Roe vs. Wade for Men

[CCRoxtar]

The ACLU was *clueless* about this whole RVW for Men case? Or did they just turn blind eyes & deaf ears to it? It seems to me the ACLU is more concerned about the rights of women than about those of men; the only group to which men (& their female allies) can turn is the NCFM (National Coalition for Men).

[awsomescience]

The issue is Equal Rights, a woman can get abortions, even illegally upto 8 mos pregnant all the while the man wants the child with no legal recourse. So if a woman wants to have sex & not child, its no problem. For a man to have equal protection under the law is impossable, so here is what to do. With $3,500 you write the opposing attorney & judge a letter & say that you might become dangerous & unpredictable to unsaid persons if not left alone & they must cease & desist Immediatly, sht hapns.

[leebee39]

purrfectlycute has no comon since and i bet she aint paying it she getting it

[PurrfectlyCute]

It's "common sense" not "comon since". And I was owed $20,000 in child support that I had to sue to get. All this man had to pay was $35 a WEEK...that's it.

Anyone can pay that.

[1ss3seas]

Children are innocent and need to be cared for - but not all parents are innocent. We have laws that take a % of a man's income for child support. In the case of high income earning men the stage is laid for some women to target them for high $ child support. These women call these babies their little annuities because they pay out each month. These women drive mercedes -get plastic surgery and spend the childs money as though it is theirs. Courts need to limit the $ to these unwed mothers.

[coreydmont]

Lisasimpson I like your comments, but would you please complete your thoughts on this issue.

[bobbyjustbobby1]

And by the way, great conversation in both the comments. Great provoking video.

[bobbyjustbobby1]

It's an interesting case and I know there are exceptions to every rule and law. But I believe laws like these are geared for those guys and girls that don't always think about the consequences of their actions. Guys need to ask key questions before engaging in bedroom activities. The laws are in the books. They are not hidden. Some people enter into contract without reading the fine print. Guys need to read the fine print, IMO.

[crypter27]

These child support laws,infringe apon the civil rights of men & allot these antimale laws. Are created to attack,mens rights & their lobbied by radical feminist,these days women have more rights then men.

[Scorpi0]

I agree with crypter27, and at the same time I disagree, let me explain my point, some men really are bad fathers and some radical feminist women take advantage on that to claim on those child support laws what belongs to their kids by reason and right. But some of them simply abuse the right that the state grants them, clear this one would come to be another point of discussion.

[crypter27]

Rights aren't granted by the state,their granted by the constitution & its some thing,America. Hasn't followed,in awhile & thats individual rights & freedoms,my country is becoming a police state.

[Scorpi0]

Have to add that I coincide with said by Verlch it brings over of that every person is innocent until there is demonstrated the opposite, which happens, and here probably I differ with someone, it is so difficult to prove a case of sexual abuse, that the people often take the justice in their hands, which also is incorrect. And crypter27 is a shame that happens in one of the most progressive countries, the citizens need to exercise their rights in order that they do not fall down in disuse.

[Scorpi0]

oh my bad, I add a comment that I was going to say in the video of Sexual Assault and the Role of Men, it happens to me for having several opened windows :D

[annpetasupporter]

Well, he could have worn a condom. But you said she lied about herself being infertile??? Hmmm... Yeah, I think I'm on his side of this one if that's the case. If that part of it hadn't been there, I wouldn't though. That's a hard one...

[annpetasupporter]

Did the ACLU persue this case, and if so, do you know what happened with it??? I'd really like to know...

[Lucky4341]

Good post. You're very articulate and pose a great question. I wasn't aware of that case in the news, but I'm going to look it up.

[simpleRiot]

Ew. Cigar. Ew. Smoke. Ew. That horrible smell that comes with it. Ew. Kinda gay doing so many "ews". Ew... lol

Kinda sexy though... odd... really odd :)

[fmbighair]

hmm, very interesting...for the sake of being simple, i agree with your "it takes two to tango" comment...I mean, even if she DID tell him that she was on birth control, its still an individuals responsibility to know what can potentially happen when people have sex...

