Fascinating to hear this version. The slower tempo brings a whole new dynamic to the piece, somehow allowing you to savour the notes and the crafting of music unlike other versions eg Liverpool Cathedral where it's played so fast it almost feels like the notes are thrown away (although I appreciate acoustics may mean the faster tempo sounds better in situ).
I do not know what to say to describe my feelings.. Words like marvelous, outstanding become pale when I'm trying describe this masterpiece. Things like tempo, registration, his mistakes in this case- when 88 years old (!!!) Widor is performing his own toccata on the place where it was written are absolutely meaningless for me. I don't need anything else, I could die right now.
one cant fault the playing of the one who composed this piece. How ever he plays it, its the best, after all he composed it and understands the meaning behind the piece better than anyone.
1emanres - Age doesn't enter into it at all and as he composed the piece he knows how it should be played better than anyone. Anyway, my old organist and choirmaster was brilliant and innovative well into his 80's. He was a very skilful and technically brilliant organist. This is still my favourite piece of church music and has been since I first heard it played on the organ of Blackburn Cathedral nearly 40 years ago. It always sends a shiver down my spine
Somehow, this is more impressive than any fast recording of it. It's so much grander, and much more powerful. Being played by Widor, it sounds more like Widor (obvious, I know, but bear with me). Listening to other recordings is nice, sure, but listening to this recording just makes my heart lift.
Try it on the chapel organ of Christ's Hospital, Horsham, Sussex, England. It'll knock your breaches off. Thanks for posting this, a really unique piece of organ music history for all to share.
Proper performance is a variation anyway, suited to every relevant condition of the site. Widor was old when he played this. It really does take a young mind to improvise performances.
I love it. Widor's execution is perfect. It is hard for me to put this into words if you have not experienced this personally but certain pipes "speak" best at a certain slower tempo if allowed to do so against the backdrop of the "tocatta".
now only if you could have him playing his allegro from the 6th symphony i would be the happiest person on earth. widor is my favorite composer. love his work. the best french composer of all time.
Critics: the gold standard is the composer him/herself playing their compositions. Period. You want argue with the composer? You're a fool. Anyone can be a critic. You may like or dislike the piece, but always respect the composer. There is no "interpretation" when the composer plays his/her music.
This is the composer himself playing the Toccata. He is showing to the work the way that he has intended it to be played. Not to fast or not to slow, but just right. The COMPOSER is letting the instrument voice out every voice and sing for themselves. Don't anyone dare second guess the actual COMPOSER paying HIS own music.
Absolutely beyond belief that anyone can criticize the Composer and Artiste.I have always believed that classical music has a certain snobbery.Well i am just an ordinary person who likes some, not all Classical music.This is fantastic.
@P4108Man750 Agreed! You would be quite surprised at the number of snobbish, arrogant organ/organist critics on Youtube who have the audacity to criticize someone on their own compositions/improvisations! The funniest ones are those who apparently met J.S. Bach 260+ years ago and know what tempo he wanted his music played at today. If Widor wanted to play his toccata at the speed in the video, so be it!
@anb740 I was talking with someone i worked with, about classical music,He was a terrible classical music snob,thought he was the only one allowed to discuss it.He declared that i didn't pronounce "The intermezzo from the Karelia suite" correctly,and gave me his superior smirk.A short time after i was able to prove him wrong,from a recording.Never did get an apology.
@P4108Man750 Sadly, the music field is full of these types. Operatic singers are the absolute worst snobs I've encountered, and most think that all non-singing accompanists are beneath them. And anyone of these types who exude their arrogance in my direction will find themselves singing A capella. (and they don't sound so great with no music to back them up!)
Its always amusing to hear comments who think they know better than the composer! All experts. The man wrote an absolutely enthralling piece of music , he knew how it should be played anything else is a mere interpretation.
This Toccata sounds better at a moderate tempo -- many contemporary organists play it too fast. That being said, in 1932 he was 88 years old when he performed this, and the ravages of old age may have caused him to play the Toccata slower than he would have in his younger years. He resigned his post as organist at St Sulpice a year later in 1933; suffered a stroke in 1936, and died in 1937 at the age of 93.
I think that you may be correct that C-M Widor played the toccata slower than he would have when he was younger. The score indicates quarter note = 110. In this performance, Maestro Widor seems to be playing slower (around quarter note = 90, yes? no?). Still, this performance was a treat. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
If the Composer himself is playing this piece..then he can play at whatever speed he pleases..I think he should know what tempo his work should be played at by any half-decent organist..not armchair critics...THIS IS A BEAUTIFUL rendition
Well said - speed is a personal preferance and for me, I feel this is a bit too slow but not stupidly slow but that's my personal taste. Some organists tend to go fast just because they can!
Fast or slow is a personal preference. The piece stands on it's own merits and the majesty of this piece comes through.....fast.....or .... slow. Either way, enjoy....
G-D's gift of music. Personally, I feel since he composed the magnificent piece, he was entitled to perform it at any tempo he damn well pleased!!! Bravo!
It is well known that Widor tried EVERYTHING to slow organists up in this work, but to no avail, because if they played slow their brother organists would say, they don't know how to play! Of course when Widor does it ....
It was well know that Widor tried EVERYTHING to slow organists up in this work, but to no avail, because if they played slow their brother organists would say, they don't know how to play! Of course when Widor does it ....
Actually, this is probably the best tempo for St. Sulpice. On a modern American organ it needs to go faster, especially in a place with dead acoustics! It would be horribly boring otherwise, played in certain churches where I've played. There is not one absolute tempo for a piece. You have to consider time and place.
This Widor worship, particularly as to the exceedingly slow tempo, is nonsense. By any objective standard this performance is on the sloppy side, after all he was nearly 90 when he made this recording and playing a 5 manual mechanical organ with all the couplers engaged. Not surprised it's slow and messy. We'll never know, but I'd bet it was faster in 1879 when he wrote it. BTW, Widor just wrote Allegro - editors added metronome markings ranging from 100 to 118. Widor plays 88 (his age then!)
@gtimny I have to agree with what you say technically; but I feel that, despite age and infirmity, his artistry is still evident - as is the sheer love of music. Would love to have heard him in 1879.
@ian1856 To have heard him in his prime, absolutely. Here he struggles so much it's hard to credit his artistry, much as we'd like to. This recording and 4 other "sides" were made in 1932 by HMV (His Master's Voice) which was a highly commercial enterprise. I suspect that some organ-loving producer said "Let's record Widor" and his superior said, "Is he still alive? Well, we'll only do it if he'll record the Toccata" and they talked him into it. He must've known he wasn't really up to it.
@gtimny Actually, no. His revised tempo, was q=100. He originally had it as q=110. If you'd like proof, the mentioned revisions are available at the Werner Icking Music Archive.
Widor played this tempo because her realized that in his original score too many organist were playing way too fast. This is elegantly played by the master. I have heard way too many organist play this way too fast. This tempo makes sense. You hear all the nuances and therefore you enjoy this piece better. Tres bien!
