I think Progressive Christians think to be true Christians, you have to be quiet and passive and accepting. Jesus got in people's faces when he saw something that wasn't right. He stood up for everyone and died for us. If you believe it.I don't really believe there is such a thing as a true Christian. They just say something to keep from feeling bad or embarrassed when someone actually says what they feel.
PuuuuhLEEEEEZE SHUT UP ABOUT THE BIBLE. This is an argument between people who have read 6 passages from the bible about stuff that is funny to atheists like God being unable to stop Iron Chariots in Judges vs Christians who have read maybe 12 verses on Christmastime.
Please visit my channel for the unpopular truth about homosexuality.
A person does not need hatred or any kind of phobia in order to acknowledge important differences between heterosexual attraction / behavior / marriage / adoption and homosexual attraction / behavior / marriage / adoption. Even non-religious people know this.
Homosexual activists, with support from the media, have succeeded at framing themselves as noble victims; it's an effective way to push a social agenda.
Silent complicity is in all religions. And not just about gays, but about anti-Semitism, atheists, hate for anyone not of their faith, etc. It's the biggest wedge in society today.
God is the reason we live in dismay It is his will that this world's suffering If we do not believe what you foretell We can expect afterlife will be hell You are the one who killed his own son We are the ones you're blaming it on Lust was created beginning with hymn When we indulge we are guilty of sin Torture our lives with confusion and lies Mass contradiction, religious facades BLAME IT ON GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LIAR
When Savage says liberal/progressive Christians aren't standing up to the Tony Perkins of the world, he's either ignorant or lying. There are any number of people in my own church (Episcopal) who have debated on CNN and other worldwide media the wingnuts on the right. If Savage doesn't know of any, he can do a little homework/reporting (so he doesn't look as uninformed as he does here) and contact the Rev. Susan Russell at All Saints Church in Pasadena, Calif., for starters.
The thing about "non-affiliated" people actually being Christians... Some people who count as Christian (I have membership records in a church) are atheists.
I agree with what you said. As a very openminded christian i don't like identifying myself as a christian because people think that makes me anti-gay or really stuck up. which is completely untrue. most of my friends are gay. heck, if i met the right girl I would have no problem with the whole fact that 'omg she's a girl'. I personally believe that love knows no gender.
@unclexbob, it is morality that short circuits love. Morality ties us up in a tangled mess of legalisms. The ethical focus is skewed; it has us agonizing over the trivialities of political correctness while we heap burdens on the poor and powerless.
The fundamental message of Christianity, indeed of all Scripture, is that we do not need a moral code in order to do the loving thing. "Love Life and your neighbor as yourself; These two commandments are the message of the Bible."
@JusticeCN Since God is "I AM THAT I AM", God is Existence. Hence to love God is to love all that is, which is to say "Life" with a capital "L". Understand?
With respect to the people of Israel being told to slaughter people they defeated, that was a necessity. It was kill or be killed by the bloodthirsty cultic tribes that dominated Canaan at the time. Think of it as a more summary version of the Nuremberg trials.
In general, a view of God as pollyannish just doesn't pass muster. Even Jesus refers to the brutal justice of his time in his parables by way of explaining God's justice. These have been misconstrued by atheists and Muslims as a command.
All, you will forever misunderstand the Bible if you think of it as a moral code. Now, I certainly respect the atheists' criticisms of the literalists. In fact, I share them. However, the atheists do not go as far as other Christians and I do on this critical issue of morality and ethics. The sin of the garden was morality and ethics. It is in this sinful world obsessed with morality, and thus with brutality, that the Hebrews lived and wrote the Bible. God is seen working in this brutal world.
@unclexbob, you are easily confused, but I will try to explain. The Sodomites acted like the Stormtroopers. They were raping and murdering innocent people. They were committing genocide against visitors. We should not shed a tear when murderers meet an untimely demise because that preserves the lives of those who would have otherwise been their future victims. The destruction of Sodom was not genocide, but the end of an ongoing genocide.
@cpklapper The people you are talking about in the bible were not actually Sodomites but rather they were straight macho men who got their pleasure in dominating men from other tribes, etc. This has happened through out history in battle when one group would beat another and then sometimes perform sodomy on the losers as a way to say that there were no longer true men.
@unclexbob, the bluff is: "I'd give anything that satisfies property Y to get X". It is reality, as in Murphy's Law, that what you treasure most will satisfy property Y.
The king, btw, didn't have to go through with sacrificing his daughter. His pride in honoring his stupid pledges was what killed his daughter.
The problem is that the right-wing batshit Christians discount the liberal progressive Christians. They take away the legitimacy of our faith, and that's where it fails. If Tony Perkins says that the liberal progressive types aren't Christians, his batshit followers listen to him and not to us. What are we supposed to do?
3:20 So, if we dug into the numbers, would we find out that Dan Savage is really Christian...errr, "cultural Catholic"... and not an atheist. News flash: there are a lot of religious people who *honestly* claim to be religious, but at some level (what one might call the subconscious) they don't really believe. They *want* to believe, but deep down know tthey don't have a reason to do so.
I have a friend who calls himself a "cultural Catholic." I'm quite sure he's atheist, but doesn't know it.
I feel the exact same way he does. Christians keep telling me that not all of them are psychotic batshit crazy fundies but really....why tell me? They should tell the those who claim to speak for them because if they don't, the hate mongers will continue to accumulate power and eventually it'll be too late for them to say anything. If they really cared for their religion and others, they would take a stand and not let this "sacred" thing of theirs be dragged through the mud by batshit crazys.
@DangerousTalk, the highly publicized literalists, both fundamentalists and atheists, take the biblical low road of deliberately misunderstanding scripture. The Bible is a library of books in which people of faith have found understanding or simply grappled with the problems and perplexities of life.
Take Job, for instance. It asks the still popular question: "Why do bad things happen to good people?" by asking the dramatic question: "What if God let the Devil torment Job?"
@cpklapper Sorry, but when the bible says to slaughter non-believers, I tend to think that the bible says to slaughter non-believers. Atheists didn't write that, Christians did dipshit.
@cpklapper Liberals are not alone in finding their own interpretation of biblical scripture. There have been over thirty thousand different denominations and sects of Christianity, demonstrating that this allegedly inerrant text is tremendously flexible.
Christians pick and chose which scripture to recognize, ignoring passages that are no longer personally relevant. In light of this, why not do as Dan Savage has done, and dismiss the few scriptural injunctions against homosexuality?
@cpklapper Atheists only "misunderstand" scripture in that they're generally trying to clarify the literalist's stated beliefs. They have to quote "misunderstood" scripture as touted by the literalists just to show them the absurdity of their position. It's not an atheist's job to "understand" scripture, they're not the ones using it to defend their beliefs (or lack thereof). Any "misunderstanding" you seem to see in atheism is only due to having that "misunderstood" quoted at them over & over.
@cpklapper It seems you are the type of guy who takes the parts of the Bible you like literally and the parts you don't like metaphorically and then you call it God's will. Job does ask an important question, but it also answers that question in a way that I find appalling. It also teaches that children can simply be replaced with new children with no harm done. Yeah, the Bible is a series of books and they are all bad. Some are worse than others though.
@DangerousTalk Not at all. You should try reading without the false dichotomy of literal vs. figurative analysis, but instead simply try to understand what is being written. The Bible is a collection of writings in which the Hebrews and then Christians found meaning through the ages. Some of it is genealogical, some historical, some poetry, some philosophical. The history can be gritty and gruesome like reporting at the city desk. The philosophy can be stark. The poetry sensual.
@cpklapper Actually, very little if any of the Bible is historical. Most of the "history" presented never actually happened. With the exception of the names of some real people and places, it is almost entirely fictional. The Bible is a collection of writings which were edited by countless people to the point that it is no longer recognizable. There is no single narrative and there probably never was.
@DangerousTalk there is a BIG difference between not letting grief consume you and "no harm done". There is also no doubt that, as a philosophical set piece, the Book of Job is all about Job. Everything else is a prop, even God and Satan. The dramatic question is: if you had everything you could have wanted and lost it all, would you curse Existence? In other words, how much of your acceptance of Reality is based on the way Life treats you? In the case of Job, it is no and none.
What is really disappointing is that even some of the most well known liberal Christians are anti-gay (I'm talking to you Jim Wallis). I am anti-Christian because at the end of the day, the right wing nut jobs have the biblical high ground in this fight. Christianity does promote hatred and discrimination for gays. So it really isn't Tony Perkins who is the problem. He is a symptom. The problem really is Christianity.
@DangerousTalk The Bible is a text and it's up to the person to interpret that text as strictly or loosely as he chooses. I see nothing wrong with a person accepting the good moral values within the Bible, rejecting the bigoted and old fashioned tenets it also spews, and accepting Jesus as his accepting, loving savior.
To say Christianity is the problem is to assume that people are attracted to Christianity MAINLY because the Bible is bigoted.
@borskyviolin Actually, the text of the Bible tells people to kill homosexuals. This is not some crackpot intrepretation. As for "good moral values" in the Bible, please be so kind as to explain what EXACTLY those are that cannot be found many other places? According to the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:18, you're supposed to KEEP all the OT laws that you call bigoted and old-fashioned.
