Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: Anton Batey vs. Paul Kujawsky (1/3)

[steute2011]

Israel wants the Palestinians to recognize it as the Jewish state for obvious reasons...so that they can negate the right of return. 

[AntonBatey]

@ForeverSwitzerland

I agree; as long as Israel is a “Jewish state”, it cannot in the same breath call itself “democratic”. I wanted to make the point but thought it would throw the conversation way too off-topic.

[azonshine]

@AntonBatey

oh really? where in the description of democracy does it say you can't have a "jewish" "muslim" or christian" democracy? (by the way there are officialy christian democracies nations)

[AntonBatey]

@azonshine

It goes against the idea that the state is a representation of the people, but rather “a” people. 

[azonshine]

@AntonBatey

israel gives equall rights to all it's citizens, israel allow everyone the freedom of religion.

so no, it does not contradict democracy.

[AntonBatey]

@azonshine

I’m not denying that. I’m saying that if the United States proclaimed to be a country that represents white Christians and makes all Blacks take a loyalty oath proclaiming such, it would contradict classical democratic values. Also, it’s sort of a bad joke to claim that Arab-Israelis are equal citizens to Jewish-Israelis.

[azonshine]

@AntonBatey

israel does not make israeli citizens make such oath. israel only makes new immigrants to accept that israel is a jewish state.

also, norway and finland for example are officialy christian nations, and both have a democratic regimes.

and if what you said was true, then yes it would.

and there are no laws in israel that discriminates non jews.

so no, they have fully equall rights

[AntonBatey]

@azonshine

Yeah, I don't want to make a big deal about this because I don't totally disagree with you. I just believe that a state announcing that they're a "X" type of state that represents "X" type of citizens contradicts democratic values. The loyalty oath is directed towards non-Jews and was pushed by Avigdor Liberman,and extreme rightist who publically proclaims he wants the Israeli borders redrawn to remove about hald the Arabs from Israel.Also,orthodox Jews don't have to say the oath.

[azonshine]

@AntonBatey

but every "x" type of state represents "x" types of citizens.

germany represents germans, although there are non germans (genetically) citizens of germany.

canada represents canadian, although "canadian" is not something that is defined by ethnicity.

israel represents jews, it's confusing because judaism is both an ethnicity and a religion, but basically israel is no different then any other nation in that matter.

[AntonBatey]

@azonshine

You’re straying at a gnat here. I’ll say it again: if the United States implemented law saying that new Black or Latino immigrants had to take a “loyalty oath” saying that they live in a white Christian country, people would be rightfully outraged. Especially if the law came from a known right-wing racist who publically claimed he wanted to redraw American borders to minimize the Black or Latino population.

[azonshine]

@AntonBatey

agree.

nevertheless.

there's nothing wrong with this law, considering israel is identical in every aspect to many other nations, only this law is different (also, america is not a nation that was established for a certain group of people, like most nations do)

[AntonBatey]

@azonshine

I disagree. The law is clearly racist. Orthodox Jews don’t have to say the oath (because many of them wouldn’t pledge an oath to any country); it’s directed at specific populations, and was pushed through by a right-wing racist, who, incidentally, is the country’s Foreign Affairs Minister.

[azonshine]

@AntonBatey

i don't reallt disagree...

however who is it racist against? considering non orthodox jews have to make that oath as well

[AntonBatey]

@azonshine

Orthodox Jews do NOT have to make the oath, which is partly why it's racist.

[azonshine]

@AntonBatey

i agree, but non orthodox jews do have don't they?

[humper9]

good job by the interviewer, i respect the truthfulness of the interviewee...you really get a peek into the mentality/thought process of these people...