 2/3s of A2A kills were BVR. The EF pilot even said in this vid, "no self respecting fighter pilot should get in a dogfight."
AcesHighTrooper69 6 months ago
@Aces To clarify my posistion on VLO (which is what you initially responded too)....
I said it's effective against low tech nations meaning it has it's strengths although it can be countered and nations are constantly working to do this. The question is....is it cheaper to develop VLO or counter? Europe chose to counter but it remains to be seen on how effective they are. I don't disagree on what your saying about BVR combat although that EF pilot also said you have to be ready for WVR combat
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@AcesHighTrooper69 I must say tho...respect for keeping it cool. Usually this kind of debate decends into virtual war by now lolz. We Brits have learn't not to understimate anything or anyone.
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@TheARMAProductions At the end of the day, the EF and the Raptor will most likely be fighting on the same side, so a lot of this is moot. But I do think the USAF would whup that limey ass if it ever came down to it ;) What we have to worry about are the next generation of Flanker variants, the J-20 and the Sukhoi T-50.
AcesHighTrooper69 6 months ago
@AcesHighTrooper69 If the US has a jet that can take out the EF then it's the F-22 but we will never get to see how good the F-22 is because the USAF isn't going to use it. They are waiting for the F-35 and then 6th gen jets
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@TheARMAProductions And since we're talking about export customers, it's interesting that the Saudis, who purchased the Eurofighter, later thought it necessary to place an order for a bunch of new F-15s in addition to upgrading the ones they already had in service. Why would they do that if the EF really was all that? There are far cheaper ways to appease Uncle Sam if that was the aim here.
AcesHighTrooper69 6 months ago
@AcesHighTrooper69 Dude..the EF T1 that the Saudi's brought is a rip off because it has CAPTOR radar. At BWR, most US jets have the edge there. Your making a mistake if you think that's the EF we use tho. With upgrades...most jets will be about the same as BVR warfare is electronical. Where EF has the edge is in WVR combat.
T3a EF is even getting new wngines as well as 3 dimensional TVN:
watch?v=zpNa4eprMf4
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@AcesHigh It's a myth that TVN is for agility. What it's actually for is improving performance when in super cruise mode as it saves fuel. The new Ej200 engine has an increase of 10 0 15 % in power as well as 3D TVN. EF was the only jet in the MMRCA to demonstrate SC and the F-35 doesn't even have it. Look at the F-35....it cannot hit mach 2.0, cannot super cruise, has a low weapons paylod, low agility, low range and isn't even fully stealthed. it has LO (frontal stealth) rather than VLO
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@TheARMAProductions These articles are all speculation. We don't really know the details of what they can and cannot detect. That being said, even if it were possible to detect stealth, it is still a worthwhile thing to have, which is why the UK and other nations are investing billions towards developing and procuring the F-35 and the Chinese as well as Russians are developing stealth aircraft. AC has some use, but that's a pretty standard feature on most recent 4th generation aircraft.
AcesHighTrooper69 6 months ago
@AcesHighTrooper69 This is the very nature of this debate. You can't make the claims you do about VLO and then say 'These articles are all speculation' when I post an actual link my friend. The truth about these jets will only be exposed in real battle. What is a fact is that the F-22 program has been cancelled. Assuming the F-22 is any good you still have to update it constantly to keep it ahead of developing radar/infa red tech.
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
@TheARMAProductions The EF program has also been "cancelled." The number of orders have been significantly reduced. It's tough times and money is tight all around right now. And to say any weapons platform needs constant updating is a moot point. Neither the F-22 or the EF have been proven in battle (unless you count flying a few sorties over Libya as being "proven"). By that logic, the F-15 is the king since it's got 100+ kills and 0 losses.
AcesHighTrooper69 6 months ago
@AcesHighTrooper69 "The EF program has also been "cancelled."
