SHOTOKAI KARATE-DO KATA: KANKU DAI

[hvalborg]

Lots of energy, flexibility and speed. But movements should be done correctly with health in mind, not only speed or relaxation. For example, there is some very unhealthy torsion on the knees which may not be noticeable when you're young, but will later in life come back to haunt you. Why practice things in a way that is unhealthy?

[MultiDickbreath]

@karatefella this is not shotokan kata. Look at other samples done by Japanese and Luca valdesi. This sample is the worse very performed. Don,t be a simple minded idiot to believe this idiot can even do karate. This is a joke! think this guy is. Making fun of the Japanese.

[MultiDickbreath]

Too much foot sliding and lifting of the back heal. Bad timing and posture. You are supposed to withdraw your foot after the kicks. Very disappointing. Your stance are over stretched and you have no Strength. The end posture is terrible. You don,t know the basics. Should not be black belt. You are not Japanese, I can tell. Please retrain again.

[Ronin6575]

From the Shotokan viewpoint, these movements look weak and sloppy and unstable. Since I have not practiced this way, it is only an opinion based on observing these videos .

[AndersonRox2011]

mt ruim

[shotojojo1986]

Im a shotokan guy. Looking at it yeah it looks pretty bad coming from us. But it almost looks simulart to Shoalin kung Fu. Really who to say in a real fight it Kata looks perfect you know? If you watch the Kata there are No pauses but just fluid motion from one to the next. Really is a different concept of what Shotokan Karateka might have popularized if it weren't for tournament rules.

[chapusa100]

I trained with one Shotokai master once, a 6th Dan, he was not sloppy! very strong and very quick, I have been doing Shotokan for 22yrs now. The sensei I met was working in Botswana where I live, for the Japanese government. So I trained with him for 6 months.

[koyakeicrows]

I think that is not influenced by shintaido.

because at biggning openig parms are more strong in shintaido.

And posture is more bent forward ins hintaido.

There is lot of difference between shintaido.

[NANDOTABAJARA]

a fita ta muito ruim

[watts18269]

I do Shotokai but our kata looks nothing like this...we practice almost identically to Shotokan, the only difference being we work on kata at different speeds depending on whta we want to focus on ie fast for more of a cardiovascular workout, slow to practice breathing etc. But it never looks as sloppy as this.

[marsensei]

this karate styke is so poor... anyway...!!! nice kicks.

[PzS100]

Founder of Shotokai = Egami. He has been choise by Funakoshi himself (just before his death) as doshu, shotokai is the way that funakoshi wanted for the karate do

[PanicusVulgaris]

Where did you find that nonsence???? Funakoshi installed Nakayama Masatoshi Sensei as the head of Shotokan before he (Funakoshi) passed away. Shotokai was founded years later, and has nothing to do with Funakoshi's teachings. The original (Funakoshi's ) Shotokan was carried on by Nakayama Sensei and his puppils: Kase, Nishiyama, Okazaki, Enoeda, Kanazawa, Shirai, Iida Norihiko Sensei etc.

[kawasakitester]

sensei Funakshi did karate-do shotokai was the association shotokan was the main dojo

shoto was sensei pen name and

kan =place, so shotokan and shotokai are the same

[richardshapiroII]

dude

go read the heart of karate do and learn about shotokai and its history.

egami had WAY more time with funakoshi than any of the people you mention. and earlier.

JKA changed the karate a lot, making it more "japanese". well, funakoshi was OKINAWAN.

and karate, politically incorrect as it was, was a chinese art honed and developed by the okinawans. JKA is most popular karate(and good stuff!), but Shotokai is probably much more in the spirit of what funakoshi taught.

[olev456]

it hurts to see how hes knees bend..... he cant do that long until he hurts himself.

[Azanthis]

sorry, his stances are what throw me here. not so much teh depth, because that's great for shotokan, but foot placement etc. also, high punches versus aiming for the ribcage or chest, and slow and fast motions. the fast motions seem almost a race to the finish, while the slow motions seem lacking of focus. almost as if they are merely for show. a nice kata though, one of my favorites.