This is the right "speed" for me. I have no idea of music, just 3 years of piano in my childhood, but I can see all the colors here and the sounds evolving. I hate the other performers, they destroy this masterpiece, it seems I am hearing an organ grinder.
The Barker-lever system was one of the key factors . If you have ever played one of the organs with that action, you simply can't play this piece much faster--the Barker-levers won't WORK that fast. It would literally have been impossible for it to be faster Yes, his tempo marking is 100, and most organists play it faster. Tempos have increased over the last cent. in almost all classical performances.I agree--this recording is a treasure. I hope I can still find an organ bench at 88 yrs. old.
@pajtijms Si, on PEUT jouer plus vite sur une Barker. Voyez par exemple la version de Robilliard (/watch?v=N5z0HElBifQ) à St-François-de-Sales ou le disque de Pierre Labric à St-Ouen. Je crois plutôt que Widor a indiqué un tempo modéré pour des raisons d'acoustique.
As a National Councillor & Frmr Regional Councillor of the American Guild of Organists this is one of the best versions I have ever heard. We must not be to harsh by criticizing the correct tempo. If I am not mistaken, this was the same Tempo that Master Widor himself wrote, or it could be that he himself had to play a little slower for some health reason or problem with the organ or whatever reason. However, This is an Awesome piece and I love playing this piece all of the time. Thank you!
Personally, I was thinking it was in the accents, not the pace...
The wonderful thing about great musical pieces is that they give room for interpretation, so that we all may enjoy them; some fast some not so fast. Therefore (and not trying to be like hanging Jello on a wall with a thumbtack trying to please everyone) we must all enjoy that which is great, and try to emulate it.
We must all respect the the fact that Widor was 88 when this was recorded. It is too easy to be judgemental. This seems to be the order of modern times, Everyone wants to be a critic....The music is awsome, even if you do not agree with the tempo. How can anyone critisise the accoustics....accuostics hadn't been truly discovered......I am a keen audio fanatic and would always have liked better recording standards....this is one of the better ones of its time. Listen and enjoy the nostalga.
Thanks for this.Interesting, how rough the organ sounds - still musical, but a bit ragged at the edges. Difficult to take into account the circumstances in which this was recorded, and how it must have sounded without the effects of relatively poor quality equipment and the effects of age on the recording. In some senses, it's more impressive, especially as a 'voice from the past.' Did the uploader add the 'distressing' to the photo of Widor, subconciously, being influenced by this, I wonder?
I always believe that the composer's interpretation is never wrong-but, I also like Daniel Chorzempa's recording, which is very fast. The fact that this piece can be performed within such a large tempo spectrum, and still be beautiful and sound logical is a testament to the profundity of Widor's composition.
Whenever I do not agree in general to deviate too much from author's tempo I agree to say that Toccata in Fa may be played also a little bit faster than master Widor does. But just a little. Keep in mind that it is played with Ripieno always on but in a minimal part, so it may be a problem to hear all the notes that tend to melt together because of some too high speed.
It is interesting what you say about the wide tempo spectrum that can be performed.
I'm really thankful he wrote this piece but it just doesn't grab me the way Diane Bish's version does. I mean it's his piece but for me personally the fast version is what I think of when I think of this piece
The Meister can play it any way he wants. Thank God he provided it for us. But I like it a little faster, a little lighter on the pedals, and with some rhythm change-ups. I'll cry either way, though. Widor is der Man!!
I like this tempo, too fast and one misses the beautiful idea of the pedal (F-f) as a glizando, as it was intended in a space of 7+ second reviberation. Of course, most churches/cathedrals don't have that kind of reviberation...so most organists, especially American orgasists just play it fast as a they can, as a "show off" piece and most audiences, not knowing any better, just think it's wonderful. Oh well, there's no accounting for ignorance or taste.
BRAVO.BRAVO!!!!! MR. Widor! Thank you for not only writing this marvelous work, but for playing for us as well! And, I say that if you wrote it, you can play it any way you want the world to hear it! At 88, you are miraculous! I wish I could run up to you and give you a big hug!!!! What an inspiration you are here! BRAVO!
I think we should consider "his age" in another sense of the word. Not how old he was, but the time he was living in. The pace was slower. Today it takes more to excite people. Organists play it faster today, not to show off, but to excite our jaded modern audiences.
Allergrößten Respekt vor dem 88-jährigen Widor!!! Wenn ich mit 88 noch diese Ausdauer habe, kann ich mich sehr glücklich schätzen (Da kann man auch mal darüber hinweg sehen, dass hier mindestens genau so viele falsche wie richtige Töne dabei sind;)).
As a National Councillor of American Guild of Organists, thanks for this post.
This is the tempo that I prefer this particular piece played, because as you play faster you get a workout, but your audience can't hear the piece in a whole. When slowed down, it allows for the audience to really understand what the music or "pipes" is saying. A very wise man told me this and have put into practice. Who? My Deceased Father, a Former National President and Regional & National Councillor
I've always complained, this piece is played TOO fast. It's become a "show off" piece. The chord progressions and arpeggic accompaiment is missed when played too fast. Also, and most importantly, the pedal is to sound like a glissando from low F to high F, if you have the right accustics, of course. Therein lies the problem, accustics. I've never understood why churches carpet the floors, pad the pews, cover the walls/ceilings with deaddening material, then buy expensive PA systems?
Nobody can argue that he composed this piece and played it how he wanted it but in this recording, he makes many mistakes and misses out some notes. If he was 88 when this recording was made, perhaps that is as fast as he could do it. I hope I can still play that well when I am 88. I would like to hear a recording of him playing it when he was younger. I am not sure how old Widor was when he composed the Toccata. Personally I prefer it a bit faster but not so much that the notes are all a blur.
@goodchappy I agree with you, but it's just one of those things where if you're really up there in age, you won't be able to play very well. That seems to be true for famous, world-known instrumentalists. It could be wear and tear on the body that contributes to that. With that being said, I think it's great to hear a recording of a very successful piece by its composer, and use the recording as a basis for how to play it.
I just want to let you big guys know about that one can change the tempo in relation to the acoustic of the building. In this extent, there are MANY possibilities of good interpretation. I have also played it in a very dry church in doubled tempo, as it was awful to play it in the normal tempo: as a dry bath... (contradiction in adjection) In most of the performances posted on youtube articulation and rhythm are totally distroyed. Exceptions are unique. More self-critique!
I'm going to hear this piece this evening and I bet that head organist will play it much faster. But even so I have to admit he's master. Thanks for your music!!
It' so wonderful to her the ol' boy pay the Toccata himself...everyone always plays it so fast, like dear Virgil, Carlo and Diane...Why? because they can! But Widor demonstrates what he had in mind, which was that the F to f in the pedal was to sound like a glissando and the hand notes filled in the scale...which is what the organist produces when playing in a space like Notre Dame, 6 to 8 seconds reverb. What a pleasure to hear the master.