[Vnntbls]

For the time being, society fails to recognized the dilemma caused by Roe v Wade. By adding choice into the picture, RNA lineage loses relevance. Until the Law decides to seriously consider the situation, if a man truly doesn't want kids, he must take precaution. Get snipped, lock the soldiers up, do what you got to do to protect your reproductive rights. At a later point, it is possible to get the operation reversed.

[amb85]

The problem is, Roe v. Wade was wrongly decided to begin with. These issues (i.e. abortion, child) are (or should be) State matters.

[Mushinronjya]

amb, how do you figure it was wrong?

[nagaLilith]

Men's rights to avoid child care are usually covered by adoption laws. Parents can relinquish parental rights at any time, this relieves them of all legal responsibility. If only one parent signs the child in under the sole custody of the other parent, if both do the kid's up for adoption. The process is different in each state, but men do have a way out if they just look for it. The problem is education, most men just don't know what their rights as parents are.

[bitterpill2swallow]

It is the paying that is the issue.

[nagaLilith]

Maybe you misunderstood, if he files the paper work he would be under no obligation to provide money or assistance at any time after the fact. There is a problem of notification and women demanding years of backpay for kids she never told the father/s about, but many states have obligatory notification statutes.

I'm not saying it's perfect, but neither are abortion rights. Saying that men have no way out is simply not true where I am, but men must take the responsibility and file the papers.

[bitterpill2swallow]

A woman will say she notified the father when she has not. If she is given money by the father for the purpose of having an abortion many times she won't and guess what men hold the bag. Men are held to significantly higher standards and rules in this world than women are. In some ways women are children in the eyes of the law. When women make mistakes or are in bad situations the courts show pity on them and look for a man to cover her situation. Trust me men CANNOT get out of child support.

[roevswade]

good question, great video post : )

[Mushinronjya]

I fully support the national center for men and what they are trying to achieve. Men need equality when it comes to parenting. It's not fair that women can be intimate without worrying about parenting, but men cannot. Roe vs Wade gave them that ability, and now it should be extended to men. I have a video on this, and a long discussion about it.

[bobbyjustbobby1]

I do understand where you are coming from but the thing is we, as men, know all this before we even engage in a sexual relationship. We know we are liable under the current system. So, until we meet that one girl that we truly love and respect, just say no until the law is changed.

[Mushinronjya]

bobby, just because men have sex doesn't mean they want children. The choices is up to the woman, not the man. Telling men they shouldn't have sex, and if they do, they should pay, is complete bullshit, since women are the ones that have to throw the switch and get pregnant or go through gestation, not the man. I know about the current system, I'm talking about how it should be though.

[IbnSheba]

----I think you are both over-estimating the power of birth control and minimizing its costs. And yet, you seek to put even those costs upon others. No person has a right to have sex free of consequences.

----Worst of all you have skipped over the most important human response to the many complex problems of reproduction: the formaton of couples.

[bobbyjustbobby1]

Some people do have the right to have sex free of consequences, unfortunately

[bobbyjustbobby1]

maybe, but men still have the choice to have sex.

And the choice isn't always up to the woman. I've known woman who've left the decision up to her boyfriends/spouse, completely. I'm not saying men should pay. I'm saying that men know this is the current situation in our land. IF you want it changed, elect someone and have it changed.

as far as women going thru gestation...argue that with mother nature.

[stupidfeminazifoolz]

bobby : as far as women going thru gestation...argue that with mother nature.

the nature argument is played out. Thanks to mother nature women can't make a man raise his child or support it. Wanna leave that to mother nature we should.

[coreydmont]

That's asking all men to aspire to some serious spiritual shit. Seriously, asking all men to refrain from sex until they find right girl is so fucking unrealistic, come on. Men are paying for the choices of women! Women can enjoy intimecy wihtout any restraints. This is so unbelievable.

[PurrfectlyCute]

Men can enjoy sex w/o restraints also. It's called CONDOMS.

NO man HAS to father kids.

