Sigh

[Kabuki0009]

Nope not at all me thinks *****stars; )

[RowanFortuneWood]

Thanks.

[manwaring]

Welcome to being a minority group. In the great tradition of British minority groups I think you'll probably have to move to America, and probably some place ran by Ron Paul. One wonders if this isn't an even worse fate.

It's funny, my home schooled brother just went off to London School of Economics (he himself claims Eton would have been better than homeschool) but I continually point out to him that this wasn't possible.

[RowanFortuneWood]

So it's Ron Paul or the British Department for Children, Schools and Families? Now I feel even more depressed. Interestingly fleeing to right-wing USA this is not altogether different than what some home-educators are advocating, id est supporting the conservative party. Although personally I would rather not defend the rights of one group by condemning those of another. So I simply return to an apathetic sigh.

[roentgen571]

I'm not sure what the hell you guys are talking about. I didn't say one word about children being the property of the state. I said they're not the property of their parents. They're not property at all, any more than you or I are.

[Tasmosunt]

If there are not property of the state, then compulsory schooling is illegitimate. Also if no one owns me, including my self how is some attacking my body illegitimate.

[roentgen571]

Neither this statement nor the question after it follows. They do not have to be "property of the state" for compulsory schooling to be legitimate. And it is illegitimate for someone to attack you even though you are not property because assault and battery is against the law. Assault and battery is not a crime against property, it's a crime against a person. People are not property.

[Tasmosunt]

roentgen571 i think you do not understand what property is. Property is the right of ownership/authority over something. If the state doesn't have this ownership/authority over the children, then compulsory schooling is illegitimate.

Your appeal to the law, only works if the state owns me.

[roentgen571]

I think we have a fundamental disagreement over the definition of the word "property." Your definition would mean that, say, you or I are "the property of the state" because we're required to obey traffic laws. I'm not aware of anyone who uses this concept of property.

[Tasmosunt]

I'm not saying that because people are required to obey the states laws, that they are property' I'm saying that the states laws can only be legitimate if it's subjects are the states property.

[Tasmosunt]

"I'm saying that the states laws can only be legitimate if it's subjects are the states property." To clarifie, i don't mean that all laws enforced by the state need this kind of legitimiser. I'm saying that the 'it's because it's the law' arguments require this legitimiser.

[roentgen571]

Sorry, I don't see how that follows.

[Tasmosunt]

What part of my argument doesn't follow?

[RowanFortuneWood]

roentgen571

I agree that young people are neither the property of the state or parents; I advocate parental rights only pragmatically; id est some parents will liberate the young, but the current government is only capable of tyrannising - in my experience so-called 'children's rights' have always amounted to such tyranny. However, preferably I would give young people complete autonomy over their education - I am saddened that you would not do the same.

[roentgen571]

I don't have any opinion on the current situation in the UK (I'm an American in California, and have not been following this issue in British politics), and have only been speaking in general terms. The problem I have with giving children complete autonomy is that they don't have the ability to make informed decisions about their educations. Are we talking about the age of 5, or 15? That would make a big difference in how much autonomy they ought to have, IMO.

[RowanFortuneWood]

It is my view that very young people require more support, guidance and care than older people, but not more control. A five year old is very inexperienced; left alone many people of this age (and older) would die and almost none would flourish. However, giving someone autonomy (and protecting this autonomy) is not the same as abandoning them.

[logicaust]

[1/3]

When you speak of the true definition of property, or one that can be mutually agreed upon, this is the point that so often derails a constructive debate. But, let's press on.

Semantics aside, the argument against home education (that you've currently expressed) is that you believe minors are unable to make informed decisions. I'm not sure whether you mean this in an all encompassing sense, or in a narrow sense (vis-à-vis autonomy to decide one's own education).

(cont.)

[logicaust]

[2/3]

As Rowan has explained, his arguments for home education are not borne only of personal experience, but from supportive studies (such as the 'Progress Report 2009' study by Dr. Brian Ray).

By saying you've not followed the situation in the UK because it doesn't affect the US, this is not reason enough to preclude discussion of it here, nor does its preclusion necessarily justify such your view; it does begs the question though, in my opinion.