No. The numbers have been reduced but the project still has funds for development hence the forth coming T3A block:
watch?v=zpNa4eprMf4
India's money will help even more here. Cancelled is not reducing the numbers but the canx of all funds to the project for upgrades. Look at the jets the F-15 has taken on tho....Sand monkeys with no missiles. I'd agree that the F-15 is a legend but to compare it to a modern jet is stupid
TheARMAProductions 6 months ago
the f 22 can blow u out the sky before u are even no he is there while u are doing circles in your mamoverible plane
kirbyroxy 9 months ago
@kirbyroxy The only thing the F-22 can do is photo shoots in the US lol
TheARMAProductions 9 months ago 8
@TheARMAProductions what? the F-22 is MUCH stealthier than the eurofighter, can super cruse faster, has a faster max speed, has a higher max takeoff weight, has equal electronics, equal service ceiling, and only costs about $20million more than the eruofighter. the F-22 is the most well rounded fighter on the planet, and will remain that way for decades. the eurofighter is good but is just not comparable to the F-22, the F-22 is a masterpiece.
hotpocketpoison 3 months ago
@hotpocketpoison EF has infar red PIRATE stealth killing technology. This detects the very heat that a jet makes as it moves through the sky. The F-22 has a slightly lower power to weight ratio but has a slightly faster top speed. Where EF falls down is in that it won't get AESA radar until next year. EF will be carrying RAM jet METEOR missiles too. Something the F-22 can't carry unless it does it externally in which case it will void the VLO capabilities.
watch?v=KaoYz90giTk
TheARMAProductions 3 months ago
@hotpocke Also, because the EF project hasn't been cancelled they are still developing it. Tranche 3 is the final block which will have better engines (better SC) and 3d TVN. My comment wasn't incorrect mind you. F-22 is kept in a shed/airshows where as EF has been to war. U can't compare the jets. We are simply civvies with a limited amount of real data on these jets. You get yours from programs like Future dogfights lol. We can only go by what we see. And what we see is EF actually fighting...
TheARMAProductions 3 months ago
@hotpocketpoison There's no point in comparing EF against F-22 because I can't see them ever fighting. What should be looked at is how they would complient each other. Do not think that high tech nations such as the UK can't detect stealth. We've been able to do it since at least 2000. We do it via infa red now. The PIRATE system will probably be installed into the F-35 which is good. But keep in mind the F-35 is allot slower than these jets and cannot SC (yet it's somehow 5th generation lolz).
TheARMAProductions 3 months ago
@hotpock The EF project didn't want VLO as this would mean internal weapon bays in turn meaning no ability to carry RAM jet missiles. Jets like EF hide themselves electronically via what's called Active Cancellaton. This tech recieves, distorts then sends the signal back slightly out of phase thus hiding the jet. AC is not vulnerable to adverse weather conditions like VLO is. The B2 uses a form of this tech. The EW cloud is around 30/40 miles on EF. Look all this up. Don't just watch the TV
TheARMAProductions 3 months ago
@TheARMAProductions the F-22 is also equipted with radar cancelling capabilities, the thing is, it doesnt always work, just like plasma stealth it is only good against certain wave lengths. the F-22 has enough systems in place to protect it from almost every form of wave length.
watch?v=RgiThPPnIcY
that stupid washington post video is thrown around WAY to much. go to the links in this video and see that everything in that vid you posted was wrong, Rachel Madow is a moron. and internal-
hotpocketpoison 3 months ago
@hotpocketpoison That Washington Post vid is an exaggeration although I posted it due to what u said about the cost of maintenance mate. The F-22 is very expensive to maintain. As for these technologies, this is where we hit an intellectual wall. The only people who will know the range at which a EF can lock on to say...an F-22 will be BAE & Lockheed. This is why I tend to stay away from debating what tech is better. It's basically VLO vs high tech missiles but it's good to have both approaches
TheARMAProductions 3 months ago
@TheARMAProductions weapon bays are good for almost every missile,you wont always be carrying the uber expensive scramjet missiles, hence having internal weapon bays are good for the more common missiles like the AIM-7,9,and 120. internal weapon bays reduce RCS and reduce drag,making the aircraft stealthier,faster, and more fuel efficient. and the F-35 is>NOT< an air superiority fighter,they would NOT be sent to engage air threats,they are MULTIROLE FIGHTERS(with STOVL variants)! and the combat
hotpocketpoison 3 months ago
@TheARMAProductions history of the EF does NOT involve any air-air engagements. by your logic that must mean the F-15 is FAR superior to the EF,F-22,T-50,AND J-20 because it has been in more battles??? that is completely asinine. the F-22 has been in simulated dogfights against F-14,15,16,and 18 and has racked up a K/D ratio of 144-0 collectively. the same can not be said for the eurofighter. i am NOT saying the EF is a bad plane at all, but it is just not comparable to the F-22.