This is indeed a great recording and a valuable link to the essence of the composer himself. There may be a simple explanation for the slower tempo: Widor used a double click metronome indication. That would make his performance tempo here just about on. Probably Franck and Reger, among others, used the same system for tempo markings.
@Brideshead09 The metronome indication is quarter note = 118. Widor plays it at a tempo that is slightly under 100 for the quarter note. No connection with "Stewen's" double-beat metronome notation.
As National Councillor of AGO and Son to a Former National Councillor and President, Thanks for this post.
I Truly love this piece, I prefer to play it at the same tempo as heard here, because it allows the listener to fully hear all the pipes sing, when played at a much faster speed, not only do you get a workout, but the listener doesn't hear the notes fully to understand what the music is saying. I like to activate the 2 64' and 32' stops, and the 4 16' stops
Dear willowthebored ,the words i told bellow came from Widor's mouth directly,he surely didnt move his hands as fast as he was young this is obvious and there is no way to criticise a giant like him at the age of 88,i am sure he played it faster in his younger age
Well, lets just say that THIS recording brought tears to my eyes and a chill down my spine. Don't stop with the tocatta, though. Listen to the whole symphony wherever you can find it. Listen and listen and listen to every interpretation, for they all have something to offer. Remember, no artist sets out to play badly. I despair of the harsh comments on so many videos. As though each performance were not an offering of one's self to the world! Grace and peace to you all!
This is Saint Sulpice. Not as loud as you'd think, is it? To be fair, Widor never even approaches the tutti in this recording, and it's about 90 years old, to boot.
@willowthebored I wonder why then people play this peice fast if it was wrote at a slow tempo...:S But I still like it a lot faster tempo-116 to 120 would be perfect for me (even though I'm only 14 and i still don't no how to play this peice).
It can be very easily used as a showpiece, I think, and that's why people play it fast. It's acceptable to play it fast, I think, it certainly doesn't sound bad - it should just be known that this isn't true to the composer's wishes.
I think that this is by far one of the very BEST recordings of this piece. At this slow tempo, we can feel the "grandeur" and the majesty of this great toccata. Thank you Widor!
The true story is that when Widor finally convinced to make his only one recording,he said ok lets do it and we laugh about it afterwards,so he surely meant that this piece cannot played slowly but because of his age he couldnt move his fingers as fast as his youth
Oh, he could move his fingers that fast. Every night on Christmas Eve until the day he retired he played the Variations on Puer Natus Est from his 9th symphony without fail. Accomplishing that feat at age 87 would make this Toccata a snap at any speed. The deliberate tempo is very intentional.
the proper tempo, like this recording of Widor himself, can only be one that listens to the building and lets the organ speak like Widor does here. In St Sernin even this would be too fast.
I think this is THE BEST Tempo. You can here every single note! And that was the intention why widor has chosen this slow tempo ( originally it was written for 80 bpm )! So really good performance.
@friedrichsacher Thanks for this info. I do have a general question, though, (I am not an organist, but I do love organ music) wouldnt the echo in a church have an influence on the tempo chosen? In a very big church, like NotreDame, or St. John's in NY, the sound can, I imagine get rather muddy. SO a slower tempo can maybe help. Or am I wrong?
@friedrichsacher Acoustics play a very important part in playing this piece a dry room requires one to play it faster to keep it "glued" together. A very reverbrant room allows the player time and space to enjoy the piece. The room works well with the organist. Widor had the room...
What wonder he could create, and this is the composer so one can figure that this is what it was intended to sound like.
I love how he blends the 16th notes together as if they were being played fast, but remaining at the speed he plays.
I work on this piece and often must stop and play at a slow tempo just to remind myself of what wonderful complexity and intricacies are present and how a fast tempo covers or cancels out what wonder the notes behold
This gives me hope that I'll (still) be able to play the Symph No. 5 some 30 years from now. With any luck there will still be a few "real" organs around!
He opens up the tempo toward the end -- as if to say, "I can still do it, you know." The world is so much of a better place because of this piece. Thank you, Msr. Widor!
Thank you so much for sharing this with us. It is truly an incredible feeling to hear the master himself performing the piece he composed. This has to be the greatest organ piece ever written. Widor's genius will live on forever.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who needs to put in a little pause at 5.23! Respect to a towering genius, the numerous charming mistakes only underline how amazing it is that he could still play at all at that age. His playing in the closing section is deeply moving. He plays in heaven now.
For me, so much depends on the action and the space...some organs and spaces just want this kind of tempo..my recording is on a tubular pneumatic...it just cannot go any faster...I like all of these recordings for what they are...I also like creation rather than reproduction..hence best and worst are not in my vocabulary..I personally like "high level" which allows for many bests...happy listening.. D
This is absolutely the coolest thing in the whole wide world! The only thing that could match it would be hearing Joseph Leutgeb play the Mozart horn concertos, or Bach on his own organ. This shoves it to all those people that think faster is better. And dang, at that age, he is still pushing down those physically connected keys quite well. This is absolutely amazing. Thanks for posting!
It is amazing that we can actually hear this magnificent piece played as originally written. In the modern era though I do believe that Daniel Roth, Ben Van Ooesten, and Oliver Latry do play this piece the best. Especially with Roth and Latry's registration. Even though the Grande Orgue De Notre Dame is nothing of the orginal modified by Cavillie-Coll (if spelt right haha)
this is fascinating. A composer's own interpretation changes based on how they feel and think from day to day, and their own revisions change constantly as a result. Plus the interpretations of publishers and other performers. It's what makes music so amazing a phenomena, the way in which a work will change and evolve through history long after the composer has passed on.
Now I use the revised edition which has the slurred mordents in the first two bars as well as the accents in the left hand chords in the first six bars. That is what he is doing here but sadly the recorder quality isn't good enough to give us a definite answer. I suppose that is all down to interpretation.
Daniel Roth's recording displays ever aspect of the revised edition with makes that job easier for us.
My organ teacher had studied with Widor and this is the speed I was taught to play the Toccata at. It was never meant to be played the way some people gallop through it!
The "teacher of the teacher of" is not necessarily the best argument.
At a recent piano masterclass, a student presented 'Prelude, chorale et Fugue" of César Franck. The very emotional interpretative comments written on the page by the teachers of teachers since the venerable Franck had completely obliterated the notes, which were not really what the student was playing...
Interesting that the 32' bombarde is nowhere to be heard. Do you think that such power and low frequencies would have been detrimental to the state of recording art in 1932, or was it perhaps a simple artistic choice on Widor's part? Talk amongst yourselves...
Well from what I know the recording engineers at St. Sulpice who are responsible for this faced many difficulties.
I have read an article that documents both Widor and the recorder's conversations before and after that. Widor thought this project was amusing.
We Can't really tell because to me it sounds like their device must have been positioned right beneath the organ just a few metres in front of the entrance to the cathedral.
