Pacing C&O 614 - Harriman NY

[typebangin]

Now available on DVD. See link above.

[PRRforlife]

I think that the NYC Niagras were the best passenger 4-8-4 while the Santa Fe 2900 class was the best all around 4-8-4. 614 was a great 4-8-4 but in my opinion the booster tractive effort doesnt mean anything as they only work up to 15 mph and are prone to break. Once this happens its up to the good old cylinders to pull the train

[UnIonPacCheyenne]

@PRRforlife The Franklin Booster on the 614 was operated up to 30 mph. But you are right, they are most effective at lower speeds when a 4-8-4 type was prone to slip. The 614 was a more advanced design than either the NYC or Santa Fe engines.

[889TS]

I rember watching saturday morning cartoons on cbs.Cbs would run a show called in the news.It was the hopes of building a modern steam locomotive.There she was in w.v. pulling coalcars through the snow.Her headligth shining through the snow.Now as for 611 i was on 1 of her last trains she pulled.I will never forgat her whistle.Talk about deep.I like them both big powerful machines.

[trainlover479]

GOOD NEWS EVERYONE!  614 IS GONA RETURN IN 2011!

[jarl44]

MR;Rowland is just an incredible man.. He operates the old girl like it's a race bike.

[sha1om]

I was one of those trips ...

Southbound into Tuxedo I feel the brakes go on suddenly... we slow down quickly, and just as I hear the talking defect detector on my scanner say "46 Miles Per Hour" the brakes come off again. I asked one of the on-board crew what that was all about, and he said "Well, the speed limit here is 45. Yesterday we blew through here at 60 and they gave us a ticket." I never knew whether he was pulling my leg or not...

[EssChee]

UPC, I was told 21 cars for the CSE, but anyway... I stand corrected.

I agree on the 614 being much more sophisticated than the T-1, with higher numbers on boiler output and horsepower (power at speed). I still need to be convinced of the weight and starting T.E. differences.

When all is said & done, I do admire the 614, and the T-1's. I worked on 614 in the 90's and 2102 in the 80's, and would love to see either or both run again.

[UnIonPacCheyenne]

EssChee, I just got an interesting email from an individual on a railfan site I belong to. This individual grew up in Pittsburgh, and rode both the Chessie Steam Special (2101) and the Chessie Safety Express (614) over the W&P Sub where the Streets Run Grade is located. He stated that the 2101 only had 17 cars, and the 614 had 24 cars on its train. He said the 614's booster malfunctioned on this trip, and other than the one stall, the 614 did not need helper assistance over the steep W&P Sub.

[UnIonPacCheyenne]

I've watched this video countless times, and the thing that really strikes me is how clean the exhaust is from the 614's stack. This thing is so powerful that it can pull a 20+ car passenger train at 70+ mph and it is not even working hard! Simply an amazing machine.

[SkipW]

Real Fine Stuff Man & Thanks 4 the Ride!

[amtraklover]

what about the N&W 611 in terms of pulling power?

[typebangin]

Without factoring in C&O 614's booster, N&W 611 has higher tractive effort due to smaller drivers (70 inch vs. 74 inch on 614) and higher boiler pressure (300 psi vs. 255 psi on 614).

As far as drawbar horsepower at different speeds, I don't know. Without reliable test data, these arguments about which locomotive is more powerful, faster, etc., are mostly just opinion.

[Bassfanatic94]

@amtraklover I would bet my money that 611 was way more powerful than this thing, but again its only my opinion. I would love to see this engine and 611 do a race on a level piece of track.

[UnIonPacCheyenne]

@Bassfanatic94 The C&O 614 and N&W 611 both produce approx. 5000 HP. The 614 has a slight edge in tractive effort due to its booster and a much higher adhesion factor (ability to pull hard without slipping). The 614 also has an edge in top speed. But, overall, they are quite similar, and both represent the pinnacle of passenger steam development in the U.S.

[Bassfanatic94]

@UnIonPacCheyenne Totally agree! Thanks for the info!

[UnIonPacCheyenne]

@sidekike3 There is nothing "normal" about the 614. It was the most advanced 4-8-4 ever made. Between its high speed horsepower output, its high strength alloy steel construction, and its all roller bearing running gear, I have no issue with the claim of a 120+ mph top speed.

[EssChee]

Great stuff, Mr. T...can't believe it's been 10 years ago for these trips.

Reading whistle sounded great on 614.

[Saugertiesrailfan]

lol, another reson you sould of taken the train!, BTW 614 is so owning you, lol!

[qlancer]

Which is stronger, locomotive for locomotive - the 2102 or 614?

[3254man]

I think 614 was built for speed and 2102 was built for pulling power. Tw different purposes.

[UnIonPacCheyenne]

The 614 is much more powerful than the 2102. The 614 has a much larger boiler, firebox, superheaters, and operates on a higher boiler pressure. The 614 produces more pull at low speed, and much more horsepower at high speed than the 2102.

[3254man]

2102 has smaller drivers and is more modern. In the 50s, the railroads started to need more power than speed. In the 30s and 40s, speed and bueaty meant everything.

[typebangin]

614 was built in 1948. It is one the most modern steam locomotives ever built. 2102 was built in 1945, using the boiler (or part of the boiler) of an older Reading consolidation.

