Frank Visser on Ken Wilber

[guitaristman23]

"doesn't bring your truth" i stop right there thanks considering there is no such thing a truth only individual truths

[cronnin]

"You are not qualified to criticize, because you are of a lower state" Nice :)

Can't you understand that there is no debating here?

There is nothing he is telling you. There is nothing to be heard.

[squamish4244]

Well said Frank Visser. Wilber is an expert at avoiding serious criticism and has a very hard time admitting he may be wrong about anything. I also question the macho approach to spiritual practice that seems to pervade his inner circle, as well as the controversies that surround the most prominent of those people: Genpo Roshi's multiple affairs with students, the serious rumors of abuse concerning Andrew Cohen, and the increasingly erratic (and also allegedly abusive) behavior of David Deida.

[Aurelius27x]

A man's game? I don''t buy that. This ego addressing ego, just doesn't work in any debate. Frank obviously just wants to compare penis size. Ken has started a great dialogue. Most interesting thing Frank says is "It might very well be true." Statements like "Spoil his party" "Integral circus" I have to question the man's intentions. Nice try Frank, shoot the messenger.

[twintigtwaalf]

wilber has won. apart from the anthony robbins shit, his winning ball still must land for you empirists. but the ball's in, everyone can see that the ball's in.

[Naturalist1979]

It's incredible how Visser, after all he's been through, still clings to this adolescent piece of pseudo-science. People are always on the lookout for a guru, someone whom they can surrender to, emotionally, socially, intellectually. This tendency to fit in a hierarchical is something we owe to our evolutionary past. (Not that Wilber accepts the theory evolution by natural selection of course; it would disrupt his ideology)

[BKKaye]

People are just too stupid to discern the true from the false on their own, so they get stuck in the belief zone.

[MrCuntyballs2U]

Kinda feels like what it must have been like to be caught in the orbit of Freud a 100 years ago...... Wilber will no doubt share F's fate

[djpj1eight7]

Well stated Frank. Wilber is steadily turning integral into a religious cult, and his religion, like most, is based on beliefs that don't hold up in the 21st century. I have offered a lot of constructive criticism on IL: search for rustin selvey on the IL site (integrallife[dot]com[slash]co­mmunity). It's interesting to note that the members there in general are not open to debate on Wilber. Very cultish kind of feel.

[rickjack76]

These are also things that I've been thinking about myself. As I became educated, and an expert in anthropology, which includes human evolution, the more I have questioned Ken's narrative. One of the problems is that he'll make an absolutist statement without citing. You just can't say "these people say," and told tell us who they are or where they say it.

[GnosisMan50]

Thanks Frank for your thoughts on Ken....I wish you had more videos like this like on your site 

[TheJiva5]

jiva5 site tries to suggest an integral philosophy through an integral education.... the open forum for criticism needs to start with an open (critical students) as well as integral (teachers) syllabus

[TheJiva5]

check out web site jiva5.com ... integral education to integral philosophy through a metaphysical integration

[LooksAeterna]

It's a pity Integral Theories and Transpersonal Psychology in general will continue to be largely ignored in the academic world because of the monumentally verbose superficiality and megalomania of their most vocal proponent Wilber.

OTOH, who knows whether it wouldn't have taken forever to make any headway into the public without WIlber.

I guess "G_d" used Wilber to influence he masses so academia now has to grudgingly consider these issues, even if Wilber will increasingly be trashed.

[LooksAeterna]

Google "A Spectrum of Wilber Critics"

[MrCuntyballs2U]

The AQAL is like a Swiss Army knife...... Everyone likes the idea of having it in their pocket...... But then again you would not and could not do any serious work with it.

[beaubluenyc]

The Dowager Empress Wilber has no clothes!

[postyesterdayman]

I would hate people to see this and think 'Ken Wilber' is full of shit. He DOES have a lot of amazing, insightful things to say and Frank's goal is to take the good of Ken's thinking and filter it to it's baser truth-which is noble and good and necessary. Just remember: Frank wouldn't be doing what he is doing w/o Ken. Chicken/Egg.