Dit stuk muziek is mischien wel het mooiste wat ik ooit gehoord heb, als dit in de hemel gespeeld wordt, zou ik daar toch wel willen komen
eindedarten1 1 week ago
GORGEOUS!!!!
bckm54 1 week ago in playlist More videos from GrandCorps
great widor love it
Peronter77 1 week ago
Comment removed
binky4647 2 weeks ago
Fascinating to hear this version. The slower tempo brings a whole new dynamic to the piece, somehow allowing you to savour the notes and the crafting of music unlike other versions eg Liverpool Cathedral where it's played so fast it almost feels like the notes are thrown away (although I appreciate acoustics may mean the faster tempo sounds better in situ).
KennnnnnyTucky 3 weeks ago
I do not know what to say to describe my feelings.. Words like marvelous, outstanding become pale when I'm trying describe this masterpiece. Things like tempo, registration, his mistakes in this case- when 88 years old (!!!) Widor is performing his own toccata on the place where it was written are absolutely meaningless for me. I don't need anything else, I could die right now.
jpaslawski93 3 weeks ago 2
Indeed the composer was a brilliant maestro who through this work makes our hearts sing with joy.
srndcn 3 weeks ago
Nice to hear the piece performed by the composer himself. I prefer the slower tempo here so all the notes can be clearly heard.
grover9559 4 weeks ago
this is one of the most beautiful and moving pieces of organ music i have ever been blessed to experience.
locke11216 1 month ago 2
one cant fault the playing of the one who composed this piece. How ever he plays it, its the best, after all he composed it and understands the meaning behind the piece better than anyone.
quinn244 1 month ago
1emanres - Age doesn't enter into it at all and as he composed the piece he knows how it should be played better than anyone. Anyway, my old organist and choirmaster was brilliant and innovative well into his 80's. He was a very skilful and technically brilliant organist. This is still my favourite piece of church music and has been since I first heard it played on the organ of Blackburn Cathedral nearly 40 years ago. It always sends a shiver down my spine
gareth50046 1 month ago
I'm sure I remember reading Widor always complained many played this piece way to fast, he plays it here at a perfect tempo.
contrebombarde1895 2 months ago
Hoch lebe Widor !!
TheOrgelix 3 months ago
Somehow, this is more impressive than any fast recording of it. It's so much grander, and much more powerful. Being played by Widor, it sounds more like Widor (obvious, I know, but bear with me). Listening to other recordings is nice, sure, but listening to this recording just makes my heart lift.
rkolabhai 3 months ago
@rkolabhai I agree completely. There is a certain grandeur and perfection of pace that I've never heard from anyone else.
orson15 2 weeks ago
Try it on the chapel organ of Christ's Hospital, Horsham, Sussex, England. It'll knock your breaches off. Thanks for posting this, a really unique piece of organ music history for all to share.
simontcm 3 months ago
At 88 years of age when he recorded this--it ain't too bad!!!
AS909c 3 months ago
Proper performance is a variation anyway, suited to every relevant condition of the site. Widor was old when he played this. It really does take a young mind to improvise performances.
1emanres 4 months ago
This performance is just fine; surely the composer himself would know how to do it right!
mississippiorganist 4 months ago 4
I love it. Widor's execution is perfect. It is hard for me to put this into words if you have not experienced this personally but certain pipes "speak" best at a certain slower tempo if allowed to do so against the backdrop of the "tocatta".
ernestmskinner 4 months ago 2
now only if you could have him playing his allegro from the 6th symphony i would be the happiest person on earth. widor is my favorite composer. love his work. the best french composer of all time.
notredameswarrior1 4 months ago
The man is clearly genius even though I like E. Power Biggs interpretation better. One of my favorites.
sford713 4 months ago
Critics: the gold standard is the composer him/herself playing their compositions. Period. You want argue with the composer? You're a fool. Anyone can be a critic. You may like or dislike the piece, but always respect the composer. There is no "interpretation" when the composer plays his/her music.
TheWoodad 4 months ago 5
@TheWoodad well said
binky4647 2 weeks ago
This is the composer himself playing the Toccata. He is showing to the work the way that he has intended it to be played. Not to fast or not to slow, but just right. The COMPOSER is letting the instrument voice out every voice and sing for themselves. Don't anyone dare second guess the actual COMPOSER paying HIS own music.
selaromyar 4 months ago 3
Absolutely beyond belief that anyone can criticize the Composer and Artiste.I have always believed that classical music has a certain snobbery.Well i am just an ordinary person who likes some, not all Classical music.This is fantastic.
P4108Man750 4 months ago
@P4108Man750 Agreed! You would be quite surprised at the number of snobbish, arrogant organ/organist critics on Youtube who have the audacity to criticize someone on their own compositions/improvisations! The funniest ones are those who apparently met J.S. Bach 260+ years ago and know what tempo he wanted his music played at today. If Widor wanted to play his toccata at the speed in the video, so be it!
anb740 4 months ago
@anb740 I was talking with someone i worked with, about classical music,He was a terrible classical music snob,thought he was the only one allowed to discuss it.He declared that i didn't pronounce "The intermezzo from the Karelia suite" correctly,and gave me his superior smirk.A short time after i was able to prove him wrong,from a recording.Never did get an apology.
P4108Man750 4 months ago
@P4108Man750 Sadly, the music field is full of these types. Operatic singers are the absolute worst snobs I've encountered, and most think that all non-singing accompanists are beneath them. And anyone of these types who exude their arrogance in my direction will find themselves singing A capella. (and they don't sound so great with no music to back them up!)
anb740 4 months ago
Its always amusing to hear comments who think they know better than the composer! All experts. The man wrote an absolutely enthralling piece of music , he knew how it should be played anything else is a mere interpretation.
bobmattfran 5 months ago
So much for the speed merchants !! This was what Widor intended - obviously.
gjlander100 5 months ago
This Toccata sounds better at a moderate tempo -- many contemporary organists play it too fast. That being said, in 1932 he was 88 years old when he performed this, and the ravages of old age may have caused him to play the Toccata slower than he would have in his younger years. He resigned his post as organist at St Sulpice a year later in 1933; suffered a stroke in 1936, and died in 1937 at the age of 93.
yelwam 5 months ago
@yelwam
I think that you may be correct that C-M Widor played the toccata slower than he would have when he was younger. The score indicates quarter note = 110. In this performance, Maestro Widor seems to be playing slower (around quarter note = 90, yes? no?). Still, this performance was a treat. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
GiaoSuSW 5 months ago
If the Composer himself is playing this piece..then he can play at whatever speed he pleases..I think he should know what tempo his work should be played at by any half-decent organist..not armchair critics...THIS IS A BEAUTIFUL rendition
FletchScopes 6 months ago
wonderful!
yewtreelodge 6 months ago
Well said - speed is a personal preferance and for me, I feel this is a bit too slow but not stupidly slow but that's my personal taste. Some organists tend to go fast just because they can!
onefff 6 months ago
Fast or slow is a personal preference. The piece stands on it's own merits and the majesty of this piece comes through.....fast.....or .... slow. Either way, enjoy....
miesels 6 months ago
again, I NEVER listen to this piece bc it is played so ofter BUT in this case I was unable to turn it off.