hotpocketpoison 3 months ago
@hotpocketpoison You cannot fit RAM jet missiles inside internal weapon bays without modding the Missile. They are probably going to mod the METEOR missile for internal use on the F-35 tho. F-22 will be using the AIM120D when it's finished but this missile cannot compete with RAM jet propulsion. Rada/infa red advances all the time. This is why Europe decided against VLO as they took the idea that it's cheaper to counter. It's yet to be seen who is correct.
TheARMAProductions 3 months ago
@hotpocketpoison Believe me...don't get your info from this Red Flag BS on YT. The French claim the Rafale beat the EF but here's what really happened (according to a French pilot) lol
h t t p : / /imageshack . us/f/339/afm010002 . jpg/
Red Flag is not about pitting NATO jets against each other. it's about developing tactics for joint opps in the future and these 'kills' come when the other jet is simulating the SU's as part of Air Red. YT fanboys have taken this RF out of context.
TheARMAProductions 3 months ago
@hotpocketpoison When a jet such as EF/F-22 plays the part of Air Red in Red Flag, the capabilities are downgraded so as to simulate the Mig 29/SU Flanker (the bulk of the Russia air force). Idiots on the net then think a jet such as Rafale has beaten the F-22/EF lol. The French refused to play the part of Air Red (French pilots own words) as they had one eye on exporting the Rafale and so used the RF simulations as a publicity stunt. The MMRCA technical evaluation corrected all this nonsense.
TheARMAProductions 3 months ago
@TheARMAProductions actually, the F-22 as of 2010 only needs about 10 hours of maintenance per flight hour, and is about the same to maintain as the F-15(thanks to the advanced computers that tell the technicians what is wrong before it gets worse). and i totally agree with your statement on the Red flag comments, people just throw things like that around without researching them. the EF IS far superior to the Rafael but the Rafael wasnt actually designed to be an air superiority fighter. it-
hotpocketpoison 3 months ago
@TheARMAProductions was designed to be a carrier based multirole fighter, and if i were a general i would be pretty eager to get my hands on it because i think it offers more bang for your buck than either the EF or the F-22, but when comparing these planes one on one the Rafale is inferior. in a high speed dogfight i think the EF would have the edge over the F-22 but at low speeds the F-22 would win because of its thrust vectoring, and long range would be dominated by whichever fighter could-
hotpocketpoison 3 months ago
@hotpocketpoison UK & Germany already have the GR4 which is why they wanted a pure interceptor. Also, Typhoons AESA radar will be much more capable than Rafale because Typhoon has the larger radar aperture which allows an AESA with at least 1300 T/R modules. Rafale's 550mm aperture no more than 850 T/R modules and this is a huge difference in terms of range and tracking capability.
TheARMAProductions 3 months ago
All this is what makes NATO so strong. We cover all doctrines because NATO is essentially different minds working on the same problem where as China is one nation one culture. This is in fact the key to the Wests dominance. You have the Americans working on one area, the Brits on another, the French on another etc. This covers redundancy. So if for example...the Chinese found away to counter VLO....NATO would still have a capability. I would go with F-22 being better but I'm not sure how much by
TheARMAProductions 3 months ago
@TheARMAProductions The F-22 has been cancelled though . So its a moot point.