The teachings of Jesus aren't all that moral and he certainly didn't condemn any of the OT laws.
@borskyviolin No people are bigoted because they are indoctrinated that way. They are indoctrinated that way because the Bible instructs people to value faith and indoctrination over reason and critical thinking.
@DangerousTalk - The problem may be with Christianity, but not with Christ. Those denominations which embrace the LGBT community are quite often led by humility & the spirit of peace, which is contrary to the fear-based vitriol that right-wing zealots usually perpetuate. Do not confuse spiritual benevolence with apathy or weakness.
@BroadwayUCC The problem is that the only information we have on "Christ" comes from Christianity. If you read the Bible, "Christ" is a bit of an asshole. But sadly, most people skip those parts of the Bible any only focus on the few things that the character says that are positive. Those sects which embrace the LGBT community are doing so against their beliefs and because of secular modernity.
@eMpulseNYC Well, there is the verse where Jesus says that you have to hate your family. The verse where he says that he didn't come to bring peace, but came with a sword. The verse where he talked about plucking out eyes and cutting off hands. The many verses where he talks about eternal torture in Hell. The passage where he insults a woman because she asked him to heal her child. The passage where he insults his mom. I am running out of youtube characters. Sorry.
@JusticeCN Okay, I'll play. What exactly do you think the context is for the Bible verse which states that if a man lies with another man it is an abomination and both should be put to death? I really want to hear this.
@DangerousTalk - As a member of UCC, we do NOT embrace the LGBT community against our theological beliefs, and if you attended the church, you would understand that. The core message of Christ's mission was mercy & compassion, and this is what we adhere to as one of the basic principles of Jesus Christ.
@BroadwayUCC ... or what? you go to Hell and are tortured for all eternity? That is the real message of the New Testament. Believe or be tortured! I can't speak for your church, but having read the Bible, I can say that Christianity is an immoral religion full of hate and falsehoods. Christianity has more plot holes an a Michael Bay movie.
@DangerousTalk Yet you are telling us that your belief system simply doesn't consist of Christianity. . . not all belief systems are the problem. I'm a gay Christian who will, as long as I live, refuse to deny my belief of God. To me, it's just looking beyond the fucked up, flawed beings that humans are and putting everything before the deity you worship (not YOU, but just general people). I know many gays who hold fast to their faith, varying from Muslim to Pentecostal to Catholic.
@welsj91 I don't know why any gay person would worship a deity that commands that being gay is an abomination and should be put to death. Why would you "hold fast" to such a belief? Even if you (the general you) actually believed such a ridiculous deity existed, I could never worship such a being. I certainly could never worship a deity that holds that I and everyone I know and love are evil sinners. But you are welcome to your ridiculous beliefs, just don't expect me not to criticize them.
@DangerousTalk You're making it sound so black and white, when in fact the world is full of grey. I wasn't trying to argue with you, I was just stating my point and my beliefs. I believe in the God that promised salvation to all. I'll be the first to say that I think a part of Christians are just full of bullsh*t. If the Bible is God's word, and God is so complex, then no one can interpret it for what it truly is and we're all entitled to our own interpretations.
@DangerousTalk Again, I hope nothing I said is coming across as an attack to you or atheists. Honestly, I've gotten more sympathy from atheists than Christians (aside from the accepting/welcoming ones), so I'm not here to judge anyone. I'm not here to criticize you or attempt to convert you from your 'horrible' atheism. The faith of Christianity just so happens to bring me peace, and it's how I deal with the world. It's more complex than it seems.
@DangerousTalk I'd like to hear more about your opinion and beliefs, so whenever you have more time, send me a message if you can. I like learning about other people's beliefs and opinions. I take a little bit of everything to shape my faith, and atheism is no exception.
@DangerousTalk The thing is, it's the fundamentalist Christians who quote Leviticus where it says gays should be put to death, but Leviticus also says you should be put to death for things that those same fundamentalist Christians do every day (like eating pork/shellfish, shaving your beard, blaspheming, wearing clothes made of more than one material woven together, that you should have slaves from neighboring countries, etc etc). They're total hypocrites and haven't read the Bible.
@DangerousTalk What it comes down to is that Leviticus, and a whole lot of chapters in the Old Testament, are outdated and irrelevant to modern Christianity, yet hypocritical bigots like to quote them for their own gain. Jesus said the most important things in the world were 1) to love God above all, and 2) to love your neighbor as yourself. Perhaps @welsj91, like most liberal Christians, finds comfort in this message, and chooses to ignore the rest of the bullshit. If only more people would!
@annielouuu Jesus also said to hate your family and chop off your hands and poke out your eyes. The message of the New Testament is belief or be tortured for all eternity. Not a message I agree with. So no, even if I believed God existed (which i don't) I certainly wouldn't love him above my family, friends, and loved ones.
@DangerousTalk I'm not saying you have to believe or agree, just explaining why some people do :) And the hands and eyes thing was not meant literally, it's a metaphor for thinking about what caused you to sin so you know how to stop. The 'family hating' is interesting too, the original Greek word, miseo, doesn't necessarily mean hate, it's more of a 'love less than me' meaning (as in love God above your family, which you don't agree with, that's fine) but it doesn't mean hate.
@annielouuu I have read the context and it really doesn't seem to be metaphorical. The Jesus of the Bible believed in Hell and he believe would be better off missing limbs than having their soul tortured for all eternity. There is no metaphor there. Also, what kind of moral person would demand that you love him more than you love your own family? No moral person would be that egotistical. Don't try to make excuses for this immoral crap or those who follow it.
@DangerousTalk I'm not making excuses for it, I'm just trying to explain different points of view and have an adult conversation. But I promise you he was speaking figuratively, Jesus was pretty clear on not harming yourself on purpose and treating your body as a temple with respect. But yeah, I'm not making excuses, just saying people believe different things, but I think its more productive to be respectful of people's beliefs so we can work together to protect the gay community
@annielouuu I'm going to call BS here. First, the context of that verse makes it clear that Jesus values the soul more than the body. That was the point of the verse. Second, you talk about respect for people's beliefs, but neither of us respect the beliefs of those who hate gays, blacks, or anyone else. And why should we respect those beliefs? Those beliefs are not respectable. So when people believe that other people should be tortured for all eternity, I will not respect that.
@annielouuu "attack people who are on my side?" My side is for everyone to reject the hateful ideas of the Bible. Criticizing ridiculous and hateful ideas is not "attacking people." Attacking people is why Christians beat the shit out of those who they consider "sinners."
@DangerousTalk Come on, we're both against hate and bigotry. We might express it in different ways, but essentially we're on the same side. And I'm listening to your opinions, they're valuable and I'll think about them whenever I come up against fundamentalists, so thank you
@annielouuu I'm not talking about fundamentalists. The central message of Christianity is that everyone is evil and will be tortured for all eternity unless they worship Jesus. That isn't fundamentalism, that is mainstream Christianity. Mainstream Christianity also teaches that belief on insufficient evidence is a virtue. I don't accept that. Christianity is a hateful and bigoted religion. The fundamentalists just call more attention to those aspects but they are always there.
@DangerousTalk There are so many translation errors in the Bible it's ridiculous - did you know that a lot of the time when in English they use the word 'homosexuality', the original Hebrew or Greek words meant either 'temple prostitution' or 'molestation of young boys'? But of course some idiot, probably with an anti-gay agenda, translated them into English with just one word, homosexuality. But of course no priest will stand up and say this for fear of persecution. Fucked up.
The lesson I get from Judges 11:30-39 is to trust that the Lord will provide without you making vain promises, without "tempting the Lord, your God". Really, take a look at verse 29 and preceeding,Jephthah was on a roll and then he panicked when he saw the Ammonites. He couldn't just trust in the Spirit of the Lord that came on him to help him defeat the Ammonites. No, instead he decides to up the ante and try, i.e. tempt, the Lord. Such bargains usually end badly.
In my opinion, to be a “good” Christian, a Christian has to believe that the love between 2 men or 2 women is as sacred as the love between a man and a woman.
The Christian lie, “Hate the sin, love the sinner,” is just another way of selling hate while calling it love.
to be Christian is to be at war with yourself. Let's say I was 'considering it', and I turn on CNN and see this 'christian' yelling about how he's curing gays and the end of the world is coming. I wouldn't try to find more information on the 'religion' because it looks more like a cult. It's like how America goes to war and everyone assumes we're all war hungry crazy people, until they realize we're just as disgraced by our government as their government treats them. Atheism for life.
Tell em' Dan! I grew up Catholic, did read the Bible and that cemented my disbelief. But you tell it like a priest which is interesting.
Of course it's caused some great strife in my family, particularly with my father. I think he has a hard time wrapping his head around his gay, atheist son. So much to the point that we no longer speak.
My Dad was an avid Catholic. He put money in the basket every week. I wonder how he would feel now to know that the money he gave was being used to keep me ..his son..as a second class citizen. My partner and I have been together for 20 years and we cannot get married here in Ohio due to all of the funneling of Catholic money into anti gay referendums and initiatives.
I lost my faith at 9 when I read Judges 11:30-39 in my children's illustrated bible.