justinkrasowski1234 6 months ago
Sounds perfect to me! Modern audiences have abuilt in preference for speeeeed. Rubenstein, the pianist, played slowly and everyone liked it.
justinkrasowski1234 6 months ago
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JJHFram 6 months ago
G-D's gift of music. Personally, I feel since he composed the magnificent piece, he was entitled to perform it at any tempo he damn well pleased!!! Bravo!
try2bgr8 8 months ago 30
@try2bgr8 well said :D
no66y666 8 months ago
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It is well known that Widor tried EVERYTHING to slow organists up in this work, but to no avail, because if they played slow their brother organists would say, they don't know how to play! Of course when Widor does it ....
meyerbeer13 8 months ago
It was well know that Widor tried EVERYTHING to slow organists up in this work, but to no avail, because if they played slow their brother organists would say, they don't know how to play! Of course when Widor does it ....
meyerbeer13 8 months ago
Actually, this is probably the best tempo for St. Sulpice. On a modern American organ it needs to go faster, especially in a place with dead acoustics! It would be horribly boring otherwise, played in certain churches where I've played. There is not one absolute tempo for a piece. You have to consider time and place.
churchwhistles 9 months ago 20
Sheer majesty
a glory unparalleled
Glenn
FromHolbergsTime 9 months ago
dbabel@sfr.fr il évident que ce monsieur avait le même âge que son tempo... mais, essayez seulement de faire aussi bien à son âge...!
SuperBabel2 8 months ago
babel2 il évident que ce monsieur avait le même âge que son tempo... mais, essayez seulement de faire aussi bien à son âge...!
SuperBabel2 8 months ago
This Widor worship, particularly as to the exceedingly slow tempo, is nonsense. By any objective standard this performance is on the sloppy side, after all he was nearly 90 when he made this recording and playing a 5 manual mechanical organ with all the couplers engaged. Not surprised it's slow and messy. We'll never know, but I'd bet it was faster in 1879 when he wrote it. BTW, Widor just wrote Allegro - editors added metronome markings ranging from 100 to 118. Widor plays 88 (his age then!)
gtimny 10 months ago
@gtimny I have to agree with what you say technically; but I feel that, despite age and infirmity, his artistry is still evident - as is the sheer love of music. Would love to have heard him in 1879.
ian1856 9 months ago
@ian1856 To have heard him in his prime, absolutely. Here he struggles so much it's hard to credit his artistry, much as we'd like to. This recording and 4 other "sides" were made in 1932 by HMV (His Master's Voice) which was a highly commercial enterprise. I suspect that some organ-loving producer said "Let's record Widor" and his superior said, "Is he still alive? Well, we'll only do it if he'll record the Toccata" and they talked him into it. He must've known he wasn't really up to it.
gtimny 9 months ago
@gtimny Actually, no. His revised tempo, was q=100. He originally had it as q=110. If you'd like proof, the mentioned revisions are available at the Werner Icking Music Archive.
JupiterIV 8 months ago
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@gtimny babel2 il est évident que ce monsieur avait le même âge que son tempo...mais essayez seulemenr de faire aussi bien à son âge
SuperBabel2 8 months ago
Truly - fantastic!!
trustne1vru 10 months ago
Widor played this tempo because her realized that in his original score too many organist were playing way too fast. This is elegantly played by the master. I have heard way too many organist play this way too fast. This tempo makes sense. You hear all the nuances and therefore you enjoy this piece better. Tres bien!
citarg 11 months ago
The only true and accurate version, from the master himself.
Absolutely breathtaking.
No other attempt will ever match this.
e192 11 months ago 3
This is the right "speed" for me. I have no idea of music, just 3 years of piano in my childhood, but I can see all the colors here and the sounds evolving. I hate the other performers, they destroy this masterpiece, it seems I am hearing an organ grinder.
quantumuncertainty 11 months ago
The Barker-lever system was one of the key factors . If you have ever played one of the organs with that action, you simply can't play this piece much faster--the Barker-levers won't WORK that fast. It would literally have been impossible for it to be faster Yes, his tempo marking is 100, and most organists play it faster. Tempos have increased over the last cent. in almost all classical performances.I agree--this recording is a treasure. I hope I can still find an organ bench at 88 yrs. old.
pajtijms 11 months ago
@pajtijms Si, on PEUT jouer plus vite sur une Barker. Voyez par exemple la version de Robilliard (/watch?v=N5z0HElBifQ) à St-François-de-Sales ou le disque de Pierre Labric à St-Ouen. Je crois plutôt que Widor a indiqué un tempo modéré pour des raisons d'acoustique.
chrpayen 11 months ago
Fabulous! To hear it as Widor played it is almost unbelievable now!
mcgill3432 11 months ago
I'm just happy to hear this work performed by its creator. Widor performing Widor.
This is the "ne plus ultra" interpretation of the Toccata. Thank you for sharing this
musical treasure with the world.
dieselheart001 1 year ago
As a National Councillor & Frmr Regional Councillor of the American Guild of Organists this is one of the best versions I have ever heard. We must not be to harsh by criticizing the correct tempo. If I am not mistaken, this was the same Tempo that Master Widor himself wrote, or it could be that he himself had to play a little slower for some health reason or problem with the organ or whatever reason. However, This is an Awesome piece and I love playing this piece all of the time. Thank you!
ARFRC1 1 year ago 2
How remarkable. Thank you for this, GrandCorps!
msatty1989 1 year ago
Personally, I was thinking it was in the accents, not the pace...
The wonderful thing about great musical pieces is that they give room for interpretation, so that we all may enjoy them; some fast some not so fast. Therefore (and not trying to be like hanging Jello on a wall with a thumbtack trying to please everyone) we must all enjoy that which is great, and try to emulate it.
huachafo 1 year ago
We must all respect the the fact that Widor was 88 when this was recorded. It is too easy to be judgemental. This seems to be the order of modern times, Everyone wants to be a critic....The music is awsome, even if you do not agree with the tempo. How can anyone critisise the accoustics....accuostics hadn't been truly discovered......I am a keen audio fanatic and would always have liked better recording standards....this is one of the better ones of its time. Listen and enjoy the nostalga.
wildcats20081 1 year ago
Thanks for this.Interesting, how rough the organ sounds - still musical, but a bit ragged at the edges. Difficult to take into account the circumstances in which this was recorded, and how it must have sounded without the effects of relatively poor quality equipment and the effects of age on the recording. In some senses, it's more impressive, especially as a 'voice from the past.' Did the uploader add the 'distressing' to the photo of Widor, subconciously, being influenced by this, I wonder?
Offshoreorganbuilder 1 year ago
I always believe that the composer's interpretation is never wrong-but, I also like Daniel Chorzempa's recording, which is very fast. The fact that this piece can be performed within such a large tempo spectrum, and still be beautiful and sound logical is a testament to the profundity of Widor's composition.