[coreydmont]

Don't be so simplistic, i understand that any person can refrain from almost any voluntary act. What I meant, which you act as if you don't know, is that after conception, for which both parties are responsible, ONLY women decide to birth! This, PurrfectlyCute, is the problem. Yes men should use condoms, no one's that silly, but women are unfairly allowed to be intiment unprotected, get pregnant, and decide soley whether to complete the pregnacy,

[PurrfectlyCute]

Tough shit, men can't get pregnant. That isn't a "problem" it's called biology.

[bobbyjustbobby1]

no true. I've known women who have left the decision completely up to the guy.

[stupidfeminazifoolz]

bobby : And the choice isn't always up to the woman. I've known woman who've left the decision up to her boyfriends/spouse, completely.

Yes HER CHOICE to leave the decision up to him.

You saying that is like saying "the choice wasnt always up to men with land to vote before suffrage i knew husbands who let their wifes have the final say and tick the box"

its not gonna fly.

As a man you DON'T have a choice to be a parent unless SHE says so end of story thats the reality.

[NoelBlueheart]

@stupidfeminazifoolz Sorry, but the sexes will ever be completely equal because of biology. Biology makes the woman the one who gets pregnant, carries the child, and gives birth. I'm sorry, but that makes it her right to control her own body.

[NoelBlueheart]

@coreydmont What's so unfair about allowing a woman to decide what happens to her own fucking body? Geez, blame biology you woe-is-me, bitchy whiners! The day you get pregnant and have to carry a child for 9 months and then either force it out of your vagina or have your stomach cut open is the day you get to decide. Until then, you can't dictate what happens to another person's body! So shut it.

[coreydmont]

even in the event the male has no love for her as a person or her any for him. What about the many instances where women decide not to complete pregnacies when the male wants the child? This is again a gross example of women's unjust perogative to enjoy UNPROTECTED intimecy without considering a potential father's human rights. Just wait though love, this will not continue to be the case. This law will be changed. Lot's of women are actually starting to admit that these laws are bogus.

[bobbyjustbobby1]

it's only asking SOME men, not all. and even then it's only those who care about the girl or baby. so not all men.

and waiting for the right girl is only unrealistic for those unwilling to wait

[kingjimsix65]

Interesting issue Lisa. my take on is that in this case there was no intent to decieve the man, in that case then the pregnancy was "an accident" and both parties have to deside to not keep or keep the child, it also being the case that the woman could not have a child this may have been the miracle she was dreaming of and its her body her decision.

[sirskeptic]

Does it come down to what you've agreed to?

If a woman agrees to dinner, I'm sure we all agree she shouldn't be forced into sex.

If a man agrees to sex, do we agree he shouldn't be forced into fatherhood and 18 years of forced support?

[Mushinronjya]

sirsk, very good analogy there, I suppose.

I like to use the: "you drink at the bar, the bartender gives you the alcohol. You go drive and kill someone. is it the bartender's fault for you crashing your car?" :)

[sirskeptic]

I worked hopitality for years, in 1998 we were all called to an emergency staff meeting and told that if somone we'd served got drunk and did just that, we were the ones who were now legally liable.

I really hate laws that make somone else reponsible for your actions.

[Mushinronjya]

Exactly sir. Thank you.

[lexy004]

Well I believe in put a condom or pay for it. Some women do get preagnant to trap you guys, so if you're a good man and you don't wanna be in a supid situation like this one, just don't take a chances.

[Mushinronjya]

lexy, so men should pay women for sex? And women can choose to be a parent or not, but men don't have that choice? So you're against equality, is what you're saying? Why should we "take chances", when getting pregnant and having a child is completely your choice as a woman? Why should we pay for your choices? It's time for equality girl.

[lexy004]

I just said, Don't take chances, put a condom. Is that so hard to do? If you do not want to be a father, do not take chances. Use protection. That's it.

[Mushinronjya]

lexy, I know the current system, but my assertion is that the current system is unfair. I don't need to be reminded of the current system. Now stop being a stupid bitch and listen to what I'm saying. Why should we pay for your decisions of getting pregnant and having a child, if we didn't want one?

[lexy004]

You know, I was just giving my opinion, so there was no need to call me a stupid bitch since I am not stupid nor a dog. Now, If a couple agrees on having children and he bails, he should pay. If they agree on not having them but still do, then she has to deal with it because he said no. The thing is, today, he probably will pay because of how the law is, so I shall repeat what I said, use protection because 18yrs is a lot of time. That's you're only way of making sure you do not have kids.