Jephthah vowed to sacrifice whoever came to meet him when he returned, if God granted him victory over his enemies. HIs daughter came out to greet him. I thought she would run away, but she encouraged him to keep his vow. He sacrificed his only daughter, and God didn't stop him. I was supposed to learn 'be obedient in all things', but what I learned was 'religion can get you killed, and turn family against you'
@CaraIain Congratulations in taking the Bible literally. The Bible is no "Twilight" or "Harry Potter and the Chambers of Secrets" which you can read and take for granted what it says in clear sight, but you must read it with an open heart and understand the meaning of what it says. In the passages where family members are asked to be sacrificed, God didn't ask them to kill their families for his own satisfaction. He was testing the obedience of his prophets, the instruments he uses 2 speak 2 us.
@jeanintro "He was testing the obedience of his prophets, the instruments he uses 2 speak 2 us." Not a good reason to ask his followers to kill family members.
All powerful god couldn't find another way? All knowing god needed to test them?
@jeanintro Yeah, I get it. I think that kind of expectation is fucked. If it was 'a test of obedience' shouldn't god have saved her at the last second, Isaac style? If my dad ever tried to sacrifice me because of a bet he made with god, I would run the eff away. I think any god that expects or expected at any point, a father to kill an innocent girl is a fucked. up. deity. that I want no part in following. You can follow your daughter killing god all you want.
Mixed-fiber fabrics and shellfish are, according to Leviticus, and in the same chapter as the apparent proscription against a man lying with a man as he would a woman, abhorrent to God. A woman who is not a virgin on her weeding night is also abhorrent to God, and Leviticus commands you to stone her to death, in public. If you wear cotton-polyester blend, eat shrimp or lobster or crab, or are unwilling to murder a woman in the street, you have transgressed Leviticus and are no better than fags.
they believe that this existence is a test. Otherwise, why are we given free will? For those who believe in destiny, it's already been pre-ordained and it shouldn't matter anyways. For those who believe that they will achieve salvation through works, then they should welcome all challenges.
Not acknowledging others for having differing beliefs is religious discrimination. It's anti-American. If you don't like it, don't do it.
great video dan, thanks for sharing these, i too am astounded at the startling number of christians who have not read the bible. it is a horrorshow, cheers
dan should save his arguments to educate the anti-gay bigots within the gay community first. go inside any gay social/dating network site to experience the homophobia and gay bashing that gays are wielding against gays. demonizing christians and mocking the bible are trivial pursuits and a useless opportunity for grand posturing. rather than attacking the christian, dan should look within his own species, and be the agent of change he wants others to be.
2:02 the problem here is if you read the bible it clearly establishes homosexuality as immoral... the bible is a bunch of bullshit but these "christians" who dont follow it are intellectually dishonest
@aweiss Interesting you bring it up, actually the cultural aspect of the verses which condemn homosexuality is never taken into account when reading the Bible. The Bible is a sacred book, but a historic book as well, and while verses from Leviticus and Romans and some others might condemn certain homosexual acts, not one of them is referenced to a loving, respectful, faithful, monogamist relationship. The Bible never condemns those.
@jeanintro the only way you can get around the plain words of leviticus is to call them historical and cultural.. how could a christian read the bible and not see that leviticus is god's law?
@aweiss And who judges against Gays? The Family Research council? Republican politicians, later caught in gay sex scandals? Anti gay leaders always seem to have dark secrets themselves...
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
@CaraIain ????? the point was about the clear wording of leviticus and how it is incompatibale to follow the bible and be OK with gayness. Granted, the bible is a bunch of obviously man-made bullshit but it is clear none the less and to be a christian and not hate gays is like calling yourself a vegetarian and eating meat.
@aweiss I misunderstood your comment. I think you can be christian and read the bible, if you see that the whole old testament is a history book, and that Jesus changed everything, and try to live your life by what Jesus did/said. Which is to live your life serving others, helping those in need, trying to be compassionate, kind, giving, and lead by example without being a self-congratulatory douchebag.
@CaraIain if you look at it historically that is not the lesson you should get... he was giving because he felt the aapolocalypse was coming shortly in the same way people who tought the world was over a few weeks ago gave up their jobs and homes... he was a schitzophrenic, a sociopath and a liar... his story makes no sense and his lessons make no sense
@aweiss So we're all sinners and we're going to hell because we eat shrimp, we shave, we do not accept slavery and we use clothing with two types of fabric. We are also going to hell because we eat pig and because we.... live our normal life on Saturdays. See how many parts of the Bible do not apply to our times? So WHY the rules against homosexual acts (but not those within loving monogamous relationships) have to still be followed word by word?
@jeanintro if someone takes the bible as the word of god (and if you dont why bother with any of it, its not god's will) then not following leviticus does mean you are going to hell...
the bible does not apply to our modern liberal rational lives and it is good you point that out
@aweiss There's a big difference betwen following God's will and God's words in the Bible. They are not necessarily the same. I am gay and I am proud to be gay, but I am also a Catholic and I am even more proud to be a Catholic because that is something that I can change if I want, but I don't want ;) God loves us all the same and I doubt He will lose his sleep for two guys or two girls loving each other truly and faithfully.
@jeanintro so if the bible is not god's will and you can take what you like of it what is the basis for belief in god? also if you take the pieces you like aren't you just imagining a god you want? why bother? is there any legitimacy or basis to such a god? if his will and morality is your own what is the point? why not just beleive your own moral system, why take pieces of the bible and try to construct one similar to what you would wnat...
@aweiss ive the Bible is an accurate account of God. Some bits were for people then, some are for us now, and Jesus' teachings are timeless.
Why do I need a God? Because the same way as you don't ignore the existence of your parents I can't ignore the existence of that being who made me, who loves me unconditionally, who looks after me even in my darkest hour. God is love and He who is love can't hate His children for any reason. So why would I deny such Love?
@jeanintro i suppose his love for you led him to destroy sodom and gamorrah
the biblical god cannot love you so either admit you want to just imagine a new god who shares your values or that you dont beleive the bible adn thus there is no basis for belief in god
@aweiss Actually, you're wrong. First of all, Sodomy doesn't mean "homosexual sex".
sod·om·y/ˈsädəmē/
Noun: Sexual intercourse involving anal or oral copulation.
Second, God did not choose to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah because of their homosexual practices. In those days, the law stated that any foreigner who reached a city had to be welcomed with open arms and they had to share their food and homes with said person until he or she was ready to continue his journey. (cont.)
@jeanintro Sodom and Gomorrah did not abide to this law. They did not like foreigners and the way that they tried to keep people out of their cities was by publicly humiliating them which meant that they "raped" them or practiced anal sex against them without their consent.
When the Two angels sent by God reached the city, the people saw them as foreigners in look for a place to sleep and rest. Then they asked for the prophet to give them to the crowd so they could "get to know them".
@jeanintro So God didn't commit genocide on an entire city because of homosexuality....he committed genocide on an entire city because the people weren't friendly enough to foreigners.
I'm mystified why you think that is an improvement on the story.
@unclexbob He did not "commit genocide". You are talking like if God abides to the same laws and regulations that us humans do. He doesn't.
In that time, society believed in a God of wrath, in a God that will condemn and punish those who choose not to follow him in a heartbeat. And indeed, God's actions were parallel to that belief. When Jesus came and preached the truth of Love and how God is Love, many people did not believe he was the Messiah because he didn't preach the same God they knew.
@jeanintro I can't think of a better example of moral relativism than when someone seriously tries to argue that the slaughtering of an entire town is a morally acceptable. I don't know what that thing you call "god" is, but whatever it is, it isn't good.
@unclexbob I am not saying that God is incapable to send another big ass flood and kill us all, or someone who will incinerate Las Vegas. I am saying that He is unwilling to do that now because our times are different, because we know now that Jesus is the Messiah and that it's no longer the God who is feared but the God who loves us all.
You seem to leave out the fact that according to the beliefs and the society, there's a different perception of God and God acts differently towards the people
So your god was morally wrong back then, before he had the kid and mellowed out? Or are you saying that all those millions of slaughtered people deserved it?
@unclexbob WOW, way to twist my words and be disrespectful. First, it's not "my" God, is everyone's, whether you accept Him or not. He doesn't need your love for Him to love you back.
God was not "wrong" back then, God was showing His power differently. Those people believed in a God who punishes, who has wrath. That is why He sent the fire and why He sent the deluge. He will try to reach out to Humans in a way humans can understand. They didn't understand love on those days but we do now.
@jeanintro I'm not sure why you think it is disrespectful to ask how you justify the slaughtering of entire cities, let alone their moral implications. I would think anyone would be curious about such things in a similar fashion if someone suggested there was a moral upside to the holocaust.
And case in point, I've never heard of slaughtering of millions of innocents as a respectable method of "communication", let alone how you communicate love! Do you read what you type??
@jeanintro If God is above humans, he should act better than the worst humans in the history of the planet, if you ask me. I think that is a very low bar to achieve for a being that is supposed to be omni benevolent.
Not to mention, there are many stories in the OT where God tells the jews to wipe out entire cities. I assume you find that acceptable human slaughter also? If so, how do you know the same God didn't tell Hitler to kill all the jews? Wouldn't that automatically make it OK?
