Capitalism: A Love Story reviewed by Mark Kermode

[WAAAAAAAAAAAY]

It's Michael Moore's best film by mile I think. I don't have as big a problem with Moore's [kind of] grandstanding as Kermode does (although I get his point about Farenheit 9/11).

As with Kermode I'm pretty much pre-disposed to agree with Moore's thesis. I love the ending when he says we need to destroy capitalism and replace it with democracy. I'ma big fan of Michael Moore, but this is the only film of his I've seen where I agree 100% with it......

[blahgrat]

I always knew Kermode was a Mark-sist.

[Regenmacher175]

the problem with capitalism is that it invites corporatism bcause, hey, if everyone else can excell why shouldn't corporations? This leads to competition, which in turn leads to a monopoly of the biggest guys in because they don't like competition. This in turn leads to an oligarchy where essentially politicians are looking for out for big corporations, effectively eliminating the free market. This is happening now and it's time that we said "let's overthrow this shitty system".

[bobokk]

@Regenmacher175 What you've described can't be blamed on capitalism. If politicians are looking out for big corporations and ignoring the people then that's not democracy.

[Regenmacher175]

@bobokk then the US is not a democracy and most Americans therefore live under a massive illusion. The problem affects other areas. If individualism is celebrated there's no solidarity so don't expect changes in areas like social security, remuneration, etc. In essence, capitalism leads to an acceptance of the idea that the strongest competitor can become even stronger because he has the liberty to do so. he does, but as soon as other people are hurt, the state should intervene.

[bobokk]

@Regenmacher175 No it's not. Show me a country in the world that really has true democracy. Capitalism is not accepting that the strongest can become even stronger. It's the opportunity for everyone to get it if they want it. Obviously this gets exploited but again, that can't be blamed on the idea of capitalism. The problems are all caused by undemocratic governments allowing and freely supporting corporatism.

[Regenmacher175]

@bobokk Governments don't "allow" corporatism. they're pressured into allowing it by corporations too big to fail, but at the same time this shows that they're at least corrupt for taking bribes. If businesses,(who already have the strongest financial means) get the opportunity for getting even richer in a capitalist society they'll ensure that all profits go to them and that the corrupt economic system stays in place. the problems come from capitalism because it's the idea behind the system.

[bobokk]

@Regenmacher175 Wrong. No corporation is too big to fail. Look at what happened to Lehman Brothers - they failed and other banks just bought them up. In a normal capitalist system, no company that fails should be saved. It's the corrupt GOVERNMENTS who create the problems because they support failed companies, increase debt and transfer all the money to the rich through tax.

[Regenmacher175]

@bobokk yeah. And who corrupts governments? the guys with money. Who then owns the money that bribes politicians? Private big corporations. Wall Street lies to you people and cheats you out of a fair standard of halth and social security but if you'd raher defend the capitalist economy that spawned all these problems, it's your money and economic, social and political rights that are threatened and, sadly, mine as well, due to globalisation connecting all world economies. way to go, USA.

[bobokk]

@Regenmacher175 So you're saying the politicians have no choice? Bullshit. Wall Street doesn't lie about anything - we all know what they do. Health and social security is down to the GOVERNMENT. If the public votes for politicians and they don't do any of the things that they proposed before election then that is not democracy. You can't blame that on capitalism.

[Regenmacher175]

@bobokk Of course I can blame it. it justifies greed that we hide when we talk about technologcal and economical advancement. In reality, the free market gives greedy and dishonest people a justification for what they do: profit. Everything's allowed as long as they're just trying to use their money to their best advantage; And I havent even talked about individualism in capitalist systems. Don't defend because you like buying a new computer that's obsolete in 6 months already.

[bobokk]

@Regenmacher175 I bought this computer in 2005 and I have no intention of getting a new one unless it breaks down. Apart from obvious things like food, most of the stuff I buy is second hand which means I'm not contributing much to the economy. I also don't have a mortgage or own a car. If everyone did the same as me, the whole system would collapse. So in other words, you can't blame capitalism for "creating" greedy people. It's greed that causes the problem and governments exploit that.

[Regenmacher175]

10 people are consumerist capitalists employed by big corporations sent out to dislike this video.

[gnewt75]

The scariest thing in the world is a system or something that is deemed "Too big too fail." That's like saying, "I'm too much of an addict to get off drugs" if you have that attitude about anything, it's failure in itself.