(cont.)

[logicaust]

[3/3]

I appreciate homeschooling as an alternative to normative state education, in my capacity as an aspiring teacher and as a individual deeply curious of the culture of homeschooling. I also appreciate that there are justifiable laws that protect minors from accepting legal consent regarding certain actions (sex, for example).

Paradoxically, I believe to disenfranchise people of their right to have a choice in education is a grievous act that should be protested.

Peace.

[RowanFortuneWood]

logicaust,

Thank you for your calm and reasonable perspective on this; I also believe that society can implement some justifiable rules or laws to protect the young and that the priority should be one of enabling choice in education and the healthy development of the individual free from the threat of coercion (at the very least in extremes) and abuse.

[RichardRoy2]

Hi Rowan. Interestingly, I've seen the passage of laws on the basis of questionable statistical conclusions before. It goes on here in Canada. It goes on in the USA. In spite of laws already in place, the lack of enforcement is never addressed. Instead, politicians often use "problems" as political footballs to score votes by posing as protectors of the people with new "progressive" laws. Together, they seem to play well, the institutions such as the DCSF, Public School Board, and Parliament...

[RichardRoy2]

...(cont'd) I'd suggest that the governement, as with many institutions, have become self serving, and, therefore, do not serve you, before themselves.

[RowanFortuneWood]

I agree and I hope that this is one of those laws in which the matter of enforcement will never be addressed. Thank you for commenting Richard :)

[thatgaybloke]

It's not how a liberal democracy SHOULD operate. In a liberal democracy, people would be free to make choices for themselves about education.

Let's see about banning privately funded education? I'll bet THAT wouldn't get through.

[roentgen571]

The problem is, children are too young to be able to make informed decisions about how their educations should be handled. Parental wishes should be taken into account, but in the end, the children are not the parents' property, and their welfare (and that of the rest of society) has to be the overriding priority.

[ls1z28chris]

That is complete rubbish. Under your standard, children would become the property of the state subject to the whims of whatever political party enjoys a majority. When conservatives are in power, they would mandate education of their ideology. When liberals are in power, they would mandate education of their ideology. Meanwhile, parents would be sitting on the sidelines watching their kids get indoctrinated by a new form of BS every few years.

[ls1z28chris]

I don't think parents should be able to "educate" their kids with all sorts of insanity like creationism, but the alternative, to have the state mandate education and take from parents their freedom to educate their children in the absence of actual, demonstrable impending harm, is an even worse road to travel.

What happens next weak when conservatives take power and start teaching your kid crazy nonsense? You'll probably suddenly start singing the tune of liberty.

[Tasmosunt]

"but in the end, the children are not the parents' property," so there the property of the state?

[RowanFortuneWood]

Thatgaybloke,

You make a good point; this is very much a class issue. Most home-educators in the UK are working-class, whereas private schools are the domain of the upper middle-class.

[TheBritishWatcher]

Just for the record though with the internet it does open up a huge resource for people to learn wonderful things. I know ive learned alot more in the past few years thanks to the internet and taken ALOT more interest in learning about different things than i did in school

But i think school is a vital part of life and society, that shouldnt be opted out of. My main concern would be primary school, i think that should be compulsary for all. Secondary school or final 2 years is less worrying

[RowanFortuneWood]

Do you not concede that this is speculative; have you any research to indicate that socialisation is a problem, home-educators rely entirely on the internet, the home-educated are vulnerable to abuse, home-educators are extremists or teaching qualifications are necessary to successfully educate? All the research I know (e.g. Dr. Paula Rothermel's) indicates otherwise. Have you really investigated this issue sufficiently? Keep in mind that you are talking about the wellbeing of the young.

[RowanFortuneWood]

Community should safeguard against abuse and when suspicions arise they should be investigated. You seem to advocate presuming every parent as guilty until proven innocent; that is antithetical to justice. Also, the state often fails to detect abuse when it is in plain sight, as the cases of Baby P and Victoria Climbié so tragically demonstrate. And when the state is not failing to detect abuse it is sometimes implicated in it, as cases of abusive teachers demonstrate.