@unclexbob He does act better than the worst humans. Those stores, those you consider "unnecessary man slaughter" are also well beyond that. Remember when and how the Bible was written. You're judging God's actions with today's laws and if he was a human. God will do His job to reach out to humans the best way possible.
And he *is* the only judge. For example, would you consider death penalty for serial rapers? Well, those people in the OT were doing bad things and God had to act.
@jeanintro You think he is the only judge. Some of us have a moral compass based on empathy and justice. We don't need your god to recognize injustice. In fact, I think you are demonstrating that beliefs in deities actually short circuits your moral compass.
The punishment for raping a woman in the OT was, you had to marry the woman. You might want to try reading it some time. You'll be surprised.
@unclexbob He is the eternal judge (the one that matters), we humans have laws for the time we are on Earth. I don't see what the problem is with gays dating and marrying each other. I do see a problem raping anyone, even once. Seems like it was the other way around back then. I don't see a problem with shaving, eating shrimp and pork, working on a Saturday, cutting my hair, etc. Do you? So why choose to follow some things and don't follow others?
@unclexbob About Hitler: God doesn't speak to anyone out of spite or boredom. Also, God will not agree with a hate crime, with the death of people without justification. I mean, Jews aren't evil. Some of them are but that's their human nature, but most of them are wonderful people. God will not agree, like, and desire such thing now.
You need to CONSIDER THE CUSTOMS AND SOCIETY OF THE PEOPLE BACK THEN. The Bible was written word-to-word for them, but still applies in a deeper meaning to us.
Nowhere in the Bible does God condemn loving, monogamous, real relationships between a man and a man or a woman and a woman. Nowhere in the Bible does God states that you'll go to hell JUST because you're gay. And even the Catholic Church abides this teachings of "it's not a sin to be gay" by adding to their Catechism article #2358 scborromeo (dot) org/ccc/para/2358 (dot) htm
"They must be accepted with respect, compassion. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided."
@jeanintro well without anal or oral what do you have left?
The bible is clear, homosexuality is not OK, it is laid out in leviticus. if the words arent true what is the basis for the beleief in any other part of the bible? if some can be false all can be false, why trust some and not others
@aweiss So, by adhering to that verse of Leviticus word-by-word, you also accept that you're going to hell because you condemn slavery, you shave, cut your hair, eat shrimp or pork, work/go out/cook on a Saturday, etc.
The Bible makes much more sense when you take your time and interpret, not by yourself but with someone knowledgeable, what it really meant then and what it means now. The Bible has as much validity now than 500, 1000, 2000 and 3000 years ago
@jeanintro no i think the bible is bullshit. but so do you... you only take the portions of it you like. if it is not all applicable why is some of it applicable, because it appeals to your sensibilities?
if it is good for fables why not look to fictional stories not winding pointless and boring. there is a lot of good fiction out there, try amazon.
@Rumake What do you mean with a "man" nor a "Christian"? Of course, God is not human nor has a gender. God is Love. Also, God is not exclusive to Christianity nor he "affiliates" himself with Christianity since he is beyond religions. Humans sometimes use religions to get closer to Him but he doesn't need religion for a man or a woman to seek him.
@jeanintro I agree with your response to my questions. "Many people are already aware of the difference between spirituality and religion. They realize that having a belief system--a set of thoughts that you regard as the absolute truth-does not make you spiritual no matter what the nature of those beliefs is. In fact, the more you make your thoughts (beliefs) into your identity, the more cut off you are from the spiritual dimension within yourself."
@Rumake He's whatever you imagine him to be, because he is imaginary. That's the problem. Once you have embraced this magical belief without reason sort of mindset, why would you need a rational reason to believe anything? Why not believe god hates fags? There is certainly more scripture to support that than to support your god of all faiths who loves everyone and there is no evidence or logic behind either belief. Jesus himself is supposed to have said to murder family that converts.
I'd like to agree with Dan, and in a way I do. There are plenty of Christians that are okay with gays. But I'm terribly biased in that I live in the South and I've seen the conflict that gay Christians face. Quite frankly, I think a person that identifies as gay, bi, etc. is still Christian only because they are too afraid to leave their religion. That's just my bias.
@jenzahara Something I did once was go through the Old Testament and tried counting how many times God gave orders for his followers to kill people. Quite frequently he order
I think Progressive Christians think to be true Christians, you have to be quiet and passive and accepting. Jesus got in people's faces when he saw something that wasn't right. He stood up for everyone and died for us. If you believe it.I don't really believe there is such a thing as a true Christian. They just say something to keep from feeling bad or embarrassed when someone actually says what they feel.
TheNolo73 1 week ago
One more reason I love Dan Savage and want to have his children.
Oh wait, he's married.
Oh wait, I am too (soon to be).
Nevermind.
I still think Dan's amazing tho.
Toddhimself 4 weeks ago
I wish Christians listened to that and took it seriously.
danielvortisto 1 month ago
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brotherfrank62 2 months ago
Exdous Chapter 20:vers.17 The truth about giving. Thou shalt not covet any thing that is thy neighbour's. The 10th commandment.
brotherfrank62 2 months ago
PuuuuhLEEEEEZE SHUT UP ABOUT THE BIBLE. This is an argument between people who have read 6 passages from the bible about stuff that is funny to atheists like God being unable to stop Iron Chariots in Judges vs Christians who have read maybe 12 verses on Christmastime.
Shut the hell up.
remeranAuthor 2 months ago
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Please visit my channel for the unpopular truth about homosexuality.
A person does not need hatred or any kind of phobia in order to acknowledge important differences between heterosexual attraction / behavior / marriage / adoption and homosexual attraction / behavior / marriage / adoption. Even non-religious people know this.
Homosexual activists, with support from the media, have succeeded at framing themselves as noble victims; it's an effective way to push a social agenda.
lightandbeautiful 4 months ago
GREAT comments Dan!
buxtehudemuzik 4 months ago
I LOVE Dan Savage!
lobum 5 months ago
Silent complicity is in all religions. And not just about gays, but about anti-Semitism, atheists, hate for anyone not of their faith, etc. It's the biggest wedge in society today.
MrHomeChef 7 months ago
IBroLLyISePhIrOtH 7 months ago
Lord of salvation keep looking away
It is your will that this world goes astray
Take us each day from this place you unworthed
Unfulfilled promise of heaven on earth
You are the one who killed your own son
We are the ones your hatred is on
Children are dying and this you're content
Where is your profit in what you have left
No intervention from angels above
god is the reason that Satan lives on
IBroLLyISePhIrOtH 7 months ago
When Savage says liberal/progressive Christians aren't standing up to the Tony Perkins of the world, he's either ignorant or lying. There are any number of people in my own church (Episcopal) who have debated on CNN and other worldwide media the wingnuts on the right. If Savage doesn't know of any, he can do a little homework/reporting (so he doesn't look as uninformed as he does here) and contact the Rev. Susan Russell at All Saints Church in Pasadena, Calif., for starters.
nacinla 8 months ago
@nacinla Well, I understood his implication to mean that MORE need to be vocal...
BroadwayUCC 7 months ago
The thing about "non-affiliated" people actually being Christians... Some people who count as Christian (I have membership records in a church) are atheists.
roadsideflowers 8 months ago
CHRSITIANITY = HATE
CHRISTIANITY = VULGARITY
CHRISTIANITY = EVIL
CHRISTIANITY = CANCER TO SOCIETY
jacmia 8 months ago
I agree with what you said. As a very openminded christian i don't like identifying myself as a christian because people think that makes me anti-gay or really stuck up. which is completely untrue. most of my friends are gay. heck, if i met the right girl I would have no problem with the whole fact that 'omg she's a girl'. I personally believe that love knows no gender.
MaydayParadeGroupie 8 months ago
@unclexbob, it is morality that short circuits love. Morality ties us up in a tangled mess of legalisms. The ethical focus is skewed; it has us agonizing over the trivialities of political correctness while we heap burdens on the poor and powerless.
The fundamental message of Christianity, indeed of all Scripture, is that we do not need a moral code in order to do the loving thing. "Love Life and your neighbor as yourself; These two commandments are the message of the Bible."
cpklapper 8 months ago
@cpklapper it doesn't say love life, it says love God and your neighbor as yourself.
JusticeCN 7 months ago
@JusticeCN Since God is "I AM THAT I AM", God is Existence. Hence to love God is to love all that is, which is to say "Life" with a capital "L". Understand?
cpklapper 2 months ago
With respect to the people of Israel being told to slaughter people they defeated, that was a necessity. It was kill or be killed by the bloodthirsty cultic tribes that dominated Canaan at the time. Think of it as a more summary version of the Nuremberg trials.