[kawasakitester]

who is the founder of shotokai ?

[Dharma73]

Funakoshi Gichen is the credited founder but his students named the sub-system after his pen-name for poetry.

[richardshapiroII]

shigeru egami. he was a close student of funakoshi, pre and post wwII, and he did a lot of research into ki and how relaxation can improve functional power. so you see a lot more relaxation in shotokai than other shoto styles. Some of it reminds me of chen style taiji. good stuff, thanks for posting.

[aiko4321]

I think shotokai is influenced by shintaido, not with taiji.

[richardshapiroII]

aiko

I agree. but his main thrust of change in the method was to not tense up, and those changes in line with taiji principles. so you look at them, and you see a similarity. not lineage, function.

[riemman2]

@aiko4321 Shintaido was created from Shotokai, was a study conducted by Master Egami and his best pupil,the Master Aoki, in what was known as the Rakutenkai. Was intended only for high degrees within Shotokai, a kind of holistic evolution beyond karate, Aoki went Shotokai, transforming the study conducted in a style, which he call Shintaido, and taking the credit for creation. The biggest difference is that beginners in Shintaido are accepted, which means the loss of the original conception.

[aiko4321]

I am not much aware about the origin of shintaido. Just saw similarities between shotokai and shintaido. Thanks for your info. Regards :)))

[doh263]

Interesting to see you mention Ki; The firs move of kanku Dai is a chi kung movement. Kanazawa places huge emphasis on minute positional details of all parts of the body along with the correct breathing. He has thoroughly researched many styles as aresult of his appreciation of karate's roots in china and india.

[Azanthis]

lol, never ask a loaded question of martial artists....they can go at it for years. probably why there's still arguement of 'who' founded 'what' today.

[Goldvellius]

I practice shotokai. from video (i don't speak of technic with cam hehehe) i see he has done a good streatching. he has a good rithm but sometimes he is too slow and sometimes too fast. positions aren't correct when he run. the yokogeri with fingers of foot high in sky for example. often oitsuki and gyakuzuki become jodan and not chudan (they are chudan).

I like really much the high and long jump.

[billiardjay]

I shudder to think what his knee joints will be like in a decade's time.

[moritzkunow]

Where is the kime? Why is he bending so low? Doesn't that hurt and isn't that bad for the joints? Most people do karate either for health or for self defense. Judging from what this guy's doing, one can forget about the health bit. Self defense? Isn't bending so low counterproductive in a self defense scenario? Anyone has any experience of shotokai sparring? Do they use such low stances and dance-like 'strikes'?

[MsThumbs1]

it shows by the comments how much more intelligent and thoughtful are those who practice this sort of martial art.

[IWillNotConceide18]

So that's what is meant by "the lunging motions". Interesting.

[bezerk71]

Like hot soap on a wet floor....... As much kime as an reindeer out on the ice.... ;)

[N2shotokai]

Classic shotokai. Not the shotokai I learned but I liked his interpretation. My biggest criticism would be that the video was of poor quality.

I myself do not care for those particular shotokai stances, not my thing, but neither is kung fu, tai chi or flower arranging. It is just something different and there are weaknesses in every style.

[Ronin6575]

Constructive criticism is always helpful.

The problem with his stances are that they are unstable and dangerous to him.

Note that his feet are often pronated so badly that he has no grip on the floor with his rear foot. The stances are so long that it causes him to move in a clumsy manner. Certainly he has spirit and speed but much of it is wasted on his poorly connected movements.

[samadomohamed]

123

[zengeri]

The Shotokai group evolved along a different path then the JKA group. If you look at the way Shotokai people move and then look at Egami Sensei, one will see that they were directly influenced by him. The Nakayama group, JKA, developed seperatly. This discussion about hard and soft is point less. It is simply about different ways of moving. To a JKA shotokan person, Shotokai looks sloppy and unstable. To a Shotokai person Shotokan may look hard and rigid. Who cares? Just train and enjoy.