[jonny616]

Without making any assertions, two interesting quotes to consider:

"The definition of fascism is the marriage of corporation and state "

"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power"

Both are from Benito Mussolini.

[AEF091]

I have seen nurses abuse the elderly in the worst possible way. It is also incredibely racist and if there was a system that ranked the service that we were giving then the UK would be pretty low. I think although Moore does point out some corruption in the US health care system, and legal irregulatities, which are a genuine problem and need to be sorted out, he should have said that the system does have potential to work as a private enterprise.

[AEF091]

I got to admit as much as I admire michael moore and do think his heart is in the right place, I cannot forgive him for saying that the NHS is heaven. On the contrary the NHS (should be called the called the national honky stable) is one of the most bigoted and prejudice organisations in the UK when it comes to the mentaly disabled and the elderly.

[tomkido1604]

@AEF091 While I think Kermode is right to point out that Moore often puts too much of a gloss on the NHS, those with vested interests in the US in keeping the system as it is and their ability to spread disinformation, means that Moore is given little room for nuanced argument over the pro and cons of our system. I think Moore is often forced portray things, as more black and white than they actually are, because that is the only way he can land his message (which I think as a whole is valid)

[soyousay18]

Mark WAS a Trotskyist?

What went wrong?

[wolfpack2013]

@soyousay18 He turned five.

[TheHappydead]

Id love to hear Kermodes thoughts on the Zeitgeist movies, something watched by tens of millions on the internet is surely viable for Kermodes attention

[tob1203]

ATLAS IS SHRUGGING

[TheLoneShooter]

america hasnt had a capitalist system for at least 100 years. simple as that. They have had a corporatist system, but since at least 1912 a capitalist system no.

[ruari76]

Really enjoyed the Michael Moore film, it's frustrating to see how blatant the wall street mafia took over and created a fictional system to bleed the American people dry....the only way to remove this injustice is by a revolution occuring to the whole system by minds and force!

[sulijoo]

I have 97 movie podcasts dating back to January 2008 if anyone's interested. I've removed all the movie clips from the broadcasts, just left the wittertainment; they're in WMA format, and I cleaned up the audio, so most sound better than the original uploaded MP3. They're only labelled by date, not movie. Contact me if interested...I'm assuming there's no copyright violation in doing this. ;)

[Ruffleswolf]

libertarians posting essays about the glories of the free market on youtube? I AM SO SHOCKED

why don't you go get your writing published in some sort of journal

[Sshelly34213]

Do you even know what a libertarian is?

[tooyjfwn]

Because youtube comments is the only place where they ever get any kind of reaction / attention. :-P

[HuxleyWasRight]

I think we can look at the rise of China as an example of what happens when you start to allow market forces dictate, compare china now to what it was under Mao, Chinese people have never had it better, sure they're far from perfect, but it's a whole world away from Mao's ultra socialist system, when China was an absolute backward hell hole .

[MOONDOGGIESWTF]

state capitalism =/= free market capitalism, Moore is a manipulative bastard, there's no way he can't know this yet he proceeds to make a movie which is basically one huge strawman.

[prognost]

I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know about Moore. But couldn't one make the argument that free market capitalism can lead to state capitalism by allowing large corporations undue influence over government decisions? Therefore, isn't it wiser to start with a tighter regulation of business practices?

[HuxleyWasRight]

@MOONDOGGIESWTF he does know it, he's admitted as much on the pathetic sean hannity show. Socialists don't like to admit that what we currently have isn't free market capitalism, most of them are fully aware this system is, at best, a mixed economy.

[Alimantado91]

The US could rightly be called an oligopoly and like every other state in the world has a mixed economy i.e, socialism for the rich and capitalism for everybody else. The result? - 1% of the population of the US is wealthier than the bottom 95% combined.

[Epihash]

I watched this video with my massive brain and I approve.

[HuxleyWasRight]

The problem i have with the film is it's title, Moore has even admitted himself the current system isn't capitalism, the film would have been better called "crony corporatism: a love story".

Put simply, if Capitalism was really functioning in the US then none of the huge "too big to fail" companies, which Moore hates, wouldn't even exist because they would have failed years ago without government bailouts .

The US government has been bailing out corporations for decades, thats not capitalism.

[HuxleyWasRight]

Had the US been a TRUELY capitalist system, all of those banks that failed in 08 would have disappeared, in fact not only that, but if it was a truely capitalist system then those banks would not have done what they did, they only went hog wild because they had assurances they wouldn't be allowed to fail.