In general, a view of God as pollyannish just doesn't pass muster. Even Jesus refers to the brutal justice of his time in his parables by way of explaining God's justice. These have been misconstrued by atheists and Muslims as a command.
cpklapper 8 months ago
All, you will forever misunderstand the Bible if you think of it as a moral code. Now, I certainly respect the atheists' criticisms of the literalists. In fact, I share them. However, the atheists do not go as far as other Christians and I do on this critical issue of morality and ethics. The sin of the garden was morality and ethics. It is in this sinful world obsessed with morality, and thus with brutality, that the Hebrews lived and wrote the Bible. God is seen working in this brutal world.
cpklapper 8 months ago
@unclexbob, you are easily confused, but I will try to explain. The Sodomites acted like the Stormtroopers. They were raping and murdering innocent people. They were committing genocide against visitors. We should not shed a tear when murderers meet an untimely demise because that preserves the lives of those who would have otherwise been their future victims. The destruction of Sodom was not genocide, but the end of an ongoing genocide.
cpklapper 8 months ago
@cpklapper The people you are talking about in the bible were not actually Sodomites but rather they were straight macho men who got their pleasure in dominating men from other tribes, etc. This has happened through out history in battle when one group would beat another and then sometimes perform sodomy on the losers as a way to say that there were no longer true men.
bowlhawk 8 months ago
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@unclexbob, the bluff is: "I'd give anything that satisfies property Y to get X". It is reality, as in Murphy's Law, that what you treasure most will satisfy property Y.
The king, btw, didn't have to go through with sacrificing his daughter. His pride in honoring his stupid pledges was what killed his daughter.
cpklapper 8 months ago
The problem is that the right-wing batshit Christians discount the liberal progressive Christians. They take away the legitimacy of our faith, and that's where it fails. If Tony Perkins says that the liberal progressive types aren't Christians, his batshit followers listen to him and not to us. What are we supposed to do?
cigelow 8 months ago
Or, just not be religious in the first place. Then one wouldn't be attached to any bigoted group.
Cyberjunkie09 8 months ago
1000 x "like"
BradGunnerSgt 8 months ago
3:20 So, if we dug into the numbers, would we find out that Dan Savage is really Christian...errr, "cultural Catholic"... and not an atheist. News flash: there are a lot of religious people who *honestly* claim to be religious, but at some level (what one might call the subconscious) they don't really believe. They *want* to believe, but deep down know tthey don't have a reason to do so.
I have a friend who calls himself a "cultural Catholic." I'm quite sure he's atheist, but doesn't know it.
TheMidwestAtheist 8 months ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Is Dan Savage a fag?
quezcatol 8 months ago
@quezcatol Only if "fags" are what you like to watch, seeing as how you clicked the video to watch it knowing full well what it would be about. :-)
OldKingSol 8 months ago
@OldKingSol I didnt search "dan savage" nor did I search "good christians" have no idea how this fucked up video got in´my recommend.
quezcatol 8 months ago
@357lenny Grow up you cunt.
tokabowla 8 months ago
I feel the exact same way he does. Christians keep telling me that not all of them are psychotic batshit crazy fundies but really....why tell me? They should tell the those who claim to speak for them because if they don't, the hate mongers will continue to accumulate power and eventually it'll be too late for them to say anything. If they really cared for their religion and others, they would take a stand and not let this "sacred" thing of theirs be dragged through the mud by batshit crazys.
choongd 8 months ago 7
You don't know Richard Dawkins's name by heart? Shame, mega shame.
cowlark2000 8 months ago 3
@unclexbob, so Dresden was firebombed because the storm troopers weren't friendly enough to the Jews?
cpklapper 8 months ago
@cpklapper Are you saying the Nazi's bombed Sodom because there were Jews there....?
I didn't know they were working on a time machine. Wait....wouldn't that make God a Nazi?
I'm very confused by your comparison.
unclexbob 8 months ago
@DangerousTalk, the highly publicized literalists, both fundamentalists and atheists, take the biblical low road of deliberately misunderstanding scripture. The Bible is a library of books in which people of faith have found understanding or simply grappled with the problems and perplexities of life.
Take Job, for instance. It asks the still popular question: "Why do bad things happen to good people?" by asking the dramatic question: "What if God let the Devil torment Job?"
cpklapper 8 months ago
@cpklapper Sorry, but when the bible says to slaughter non-believers, I tend to think that the bible says to slaughter non-believers. Atheists didn't write that, Christians did dipshit.
tokabowla 8 months ago 3
@cpklapper Liberals are not alone in finding their own interpretation of biblical scripture. There have been over thirty thousand different denominations and sects of Christianity, demonstrating that this allegedly inerrant text is tremendously flexible.
Christians pick and chose which scripture to recognize, ignoring passages that are no longer personally relevant. In light of this, why not do as Dan Savage has done, and dismiss the few scriptural injunctions against homosexuality?
DEricKesler 8 months ago
@cpklapper Atheists only "misunderstand" scripture in that they're generally trying to clarify the literalist's stated beliefs. They have to quote "misunderstood" scripture as touted by the literalists just to show them the absurdity of their position. It's not an atheist's job to "understand" scripture, they're not the ones using it to defend their beliefs (or lack thereof). Any "misunderstanding" you seem to see in atheism is only due to having that "misunderstood" quoted at them over & over.
OldKingSol 8 months ago 2
@cpklapper It seems you are the type of guy who takes the parts of the Bible you like literally and the parts you don't like metaphorically and then you call it God's will. Job does ask an important question, but it also answers that question in a way that I find appalling. It also teaches that children can simply be replaced with new children with no harm done. Yeah, the Bible is a series of books and they are all bad. Some are worse than others though.
DangerousTalk 7 months ago
@DangerousTalk Not at all. You should try reading without the false dichotomy of literal vs. figurative analysis, but instead simply try to understand what is being written. The Bible is a collection of writings in which the Hebrews and then Christians found meaning through the ages. Some of it is genealogical, some historical, some poetry, some philosophical. The history can be gritty and gruesome like reporting at the city desk. The philosophy can be stark. The poetry sensual.
cpklapper 2 months ago
@cpklapper Actually, very little if any of the Bible is historical. Most of the "history" presented never actually happened. With the exception of the names of some real people and places, it is almost entirely fictional. The Bible is a collection of writings which were edited by countless people to the point that it is no longer recognizable. There is no single narrative and there probably never was.
DangerousTalk 2 months ago
@DangerousTalk there is a BIG difference between not letting grief consume you and "no harm done". There is also no doubt that, as a philosophical set piece, the Book of Job is all about Job. Everything else is a prop, even God and Satan. The dramatic question is: if you had everything you could have wanted and lost it all, would you curse Existence? In other words, how much of your acceptance of Reality is based on the way Life treats you? In the case of Job, it is no and none.
cpklapper 2 months ago
@unclexbob, it is not morality; it is reality that calls your bluff.
cpklapper 8 months ago
@cpklapper what is the answer and what was my bluff? (what was the question, for that matter?)
unclexbob 8 months ago
What is really disappointing is that even some of the most well known liberal Christians are anti-gay (I'm talking to you Jim Wallis). I am anti-Christian because at the end of the day, the right wing nut jobs have the biblical high ground in this fight. Christianity does promote hatred and discrimination for gays. So it really isn't Tony Perkins who is the problem. He is a symptom. The problem really is Christianity.
DangerousTalk 8 months ago 18
@DangerousTalk The Bible is a text and it's up to the person to interpret that text as strictly or loosely as he chooses. I see nothing wrong with a person accepting the good moral values within the Bible, rejecting the bigoted and old fashioned tenets it also spews, and accepting Jesus as his accepting, loving savior.
To say Christianity is the problem is to assume that people are attracted to Christianity MAINLY because the Bible is bigoted.
borskyviolin 8 months ago
@borskyviolin Actually, the text of the Bible tells people to kill homosexuals. This is not some crackpot intrepretation. As for "good moral values" in the Bible, please be so kind as to explain what EXACTLY those are that cannot be found many other places? According to the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:18, you're supposed to KEEP all the OT laws that you call bigoted and old-fashioned.
The teachings of Jesus aren't all that moral and he certainly didn't condemn any of the OT laws.
ciaochowbella 8 months ago
@borskyviolin No people are bigoted because they are indoctrinated that way. They are indoctrinated that way because the Bible instructs people to value faith and indoctrination over reason and critical thinking.
DangerousTalk 7 months ago
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BroadwayUCC 7 months ago
@DangerousTalk - The problem may be with Christianity, but not with Christ. Those denominations which embrace the LGBT community are quite often led by humility & the spirit of peace, which is contrary to the fear-based vitriol that right-wing zealots usually perpetuate. Do not confuse spiritual benevolence with apathy or weakness.
BroadwayUCC 7 months ago
@BroadwayUCC The problem is that the only information we have on "Christ" comes from Christianity. If you read the Bible, "Christ" is a bit of an asshole. But sadly, most people skip those parts of the Bible any only focus on the few things that the character says that are positive. Those sects which embrace the LGBT community are doing so against their beliefs and because of secular modernity.
DangerousTalk 7 months ago
@DangerousTalk - I have read the Bible, and where in the world is Christ an asshole? Explain.
eMpulseNYC 7 months ago
@eMpulseNYC Well, there is the verse where Jesus says that you have to hate your family. The verse where he says that he didn't come to bring peace, but came with a sword. The verse where he talked about plucking out eyes and cutting off hands. The many verses where he talks about eternal torture in Hell. The passage where he insults a woman because she asked him to heal her child. The passage where he insults his mom. I am running out of youtube characters. Sorry.
DangerousTalk 7 months ago
@DangerousTalk make sure you are reading things within context, if you read things without context, then it gets messy. context = game changer
JusticeCN 7 months ago
@JusticeCN Umm, I have read the context and it makes it much, much worse! Not making your case here.