[Sagarura]

This is so much bullshit, a guy arguing why another does not want to come out a play cat and mouse to see who will man. A mans game? How about a fucking waste of time, I want back the time I spent writing this!!

[SlovenskyRaj]

One of his points is totally off: debates in disciplines of science and inquiry DO TELL OTHERS THEY ARE NOT QUALIFIED. Sadly, it happens all the time, and it doesn't give Wilber the excuse to use "you're not developed enough" as a weapon or tyranny.

Criticism and debate are GREAT! Taking on Wilber is fine if RESPECTFUL!

[BrightGarlick]

This is a great video - you are so on the ball about Ken Wilbur and his reductionist comparisons. His form of integration has nothing with truth - it has to do with flavour and ego. Keep the dialogue going Frank - it's a wonderfull chance for people to consider thinking for themselves.

[DarkAdaptedEyes]

love the way sheeple come running to defend their false prophet of choice

[twintigtwaalf]

frank, if you are coming from mean green and flatland and do not acknowledge hierarchy, you will say so. this man is way ahead, if you believe in evolution. why discuss with you, make the leap for yourself. that is why geert wilders is not debating with islam. the latter and you are both to complacent. it looks like a postmodern inquisition

[anikinippon]

Ken Wilber is a con

[rrippp]

typical mean green. personal bitchy attacks on second tier. frank's offering to this world pales in relation to wilber's. he's like a jealous little terrier trying to bite wilber's ankles. the articles on visser's site - with a few exceptions - are complete horseshit

[interwoven222]

I think WIlber has represented his thoughts in a very artistic way as well, I think some of his critics are missing this, he has spent much time talking about integral art, and I think Ken himself is an artistic expression, some critics mistakenly forget to add art to the equation of their opinion

[takezo1977]

so let the drama begin :P

wilber is just one of many teachers...dont worship him ...he's just the finger not the moon

[zavierfire]

this is weak sauce.

there are a number of legitimate criticisms to be made about ken's system, and he acknowledges that regularly, but this guy's not really making any of those criticisms. he hints at one, but that's it.

he dropped a series of 'straw man' fallacies and refuses to acknowledge the real brilliance of integral while examining it's problems.

there's a reason why world leaders read ken wilber and haven't heard of this guy.

[MaBu888]

A little weak sauce yes. The way I see it, zavierfire, is that vision-logic is the last level of consciousness that uses linear concepts such as the semi-static 4 quadrants system. While a more integral theory such as that of Peter Collins's holistic mathematics sees the 4 quadrants fully aided by experience, the 4 quadrants being connected dynamically, and tetra-arizing is more properly defined as tetra- or tricircular flow, in subtle level lingo.

[MaBu888]

To put it simply, Peter Collins's integral theory, which he calls holistic mathematics, is more specific and dynamic than AQAL map, while at the same time it seeks not to refute the AQAL map, especially as the Wilber V version of the 8 perspectives. I think Peter Collins is way ahead of Wilber. Collins seems to exist a dynamic existence theoretically that takes fuller benefit of gross, subtle, causal realms/stages/states/perspecti­ves.He acknowledges the differences between states and stages too.

[laughingpuddle]

Excellent stance. I couldn't believe that Ken Wilber didn't have a message board on his website where people can discuss the different aspects of integral theory. I'm a big fan of him but I don't understand why he tends to keep integral theory closed source.

[zezt]

'integral'????

That is Orwellian for CASTE SYSTEM!

[bipolarorwakingup]

Hey zezt....nice seeing you over here! Now I know why you have a problem with my stuff!!!! I plan on getting to the tribal issue soon, but I'm still a fan of the heart of Wilber's stuff. Personally, I think he blows it by simply connecting an awareness of non-ordinary states with higher levels of consciousness, because all levels have this access...so something is amiss there....but as for the rest of it, I'm a fan....how could I not be? I've lived through all the stages he talks about..