[RowanFortuneWood]

Furthermore, what of the failures in the school system? According to the BBC '71% of pupils admit being a bully' and according to the government's own Children's Tsar, Professor Al Aynsley Green, there is a bullying epidemic which impacts nearly every child - that is abuse on a massive scale. It is no surprise that Professor Jonathan Bradshaw's report concluded that British children are amongst the least happy in the developed world.

[RowanFortuneWood]

Finally, what of the opinions of the children? I urge you to watch 'home education rant' and 'HEYC at DCSF'. As someone who has been both in the school system and home-educated I will share my own personal views. The school system would have driven me to suicide; on this I have no doubt. And in that regard I know (unfortunately) that I do not speak alone.

You are entitled to your views and your concerns. I ask simply that you consider everything I have said carefully.

[TheBritishWatcher]

British children are so unhappy because we are a very negative country these days. Young people today think they have it bad yet they have more rights and are better off than ever before.

Anything is considered bullying these days, as if such things never happened in the past.. people have to get over such thing, its character building.

Schools are not perfect, but home schooling has loop holes so ive no complaints or concerns if the government ends it

[RowanFortuneWood]

If the young do better than before that is an indictment on our past; the notion that something bad can be excused by something worse does not convince me. The idea that bullying builds character is not supported by serious research. Brutality does not improve people, which is why brutal societies beget brutal people. And, more personally, the bullying I experienced in school did not build my character, it nearly destroyed me.

I cannot argue with opinion, we will have to agree to disagree.

[TheBritishWatcher]

This is just my personal opinion, ive not done any research into it and ive not read the report commissioned by the government. All i know is i have some concerns about Home schooling and id rather everyone go to school.

[Mastikator]

Yeah, liberal democracy is pretty synonymous with viewing humans as cattle :/

[RowanFortuneWood]

It certainly seems that way.

Thanks for commenting.

[TheBritishWatcher]

No problem with them banning home education. although i doubt the conservatives if they win office will support that, they are ok with home education

[RowanFortuneWood]

The conservatives do indeed support home-education (their policies will ruin a different set of lives), but I doubt that they care enough to change legislation Labour have already created. May I ask why you have no problem with the illegalisation of home-education?

[TheBritishWatcher]

I have concerns about home education for a number of reasons. First school is important not just for learning from text books but for social reasons too. Its good for young people to interact with different people in school. Important to learn team work etc.

The other reason is home learning is all too easy if someone just uses the internet for answers, if all they need to do is revise for an alarm its debatable what they are teaching.

lack of qualifications for those teaching at home is bad

[TheBritishWatcher]

an exam** not an alarm**

[TheBritishWatcher]

It takes away a saftey net that school provides for detecting abuse, atleast sometimes children can be noticed at school and things can be checked on at home. If they are just at home, what external checks are there for abuse?

Another reason is extremism, i am against religious schools too. I want to know exactly what people are being taught, and home learning seems to be one of the hardest types of education to actually find out whats being done.

It could be brainwashing kids into all sorts

[xwidget]

So often a study is commissioned to justify some political end. Such studies, of course, have a predetermined outcome to suit their predefined role. The trappings of science are used, more accurately abused, to provide the appearance of impartiality but are, in fact, malleable in the hands of a researcher that isn't.

I'm disturbed and saddened by the news.

[RowanFortuneWood]

Indeed, when I studied politics at degree level I was shocked at the way government reviews seem to be handled. Now, I expect nothing else than this kind of result.

Thanks for your comment.

[MrVisions]

Well  N0#6 you do realize that such measures were necessary to maintain the order of the country.

[Tasmosunt]

In my opinion, this is how almost all governments operate.

[RowanFortuneWood]

It would not surprise me.

[coltrane1966]

I suppose that's the scary thing about Britain your whole life could technically be voted away and it doesn't even have to be by the population as such but by a few politicians.

You can practically become a criminal overnight just for being yourself.

[RowanFortuneWood]

Indeed, although Britain is by no means unique in this respect.

Thanks for commenting.

[aaron0883]

i think if it was left for general vote in America home education would be banned. This is how liberal democracy operates. Tyranny of the majority. I don't know whether to 5 star or 1.