DangerousTalk 7 months ago
@JusticeCN Okay, I'll play. What exactly do you think the context is for the Bible verse which states that if a man lies with another man it is an abomination and both should be put to death? I really want to hear this.
DangerousTalk 7 months ago
@DangerousTalk - As a member of UCC, we do NOT embrace the LGBT community against our theological beliefs, and if you attended the church, you would understand that. The core message of Christ's mission was mercy & compassion, and this is what we adhere to as one of the basic principles of Jesus Christ.
BroadwayUCC 7 months ago
@BroadwayUCC ... or what? you go to Hell and are tortured for all eternity? That is the real message of the New Testament. Believe or be tortured! I can't speak for your church, but having read the Bible, I can say that Christianity is an immoral religion full of hate and falsehoods. Christianity has more plot holes an a Michael Bay movie.
DangerousTalk 7 months ago
@DangerousTalk Christianity is a label. It's not the problem. The extremists that claim they're Christians are the problem.
holycowmania 4 months ago
@holycowmania No, Christianity is a belief system and it is definitely the problem!
DangerousTalk 4 months ago
@DangerousTalk Yet you are telling us that your belief system simply doesn't consist of Christianity. . . not all belief systems are the problem. I'm a gay Christian who will, as long as I live, refuse to deny my belief of God. To me, it's just looking beyond the fucked up, flawed beings that humans are and putting everything before the deity you worship (not YOU, but just general people). I know many gays who hold fast to their faith, varying from Muslim to Pentecostal to Catholic.
welsj91 3 months ago in playlist More videos from dansavage
@welsj91 I don't know why any gay person would worship a deity that commands that being gay is an abomination and should be put to death. Why would you "hold fast" to such a belief? Even if you (the general you) actually believed such a ridiculous deity existed, I could never worship such a being. I certainly could never worship a deity that holds that I and everyone I know and love are evil sinners. But you are welcome to your ridiculous beliefs, just don't expect me not to criticize them.
DangerousTalk 3 months ago
@DangerousTalk You're making it sound so black and white, when in fact the world is full of grey. I wasn't trying to argue with you, I was just stating my point and my beliefs. I believe in the God that promised salvation to all. I'll be the first to say that I think a part of Christians are just full of bullsh*t. If the Bible is God's word, and God is so complex, then no one can interpret it for what it truly is and we're all entitled to our own interpretations.
welsj91 3 months ago
@DangerousTalk Again, I hope nothing I said is coming across as an attack to you or atheists. Honestly, I've gotten more sympathy from atheists than Christians (aside from the accepting/welcoming ones), so I'm not here to judge anyone. I'm not here to criticize you or attempt to convert you from your 'horrible' atheism. The faith of Christianity just so happens to bring me peace, and it's how I deal with the world. It's more complex than it seems.
welsj91 3 months ago
@DangerousTalk I'd like to hear more about your opinion and beliefs, so whenever you have more time, send me a message if you can. I like learning about other people's beliefs and opinions. I take a little bit of everything to shape my faith, and atheism is no exception.
welsj91 3 months ago
@DangerousTalk The thing is, it's the fundamentalist Christians who quote Leviticus where it says gays should be put to death, but Leviticus also says you should be put to death for things that those same fundamentalist Christians do every day (like eating pork/shellfish, shaving your beard, blaspheming, wearing clothes made of more than one material woven together, that you should have slaves from neighboring countries, etc etc). They're total hypocrites and haven't read the Bible.
annielouuu 2 months ago
@annielouuu It's all crap. Why one anyone follow any of it?
DangerousTalk 2 months ago
@DangerousTalk What it comes down to is that Leviticus, and a whole lot of chapters in the Old Testament, are outdated and irrelevant to modern Christianity, yet hypocritical bigots like to quote them for their own gain. Jesus said the most important things in the world were 1) to love God above all, and 2) to love your neighbor as yourself. Perhaps @welsj91, like most liberal Christians, finds comfort in this message, and chooses to ignore the rest of the bullshit. If only more people would!
annielouuu 2 months ago
@annielouuu Jesus also said to hate your family and chop off your hands and poke out your eyes. The message of the New Testament is belief or be tortured for all eternity. Not a message I agree with. So no, even if I believed God existed (which i don't) I certainly wouldn't love him above my family, friends, and loved ones.
DangerousTalk 2 months ago
@DangerousTalk I'm not saying you have to believe or agree, just explaining why some people do :) And the hands and eyes thing was not meant literally, it's a metaphor for thinking about what caused you to sin so you know how to stop. The 'family hating' is interesting too, the original Greek word, miseo, doesn't necessarily mean hate, it's more of a 'love less than me' meaning (as in love God above your family, which you don't agree with, that's fine) but it doesn't mean hate.
annielouuu 2 months ago
@annielouuu I have read the context and it really doesn't seem to be metaphorical. The Jesus of the Bible believed in Hell and he believe would be better off missing limbs than having their soul tortured for all eternity. There is no metaphor there. Also, what kind of moral person would demand that you love him more than you love your own family? No moral person would be that egotistical. Don't try to make excuses for this immoral crap or those who follow it.
DangerousTalk 2 months ago
@DangerousTalk I'm not making excuses for it, I'm just trying to explain different points of view and have an adult conversation. But I promise you he was speaking figuratively, Jesus was pretty clear on not harming yourself on purpose and treating your body as a temple with respect. But yeah, I'm not making excuses, just saying people believe different things, but I think its more productive to be respectful of people's beliefs so we can work together to protect the gay community
annielouuu 2 months ago
@annielouuu I'm going to call BS here. First, the context of that verse makes it clear that Jesus values the soul more than the body. That was the point of the verse. Second, you talk about respect for people's beliefs, but neither of us respect the beliefs of those who hate gays, blacks, or anyone else. And why should we respect those beliefs? Those beliefs are not respectable. So when people believe that other people should be tortured for all eternity, I will not respect that.
DangerousTalk 2 months ago
@DangerousTalk Okay, that's fine, we can agree to disagree. I just think it's pointless to attack people who are on your side, that's all.
annielouuu 2 months ago
@annielouuu "attack people who are on my side?" My side is for everyone to reject the hateful ideas of the Bible. Criticizing ridiculous and hateful ideas is not "attacking people." Attacking people is why Christians beat the shit out of those who they consider "sinners."
DangerousTalk 2 months ago
@DangerousTalk Come on, we're both against hate and bigotry. We might express it in different ways, but essentially we're on the same side. And I'm listening to your opinions, they're valuable and I'll think about them whenever I come up against fundamentalists, so thank you
annielouuu 2 months ago
@annielouuu I'm not talking about fundamentalists. The central message of Christianity is that everyone is evil and will be tortured for all eternity unless they worship Jesus. That isn't fundamentalism, that is mainstream Christianity. Mainstream Christianity also teaches that belief on insufficient evidence is a virtue. I don't accept that. Christianity is a hateful and bigoted religion. The fundamentalists just call more attention to those aspects but they are always there.
DangerousTalk 2 months ago
@DangerousTalk There are so many translation errors in the Bible it's ridiculous - did you know that a lot of the time when in English they use the word 'homosexuality', the original Hebrew or Greek words meant either 'temple prostitution' or 'molestation of young boys'? But of course some idiot, probably with an anti-gay agenda, translated them into English with just one word, homosexuality. But of course no priest will stand up and say this for fear of persecution. Fucked up.
annielouuu 2 months ago
@DangerousTalk I'd go on, but it'd require the availability of much more than just 500 characters.
welsj91 3 months ago in playlist More videos from dansavage
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raby760 8 months ago
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raby760 8 months ago
The lesson I get from Judges 11:30-39 is to trust that the Lord will provide without you making vain promises, without "tempting the Lord, your God". Really, take a look at verse 29 and preceeding,Jephthah was on a roll and then he panicked when he saw the Ammonites. He couldn't just trust in the Spirit of the Lord that came on him to help him defeat the Ammonites. No, instead he decides to up the ante and try, i.e. tempt, the Lord. Such bargains usually end badly.
cpklapper 8 months ago
@cpklapper shorter version: don't temp god, he'll tell you to murder your children.
Is that suppose to be a moral teaching?
unclexbob 8 months ago 3
In my opinion, to be a “good” Christian, a Christian has to believe that the love between 2 men or 2 women is as sacred as the love between a man and a woman.
The Christian lie, “Hate the sin, love the sinner,” is just another way of selling hate while calling it love.
Rumake 8 months ago 4
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Rumake 8 months ago
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shenadoa 8 months ago
to be Christian is to be at war with yourself. Let's say I was 'considering it', and I turn on CNN and see this 'christian' yelling about how he's curing gays and the end of the world is coming. I wouldn't try to find more information on the 'religion' because it looks more like a cult. It's like how America goes to war and everyone assumes we're all war hungry crazy people, until they realize we're just as disgraced by our government as their government treats them. Atheism for life.
Watchout5 8 months ago
An amazing point Dan,. Enlightened Christians need to come out of the closet every bit as much as we do.
jdavis6 8 months ago
I need a friend...
usernamessucks01 8 months ago
The majority of US Catholics (56%) support gay marriage.
mstearne 8 months ago
Tell em' Dan! I grew up Catholic, did read the Bible and that cemented my disbelief. But you tell it like a priest which is interesting.