THATS NOT CAPITALISM.

[markors13]

@HuxleyWasRight The only reaon they bailed out the banks was because otherwise America would collapse completely. Anyone with a vague knowledge of economics is aware of that. So the government bailing out the banks is self-preservation, a leading point of capitalism.

[HuxleyWasRight]

Well, they did actually allow one big back to collapse, Lehman Brothers, and the sky didn't fall in .

You're just plain wrong, what you describe is not capitalism, it's the mutant form of capitalism that has been operating post new deal .

if they allowed the banks to fail it would have been very bad, but almost two years on we'd be well on the way to recovery, thats free market capitalism.

how can it be free market capitalism when the government is so involved in setting interest rates etc ?

[lamtsite]

The sky didn't fall for you.

[HuxleyWasRight]

I'm not suggesting for a moment that it would have been a bed of roses to let the banks fail, a lot of people would have lost a lot of money, but we're now going to see why what we actually did was so much worse, if you think the worst is over you've got another thing coming, those toxic debts are still there .

Japan reacted to their financial crisis the same way in the 90's and they're only just recovering 15 odd years on, prepare for a decade of downturn thanks to the bailing out of the banks

[HuxleyWasRight]

In a real capitalist society "too big to fail" corporations wouldn't exist, if they had to compete in a free market they'd collapse within a day, what is being propped up is fake capitalism, socialism for the rich, if you will, it's corporatism, not capitalism .

I know lefty marxist/Trotskyists don't want to hear that, but it's the objective reality, our system cannot be described as capitalism, if you think it is you need to do more reading.

[cuntscab555]

aldous or thomas? or sally?

[MalachorWraith]

Agreed.

[etocadet]

@HuxleyWasRight fucking true capitalism basically means

you're on your fucking own no ones gonna help you we're actually gonna compete against you......fair enough

yet the top dogs who've clearly inherited their businesses from their capitalist fathers. when they cried to their dad for more money they now cry to the government

[HuxleyWasRight]

@etocadet Free market capitalism has been proven in history to be the best way of spreading wealth, the best way of creating jobs, and the very best way of brining prices down, competition is healthy.

Look at the mobile phone industry, you can now buy a phone for as little as 10 pounds due to the competition in that market, remember when they first came out ? you had to pay at least 100 pounds for a huge phone with a massive ariel .

[BloodOfRayne]

@HuxleyWasRight Heh heh! I remember those days. The brick with an ariel that used to weigh down ya pants. XD

[PaulDenton14]

@HuxleyWasRight

You're right. What we have had for the past 15 years is more equivalent to a twisted form of corporatism and mercantilism. Greed, manifesting itself in a Savings and Loan Ponzi Scheme, was responsible, and present in both American parties. Democrats such as Barney Frank, Chris Dodd and Clinton (who repealed Glass-Steagall) and Republicans like Dubya, Greenspan and Bernanke.

Capitalism: A Love Story has some insights but is polemical, hypocritical and has no grasp on capitalism

[madammao]

I can't wait to see this documentary film

[HotSpicyTasteGreat]

this was a amazing movie... I'm sorry that u missed the genius of bowling for colbine and faroheight 9/11 even if he fudged the faacts a little it does'nt take away from the, being great movies

[ScottishAtheist]

Unfortunately US media push an idea that it's anti American and against freedom to want cheaper health care.

Yeah beat your chests all you want while going bankrupt from medical problems, and the fat cats tweak their mustaches.

[Jcolinsol]

Let the politics firefight: BEGIN

[blightytater]

Appreciating all these uploads very much. Thank you BBC.

[kermodeandmayo]

Thanks. We'll have more tomorrow

[SethHesio]

@kermodeandmayo I love you BBC

[indianna22]

i can't get enough of kermode

[MOONDOGGIESWTF]

I think you're using some ex post facto reasoning there. Free market capitalism, i.e. a free market in the absence of government does not foster large corporations in the first place as the only thing protecting said corporations now is the state.

You'll find 99% of the time that the regulations you call for are just the product of another large corporation or political entrepreneur looking to use the state to stamp out other firms or competitors thus making them even bigger.

[HuxleyWasRight]

lest we forget that whole raft of regulations that WERE in place when the financial crisis hit.

As you say, all the regulations do is shield big corporations from competition, if they were subjected to free market capitalism they would fail and other companies would pick up the slack .

The same fake capitalist system is in place in the UK .