[Mushinronjya]

lexy, Yes, if he agreed and bails, he should pay. That's why men should opt-in before children so women know they will be supported. In a better system, we should change the law where men are only sought for child support if they opt-in to support children beforehand. Do you have a problem with this and why?

[lexy004]

I just said that if they agreed not to have children but did anyway, that the women would have to deal with it. I obviously meant that she shouldn't run after him for child support.

[Mushinronjya]

Yes, that's exactly what I want too. Your first statement of men having to protect or pay was a bit contradictory though.

[IbnSheba]

---When a child is born it must be cared for & funded.  Frankly I don't care what your intent prior to the pregnancy was. And no one has any way of establishing it. But when a man has sex and a child results (pity you couldn't talk with the woman, you know what"s her name?) he should pay for its care before the rest of society is asked to do so.

[bobbyjustbobby1]

men don't have to pay women for sex. men have a choice to be a parent or not. Men have equal choice in the matter. We, men, are paying for our choices. We choose whether or not to wait for that special girl or to just have 'fun'. We have the right to say no, just like women.

[Mushinronjya]

Actually, bobby, we don't have that right. Women have the ability to have children or not. We don't control their choices.

[PurrfectlyCute]

You do have the right to wrap your penis though...it's called using a condom.

Nobody can MAKE you be a father if you don't forfeit your sperm.

[christopherrrrrrrrr]

if a woman decide to have a child, she should be able to support that child herself

[stupidfeminazifoolz]

@bobby

This is where your really confused. You have the choice not to be a parent by abstinence and avoiding rape if you can.

You will however never have the choice to be a parent that choice lies with the mother via abortion legal abandoment or adoption. You have no say. The only choice you have during sex is the possibility of creating a pregnancy but rmbr always as a man, u Never have the choice to be a parent.

Now why do you think we have equal choice in the matter?

[bobbyjustbobby1]

Exactly.

[bobbyjustbobby1]

I'm not sure the analogy you've chosen is truly parallel.

There is no link between dinner and sex.

However, sex and pregnancy (save for new methods of generating a pregnancy) are linked.

[sirskeptic]

There is no correlation between dinner and sex, but there is a huge one between dating and sex.

If a man has sex (just as sex with no intention to have a child) and then is obligated to become a parent, shouldn't that extend to women too?

If we're NOT being sexist, doesn't that dictate that if a women becomes pregnant when she only intended to have fun, shouldn't she also be obligated to have the child?

I can't see a lot of people agreeing to that.

[chiefchumley]

I am also torn on this issue. The child should be cared for. On the other hand, If the woman has the option whether to support the child, the man should have it as well. I have a problem with abortion in general, but since it is a fact of life, it seems only fair that both parties have equal rights. That is what women are fighting for after all.

[IbnSheba]

---A woman doesn't have the "option whether to support the child" (use of safe haven is too unusual to consider). Instead, for a few short months she has the additional option of getting a medical abortion. It occurs within her body. And is not trivial. Certainly, it involves a lot more than mere words.

----You state you believe in equality. So I ask: Should both the male and the female have the same right to abandon their children? Should society encourage them to do this?

[chiefchumley]

Yes, i believe the male and the female have the same right to abandon their children.

Should society encourage it? What are you a fucking idiot?

[jenkinscrowe]

A man has a right to terminate any pregnancy that occurs inside his body, period.

[lisasimpson]

lmao

Did you see that 20/20 special about the guy who had his twin inside him? They all thought he was pregnant.... it was pretty graphic, they filmed when they removed all the flesh and hair and teeth and stuff.

[novamist]

True, true! :)

[MrZebra69]

It's so heartening to hear a female seriously consider this. That lack of control over my own destiny is frightening to me (I never want kids either), and I believe we males should be able to participate in sex without being constantly afraid, but I recognize that there are subtleties to the issue when it comes to retaining freedom for women as well. I'm still working on it too, lol. When it comes down to it, we're all in this together.