Neongrapes 1 year ago
@Neongrapes
Whenever I do not agree in general to deviate too much from author's tempo I agree to say that Toccata in Fa may be played also a little bit faster than master Widor does. But just a little. Keep in mind that it is played with Ripieno always on but in a minimal part, so it may be a problem to hear all the notes that tend to melt together because of some too high speed.
It is interesting what you say about the wide tempo spectrum that can be performed.
Very interesting.
SergioBonf 1 year ago
I'm really thankful he wrote this piece but it just doesn't grab me the way Diane Bish's version does. I mean it's his piece but for me personally the fast version is what I think of when I think of this piece
GoPatriots100 1 year ago
Voilà le bon tempo voulu par WIDOR !
Widor savait bien travailler les basses et le pédalier.
klodg 1 year ago
The Meister can play it any way he wants. Thank God he provided it for us. But I like it a little faster, a little lighter on the pedals, and with some rhythm change-ups. I'll cry either way, though. Widor is der Man!!
enviro6400 1 year ago
I like this tempo, too fast and one misses the beautiful idea of the pedal (F-f) as a glizando, as it was intended in a space of 7+ second reviberation. Of course, most churches/cathedrals don't have that kind of reviberation...so most organists, especially American orgasists just play it fast as a they can, as a "show off" piece and most audiences, not knowing any better, just think it's wonderful. Oh well, there's no accounting for ignorance or taste.
09WestTexas 1 year ago
definitely the best speed
TheKingOfAmazement 1 year ago
Awesome to hear the man himself play it ..i like it just a touch faster
but not the blur that most play it now
I think its all to do with the way you first hear it
the vid Widor's toccata from Wurzburg Cathedral is spot on
erlock21 1 year ago
BRAVO.BRAVO!!!!! MR. Widor! Thank you for not only writing this marvelous work, but for playing for us as well! And, I say that if you wrote it, you can play it any way you want the world to hear it! At 88, you are miraculous! I wish I could run up to you and give you a big hug!!!! What an inspiration you are here! BRAVO!
kasha1932 1 year ago
I reckon people wouldn't be so affinitive to this recording if they didn't know that CM Widor himself was performing it....just a theory..
aortablue 1 year ago 2
Simply astonishing !!!
horowitz109 1 year ago
I think we should consider "his age" in another sense of the word. Not how old he was, but the time he was living in. The pace was slower. Today it takes more to excite people. Organists play it faster today, not to show off, but to excite our jaded modern audiences.
churchwhistles 1 year ago
Allergrößten Respekt vor dem 88-jährigen Widor!!! Wenn ich mit 88 noch diese Ausdauer habe, kann ich mich sehr glücklich schätzen (Da kann man auch mal darüber hinweg sehen, dass hier mindestens genau so viele falsche wie richtige Töne dabei sind;)).
christian3790 1 year ago
As a National Councillor of American Guild of Organists, thanks for this post.
This is the tempo that I prefer this particular piece played, because as you play faster you get a workout, but your audience can't hear the piece in a whole. When slowed down, it allows for the audience to really understand what the music or "pipes" is saying. A very wise man told me this and have put into practice. Who? My Deceased Father, a Former National President and Regional & National Councillor
ARFRC1 1 year ago
I've always complained, this piece is played TOO fast. It's become a "show off" piece. The chord progressions and arpeggic accompaiment is missed when played too fast. Also, and most importantly, the pedal is to sound like a glissando from low F to high F, if you have the right accustics, of course. Therein lies the problem, accustics. I've never understood why churches carpet the floors, pad the pews, cover the walls/ceilings with deaddening material, then buy expensive PA systems?
09WestTexas 1 year ago
Lovely, just the right tempo, most people play this too fast, he makes evry note count played like this
MANTLEBERG 1 year ago 2
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The best played i ever heard! Widor on his own organ.
That is the right way to play!
What a Genius!!!
Widor is one of the best organ player that ever lived!
Telemaker 1 year ago
The best played i ever heard! Widor on his own organ.
That is the right way to play!
What a Genius!!!
Widor is one of the best organ player thar ever lived!
Telemaker 1 year ago 3
Nobody can argue that he composed this piece and played it how he wanted it but in this recording, he makes many mistakes and misses out some notes. If he was 88 when this recording was made, perhaps that is as fast as he could do it. I hope I can still play that well when I am 88. I would like to hear a recording of him playing it when he was younger. I am not sure how old Widor was when he composed the Toccata. Personally I prefer it a bit faster but not so much that the notes are all a blur.
goodchappy 1 year ago
@goodchappy I agree with you, but it's just one of those things where if you're really up there in age, you won't be able to play very well. That seems to be true for famous, world-known instrumentalists. It could be wear and tear on the body that contributes to that. With that being said, I think it's great to hear a recording of a very successful piece by its composer, and use the recording as a basis for how to play it.
polgarfan 1 year ago
A bit cumbersome, isn't it?
Arjunai 1 year ago
It's real great to hear the piece played by the composer himself. All I have to say
is awesome. Love those French composer's of the organ.
Psyche777able 1 year ago
I have heard this played at just STUPID tempos, and with no feeling at all.
I am not surprised to hear that Widor played it more slowly, with more splendor.
My favorite version was by Xaviar Derasse on an old Nonesuch album
called "French Organ Music of the Late Romantic Period". Derasse plays it
just a bit faster but with very much feeling as well. Rest in peace Charles. Thanks for some of the most beautiful music I have ever heard.
hagarus 1 year ago 2
@hagarus
Hello,
I just want to let you big guys know about that one can change the tempo in relation to the acoustic of the building. In this extent, there are MANY possibilities of good interpretation. I have also played it in a very dry church in doubled tempo, as it was awful to play it in the normal tempo: as a dry bath... (contradiction in adjection) In most of the performances posted on youtube articulation and rhythm are totally distroyed. Exceptions are unique. More self-critique!
Nysebi 1 year ago
@Nysebi Hi! I hope my interpretation is one of those exceptions. :-) (By the way: dry church.)
jan91sh 1 year ago
Finally the perfect tempo!!!!!!!!!!!
PEAinSwe 1 year ago
The articulation is so different from how most people play it... it's like hearting the piece for the first time!
Owdfolkie 1 year ago
I'm going to hear this piece this evening and I bet that head organist will play it much faster. But even so I have to admit he's master. Thanks for your music!!
dagisa123 1 year ago
Magic!!
Owdfolkie 1 year ago
It' so wonderful to her the ol' boy pay the Toccata himself...everyone always plays it so fast, like dear Virgil, Carlo and Diane...Why? because they can! But Widor demonstrates what he had in mind, which was that the F to f in the pedal was to sound like a glissando and the hand notes filled in the scale...which is what the organist produces when playing in a space like Notre Dame, 6 to 8 seconds reverb. What a pleasure to hear the master.