LCStreetPhotographer 2 months ago
Yeah. Even the ones they have built were recently grounded again & have been barred from flying above 25,000 feet since Jan this year. I was explaining that one doctrine is not the only doctrine. Europe went down the road of high tech RAM jet missiles and sensors such as PIRATE to counter VLO. Assuming a VLO jet gets a lock on to EF first and launches a BVRAAM, this will alert EF to the posistion of the enemy jet and EF's AESA will jam the BVRAAM. Pirate can then detect heat at 60 miles or so
TheARMAProductions 2 months ago
@TheARMAProductions shoot first, and by all accounts, i think the F-22 would win, but we cant tell that just yet. they are BOTH excellent planes.
hotpocketpoison 3 months ago
@hotpocketpoison Yeah The Rafale is better at low speeds & low altitudes thanks to it's canards being closer together. It can even pull 11 g for a second or two. Where the EF leaves it is in intercept capabilities as it's canards are further apart giving it more agility at higher speeds/altitudes. The Rafale was unable to demonstrate any level of super cruise capability in the MMRCA evaluation. It all comes down to requirements which is why Dassault split from the project.
TheARMAProductions 3 months ago
@hotpocketpoison The Rafale is a backup option should there be any issues with the F-35. I really hope the F-35 is a success because they will look pretty flash on our new carriers in 2019. Boeing and MBDA are working to accomodate the RAM jet missile METEOR internally into the F-35 as well. The Argies won't like that one bit haha
TheARMAProductions 3 months ago
@TheARMAProductions I actually think that the Rafale is the best one of the best looking fighters anywhere. But, stealth does have it's advantages...
SDIR5678 1 month ago
@SDIR5678 The EF is the superior air dominace fighter, it has more TR modules giving it's AESA radar alot more power, is faster giving it's missiles more energy, can fly at 45,000 feet with a full payload, can supersruise and can sustain high g for longer periods, The Rafale is the better ground attack fighter. Here's a non fanboy technical evaluation carried out by the MMRCA:
h t t p : / / w w w . defence.pk/forums/india-defence/138267-laymans-analysis-our-last-two-mmrca-contenders . html
TheARMAProductions 1 month ago
PS: Rafale was designed as a multi role carrier born jet. EF was designed as an air dominace fighter. Rafale cannot fly above 45,000 feet, cannot supercruise with munitions & is slower than EF. The higher and faster you go, the more kenetic energy you get on your missiles. A jet would have to use reheat just to be able to catch a mach 1.3 supercruising EF. A jet only has around 2 minutes of reheat. Where Rafale is better lies in the ground attack role but this is because it was designed to be so
TheARMAProductions 1 month ago
@SDIR5678 I really shoould of read your comment correctly before posting lol. You said 'best looking'. It's strange because from some angles I think the EF looks best but from others I think it looks ugly. In my opinion, older jets like the F-15/F-16 are far better looking than both the EF, F-22 & Rafale
TheARMAProductions 1 month ago
@TheARMAProductions I was referring to the Rafale as better looking in comparison to the F-35.
SDIR5678 1 month ago
@SDIR5678 I see, Yeah it's because the F-35 is VLO based. F-35C should be a very good jet. It will be able to slew it's missiles via 360 degrees and will have a similiar HD Helmet to the EF one I sent you. The pilot won't have to turn his jet to shoot. He can just look at the target and tell the system to fire
TheARMAProductions 1 month ago
well, I make general assumptions sometimes for example the richest country(USA) makes the best planes and it just so happens they have the best pilots.
cfesel 10 months ago
Once the f-22 is out of sight you're pretty much finished.
cfesel 10 months ago
@cfesel that makes no sense. Another product of the american education system
mr9396 10 months ago 6
@mr9396 what a wanker son
chamberlandfill 7 months ago
@chamberlandfill. Spoken like a true faggot.
mr9396 7 months ago
The F 22 has just no competition
Chauvignoul 11 months ago
@Chauvignoul. oh, didn't realise you were and expert and flew every single plane that has every took to the skies, so could possible say such a statement.
mr9396 10 months ago
Serbia will buy the Typhoon !
ThePavles 1 year ago
This my favorite fighter jet.
The harrier was awesome also.
14 is another cool jet.
F16 is another great jet.