[aiko4321]

Very good and wise comment... (to zengeri)

[tksmurf]

@zengeri but shotokai is still shotokan right?

[Mr23748]

@tksmurf 

[Mr23748]

@tksmurf Shotokai means Shoto's group and Shotokan means Shoto's house. Both groups practiced Funakoshi's Karate but evolved along different paths. This is why Shotokai looks distinctly different then JKA Shotokan.

[zengeri]

Tt is very tempting to make negative comments on the above kata. However, I have another take. The Karate that Funakoshi taught when he came to main land Japan was Okinawan. Over the years he made changes to this Karate so that the Japanese people would accept it and it was subsequently changed further by his son. Many people studied this karate under Funakoshi. When he passed away certain groups took seperate paths. All have one root but branched out in different directions.

[ithacakarate]

I think I have to agree with fredevard throughout this whole intense exchange below.

On another note; I notice about martial arts today that it has been commercialized in America. Competitions and awards, medals and the battle of the ranks. I always question if anybody just wants to do karate without the ranking, without the competitions. Do it for the art and nothing else. Sure get some guidance from your sensei, but do it freely without having an ego. You will never progress with an ego.

[lu6fer69]

Je suis pratiquant shotokaien france region lyonnaise et la video est tres bien, et pour repondre a karatefella si il traduit, si tu est 4 dan et que tu critique comme cela tu n'a rien appris au karate mon pauvre, et surtout je pense que tu est encore loin de comprendre le shotokai ^^ c'est pas parceque vous "shotokan" ete dur est bloque qu'il y a plus d'energie ^^ laisse parler ton corps et tu verra

karatefella you is pathetic

[karatefella]

I looked at this video as a comparison between Shotokan Kanku Dai and Shotokai Kanku Dai - I was shocked. This kata is AWFUL.

Everything about it looks very weak and flimsy. I said to myself while watching "He looks like a rag doll being thrown about the dojo". No strength in Dachi etc etc. Just very very bad.

I'll take Shotokan every time.

Andy - 4th Dan Shotokan

[Shadowever]

I doubt you are 4th dan, and if you are, you have learned nothing...

[karatefella]

My current grade is Yondan (4th Dan). I been practicing SHOTOKAN Karate since 1980, my friend.

May I ask what is YOUR current grade ?

I assume you train with SHOTOKAI.

[fredevrard]

4th Dan! You re still in kinder-garden friend. Lower your ego.

I consider myself a beginner still, and have much to learn from other styles. My current grades are: Filipino Kali Majapahit (6th Dan), Filipino Kali Sikaran (4th Dan), Parker Kempo (6th Dan), Instructor Muay Thay, Instructor Pencak Silat tapac Suci, Instructor Silat Kuntao, Instructor Silat Titipinang, Instructor Eskrima, Instructor Taiji Quan (Chen style)...

Peace

[fredevrard]

Terribly closed minded for a 4th Dan. The hard way is not the only way friend.

Plus, if you know Shotokan history, you know that Funakoshi Sensei regretted 'till his death that his son turned his Shotokan into a hard-boxing-sports-oriented Karate.

You also know that Funakoshi Sensei was against hard katas and against competition. The first Karate-do competition happened 2 weeks after his death.

Cheers

[karatefella]

Okay friend.

Tell me which are the "Hard Katas", and which are the "soft" Katas.

How do you differentiate between "hard" and "soft" ?

I stand by my opinion that Shotokai katas (if this video clip is representative of them) are just awful.

For example, look how close to the floor his knee is in Zenkutsu Dachi when the Nukite is performed.

Have a look at the Shotokan version of Kanku Dai for an eye-opener !

Again - Kanku Dai Kata are atrocious.

