- Can you talk about what you believe the role or foundation of ethics should be in a deterministic universe?
- Since you're interested in fractals, chaos theory and determinism, could you post your thoughts on what you think the real-world and mathematical significance of Rule 110 cellular automaton might turn out to be?
- Do you believe it could be possible for a deterministic system to ever break down or fail into some form of non-determinism?
Would you say then that a more accurate statement would be:
A) "I made a decision today"
B) "A decision happened to me today"
How do you personally avoid feeling "trapped" or "controlled" as many people would at the idea their fate and all of their "decisions" are in effect pre-determined?
Sorry if this is all Determinism 101, but I'm just trying to understand a bit more clearly how you view these things!
I would say, "I made a decision today." We make choices and we have WILL.. it's just not free. It's not a result of some weird magical power.
I don't feel controlled BECAUSE I'm wired to not feel controlled, just like everyone else is.
And I DO NOT believe anything is PRE-determined. It's determined as it goes along.. at least if we think of time in a unidirectional manner. I'd have to get into chaos theory to explain why I think it's impossible to compute the future.
- Since you're interested in fractals, chaos theory and determinism, could you post your thoughts on what you think the real-world and mathematical significance of Rule 110 cellular automaton might turn out to be?
Rule 110 is just another cool example of a chaotic system that stems from extremely simple rules and can become something that appears to be very organic in nature.
I believe the entire universe works this way, including embedded systems on every level except the quantum level.
One more such example would be Garrett Lisi's ideas about the E8 pattern. Perhaps you could talk about that a bit if you make a video on chaos/fractals/complex organics arising from recursive sets.
You ever see the film, 'Old Joy'? Recommended for a few reasons, but in this case for a moment where a character explains (without saying precisely so) that he sees the universe as essentially fractal in nature.
- Do you believe it could be possible for a deterministic system to ever break down or fail into some form of non-determinism?
um.. no. I can't imagine what non-determinism really is, honestly.. unless we're talkin about quantum probability stuff. Randy gives examples of equations with more than one answer, but I think in physical reality, the interaction of systems with other systems causes there to be only one possible outcome at any given moment.
You know that moment in 'Contact' where Palmer Joss asks Ellie Arroway why she, particularly, needs to be the one to go in the machine? I'm going to give you something similar now: why does the question of free will remain so interesting to you, if --like some other notable concepts such as subjectivity or consciousness-- such a thing can never be proven to exist?
It intrigues me that people believe in free-will, the same way it intrigues me that people believe in god or magic. We're wired to feel we have a "ghost in the machine", for which there may be a purpose, just as there is a purpose for being wired to accept personal accountability as a real thing. We wouldn't work as social creatures if we didn't. But it's REFRESHING to accept determinism and be comfortable with it, and still have pride, honor & self worth.
without a unified physical theory of the universe we cannot really make the statement 'the universe is deterministic' anymore than we can say it is indeterministic, since our current theories have problems with them we cannot say they represent reality on teh deepest possible level. im with you on the idea of free will being possibly incoherent, whatdoyou think about my framing of the question in terms of satisfying our intuitions about what freewill would imply rather than giving a definition?
Exactly! treating people as deterministic machines doesn't mean treating people like *simple* machines and is perfectly compatible with dignity, and with any kind of freedom 'worth wanting'.
Free will: I didn't hear a coherent definition either (except for the compatibilist re-definition, which doesn't count!).
Synth+cat+exotic controller: excellent video furniture!
Indeed. Simply put, we treat people as determinists (although it sounds funny to say that.. we normally wouldn't really say that except for the purpose of this debate), but it is no different than how randy and others treat people as if they have free-will. I honestly think it takes a certain type of person to grasp this concept.. to feel comfortable with being deterministic, and to even feel a sense of pride about it. We compute our own choices, feel love, all of the above. We're pretty neato.
imagine an ordinary coin (reality) it has two sides. You only get to choose one side either HEADS or TAILS.
If you choose HEADS you get True Free Will (action without consequence) at the cost of Solipsism.
And if you choose TAILS then you get True Individuality at the cost of your Free Will (Determinism is True).
If myself and other entities are real then it is only logical to assume that sometimes your (real) Will must subordinate to the (real) Will of other (real) entities.
Whereas if myself and all of the others are merely figments of your imagination (ie Solipsism is True) then you can do whatever you want to/with "us" and there will be no ultimate ramifications (consequences) as a result. I mean, how can anyone retaliate against your actions if no one else genuinely exists?
A few thoughts:
- Can you talk about what you believe the role or foundation of ethics should be in a deterministic universe?
- Since you're interested in fractals, chaos theory and determinism, could you post your thoughts on what you think the real-world and mathematical significance of Rule 110 cellular automaton might turn out to be?
- Do you believe it could be possible for a deterministic system to ever break down or fail into some form of non-determinism?
Thanks!
stevesincali 4 years ago
stevesincali.. i might make a video response to your questions soon, but for now...
- Can you talk about what you believe the role or foundation of ethics should be in a deterministic universe?