09WestTexas 1 year ago
truly wonderful and amazing!
underlever1 1 year ago
amazing
hunkatron1 1 year ago 2
Amazing
hunkatron1 1 year ago 2
Agreed. The best recording. Many many others are simply played way too fast. This is from the master himself and should be what we all aspire towards
hunkatron1 1 year ago
The Master.
iloveejh 1 year ago 2
Legend.
iloveejh 1 year ago 2
This is indeed a great recording and a valuable link to the essence of the composer himself. There may be a simple explanation for the slower tempo: Widor used a double click metronome indication. That would make his performance tempo here just about on. Probably Franck and Reger, among others, used the same system for tempo markings.
somethingjane8 1 year ago
@somethingjane8 Being popularized now by Henrico Stewen as 'the Straube Code' or something of the sort, I believe.
Brideshead09 1 year ago
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@Brideshead09 The metronome indication is quarter note = 118. Widor plays it at a tempo that is slightly under 100 for the quarter note. No connection with "Stewen's" double-beat metronome notation.
TheStraubeCode 1 year ago
@somethingjane8 No, the metronome indication is quarter note = 118. Widor plays it at a tempo that is slightly under 100 for the quarter note.
TheStraubeCode 1 year ago
Those that think this fabulous Toccatta was meant to be played at break neck speed give a good listen. And stop telling me to speed it up-NO!
southernboi59 1 year ago
What amazing talent!
lokotasioux 1 year ago 3
As National Councillor of AGO and Son to a Former National Councillor and President, Thanks for this post.
I Truly love this piece, I prefer to play it at the same tempo as heard here, because it allows the listener to fully hear all the pipes sing, when played at a much faster speed, not only do you get a workout, but the listener doesn't hear the notes fully to understand what the music is saying. I like to activate the 2 64' and 32' stops, and the 4 16' stops
ARFRC1 1 year ago 3
Dear willowthebored ,the words i told bellow came from Widor's mouth directly,he surely didnt move his hands as fast as he was young this is obvious and there is no way to criticise a giant like him at the age of 88,i am sure he played it faster in his younger age
tuxedomoon 1 year ago
Well, lets just say that THIS recording brought tears to my eyes and a chill down my spine. Don't stop with the tocatta, though. Listen to the whole symphony wherever you can find it. Listen and listen and listen to every interpretation, for they all have something to offer. Remember, no artist sets out to play badly. I despair of the harsh comments on so many videos. As though each performance were not an offering of one's self to the world! Grace and peace to you all!
tactilex 1 year ago 2
which organ was that
juaniluco888 1 year ago
@juaniluco888
This is Saint Sulpice. Not as loud as you'd think, is it? To be fair, Widor never even approaches the tutti in this recording, and it's about 90 years old, to boot.
willowthebored 1 year ago
@willowthebored I wonder why then people play this peice fast if it was wrote at a slow tempo...:S But I still like it a lot faster tempo-116 to 120 would be perfect for me (even though I'm only 14 and i still don't no how to play this peice).
juaniluco888 1 year ago
@juaniluco888
It can be very easily used as a showpiece, I think, and that's why people play it fast. It's acceptable to play it fast, I think, it certainly doesn't sound bad - it should just be known that this isn't true to the composer's wishes.
willowthebored 1 year ago
wow playing at 88 coool :)
Alain2884 1 year ago
wow playing at 88 coool :)
Alain2884 1 year ago
I think that this is by far one of the very BEST recordings of this piece. At this slow tempo, we can feel the "grandeur" and the majesty of this great toccata. Thank you Widor!
Organistcomposer21 1 year ago
Superb, of course, 88 years old !
I think it is possible to play a bit faster, but I say a bit, like Oosten or Roth, and it is not a cime.
Criminal is to play very fast this piece, like Cochereau or many american organists.
organum74 1 year ago 14
@organum74
HOLY WORDS, Organum, just holy words.
SergioBonf 1 year ago
@organum74 Look for Cochereau's version of this piece here on youtube. it is much like this, slow unlike the other songs he plays.
GrandOphicleide 6 months ago
@organum74 Cochereau is not very fast. the recording on youtube (1959) is only slightly faster than this. 7 seconds, to be exact.
gojewla 5 months ago
The true story is that when Widor finally convinced to make his only one recording,he said ok lets do it and we laugh about it afterwards,so he surely meant that this piece cannot played slowly but because of his age he couldnt move his fingers as fast as his youth
tuxedomoon 1 year ago
@tuxedomoon
Oh, he could move his fingers that fast. Every night on Christmas Eve until the day he retired he played the Variations on Puer Natus Est from his 9th symphony without fail. Accomplishing that feat at age 87 would make this Toccata a snap at any speed. The deliberate tempo is very intentional.
willowthebored 1 year ago
Great piece of history.
Personally i enjoy listening to Simon Preston's recording of the piece from the Deutsche Grammophon album.
JShobjj 1 year ago
Widor was much better at writing his music than playing the same.
I enoy his musical genius nevertheless.
Contrafidelis 1 year ago
A wonderful historical recording !
gerardbedecarter 2 years ago
I am absolutely enthralled with his tempo and articulation. Thanks.
frater09 2 years ago
E' un sogno sentire proprio lui suonare la sua opera più magnifica...grazie!
maatdoom2 2 years ago
the proper tempo, like this recording of Widor himself, can only be one that listens to the building and lets the organ speak like Widor does here. In St Sernin even this would be too fast.
cembalobill 2 years ago
I think this is THE BEST Tempo. You can here every single note! And that was the intention why widor has chosen this slow tempo ( originally it was written for 80 bpm )! So really good performance.
This music makes the world better :-)!
friedrichsacher 2 years ago 26
@friedrichsacher: What is your source for 80 bpm? (To my knowledge, all editions are between 100 and 118 bpm.)
chwidder 2 years ago
@friedrichsacher Thanks for this info. I do have a general question, though, (I am not an organist, but I do love organ music) wouldnt the echo in a church have an influence on the tempo chosen? In a very big church, like NotreDame, or St. John's in NY, the sound can, I imagine get rather muddy. SO a slower tempo can maybe help. Or am I wrong?
Malaka57 1 year ago
@friedrichsacher Acoustics play a very important part in playing this piece a dry room requires one to play it faster to keep it "glued" together. A very reverbrant room allows the player time and space to enjoy the piece. The room works well with the organist. Widor had the room...
mountainsong100 1 year ago
@friedrichsacher I think that this is not the Best tempo, but THE tempo.
Who can decide better than its creator which is the best tempo of a score ?
It is a fortune that this execution is arrived at our days.
THANK YOU GRANDCORPS.
I didn't know that a recording by Widor was available.
You did my day beautiful.
SergioBonf 1 year ago
@friedrichsacher His own metronome marking was 100 to the quarter. I've a copy of the score myself.
JupiterIV 1 year ago
@friedrichsacher ha yeah i love it how everyone is just converted to this tempo because its Widor himself playing his own work...i love it too!
aortablue 8 months ago
What wonder he could create, and this is the composer so one can figure that this is what it was intended to sound like.
I love how he blends the 16th notes together as if they were being played fast, but remaining at the speed he plays.