I also like that su-37 berkut
RTiger18 1 year ago
This plane got it's ass kicked in the UAE against rafales and raptors
what an expensive joke this plane is. It was meant to be an interceptor hence it's powerful engines but at the last minute the Brits decided they want to make it's an all around fighter. This plane is not comparable to any of the modern fighers it is a European farce
TheProjektcc 1 year ago
@TheProjektcc What happened in the UAE?
toweronepower 1 year ago
@toweronepower USA, French, and British airforces sent six of their fighters to UAE for combat training and mock dogfights. These fighters being 6 raptors, 6 rafales, and 6 eurofighters and 6 f16s
battles: Raptor v Typhoon, raptor vs Rafale, Rafale vs Typhoon. This is the first time the Raptors have taken part in such an exercise
The big surprise was when the Rafales dominated the f 16s 6-2 and RAF Typhoons 7-1
And gave the Raptors all it can handle with the F22 only able to lock on once
TheProjektcc 1 year ago
@TheProjektcc Well, good thing the French are on our side then, its gotta be a good thing really.
toweronepower 1 year ago
@toweronepower
Well the interesting thing is that the UAE are desperately looking for their next gen fighter to purchase but can't make a decision. And we also know that since it came into production the Rafale has been struggling to find a foreign buyer.
Could this have been "motivation" for the French jets to fight extremely ferocious?
maybe
I'm just glad the f22 didn't get crushed like the Typhoon did, considering how much that plane costs, it would have been devastating to our air force
TheProjektcc 1 year ago
@TheProjektcc I dont really think it would be devasting to either air force. maybe to the company that makes the aircraft.
toweronepower 1 year ago
@toweronepower
well that is the plane they will be piloting for the foreseeable future. The air force are the ones that set the requirements for the planes they want. It would be a major blow to them to know that they will be flying a plane that doesn't live up to their standards or hopes.
It doesn't really matter to the company especially after they've already gotten a contract they just produce the m and let the airforce make the best of them
TheProjektcc 1 year ago
@TheProjektcc As long as all these planes are as good or better than potential enemies aircraft is there really a problem? Are the pilots really going to be thinking that they are flying a piece of shit? Fuck if a Eurofighter pilot is feeling vulnerable in a war zone how will a crewman of a huge long range bomber or something feel?
toweronepower 1 year ago
@TheProjektcc Why is it I can only find this info on French sites. No CONFIRMED info re these results anywhere. And according to USAF sites , the Raptors did'nt get involved much...........strange dont you think. Latest Kill ratios released by the Fedaration of American Scientists give the following
F22 10:0, Rafale...1:1.......Typhoon 4.5:1................Hmmm.
SuperAncientmariner 1 year ago
@TheProjektcc: There's no reliable source anywhere for the outcome of the UAE. It all depends on what "source" you want to believe. It's obvious that no airforce wants to look inferior. Even just because of direct consequences for sales numbers, especially in today's bad economy problems all around the world.
The bold statements the French airforce make are as dishonest as all others' statements are.
Actual wars will show what the strengths and weaknesses of each plane are.
albedoshader 1 year ago
@albedoshader
actually the info comes from independent aviation news agencies NOT the french airforce
TheProjektcc 1 year ago
@TheProjektcc:
It has been confirmed that there were no BVR engagements between F-22 and Rafale.
It has been confirmed that there were no engagements between Rafale and Typhoon during ATLC.
It has been confirmed that Rafale and Typhoon met only during the pre ATLC CT phase, and then only when one aircraft was flying as Red Air.
albedoshader 1 year ago
@albedoshader: Rafale fought Typhoon emulating 'Flanker' or 'semi-Flanker', and Typhoon fought Rafale emulating 'Flanker' or 'semi-Flanker'. Rafale and Typhoon never flew against each other 'full up'.
It has been confirmed that the 'famous' Rafale victories over Typhoon were scored against tyro Typhoon pilots during the first week of their pre ATLC work up, and that the victories were all BVR using a weapon that Rafale can't actually carry in real life.
albedoshader 1 year ago
@albedoshader:
It has been confirmed that these were not the only meetings between the two types, and Eurofighter's contention that both sides enjoyed similar scores went unanswered and uncorrected by the Colonel. We can only assume, therefore, that such a statement is accurate.