[MaBu888]

Actually there are other integral theories of consciousness that seek dynamic integration. The proponents of such an integral paradigm call Wilber's AQAL (all quadrant, all level map) as not a proper integral map, but indeed a very concise and practical multi-differential map that at least is good enough to be used in multidisciplinary research, while what is called integral, can be done best in actual experience and that includes appreciation of many sciences, such as mathematics and depth psy.

[zezt]

I dont dig Wilber at all.

I dont want him to hijack that term, integral. So I think I agree with you, and also Indigenous peoples who I have heard say they see the westerners view of the reality 'compartmentalized' while they encourage *integration*. Seeing how things interconnect

[MaBu888]

However, according to other theories of integration, Wilber's AQAL approach per se, is not wrong, just... boring, if you get what I mean.

[zezt]

OHHH yes! ;)

[MaBu888]

The *integration* of which you speak when referring to western style *integration* that has its beginnings in rigid modernistic ideologies, is not the same as the integral and holistic integration, because it doesn't seek quick fixes, but durable and flexible social and cultural means to transformation, to put it simply.

[MaBu888]

Things interconnect through relationships and differences. The task of integralists, out of many tasks, is to integrate diversity with discernment. That means that no matter how different someone is from someone else, roles can be found. But these roles are chosen freely and these roles are flexible. Egalitarianism (or at least some of its healthy versions) ought to be meshed together or superceded by an addition of competence. This is antithetical to a caste system.

[zezt]

Yes, I gell with that

[MaBu888]

Yep put that smile on mah face thx. I'm glad we agree on this. I suspected your views to be close to these. I am, however, using a form of dialectical reasoning from Wilberian sources, so to speak. When I referred to competence, I referred to the transition from an egalitarian worldview to the most 'stereotypical' integral worldview that is as wise and as inclusive about the previous levels of development possible. The integral worldview is a naturally occuring phenomenon in my book so to speak.

[MaBu888]

The way I see it, a map cannot be integral. But action itself can be integrally informed.

[MaBu888]

When it comes to this video, I see it as a near-meaningless mutual manumission of vitriol that serves almost merely controversial value to... what ever is going on. At the same time Frank Visser found a lot that he agrees with Wilber in, but alas the vitriol produces proverbial tears in mine mind's eye, so to speak.

That must be the best use of metaphor from me in a while, haven't checked. :)

As a final word on the issues we covered: Wilber needs to get his assout of Boulder Coolaidorado.

[Lindsoiderf]

Ken hasn't lived in Boulder for 7 years.

[MaBu888]

Oh now he's in Denver.

[Lindsoiderf]

yep, he took your advice :)

[MaBu888]

Denverrrrrrr.... that's where the alien bases are :))))

[Lindsoiderf]

Exactly, there is infinitely more culture in Denver possibly even alien ones.

[MaBu888]

Agreed! And there are these greenz as well... and there are the 5 ft tall Orion greys under the ground working for their reptilian over-lords. :)

The Earth's noosphere and akashic field are filled with such data. :) I think it is probably true...

[Lindsoiderf]

yeah it could be true.

[MaBu888]

This goes way deep.

P.S. this is a spatial metaphor and an 'occultic' one.

[Lindsoiderf]

I will be sure to apprehend you as such.

[janetklak]

Wilber is so in the head and the ego I can't even watch him for more than 2 minutes. I think you may want to try another avenue like Thich Nhat Hahn.

Many blessings

[mesa134]

Hi sir but why would you care to analyse the detail?? all of it is 100% wrong! Ken wilber is trying to explain something that can't be touch with words.Most "spiritual gurus" merely come from a place of no mind so maybe you see this for yourself

[aarononetwo]

Excellent.

[sticmatic]

I totally respect integral science / spirituality, but... you both act like kinda showing off and competing? okay, so you've integrated the potential of competative debates ... bah, you both go, listen to some of thich nhat hanhs teachings or another authentic teacher... you're stuck in youre own complex system :/

[MaBu888]

I saw a Wilber video that was open to the possibility about Wilber debating and corrigating his views on biology, with him being supposed to be a qualified biologist, and his ideas about the nieches, communion side of biology. It seems that Wilber can do more science, because when he engaged in reductionist science, he was actually very good at science.