I can tell you what the role and foundation of ethics ARE in our deterministic universe. I don't think they SHOULD be any different. :)
For reasons which I think are obvious, we are wired with the idea of personal accountability. If this weren't the case, we wouldn't have evolved.
miselaineeous 4 years ago
Would you say then that a more accurate statement would be:
A) "I made a decision today"
B) "A decision happened to me today"
How do you personally avoid feeling "trapped" or "controlled" as many people would at the idea their fate and all of their "decisions" are in effect pre-determined?
Sorry if this is all Determinism 101, but I'm just trying to understand a bit more clearly how you view these things!
stevesincali 4 years ago
I would say, "I made a decision today." We make choices and we have WILL.. it's just not free. It's not a result of some weird magical power.
I don't feel controlled BECAUSE I'm wired to not feel controlled, just like everyone else is.
And I DO NOT believe anything is PRE-determined. It's determined as it goes along.. at least if we think of time in a unidirectional manner. I'd have to get into chaos theory to explain why I think it's impossible to compute the future.
Ok, Video coming soon!
miselaineeous 4 years ago
- Since you're interested in fractals, chaos theory and determinism, could you post your thoughts on what you think the real-world and mathematical significance of Rule 110 cellular automaton might turn out to be?
Rule 110 is just another cool example of a chaotic system that stems from extremely simple rules and can become something that appears to be very organic in nature.
I believe the entire universe works this way, including embedded systems on every level except the quantum level.
miselaineeous 4 years ago
One more such example would be Garrett Lisi's ideas about the E8 pattern. Perhaps you could talk about that a bit if you make a video on chaos/fractals/complex organics arising from recursive sets.
You ever see the film, 'Old Joy'? Recommended for a few reasons, but in this case for a moment where a character explains (without saying precisely so) that he sees the universe as essentially fractal in nature.
stevesincali 4 years ago
- Do you believe it could be possible for a deterministic system to ever break down or fail into some form of non-determinism?
um.. no. I can't imagine what non-determinism really is, honestly.. unless we're talkin about quantum probability stuff. Randy gives examples of equations with more than one answer, but I think in physical reality, the interaction of systems with other systems causes there to be only one possible outcome at any given moment.
miselaineeous 4 years ago
You know that moment in 'Contact' where Palmer Joss asks Ellie Arroway why she, particularly, needs to be the one to go in the machine? I'm going to give you something similar now: why does the question of free will remain so interesting to you, if --like some other notable concepts such as subjectivity or consciousness-- such a thing can never be proven to exist?
stevesincali 4 years ago
It intrigues me that people believe in free-will, the same way it intrigues me that people believe in god or magic. We're wired to feel we have a "ghost in the machine", for which there may be a purpose, just as there is a purpose for being wired to accept personal accountability as a real thing. We wouldn't work as social creatures if we didn't. But it's REFRESHING to accept determinism and be comfortable with it, and still have pride, honor & self worth.
It's not for the weak minded..
miselaineeous 4 years ago
without a unified physical theory of the universe we cannot really make the statement 'the universe is deterministic' anymore than we can say it is indeterministic, since our current theories have problems with them we cannot say they represent reality on teh deepest possible level. im with you on the idea of free will being possibly incoherent, whatdoyou think about my framing of the question in terms of satisfying our intuitions about what freewill would imply rather than giving a definition?
EverettsVLOG 4 years ago
Exactly! treating people as deterministic machines doesn't mean treating people like *simple* machines and is perfectly compatible with dignity, and with any kind of freedom 'worth wanting'.
Free will: I didn't hear a coherent definition either (except for the compatibilist re-definition, which doesn't count!).
Synth+cat+exotic controller: excellent video furniture!
(apologies if this is a double post)
bitbutter 4 years ago
Indeed. Simply put, we treat people as determinists (although it sounds funny to say that.. we normally wouldn't really say that except for the purpose of this debate), but it is no different than how randy and others treat people as if they have free-will. I honestly think it takes a certain type of person to grasp this concept.. to feel comfortable with being deterministic, and to even feel a sense of pride about it. We compute our own choices, feel love, all of the above. We're pretty neato.
miselaineeous 4 years ago
imagine an ordinary coin (reality) it has two sides. You only get to choose one side either HEADS or TAILS.
If you choose HEADS you get True Free Will (action without consequence) at the cost of Solipsism.
And if you choose TAILS then you get True Individuality at the cost of your Free Will (Determinism is True).
If myself and other entities are real then it is only logical to assume that sometimes your (real) Will must subordinate to the (real) Will of other (real) entities.
prowler3000 4 years ago
Whereas if myself and all of the others are merely figments of your imagination (ie Solipsism is True) then you can do whatever you want to/with "us" and there will be no ultimate ramifications (consequences) as a result. I mean, how can anyone retaliate against your actions if no one else genuinely exists?
prowler3000 4 years ago
I've been rearranging all these keys... deterministically! HA! You are my hero.
burnvictim77 4 years ago
heehee ;)
miselaineeous 4 years ago