[lisasimpson]

It's a thinker, huh? I mean, I still haven't figured out in my mind what would be the best way to approach things so that everyone involved ends up okay, the baby included. It does seem that women have the upper-hand here, but at the same time, women haven't had that upper-hand for long, either. I'm all for equal rights, not necessarily womens rights. Does that make sense?

[Mushinronjya]

I really am happy to find a female who's objective. What do you feel about my videos?

[NoelBlueheart]

@MrZebra69 I know this comment is old, but if you're so afraid having children then get a vasectomy and/or use condoms. It's not that damn hard.

[Cziganybriella]

I just wanted to say thanks. As a male it's really awesome and heartening to see a female really giving this issue some critical thought and consideration, and being willing to dialogue about this. I've been struggling with the issue too.

[MrZebra69]

Oops, that was me. I was logged in as my friend. OK let's try that again...

[sirskeptic]

He agreed to sex, not to parenting. It's the same as a woman agreeing to dinner but not to sex.

In the western world the woman has ALL the rights. She has contraception rights, abortion rights, 'safe haven' rights, adoption rights.

She can walk away from her parental responsibilty at any time. The father can't. If Feminists wanted equality they would be fighting this inequality.

[IbnSheba]

---He may not have agreed to parenting, but his sexual act got a woman pregnant.  I think the lesson here is something rather old fashioned: Sex is scary! Don't attempt it with someone you don't know well.

[sirskeptic]

You have an honest mind. That's very rare - I married my wife primarily because he has an honest mind. I suspect you argue to find a truth, not just to win.

[lisasimpson]

Yes, I was really aiming to work this out in my mind and not choose a side to rally for. :)

Thanks so much for the positive comments!

[sirskeptic]

sorry, didn't mean to sound like I was pushing a side.

I used to supervise a large dept. and I had all the say as to what went on, I felt it was only fair that when something went wrong, the blame fell on me.

All the rights, all the responsibilty.

[jname96]

It's nice to see a woman who can see (at least to some extent) men's side of this issue. Reportedly, supporters of this 'Roe' for men were 50% women just about. MEN AND WOMEN need to have empathy for each other. Men don't know what it's like to carry a baby; but women don't know what it's like either to be completely deprived of that power but to bear half the responsibility (at least lawfully) for it.

[lisasimpson]

Thank you. When I was taping this, I had not solidified my thoughts on the topic. Talking it out and getting this type of feedback really made me see that this issue IS much larger than this case.

(I know never want to have children, lol)

[Fightingfajitas]

The ACLU is set on making everything immoral legal in the US. ACLU=Evil

[freelancercol]

In today's world women have rights. Men have only responsibilities. There's no equality between men and women. Men come second place to women in practically every area of life.

[StevenMRA]

To add to the above poster: (Neo)

Women can abort, they can give the child up for adoption, they can "safe haven" (just walk away), they can keep the child and ask for assistance and child support .....

I don't see "equality" in that in any way shape or form.

[bobbyjustbobby1]

Men can walk away, too ... before it happens. But I do see your point that women have options after pregnancy.

[freelancercol]

Everything neosoulcequr just said!

[bobbyjustbobby1]

Each of those guys did have a choice. The choice was to engage or not. Engaging means accept the possiblity, even if remote, even if the girl said it was impossible, that pregnancy could happen.

[menareangrynow]

@bobby

Then obviously the solution is for men to never have sex again....not exactly, stomachable from a societal point of view. What we need to do is address the state of the law now, and seek to reform it, so people won't be in fear if they have sex.

[bobbyjustbobby1]

yes, don't have sex again. the power is in our hands right there. I don't care about society. As men, we also have control over sex. we say no enough, THEY will change.

[NoelBlueheart]

@menareangrynow So you want to reform the law so men don't have to pay child support for their children or participate in raising it at all? Obviously none of complainers realize this, but even women don't have the right to refuse to pay child support. You just want to fucking do what you want with zero consequences. Sorry, sweetheart, but it's called life.