[VeggiePower303]

Analisys, agreeing or disagreeing.

All meaningless mental gimnastics.

The TRUTH is.

Do you see it or you don't?

[1PostPoMoMaN1]

The meaningless mental gymnastic must be integrated to create a map that leads out of samsara.

[KayePorter]

Frank Visser hits the nail on the head when he talks about the importance of criticism - if there were no critics we might all wander around still believing the world is flat.

Sometimes critics can be the best feedback around, so we don't wander off into lala land, but continue to hone and refine out best guesses and thoughts.

[MaBu888]

Words to live by.

BTW Google search: Peter Collins holistic mathematics . . .

[keiphyn]

Awesome! Thank you.

a quote I came across:

"If you can't question it, it isn't a revolution"

[Aurelius27x]

@KayePorter My question is... would such revelations take place without it. I don't believe the great shifts in consciousness occured because of a few critics. Evolution is inevitable.

[TheObnubilators]

i think wilber will eventually open up a little bit, transcend and include his addiction to being right, lol

[claudelebel55]

lol

[R231111]

bwahahaha

[MaBu888]

My mind goes out to him so that he would achieve that goal "ranscend and include his addiction to being right, lol"

[MaBu888]

'i think wilber will eventually open up a little bit, transcend and include his addiction to being right, lol'

I will pray for that day LOL. With integrally informed meditaitin'.

[TheObnubilators]

She (Randi) was at a meetup for waking down in mutuality, in NYC yesterday. We talked about Vissar very briefly, when we were leaving. Oh man, and I was searching for her earlier on facebook, and meetup.

Check out my latest vids if you wanna see a brief intro to waking down, which has ties Wilberism. It's pretty cool, and I intend to make more videos about it too.

[TheObnubilators]

oh shit i just met the girl who interviewed him!!!

[TheObnubilators]

Thank you Mr. Vissar for Untwisting the twisters and replacing the wiskers and the grace and grit kissers We need more people like you To think albeit despiting you TO intellectually fight you And integrally over-might you So I take my hat off to you And rest my ears eyes through you ANd let energy fallow In the path which brings tommorrow

[AllmanAlex]

Great video. I love Wilbur's ideas and theories... Many people take them to be "scientifically" valid... they are not. Integral Theory is not science, it is philosophy. It can not stand up to scientific inquiry. Of course any set of facts can be interpreted in infinite ways, and Wilbur interprets selective sets of facts into a beautiful philosophy that represents an astonishing work of genius and aesthetic sensibility. Good philosophy demands robust debate or its just a clever cult.

[MaBu888]

Go google Peter Collins Holistic Mathematics... now this states that gross level's final cognitive development is visionlogic, and that to go further Wilber uses poetry, and Peter Collins uses Holistic Mathematics. Wilber has but an intuitional grasp of higher (post-visionlogical) levels, and he expresses these views (subtle realm is a circle) in poetic fashion, but Peter Collins, mathematically. Anyway, gross=line, subtel=circular, causal=point (hence, one-pointed), nondual=radial (infinity).

[GnosisMan50]

Visser is right...this world is going to hell unless we do something about it. It's time the integral movement speaks out in ways it resonates with humanity. Why can't they make a movie akin to the matrix or even a documentary. Look at Peter Joseph's Zeitgeist: Addendum. He made this pretty much all by himself. Why can't the integral movement do the same? Why is it taking so long for this movement to say something!?

It's so sad!

[MaBu888]

GnosisMan50 I agree, the integral institute and gang should make a prize winning docu, srlsly. :) Seriously.

[pecman731]

I'm going to order a pizza and watch the episode of saved by the bell where screech lets jesse be valedictorian

[zelfdoen]

Seems Mr. Visser has some excellent points.