[RowanFortuneWood]

"Tyranny of the majority."

Only in a so-called perfect democracy, in the British system it is tyranny of a small middleclass demographic, organized citizen groups, corporations, unelected House of Lords peers and certain European interests.

Rate the video according to your honest appraisal.

Thanks for commenting.

[aaron0883]

no no ... I didn't knwo which to rate because it made me sad to rate such bad news with 5 sars. it seems tasteless.

[RowanFortuneWood]

Sorry, that was a tad dense of me. I have often had the same problem on YT; e.g. rating videos on police brutality.

[UnschoolingEagle]

Wow, I guess one good thing about America is its lax homeschool laws in certain states. I am lucky to live in a state where unschooling will be easy to do. I fear though that America will soon be adopting your countries ideals. This is because people are attacking homeschooling itself, and not the evangelical Christians who brainwash their kids... but that is a problem in America.

[Vogter2100]

Are you sure you are not talking about Denmark?

[RowanFortuneWood]

Not at all.

Thanks for commenting.

[WizardJim]

The British government represents no-one anymore.

[WizardJim]

The tories never tried to, labour threw their primary constituents under the bus years ago and the lib dems, who seem to be the only ones who actually be in line with most peoples' views, have so little courage of their convictions that they stand no hope in hell of ever winning an election.

[RowanFortuneWood]

An accurate appraisal.

Thanks for commenting.

[23discordians]

Oh come on mate, thats a bit unfair. The british government is perfectly willing to represent your interests, so long as you can pay for it. I suggest you get off your arse and earn enough money to have a say in this democracy!

[RowanFortuneWood]

I needed a laugh, thanks :)

[Awwa1]

No, no, no! This isn't how a "liberal democracy" operates! But then there's the problem. And until we "fix it", we're going to have to put up with having these barbarians raid us and any sense of a decent society, on a regular basis. My solution? We must eliminate the opportunities or the opportunists.

Be well and as counter to my closing argument as this sounds, I still prefer and mean it... Peace!

\A/

[RowanFortuneWood]

Thanks, I too hope this society can be fixed.

[zuiprax]

yes, it is how they operate :(

[RowanFortuneWood]

Unfortunately.

Thanks for commenting.

[nuclearnight]

Oh no. I'm sorry to hear this news Rowan. Is there any sort of organizing in favor of home education going on? Any groups or organizations coming out in support of home education?

[RowanFortuneWood]

An apt question; I believe that Home-Education Youth Council, Action for Home-Education, Action on Rights for Children and Education Otherwise are all organizations involved; there are also several mailing lists, many individuals and more than a few group projects. Still, it is hard; many home-educators lack the time, money and energy to defend their rights. And with a government that so casually ignores even those who do voice their grievances it all seems futile.

Thank-you for commenting.

[Orygyn]

It's depressing to see this happening. It's the 21st century and people are losing more and more freedom as time goes by. And people wonder why I despise this society.

[RowanFortuneWood]

Depressing is an apt word for the current situation.

Thanks for commenting.

[TheVikingNinja]

democracy looks great on paper, but in reality it seams to be nothing more than a tool of social manipulation and conquest. We need to establish plato's republic or something of the like.

[RowanFortuneWood]

I understood that in Plato's 'Republic' the young are entirely entrusted to the care and education of the state? I might be mistaken, but if not I would have to object to such a society. Regardless, I agree with the more general idea that philosophers should have a greater public role; Britain would be a much better place if the House of Lords contained more peers like the Baroness Mary Warnock.

Thanks for commenting.

[silentbob36]

That's how representative democracy in general operates.

[RowanFortuneWood]

Unfortunately I am more and more inclined to concur with such an assessment.

Thank-you for commenting.

[GrimJim8000]

"I do not believe the British government represents me at all."

I myself have been saying this for awhile. As I wasn't home educated I can't relate well to your points. But I understand your frustration. There are alot of people being let down, and I do not see any parties currently wanting to correct things properly if at all.

I second the sigh.

[RowanFortuneWood]

Indeed, I am not at all sure who I could morally bring myself to vote for in the coming election. Thanks for the comment and for joining me in sighing.