Of course it's caused some great strife in my family, particularly with my father. I think he has a hard time wrapping his head around his gay, atheist son. So much to the point that we no longer speak.
kd1s 8 months ago
I'm glad to hear you saying this, and I'm going to share this with my friends.
I still don't have any faith in the church myself though.
aijire 8 months ago
My Dad was an avid Catholic. He put money in the basket every week. I wonder how he would feel now to know that the money he gave was being used to keep me ..his son..as a second class citizen. My partner and I have been together for 20 years and we cannot get married here in Ohio due to all of the funneling of Catholic money into anti gay referendums and initiatives.
stoner829 8 months ago 4
christians are such steaming bags of warmth.
doobiesmoke15 8 months ago 3
It still amazes me that most Xtians miss the central point of the religion...
Stop judging other people. That is God's job. You just live your life cleanly, faithfully and help out your fellow folk when you can.
dolphpun 8 months ago 2
“In the end we remember not the words of our enemies but the silence of our friends.” MLK Jr.
Rumake 8 months ago 30
Dan forgot to mention that Catholics need to get in Pope Benedict's face even louder than getting into Tony Perkins' face.
jwilliamnyc 8 months ago 3
AMEN!
EPRVa62 8 months ago
When did religions become a race?
TabooTerminal 8 months ago
christOPHER hitchens hahaha <3 i love you dan!
MoveMyHipsMoveMyLips 8 months ago
I lost my faith at 9 when I read Judges 11:30-39 in my children's illustrated bible.
Jephthah vowed to sacrifice whoever came to meet him when he returned, if God granted him victory over his enemies. HIs daughter came out to greet him. I thought she would run away, but she encouraged him to keep his vow. He sacrificed his only daughter, and God didn't stop him. I was supposed to learn 'be obedient in all things', but what I learned was 'religion can get you killed, and turn family against you'
CaraIain 8 months ago 74
@CaraIain Congratulations in taking the Bible literally. The Bible is no "Twilight" or "Harry Potter and the Chambers of Secrets" which you can read and take for granted what it says in clear sight, but you must read it with an open heart and understand the meaning of what it says. In the passages where family members are asked to be sacrificed, God didn't ask them to kill their families for his own satisfaction. He was testing the obedience of his prophets, the instruments he uses 2 speak 2 us.
jeanintro 8 months ago
@jeanintro "He was testing the obedience of his prophets, the instruments he uses 2 speak 2 us." Not a good reason to ask his followers to kill family members.
All powerful god couldn't find another way? All knowing god needed to test them?
dangerics 8 months ago 2
@jeanintro Yeah, I get it. I think that kind of expectation is fucked. If it was 'a test of obedience' shouldn't god have saved her at the last second, Isaac style? If my dad ever tried to sacrifice me because of a bet he made with god, I would run the eff away. I think any god that expects or expected at any point, a father to kill an innocent girl is a fucked. up. deity. that I want no part in following. You can follow your daughter killing god all you want.
CaraIain 8 months ago
Mixed-fiber fabrics and shellfish are, according to Leviticus, and in the same chapter as the apparent proscription against a man lying with a man as he would a woman, abhorrent to God. A woman who is not a virgin on her weeding night is also abhorrent to God, and Leviticus commands you to stone her to death, in public. If you wear cotton-polyester blend, eat shrimp or lobster or crab, or are unwilling to murder a woman in the street, you have transgressed Leviticus and are no better than fags.
sytby 8 months ago
all Christians should be ANARCHISTS.
they believe that this existence is a test. Otherwise, why are we given free will? For those who believe in destiny, it's already been pre-ordained and it shouldn't matter anyways. For those who believe that they will achieve salvation through works, then they should welcome all challenges.
Not acknowledging others for having differing beliefs is religious discrimination. It's anti-American. If you don't like it, don't do it.
keitochan001 8 months ago
great video dan, thanks for sharing these, i too am astounded at the startling number of christians who have not read the bible. it is a horrorshow, cheers
jeremyshambles 8 months ago
You are cool
BassBOY0GIRL 8 months ago
dan should save his arguments to educate the anti-gay bigots within the gay community first. go inside any gay social/dating network site to experience the homophobia and gay bashing that gays are wielding against gays. demonizing christians and mocking the bible are trivial pursuits and a useless opportunity for grand posturing. rather than attacking the christian, dan should look within his own species, and be the agent of change he wants others to be.
hngltn 8 months ago
2:02 the problem here is if you read the bible it clearly establishes homosexuality as immoral... the bible is a bunch of bullshit but these "christians" who dont follow it are intellectually dishonest
aweiss 8 months ago
@aweiss Interesting you bring it up, actually the cultural aspect of the verses which condemn homosexuality is never taken into account when reading the Bible. The Bible is a sacred book, but a historic book as well, and while verses from Leviticus and Romans and some others might condemn certain homosexual acts, not one of them is referenced to a loving, respectful, faithful, monogamist relationship. The Bible never condemns those.
jeanintro 8 months ago
@jeanintro the only way you can get around the plain words of leviticus is to call them historical and cultural.. how could a christian read the bible and not see that leviticus is god's law?
aweiss 8 months ago
@aweiss And who judges against Gays? The Family Research council? Republican politicians, later caught in gay sex scandals? Anti gay leaders always seem to have dark secrets themselves...
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Plenty of beams in anti-gay eyes being ignored...
CaraIain 8 months ago
@CaraIain ????? the point was about the clear wording of leviticus and how it is incompatibale to follow the bible and be OK with gayness. Granted, the bible is a bunch of obviously man-made bullshit but it is clear none the less and to be a christian and not hate gays is like calling yourself a vegetarian and eating meat.
aweiss 8 months ago
@aweiss I misunderstood your comment. I think you can be christian and read the bible, if you see that the whole old testament is a history book, and that Jesus changed everything, and try to live your life by what Jesus did/said. Which is to live your life serving others, helping those in need, trying to be compassionate, kind, giving, and lead by example without being a self-congratulatory douchebag.
CaraIain 8 months ago
@CaraIain if you look at it historically that is not the lesson you should get... he was giving because he felt the aapolocalypse was coming shortly in the same way people who tought the world was over a few weeks ago gave up their jobs and homes... he was a schitzophrenic, a sociopath and a liar... his story makes no sense and his lessons make no sense
aweiss 8 months ago
@aweiss his stories and lessons make lots of sense. Being rich is profiting off the exploitation of others. Buddy was a socialist.
CaraIain 8 months ago
@aweiss So we're all sinners and we're going to hell because we eat shrimp, we shave, we do not accept slavery and we use clothing with two types of fabric. We are also going to hell because we eat pig and because we.... live our normal life on Saturdays. See how many parts of the Bible do not apply to our times? So WHY the rules against homosexual acts (but not those within loving monogamous relationships) have to still be followed word by word?
jeanintro 8 months ago
@jeanintro if someone takes the bible as the word of god (and if you dont why bother with any of it, its not god's will) then not following leviticus does mean you are going to hell...
the bible does not apply to our modern liberal rational lives and it is good you point that out
aweiss 8 months ago
@aweiss There's a big difference betwen following God's will and God's words in the Bible. They are not necessarily the same. I am gay and I am proud to be gay, but I am also a Catholic and I am even more proud to be a Catholic because that is something that I can change if I want, but I don't want ;) God loves us all the same and I doubt He will lose his sleep for two guys or two girls loving each other truly and faithfully.
jeanintro 8 months ago
@jeanintro so if the bible is not god's will and you can take what you like of it what is the basis for belief in god? also if you take the pieces you like aren't you just imagining a god you want? why bother? is there any legitimacy or basis to such a god? if his will and morality is your own what is the point? why not just beleive your own moral system, why take pieces of the bible and try to construct one similar to what you would wnat...
aweiss 8 months ago
@jeanintro also... if you don't beleive the bible to be an accurate account of god's will then why buy any of it?
I really jsut dont get why you need a god and why you want this piecemeal nonsense of a god
aweiss 8 months ago
@aweiss ive the Bible is an accurate account of God. Some bits were for people then, some are for us now, and Jesus' teachings are timeless.
Why do I need a God? Because the same way as you don't ignore the existence of your parents I can't ignore the existence of that being who made me, who loves me unconditionally, who looks after me even in my darkest hour. God is love and He who is love can't hate His children for any reason. So why would I deny such Love?
jeanintro 8 months ago
@jeanintro i suppose his love for you led him to destroy sodom and gamorrah
the biblical god cannot love you so either admit you want to just imagine a new god who shares your values or that you dont beleive the bible adn thus there is no basis for belief in god
your view is disingenious and baseless
aweiss 8 months ago
@aweiss Do you know why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah in the first place? If you do, please explain it to me briefly.
jeanintro 8 months ago
@jeanintro homosexuality... sodomy, the word comes from this story
aweiss 8 months ago
@aweiss Actually, you're wrong. First of all, Sodomy doesn't mean "homosexual sex".
sod·om·y/ˈsädəmē/
Noun: Sexual intercourse involving anal or oral copulation.