[nodonnel]

Also, I read at least a little fear in Mr. Visser. It seems that what he's really afraid of, or really "critiquing" is the paradigm shift that Ken Wilber is a part of. It's a paradigm shift because, like it or not, physicalist scientific methods (Frank talks about "biology" a lot in this video)have little to say about integral psychology (or whatever you want to call consciousness studies), and nowhere to start. If you want to be in another paradigm, fine. But don't disguise vitriol as critique.

[taolad]

What ARE you talking about? He is calmly calling, to the point of being phlegmatic, for a respectable, thorough discussion about the individual points Wilber brings up - Wilber deals with science, including biology. It should be worth discussing, which is all Visser is saying.

I have read and listened to Wilber a great deal. As Visser and others say, it is always seductively impressive. But it also raises questions; and no, not because we are not evolved enough to get it.

[nodonnel]

I find your last sentence quite interesting. There are, in fact, many states of awareness that humans are not "evolved' enough to achieve in normal circumstances. Of course, human beings can do things to elevate their state of consciousness, but at a certain point I would argue that continual presence of this kind of awareness would warrant an evolutionary title to the people who could maintain said awareness.

[nodonnel]

As far as Wilber is concerned, I would say that he could use some evolution, too, and I'm sure he would agree. He might deal in biology and other physical sciences, but to focus too much on such dealings is to miss the larger point of his work. And to be honest, I think he misses the point of his own work from time to time; i.e., his state of awareness occasionally dips below what I would call "integral." Follow Visser and you'll get answers, I just don't think they'll be very useful.

[taolad]

This is exactly the problem - to get caught up it labeling all things "evolved" or not so. From one side, something is evolved. From another it is not. Take responsibility for yourself, and only that.

Wilber and his posse sit around and label everyone and everything (I have seen it first hand.) Its often arrogant, and pointless. Wilber has exactly described the limits of what systems can describe.

Visser is only calling for much needed critique and analysis. Why would YOU fear that?

[taolad]

"everyday mind is the way."

[hollowtube76]

That sounds pretty relativistic an unintegral to me. If you want to criticize integral theory, you should be able to think integrally and not flatten everything out and reduce everything to taking responsibility. The whole point in Integral is that there are ways that are more true than others and that's what we're trying to uncover.

[hollowtube76]

These comments are a reply to Taolad. I'm not sure why they keep appearing at the top even though I'm clicking "reply" to that comment.

[hollowtube76]

The map that Ken Wilber is laying out is hierarchical or holarchical as well as horizontal and if you want to know how to evolve or become a more actualized human being, you need to know where you are on the map.

[taolad]

You sound like a typical Wilber groupie. How'd you like the Koolaid?

Where you are on the map? I have been involved in "spiritual" practices most of my life, including 10 as a Zen monk. One thing I've learned is in the rain of real practice, Wilber's boxes disintegrate, and only those with more work to do get caught in the trap of judging others relative place on the scale of "evolution." What Wilber does is not science, or even philosophy. It often looks like a big "inflation" tango, for one.

[hollowtube76]

I don't know what "the Koolaid" or "inflation tango" is. I assume you are trying to imply that Wilber is running a cult or something. That's pretty far-fetched at least. It's true that in deep meditation the quadrants dissolve because there is just the vast expanse of the Ground of Being but maps are important to know how to get there and how to manifest it in the relative world and participate in Life. I really don't think Ken is judging people in order to feel superior...

[hollowtube76]

That would be pretty immature. I've talked with people who are really close with Ken and that's not what he's about. Integral theory says that Evolution is Spirit-in-action and taking part in the process is experienced as thrilling from a certain perspective. This makes a lot more sense to me than just saying it's an illusion and we're supposed to wake up and get out of it. Why not wake up and engage with it more and discover the spiritual impulse to evolve as well as to be totally Free?

[nodonnel]

I honestly think that this man is very smart, but I don't think he understands what Ken Wilber is trying to do. Or rather, what he's compelled to do. Wilber is a man on a mission; specifically, he is on a mission to refocus people on their own consciousnesses. I think consciousness, and it's mystery and mysterious powers, are Wilber's main focuses. His success comes not because he addresses Iraq, or even would address it, but because people are increasingly interested in issues of consciousness.