It has been confirmed that Rafale did not detect any threats which a SEAD configured F-16CJ 'failed to see'.
Source: ATC
albedoshader 1 year ago
@albedoshader: The bold statements of a French lt. colonel (Grandclaudon) don't count as a reliable source for me. The same would go for any UK or German military person.
The setting of the "engagements" just tells a less enthusiastic but a more realistic and toned-down story. Selling these planes isn't about "Top-Gun" coolness but collection of useful information in special combat situations and a lot of money - on all sides.
albedoshader 1 year ago
@albedoshader Don't listen to the French claims m8. EF has just taken the lot of them out in the recent Indian MMRCA dog fights (which is why it now looks as tho India will by EF):
w w w . t r i b u n e i n d i a . c o m / 2 0 1 1 / 2 0 1 1 0 1 1 1 / m a i n 1 . h t m
Like you say, those engagements were BVR in 2009 but another factor to note is that the T1 EF back then had inferior radar and it still won't have the hybrid AESA/Captor until 2012. When it does it's be even better :)
TheARMAProductions 1 year ago
European partners? wtf!?
smith3451 1 year ago
If anyone tells you the EF2000 sucks or its not anything, laugh. The only plane in service that could challenge the EF2000 is the F-22
UltimateGohan2008 1 year ago
It is not stealth "and doesn't have to be." Right. But you cannot shoot what you cannot see. Vis, YF22 Raptor will kill you and you will not know what happened. He saw you but you did not see him. The Eurofighter has 40K lbs of thrust. The Raptor has 70K. This plane would loose miserably to the Raptor. Fortunately we are on the same side. Perhaps the Raptor could fly cover for you.
cazziedawg1 1 year ago
@cazziedawg1 FYI...your F22 is not invisible to modern Radar anyway...and If your F22 pilot turns his Radar on to locate the enemy...the whole fuckin world will see him coming..Like you said, you cant shoot what you cant see...and it works BOTH ways..not just one way. BTW...the EF also has a higher rate of climb than the F22..turns tighter at higher spedds....It has a better power to weight ratio and IR detection...Sorry to shatter your dream chum.
EnglishTurbines 1 year ago
@EnglishTurbines Still trolling with your fucking delusional bullshit, I see.
-"FYI...your F22 is not invisible to modern Radar anyway"
ghostofaflea.c om/archives/009743.html
-"If your F22 pilot turns his Radar on to locate the enemy...the whole fuckin world will see him coming."
Google AESA LPI, troll.
em745aa 1 year ago
-"BTW...the EF also has a higher rate of climb than the F22"
A fully-loaded F-22 taking off and pulling to the vertical hits a climb rate of over 61,000 ft/min. by ~FL-180. Can the EF match that, troll?
-"turns tighter at higher spedds"
Wrong again, troll. Not even the EF consortium makes this claim.
watch?v=k0CPPlFk4Yo
em745aa 1 year ago
-"It has a better power to weight ratio"
Wrong again, troll. The F-22's combat-loaded T/W is ~1.23:1. The EF's is ~1.09:1. The EF will also be WAY draggier and have a lower G-limit due to all that crap hanging under it.
-"and IR detection"
Wrong again, troll. Aside from the fact that the F-22's flat exhaust plumes dissipate quicker than round ones, the EF's exhaust cans stick out like sore thumbs from WAY more angles than the F-22's.
em745aa 1 year ago
-"Sorry to shatter your dream chum"
Only things shattered here, numbnuts, are your delusions. :)
em745aa 1 year ago
@em745aa Strange,,,,, the official rate of climb is still classified.
SuperAncientmariner 1 year ago
@SuperAncientmariner -"Strange,,,,, the official rate of climb is still classified"
About three years back, an F-22 pilot posted his "takeoff story" on the fencecheck forum, and let it slip (unintentionally, perhaps) that he hit 0.99 Mach at about 18,000 ft.