[neosoulcequr]

Women have the following ways of PREVENTING parenthood

1. The shot 2.the pill 3.the patch 4.morning after pill

5. ru-486 6.hysterectomy 7.abortion 8.adoption 9.condom

Men Have: 1 condom 2 withdrawal 3.sterilization

women have 9 choices or methods of preventing conception men have 3.I feel sorry for these guys who get trapped by evil women who ruin their livelihood and garnish their income for a child that they didn't have a choice in deciding whether or not should be brought into the world

[cpelpola]

This isi such a sticky situation. I completely agree with 56f2. If this mobes in favour of the father it leaves an open door for men all over the place to use it as a scapegoat, but then again, speaking from experiences I went through with my husband, Fathers are treated unfairly in the judicial system! I am just stumped by this one, I can feel him but there are so many underlying issues. Thanx

[knightchik]

If she was happy to be pregnant because she thought she was infertile-fine. Have your kid. Don't drag the guy in when you told him there was NO WAY you'd get pregnant and he made it clear that he absolutely wasn't interested in being a father if you did. He was an idiot to not wear a condom though. Would he have sued her for giving her the clap instead of a kid if she'd sworn she was clean?

[knightchik]

That said-I do think the man should have more of a choice than he does. The idea put up by the NCFM about renouncing responsibility BEFORE birth is feasible. Then they'd have to decide how far into the pregnancy is that allowed and that sort of thing. It will probably be abused but imo THIS case is an example of a woman abusing the current laws. -cont-

[knightchik]

The article I read said she was on bc AND had physical conditions that prevented pregnancy. I know that women take bc for other reasons than actual BIRTH CONTROL but if *I* heard that I'd be kind of careful about sex. The fact is-the courts don't care what she told you. You got her pregnant and now you're paying for 18 years. -cont-

[egraves]

reminded me of this story:

http://www.thelocal.se/article­.php?ID=2276&date=20051012

i had more links but the articles weren't up any more...also an interesting case.

[altebanger]

My son was born due to the good old catholic rhythm method overlooking the fact we were having pre marital sex which is also a sin in her eyes. I had the option of wearing a condom so I take responsability but what about those catholics who do one sin but refuse to use any other method of contraception? I don't see a clear answer either way but it's something to really think about, not just catholics but every man facing this.

[superloser2180]

Men do not have the kind of rights that he is "fighting" for. Given abortion laws as is he has no say whatsoever regarding the fetus/baby. Knowing that men should be more carefull who they sleep with. Easier said than done.

[bobbyjustbobby1]

True, and I do see your point. However, it has to be added that the rights we do have (or don't have) are on the books. Any time a guy engages, if you will, he knows ahead of time what the consequences are. He knows before hand that he has no say whatsoever. It's not like a judge jumps from behind a bush and says "Hey, starting today, you have no say whatsoever." Until the laws change, if they change, assume liability.

[56f2]

Assume no intent to impregnate (due to a mistaken trust in her infertility), then the question is 'what implies parental responsibility: genes or choices?' If a woman (or, when possible, a man) decides alone to bear a child, why would another parent matter? Are sperm and ova donors responsible for child support? Surely the responsibility lies with the decision-maker(s), and in your description of the case, the decision was made solely by the woman.

[lisasimpson]

What a great response!!

He's being forced to pay child support, and I can't fully side with the woman in this case, yet I am afraid that a ruling for the man in this instance could potentially harm the future for women....

[GBanville]

Today a sperm donor has no sure legal way to abandon responsibility for a child he "fathered."

In one case of a woman used ejaculate she saved after oral sex to get pregnant, then trapped the man into support. It too was upheld.

Men are held responsible based on genes, no matter the understanding or method.

One woman placed an ad looking for men to meet with and donate sperm, (naturally) she is placing that man in a dangerous position, he will be liable for support if she changes her mind.

[bobbyjustbobby1]

I disagree that the woman placing the ad in the paper is placing a man in a dangerous position. Why? Because all the guy has to do is research the liabilities inherited with such a position. He is only in a "dangerous position" if he goes in blindly.

[IbnSheba]

---What does the man expecting to opt out of child support long after the woman's choice of having an abortion has expired have to do with equality? Should anyone at all be responsible for the child?

---If the people who made the baby aren't responsible for its care and funding who do you think will be?