[roravi]

If one is truly integral, then there would not need to be any debate on whether Wilber is right or wrong. If one is truly integral one has the intelligence to think for oneself and the understanding to understand what it is that Wilber is about. Wilber is not a GOD, wilber does not know everything, wilber makes mistakes, and yet wilber is so great because one understands what wilber is about

[FR33L0RD]

"Frank Visser agree to disagree with Ken Wilber"

{a sort clin d'oeil from Alan Watts)

You are all good & important philosophers.

We love you.

Great Philosophers open the road to Great Politicians.

[danger0usknowledge]

Bout time.

[bannonsmedium]

I've a current disgust for our recent authorities actions. So much that I trust few...I've fallowed Kens work with a question I think Visser is bouncing around.

Ken never assumes he is at the top of the hierarchy o I don't totally agree with the clam Wilbur is argumentative in this fashion.

Though I do want him to start or fallow up on what he has said which bring questions about Global warming,Illuminati being these higher levels in control...

That's what I would ask.

[bannonsmedium]

Good work!

I've a current disgust for our recent authorities actions. So much that I trust few...

I've fallowed Kens work with a question I think Visser is bouncing around.

Ken never assumes he is at the top of the hierarchy o I don't totally agree with the clam Wilbur is argumentative in this fashion.

Though I do want him to start or fallow up on what he has said which bring questions about:

Global warming

Illuminati being these higher levels in control...

That's What I would ask

Bannon

[bannonsmedium]

Good work!

I've a current disgust for our recent authorities actions. So much that I trust few. I've fallowed Kens work with a question I think Visser is bounching around.

Ken never asumes he is at the top of the hierarchy so I don't totally agree with the clam Wilbur is argumentative in this fashion.

Though I do want him to start or fallow up on what he has said which bring questions about:

Global warming BEING mans fault

Illuminati being these higher levels in control.

Things like that

[taolad]

Gawd - illuminati? Really? Has it come to that? Welcome to youtube...so long to rational discussion...

[bannonsmedium]

Yeah, there is a video of him addressing that sort of thing. But I guess I'm crazy

[DustTown]

I think frank's intentions are good. But I have seen too many of Ken's works and audios files to know that he is aware of most of the problems people could find with Integral philosophy. Perversions of integral in the hands of social Darwinists, terrorists, or any venue of human vice is simply unavoidable if integralism were to come out into the daylight.

[MaBu888]

DustTown yeah I agree, Visser should acutally be more informed and etc.

[richidpraah]

you're being too modest, frank. i guess that's part of your meme. (actually kinda funny he uses the meme meme, since that's the psychopathy of the mechanistic hallucination of the disenchanted dualism that believes it's materialist monism.) nice to see your face too, been reading you since i thankfully found your site.. my solution to the problem of integral theory: (besides the problem of outlining anything concrete about it sans info-involution) keep sri and jean, loose ken!

[mrbook7]

I'm fairly new to Integral Theory though I've only looked into it after I've more or less 'found myself'. So the theory is very attractive and I believe very true, to my own experience at least. But I am turned off by the advertising and money making that is going along with this Integral Theory. It isn't some self-help life for $99, it is a summing up of all reality. Selling the idea is contradictory to the idea itself.

[MaBu888]

For sure, visser.

[magx68]

Integral theory is quiet new and also seems full of common sense but I also welcome criticism cause I'm sure we need iron out the sharp edges in the theory. Integral is on the right track but maybe not perfect yet.

[sterlingenterprise]

About time,long over due

[davidtitterington]

thanks for posting this. its full of love.

[metamorphicresonance]

this is great. i knew frank visser was cool.

"a thankful subject"

objective with out being crude.

[DustTown]

We definitely need frank in the integral movement. He contributes much to the integral philosophy more than most of us realize.

I'm still waiting for the publications of ken's latest works. I have been waiting for so many years.

Continue your hard work Frank. Ken's got some parts wrong definitely, but his integral, holarchial, transclusionist vision also needs to endure.

Best to you both