[fredevrard]

Hi there,

My point was, has a 4th dan, I am not sure you should participate to the "styles war", but on the opposite try to see that they are part of a whole. Try to put your hands on the famous traditional story of the elephant in the dark... Very interesting. I personally don't like Shotokan, but it doens t mean I don't respect it. (I don't practice Karate, I prefere Filipino and Indonesian systems).

Cheers.

Fred

[karatefella]

If you don't practice Karate, then why did you post this clip in the first place ?

Karate practitioner or not, you must agree this is a BAD performance.

I don't know whether ALL Shotokai Kata are as bad as this - but I look at this through my fingers !

[fredevrard]

I didn't post that video. Just saw your answer while surfing, and was a bit shocked by it (from a 4th dan...)!

[ithacakarate]

I must admit, his stances are on the weak side, I do agree with you on that. I can say though that he has the right energy for the kata.

But I have to say AWFUL is a harsh word to use. Everybody has room to improve and I bet you do too. I know I do and I always will need to improve.

[danielfonseca1]

well if you ever see videos of master funakoshi, this definitely doesnt look like his movements. the tachikata is horribly weak and when you do kata you MUST think of multiple oponents, bending your back leg like that is exposing a lil bit too much...

[kamiarashi1570]

that´s horrible no kime no power nothing about karate and think that movements are a sure next pain in knees and low back and etc. no god for the body just see feet, back, knees, very harmful for body and incomplete tecnics

sorry shotokai people but its true ask doctors

sorry my english is no so good

[dawkinsfan41]

I think you're jealous

[patodefuego]

I think you are thinking in SHOTOKAN... but here it´s not that. You see here countinuerly power, and not a kime that only breack the move and you lost the time of the contra-attack.

As your coment:"sorry shotokai people but its tru ask doctor". Well, 1° most of the doctor don´t do sport and they don´t have a healthy body. 2° better to ask people they do long time of shotokai if they have problem with her body. At lest I thing that is your "kime" what is harmful for the body.

[kamiarashi1570]

Well thank for comment :) but if u si minute 1:06 thats is bad for knee and about the "most of the doctor" I know that that's why is select before who I ask :)about "ask doing long time shotokai" well I've seen what I said but obviusly they say that's no true but the bandage don´t lie, and finaly kime if u know how to use it's good for body and don´t break time, continous power see wushu that´s continous power or nishiyama,kanazawa,asai,okazak­i and etc., well thanks again and best regards :)

[Robiig]

I'm a oriental medicine doctor and a shotokai practitioner. We train low to develop power in movement and flow (shotokai concept of kime), so that this power and movement is retained when in a higher stance. From training in low stances, leg and hip muscles become very strong and flexable so that injury is avoided. From a oriental medicine perspective, correct qi/ki flow (kime) can only be obtained through flow...and not through stop/starting movements, hence the characteristic of shotokai kata.

[polar1933]

Pourquoi tant de commentaires ? aucune des multiples manieres de pratiquer le karaté ne mérite de critique tant qu'elle est exercée dans un bon esprit. Pour le reste, "style mou, style constipé..." quelle importance ?

[Hotora86]

Did I say "famous"? No, I didn't. I said "one of the best". Egami had more streetfights than you can imagine. He was an agressive, competetive young man until he discovered the true aim of Karate - peace and self-improvement. Maybe Shotokai kata do look like Shintaido, so what? Kata is also a form of moving meditation, it's not only physical training. Don't criticize that what you don't understand.

[Hotora86]

I've never trained Shotokai so I just DON'T KNOW if it's good or bad. All I know is that Shigeru Egami was one of the best Karateka of his time and this is how he sees Funakoshi's teachings. I may not like it but I respect it.

[Aelric167]

I do not believe that the way some of the Karate evolved in Japan and then throughout the world is correct or truly effective, but it does look good!

[Aelric167]

Okinawan Karate was influenced heavily by some of the martial styles of china. So it is surprising that so many believe that the staccato, jerky movements seen in modern Karate (e.g. Shotokan) could have ever evolved from them. The tensed muscle, forced movements are rarely, if at all, seen in the Chinese forms. Chinese forms are fluid and seemingly relaxed.