As far as speed and power is concerned, railroads are always looking for a combination of both. 614 is most likely more powerful and also capable of higher speeds than a Reading T-1.

[3254man]

You also got to look at the side rods. The bigger they are, the stronger they are and can pull a heaver train. They cannot go as fast because of all the recipricating wieght as in the case with 2102. 614 has thinner driver rods which means there is less recipricating wieght and allows the drivers to rotate faster.

[EssChee]

The RDG T-1 has higher tractive effort, but the C&O J-3-A has higher drivers higher boiler psi, & all roller-bearing, for higher speeds. 614 was built for passenger service, the T-1's were freight engines. 2101 took more cars over the mountains out of Cumberland on the Chessie Steam Special, than what 614 was able to do 2 or 3 years later on the Chessie Safety Express. Different engines designed for different jobs. Ask Ross Rowland, he'll give you the best viewpoint on comparing the engines.

[UnIonPacCheyenne]

That's is not true. The 614 has more tractive effort than the 2101. The 614 can produce 84,000 lbs TE vs 79,000 lbs for the 2101 (both with boosters). Also, the 614 pulled longer and heavier trains up Sand Patch and the 17 Mile Grade at a faster speed that the 2101. Bottom line is the 614 is more modern, more powerful, faster, and can pull more tonnage that the 2101.

[EssChee]

614 data from C&O Historical Society.

Just to get the facts straight.

I'm a fan of both the 614 and the Rdg T-1.

[EssChee]

Class J3A built 1948, info from the C&O Historical Society: 614 Engine Weight  482,200 Weight on Drivers 285,200 Driver Diameter: 74 Tractive Effort: 66,450 ( with booster 78,850 ) Boiler Pressure: 255 2101 Engine Weight 441,300 Weight on Drivers 278,200 Driver Diameter: 70 Tractive Effort: 68,000 ( with booster 79,100 ) Boiler Pressure: 240

[UnIonPacCheyenne]

EssChee, According the the published article "THE OUTSTANDING FEATURES AND MANY LIVES OF C&O 614" by Eugene L. Huddleston of the C&O Historical Society, the 614 was built with 72" drivers, not 74" as you quoted. According to the report, the 614 produced 68,300 lbs. TE at the drivers, with an additional 15,000 lbs TE from the Franklin High Speed Booster for a total of 83,300 lbs. TE and a factor of adhesion of 4.29. Ross Rowland has stated the exact same figures also.

[EssChee]

Re-writing the history books is popular these days. When I get a chance I will go measure 614's drivers and see for myself.

I looked at the on-line copy of the "OUTSTANDING..." article you quote. No mention of driver size, and the only mention of tractive effort was a Franklin sales pitch.

If 614 is more powerful, why did she stall on the Streets Run trip out of Pittsburg with the CSE, when 2101 stomped over the top with a longer train on the CSS...?

[UnIonPacCheyenne]

EssChee, Sorry for the confusion. You can't edit after posting. I got the information from both Huddleston's article and Ross Rowland.

According to Ross:

Drivers diameter:72"

Weight on Drivers:282,400 lbs

Locomotive Weight:479,400 lbs

Locomotive & Tender Weight:865,530 lbs

Tractive Effort68,300 lbs at drivers not including booster

Ross stated that was the only time the 614 stalled on any Chessie trip, and it was due to a booster malfunction at that time.

[UnIonPacCheyenne]

In addition, Ross said the 614's boiler is much more powerful than the 2101's in steam production capacity. The Reading T1s were made from rebuilds of older, smaller locomotive boilers to save the cash strapped Reading money, while the C&O J3-a was a cost-is-no-object advanced design from the ground up. I'm not saying the T1s didn't do their intended job well; however, comparing the 2101 to the 614 is like comparing a family sedan to a Corvette.

[UnIonPacCheyenne]

EssChee, The C&O also had older J3 class 4-8-4s from the mid 1930's. The J3 had a different design from the more modern J3-a of 1948. The original J3 had a less powerful boiler, operated on lower pressure, and had a less powerful booster. They were rated at 66,000 lbs tractive effort at the drivers. Perhaps you are confusing the older J3's statistics with the more modern and powerful J3a?

[UnIonPacCheyenne]

Actually, I contacted Ross a while ago while researching the 614 for a project I am doing. He verified that the 614 is a much more powerful engine in terms of HP and pulling power than the 2101.

[SP4449Warbaby]

Hey, If you talked to Ross himself, 2 questions, is he going to restore the 614 anytime soon? And is he a down-to-earth gentleman like people said he was? I'm a HUGE fan of Ross and his 614, I even have a tribute video to the man, but yeah, I'm amazed by how much horsepower the 614 has and not even struggling at 20+ cars at 79mph.

[OldsVistaCruiser]

Great video!

What was your speedometer registering?

[typebangin]

It was so long ago, I don't really remember. If I had to guess, I'd say we were going somewhere between 50 and 60 mph.

[bushwacker2008]

This is a great locomotive. one of the finest ever built. but it is not the finest nor the best. Norfolk and Western J class 611 is. at one time the 614 was numbered 611. when it was in storage in Russell Ky. glad to hear that 614 may run again in 2011. on a cross country tour. MHO that N&W 611 would be a better locomotive to pull a display train across the USA. get the J out of roanoke and put in back on on the high iron.