Second, God did not choose to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah because of their homosexual practices. In those days, the law stated that any foreigner who reached a city had to be welcomed with open arms and they had to share their food and homes with said person until he or she was ready to continue his journey. (cont.)
jeanintro 8 months ago 2
@jeanintro Sodom and Gomorrah did not abide to this law. They did not like foreigners and the way that they tried to keep people out of their cities was by publicly humiliating them which meant that they "raped" them or practiced anal sex against them without their consent.
When the Two angels sent by God reached the city, the people saw them as foreigners in look for a place to sleep and rest. Then they asked for the prophet to give them to the crowd so they could "get to know them".
jeanintro 8 months ago
@jeanintro So God didn't commit genocide on an entire city because of homosexuality....he committed genocide on an entire city because the people weren't friendly enough to foreigners.
I'm mystified why you think that is an improvement on the story.
unclexbob 8 months ago 2
@unclexbob He did not "commit genocide". You are talking like if God abides to the same laws and regulations that us humans do. He doesn't.
In that time, society believed in a God of wrath, in a God that will condemn and punish those who choose not to follow him in a heartbeat. And indeed, God's actions were parallel to that belief. When Jesus came and preached the truth of Love and how God is Love, many people did not believe he was the Messiah because he didn't preach the same God they knew.
jeanintro 8 months ago
@jeanintro I can't think of a better example of moral relativism than when someone seriously tries to argue that the slaughtering of an entire town is a morally acceptable. I don't know what that thing you call "god" is, but whatever it is, it isn't good.
unclexbob 8 months ago
@unclexbob I am not saying that God is incapable to send another big ass flood and kill us all, or someone who will incinerate Las Vegas. I am saying that He is unwilling to do that now because our times are different, because we know now that Jesus is the Messiah and that it's no longer the God who is feared but the God who loves us all.
You seem to leave out the fact that according to the beliefs and the society, there's a different perception of God and God acts differently towards the people
jeanintro 8 months ago
So your god was morally wrong back then, before he had the kid and mellowed out? Or are you saying that all those millions of slaughtered people deserved it?
unclexbob 8 months ago
@unclexbob WOW, way to twist my words and be disrespectful. First, it's not "my" God, is everyone's, whether you accept Him or not. He doesn't need your love for Him to love you back.
God was not "wrong" back then, God was showing His power differently. Those people believed in a God who punishes, who has wrath. That is why He sent the fire and why He sent the deluge. He will try to reach out to Humans in a way humans can understand. They didn't understand love on those days but we do now.
jeanintro 8 months ago
@jeanintro I'm not sure why you think it is disrespectful to ask how you justify the slaughtering of entire cities, let alone their moral implications. I would think anyone would be curious about such things in a similar fashion if someone suggested there was a moral upside to the holocaust.
And case in point, I've never heard of slaughtering of millions of innocents as a respectable method of "communication", let alone how you communicate love! Do you read what you type??
unclexbob 8 months ago
@unclexbob I don't consider your questions disrespectful, otherwise I wouldn't answer them, but the wording is awfully snobby. Anyways.
The Holocaust was executed by humans, was ordered by humans, was created by humans. And humans can't kill other humans, that's morally wrong.
*When you put God at the same level as a human being, then you're making things wrong.*
God is above humans. He created us and He and only He can decide what to do with our lives. I don't see what's too hard to understand.
jeanintro 8 months ago
@jeanintro If God is above humans, he should act better than the worst humans in the history of the planet, if you ask me. I think that is a very low bar to achieve for a being that is supposed to be omni benevolent.
Not to mention, there are many stories in the OT where God tells the jews to wipe out entire cities. I assume you find that acceptable human slaughter also? If so, how do you know the same God didn't tell Hitler to kill all the jews? Wouldn't that automatically make it OK?
unclexbob 8 months ago
@unclexbob He does act better than the worst humans. Those stores, those you consider "unnecessary man slaughter" are also well beyond that. Remember when and how the Bible was written. You're judging God's actions with today's laws and if he was a human. God will do His job to reach out to humans the best way possible.
And he *is* the only judge. For example, would you consider death penalty for serial rapers? Well, those people in the OT were doing bad things and God had to act.
jeanintro 8 months ago
@jeanintro You think he is the only judge. Some of us have a moral compass based on empathy and justice. We don't need your god to recognize injustice. In fact, I think you are demonstrating that beliefs in deities actually short circuits your moral compass.
The punishment for raping a woman in the OT was, you had to marry the woman. You might want to try reading it some time. You'll be surprised.
unclexbob 8 months ago
@unclexbob He is the eternal judge (the one that matters), we humans have laws for the time we are on Earth. I don't see what the problem is with gays dating and marrying each other. I do see a problem raping anyone, even once. Seems like it was the other way around back then. I don't see a problem with shaving, eating shrimp and pork, working on a Saturday, cutting my hair, etc. Do you? So why choose to follow some things and don't follow others?
You'll see, you'll need God sooner or later.
jeanintro 8 months ago
@unclexbob About Hitler: God doesn't speak to anyone out of spite or boredom. Also, God will not agree with a hate crime, with the death of people without justification. I mean, Jews aren't evil. Some of them are but that's their human nature, but most of them are wonderful people. God will not agree, like, and desire such thing now.
You need to CONSIDER THE CUSTOMS AND SOCIETY OF THE PEOPLE BACK THEN. The Bible was written word-to-word for them, but still applies in a deeper meaning to us.
jeanintro 8 months ago
Nowhere in the Bible does God condemn loving, monogamous, real relationships between a man and a man or a woman and a woman. Nowhere in the Bible does God states that you'll go to hell JUST because you're gay. And even the Catholic Church abides this teachings of "it's not a sin to be gay" by adding to their Catechism article #2358 scborromeo (dot) org/ccc/para/2358 (dot) htm
"They must be accepted with respect, compassion. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided."
jeanintro 8 months ago
@jeanintro Yeah, that's great. Now catholics need to start showing the respect and compassion.
dangerics 8 months ago
@jeanintro well without anal or oral what do you have left?
The bible is clear, homosexuality is not OK, it is laid out in leviticus. if the words arent true what is the basis for the beleief in any other part of the bible? if some can be false all can be false, why trust some and not others
aweiss 8 months ago
@aweiss So, by adhering to that verse of Leviticus word-by-word, you also accept that you're going to hell because you condemn slavery, you shave, cut your hair, eat shrimp or pork, work/go out/cook on a Saturday, etc.
The Bible makes much more sense when you take your time and interpret, not by yourself but with someone knowledgeable, what it really meant then and what it means now. The Bible has as much validity now than 500, 1000, 2000 and 3000 years ago
jeanintro 8 months ago
@jeanintro no i think the bible is bullshit. but so do you... you only take the portions of it you like. if it is not all applicable why is some of it applicable, because it appeals to your sensibilities?
if it is good for fables why not look to fictional stories not winding pointless and boring. there is a lot of good fiction out there, try amazon.
aweiss 8 months ago
@jeanintro You do know that God is not a man nor a Christinan, don't you?
Rumake 8 months ago
@Rumake What do you mean with a "man" nor a "Christian"? Of course, God is not human nor has a gender. God is Love. Also, God is not exclusive to Christianity nor he "affiliates" himself with Christianity since he is beyond religions. Humans sometimes use religions to get closer to Him but he doesn't need religion for a man or a woman to seek him.
jeanintro 8 months ago
@jeanintro I agree with your response to my questions. "Many people are already aware of the difference between spirituality and religion. They realize that having a belief system--a set of thoughts that you regard as the absolute truth-does not make you spiritual no matter what the nature of those beliefs is. In fact, the more you make your thoughts (beliefs) into your identity, the more cut off you are from the spiritual dimension within yourself."
Rumake 8 months ago
@Rumake He's whatever you imagine him to be, because he is imaginary. That's the problem. Once you have embraced this magical belief without reason sort of mindset, why would you need a rational reason to believe anything? Why not believe god hates fags? There is certainly more scripture to support that than to support your god of all faiths who loves everyone and there is no evidence or logic behind either belief. Jesus himself is supposed to have said to murder family that converts.
leavesof3 8 months ago
@leavesof3 You have blood on your hands and you can't wash it off.
Rumake 8 months ago
Even benign religion is at best irrelevant, and can be oppressive. Dan should know better than to validate superstition.
bagelboi66 8 months ago
I'd like to agree with Dan, and in a way I do. There are plenty of Christians that are okay with gays. But I'm terribly biased in that I live in the South and I've seen the conflict that gay Christians face. Quite frankly, I think a person that identifies as gay, bi, etc. is still Christian only because they are too afraid to leave their religion. That's just my bias.
MagnusIan 8 months ago
Dan, I know you're not a whore, but you need to take your shirt off and post the picture/video somewhere.
YamazaruEiki 8 months ago
Amen Dan! Right on point.
alaskaboundman 8 months ago 5
Great point - I lost my faith after reading the bible cover to cover. I wish more christians would read it.
jenzahara 8 months ago 87
@jenzahara That point is so sad but amusing at the same time.
900angryangel 8 months ago
@jenzahara they take what they want from the bible and interpret it anyway they want.
delli2011 8 months ago
@jenzahara Something I did once was go through the Old Testament and tried counting how many times God gave orders for his followers to kill people. Quite frequently he order