I work on this piece and often must stop and play at a slow tempo just to remind myself of what wonderful complexity and intricacies are present and how a fast tempo covers or cancels out what wonder the notes behold
Irmaherms 2 years ago
This gives me hope that I'll (still) be able to play the Symph No. 5 some 30 years from now. With any luck there will still be a few "real" organs around!
kentingtonallen 2 years ago
Impressionnant cette source d'archive!
Et puis quel punch malgré tout pour 88 ans... Je ne sais si on pourra en dire autant pour nous -même!
MrABBOHLER 2 years ago
He opens up the tempo toward the end -- as if to say, "I can still do it, you know." The world is so much of a better place because of this piece. Thank you, Msr. Widor!
CousinToGeorgeBailey 2 years ago
Thank you so much for sharing this with us. It is truly an incredible feeling to hear the master himself performing the piece he composed. This has to be the greatest organ piece ever written. Widor's genius will live on forever.
organpipes61 2 years ago
Uh huh! Nah, what yall beeaches gots to say!? The master himself plays it and lays the law! SLOW DOWN! hehe!
YAY!
DesireeDeFete 2 years ago 3
Bravo!
What I like about the slower tempo, is that the listener can appreciate the complexity of the "interior" of the piece.
While it may be slow, compared to the way it is usually played now, it is steady throughout..I doubt that the tempo chosen is dictated by Widor's age.
Thank you for sharing this,
skatesindreams 2 years ago 3
I'm glad I'm not the only one who needs to put in a little pause at 5.23! Respect to a towering genius, the numerous charming mistakes only underline how amazing it is that he could still play at all at that age. His playing in the closing section is deeply moving. He plays in heaven now.
1968mjh 2 years ago 2
@1968mjh Me, too!
You are so right!! I agree with that.
I think, Widor's genius will not die!! ;-) Now god is enjoying his music!
friedrichsacher 2 years ago
For me, so much depends on the action and the space...some organs and spaces just want this kind of tempo..my recording is on a tubular pneumatic...it just cannot go any faster...I like all of these recordings for what they are...I also like creation rather than reproduction..hence best and worst are not in my vocabulary..I personally like "high level" which allows for many bests...happy listening.. D
daviddifiore 2 years ago
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daviddifiore 2 years ago
semplicemente fantastico!!!! grazie per il post!!!!
rpk67u 2 years ago
I agree with polsterj, at 88 years this piece at 118bpm (as written in the original score) is so difficult to play..
messerg 2 years ago
This is absolutely the coolest thing in the whole wide world! The only thing that could match it would be hearing Joseph Leutgeb play the Mozart horn concertos, or Bach on his own organ. This shoves it to all those people that think faster is better. And dang, at that age, he is still pushing down those physically connected keys quite well. This is absolutely amazing. Thanks for posting!
cornophile91 2 years ago 3
It is amazing that we can actually hear this magnificent piece played as originally written. In the modern era though I do believe that Daniel Roth, Ben Van Ooesten, and Oliver Latry do play this piece the best. Especially with Roth and Latry's registration. Even though the Grande Orgue De Notre Dame is nothing of the orginal modified by Cavillie-Coll (if spelt right haha)
organmaster2101 2 years ago 3
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advisorC101 2 years ago
I wonder if he had played faster if he could. I mean, 88, how many organists can even sit on an organ bench at this age?
polsterj 2 years ago 2
this is fascinating. A composer's own interpretation changes based on how they feel and think from day to day, and their own revisions change constantly as a result. Plus the interpretations of publishers and other performers. It's what makes music so amazing a phenomena, the way in which a work will change and evolve through history long after the composer has passed on.
I'll bet he didn't play this the same way twice.
matmilne 2 years ago 3
Have a look/listen to Frederik Hohman playing this piece...best on youtube...
silverstartrucker 2 years ago
Please have some respect for the composer and let his recording be appreciated.
There are many other recordings that surpass his own.
advisorC101 2 years ago
Of course...many apologies...
silverstartrucker 2 years ago
Its fine, I should snap at anyone really. But its just that right now we are discussing the interpretation of the composer.
Mr Hohman is good but in the composers hands this is just such a different piece.
Thank you for understanding :-)
advisorC101 2 years ago
Oops... I made a spelling mistake there in the first line.
I meant to say I shouldn't snap at anyone.
advisorC101 2 years ago
I do like the slow speed, Hohman plays it about right , Diane Bish much too fast, Carlo Curley ridiculously fast...
silverstartrucker 2 years ago
I prefer Daniel Roth and Ben van Oosten but if only they had better equipment in those days but this is still the ultimate.
advisorC101 2 years ago
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advisorC101 2 years ago
The metronome mark on the score varies from edition to edition too.
Generally regarded as the intention of the composer, the tempo indicated is rather faster than in this composer's interpretation.
1/16 notes: can you really hear them, even in the quieter passages?
One French edition gives them all staccato, in another the first two are slurred. Can someone tell me exactly how CW is playing them here?
(Note that nearly everything played on this instrument has to be detatched to be audible.
1401JSC 2 years ago
The first edition I used was full of staccato.
Now I use the revised edition which has the slurred mordents in the first two bars as well as the accents in the left hand chords in the first six bars. That is what he is doing here but sadly the recorder quality isn't good enough to give us a definite answer. I suppose that is all down to interpretation.
Daniel Roth's recording displays ever aspect of the revised edition with makes that job easier for us.
advisorC101 2 years ago
My organ teacher had studied with Widor and this is the speed I was taught to play the Toccata at. It was never meant to be played the way some people gallop through it!
davidcsar 2 years ago
The "teacher of the teacher of" is not necessarily the best argument.
At a recent piano masterclass, a student presented 'Prelude, chorale et Fugue" of César Franck. The very emotional interpretative comments written on the page by the teachers of teachers since the venerable Franck had completely obliterated the notes, which were not really what the student was playing...
1401JSC 2 years ago
Some organist's do play this piece far too fast...
silverstartrucker 2 years ago
i think the most organists play this piece too fast
Guilloufan 2 years ago 2
Beautiful, beautiful playing, and the speed - of much discussion - just perfect. No-one can argue with the man who wrote it, and performed it!
waldenhouse 2 years ago 5
Interesting that the 32' bombarde is nowhere to be heard. Do you think that such power and low frequencies would have been detrimental to the state of recording art in 1932, or was it perhaps a simple artistic choice on Widor's part? Talk amongst yourselves...
1963mathetes 2 years ago 2
Vierne's recordings from Notre Dame several years earlier captured that ferocious bombarde very clearly, Widor's artistic licence being used here :-)
The most amazing thing is that he was 88 years old at the time!
JFSnail 2 years ago 4
That's because they placed the recorders in the stairway to capture the echo.
advisorC101 2 years ago
Well from what I know the recording engineers at St. Sulpice who are responsible for this faced many difficulties.
I have read an article that documents both Widor and the recorder's conversations before and after that. Widor thought this project was amusing.
We Can't really tell because to me it sounds like their device must have been positioned right beneath the organ just a few metres in front of the entrance to the cathedral.
advisorC101 2 years ago