Mach 0.99 @ those altitudes translates to ~61k-62k ft/min.
Again, this was with full (internal) tanks and 8 missiles on board, and no special climb-enhancing "Rutowski" type profile. Just a straight pull to 90° immediately after takeoff.
em745aa 1 year ago
@em745aa That would explain it. I presume he was disciplined.
SuperAncientmariner 1 year ago
@SuperAncientmariner "I presume he was disciplined"
At the time he was under orders by the brass to act as the F-22's online PR man--to go on forums and talk about the F-22 with us geeks. And while he was still being mindful of OPSEC, his actions (unjustly) came under scrutiny by the OSI at one point, leading to his ceasing all online activities.
He was cleared of any wrongdoing, and AFAIK is still in command of the 90th FS at Elmendorf. The USAF clearly didn't think much of the whole thing.
em745aa 1 year ago
@em745aa I should'nt think they did lol Reminds me of when Yeager broke the sound barrier and someone published details. The FBI and CIA went in howling for blood and it turned out that the details of the plane had previously been released by the USAF some 2 months previously.
SuperAncientmariner 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@em745aa FYI...your F22 is not invisible to modern Radar anyway...and If your F22 pilot turns his Radar on to locate the enemy...the whole fuckin world will see him coming..Like you said, you cant shoot what you cant see...and it works BOTH ways..not just one way. BTW...the EF also has a higher rate of climb than the F22..turns tighter at higher spedds....It has a better power to weight ratio and IR detection...Sorry to shatter your dream chum. 2 days ago
EnglishTurbines 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Ooo americans dont like any competition to US air superiority, americans on every eurofighter vid slagging it off and bringing up the F22.
take it as a compliment, if they thought it was shite they wouldnt be here slagging it off. take a look on tornado vids, no americans on there slagging it off cus it aint no threat. basic psychology.
ChuckMamuck 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
That would require a complete redesign of the aircraft though unfortunately, and I dont feel like paying any more taxes to pay for it. Americans only love the F22 because its a symbol of power despite it being a political ploy to get america back into work. Im surprised no one posted the video of that news report stating how the f22 couldn't operate if it was raining, how the fuck do you expect to fly over europe and NOT encounter precipitation?
pinkeyebeast 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Once an F22 is detected you arn't any better off in it that a Eurofighter Typhoon.
Stealth Eurofighter Typhoon would be brilliant!
Mthtmty 1 year ago
You mean right before the 4th generation Euro fighter blows up..lol..
ClarksonsinUSA 1 year ago
w8 preston air base. Preston is not an airbase lols
TheFighterpilot93 1 year ago
True m8 True. The pilot knows more than the normal human being.
TheFighterpilot93 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
There are so many information blackout, F22 might turn out to be an expensive dud like F117A =D
humpingbird 1 year ago
wait till the nuke missiles fly wankers no plane ships or etc etc will kiss and protect your ass.
don't you agree you countries with weapons of mass destruction?????????????
tonygustini 2 years ago
Hey, does anyone find it strange how there's no word about non Western planes (Russian)?
Wonder what are they aiming at..
Nice show though
vytolutis 2 years ago
Probably becuase the planes you are thinking of are a long long ways from production, not to mention service.
SlyNine 1 year ago
Hahahahah preston airbase. like preston marlo
19dayslater 2 years ago
lol Preston airbase.
NIGH8R88 2 years ago
for fuck sake. there are so many american people her moaning about how 'amazing' the F22 is. SHUT THE FUCK UP i came to watch a vid of the typhoon - the most agile strike fighter on the planet. yes F22 has stealth we all know how usefull that feture is when bombing caves -_- now fuck off and comment somewhere else.
matthew181 2 years ago
@matthew181 the F-22 is more maneuverable, faster, and obviously stealthier
planefreak3 2 years ago
@planefreak3 right course it is WATCH THE FUCKING VIDEO. it tells youthe typhoon is more manoeverable. Also typhoon top speed 2475mph Raptor topspeed 2185mph. Also the typhoon has a much more advanced interface. And has helmet mounted sensors.