[Aelric167]

I do not believe that the way some of the Karate evolved in Japan and then throughout the world is correct or truly effective, but it does look good!

[aiko4321]

any of the okinawan styles are nt relaxd like chinese forms like taichi, etc, even okinawa karate is mostly influenced by chinese martial arts.. if so gv me an example.

[rob10silva]

A pior execução de kata que já vi na minha vida. Esse cara não é faixa preta!!

[Hotora86]

Egami is a direct pupil of Gichin Funakoshi and Shotokai comes from Funakoshi's teachings. Shotokan is Gigo's style, not Gichin's. Shotokai is closer to Gichin's style than Shotokan.

[aiko4321]

I hv seen funokoshi's kata clips and egami s kata clips. sorry, egami is not like funakoshi.. egami doesnt hv kime... he has fluid movements, which is nt in any okinawa karate style. tq

[Hotora86]

At least Shotokai didn't change Karate into a sport. And fluid versions of kata actually improve your accuracy and speed a lot.

And about chinese influences - don't forget that Karate comes from the original Okinawan martial art "Te" and other eastern arts, not directly from Kung Fu. That's why the movements are so different.

[johnpricekataoka]

I can see that trying to be pretty is not the objective here. What I liked about the kata, was how it was done like a fight and not like a performance. I think people in shotokan, should view their kata in the same way. It is not about looking pretty, it is about being effective. This is a MA to me.

[Normanskie]

I have trained in both Shotokan and Shotokai. Shotokai looks ineffective, but believe me if you have ever been on the receiving end of a punch, you'll understand, looks are definitely deceptive. Don't judge a book by its cover. I respect both styles.

[kordon40]

@Normanskie I started to train shotokai for about a week now. And I need an opinion for both styles cause I dont know if I stay in shotokai or change for shotokan. What do you think?

[tybn9]

@kordon40 I think it all depends what you're looking for and I'ld say on your age. Personaly I'am 46 and I enjoy a lot the speed and fluidity of Shotokai after many years of 'tougher' martial arts. At the end of the day what matters a lot too is the sensei and the dojo's atmosphere. Hope it helps.

[oleshotokan]

@kordon40  a week ???

[Goldvellius]

This is Kanku Dai Shotokai style of Shigeru Egami. This man is athletics with technics long technics e good velocity but some technics are CUT!!!

I practice karate shotokai in Italy...

M° Shigeru Egami -> M° Tetsuji Murakami ->M° Claudio Vacchi

Federation FIKTA

[royksk]

I believe that many years ago shotokai broke away from shotokan to remain more amateur. At the time it was hard like shotokan. Over time it has become greatly distorted by people such as Harada who use the priciple that the mind can drive the body through the target. This is why you now see overlong stances with flowing techniques, and exercises which damage knee joints. Definitely not a martial art.

[imagemattic]

"Definitely not a martial art."

Spoken like a true Karateka. I despair.

[christianbrecht]

I see you consider Harada a nut as well. We have something in common :-)

[beckyangel007]

i am in the JKS, and i have never seen anything like that, im sorry but it was rubbish, it was rushed, stances we're crap, dont even get me started on the kicks!

[THETOMANATOR2]

i do yhis style, it's progressed a bit since then but its still practically the same. all the guys who are saying finish each move, he is the whole point of shotokai is to be fluid, he finishes it but he isn't jerky in doing so so all the components link and it should feel just as though you're walking down the street

[eylulSerap]

süper gercektennn

[Shazor]

mmmm i dont know man... what association are u in??, i'm in jka shotokan karate and i've never seen anything like that.... but if your style does it that way then cool...

[vernalex]

He's doing it in the Shotokai style. It's a more flowing style than Shotokan is and that's why it looks so different.

[ToddKarate]

sloppy kata, rushed way to much... finish each move dude

[makai2006]

performance is good but the shooting is...