The F-22 does not have helmet mounted targeting system. At long rage the raptor would literally destroy the typhoon. Within about 25-30 miles the typhoon would stand a brilliant chance and i think it would come down to pilots skill and their G-resistance.
slaneyboi 2 years ago
@slaneyboi they arent mach 3 fighters...theyre mach 2 class
planefreak3 2 years ago
Sorry my mistake :)
slaneyboi 2 years ago
Which just goes to show your entire argument is rubbish. But it'll get rated up because you're telling people what that want to hear.
SlyNine 1 year ago
@slaneyboi Also, the Typhoon has BVR capability, can supercruise and can carry 360 degree awareness systems.
SuperAncientmariner 1 year ago
@slaneyboi except the typhoon would be dead before it got within 30 miles of the raptor so it doesnt really matter
TheSchoegglnator 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TheSchoegglnator
Äh you know that the Eurofighter has got a posetive lock on ,on a F22 At a NAVY Training Combat ^^
HuntingWolf1982 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
@matthew181
You're the one that should "SHUT THE FUCK UP!"
The comment/reply you made is so typical of kind made by one of those small, jeoluse Limey prick. You cannot stand being confronted by the truth that the Raptor IS superior to the Tyhpoon so you try to belitte the Raptor's superiority by making a lame-ass comment about the usefullness of stealth in bombing caves.
22250rmntn 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
talking of jealous, you're on a eurofighter video, shouting about how your country has a better plane. if you thought it was true you wouldn't feel the need to say it.
scottishlad1987 2 years ago
Oh I see, just because this video is about the Eurofighter it automatically means I'm not allowed to express a comment about the F22 being superior.
LMAO at your reasoning.
22250rmntn 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
did i say you weren't allowed? i'm sure there aren't any rules on it. i just made an observation. usually when people feel the need to tell everyone how great something is, it's because they would like it to be true, but they don't really believe it is.
the only person i have heard talking about the f22 and the eurofighter, and who has actually flown them said that the eurofighter is better than anything he has flown. and he was american.
scottishlad1987 2 years ago
@scottishlad1987
Well, I just happened to observed a fallacy in your reasoning. And guess what, for every "expert" that you can point out who state the Typhoon is superior to the Raptor, I can point out another "expert" who states the Raptor is superior Typhoon.
22250rmntn 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
well i guess nobody on youtube really knows then do they.
scottishlad1987 2 years ago
@matthew181
B-T-W
The Raptor has never been used for bombing mission although it has basic bombing capability. The caves that have been bombed by the U.S. military in Afganistan and Pakastine have been carried out by F-15s, F-16s, A-10s and Drones.
Until you get your facts straight, don't comment and reply anymore here.
Pathetic donkey.
22250rmntn 2 years ago
excellent presentation.convincing video.
puneet0303 2 years ago
I think the only fighter aircraft better than the Typhoon are the F-22, F-35 when it comes into service and possibly the Su-35 although that could be debatable, to compare an F16 or F15, Mig 29, Su-27, Tornado etc to a Typhoon there is no contest as has been proven before, look it up.
Rayden81 2 years ago
what about the Su 47 Berkut
FISHURMOMBALL 2 years ago
its been scrubbed i think
nav2491i 2 years ago
Man, Moment n machine. U need 3 aspects to win a dogfight. Red Baron was an ace with inferior fighter, Britishs were flying wooden spitfires n beat the German with fw109s, again Britishs flying subsonic Harriers and beat Argentines flying with Mirages. Isrealis flying Mirages were unbeatable in mid East shooting down MiG21s, which were the most advanced fighter at that time. History has proven it. Well trained pilots, competitive machine, n a small oppotunity window. That's how aces were made.
kaunghtut 2 years ago
Typhoon vs. Raptor. Over before it started. The F15 would work this thing without a sweat.
check45check 2 years ago
haha...funny & ignorant
Kommandant10 2 years ago
haha, what? You like a video and are giggly all over? What?
check45check 2 years ago