On Dealing with Denialists/Creationists

[Cadfan17]

I have a different interpretation. Its not that you need to be an absolute expert to know enough to get around a denialist's defense mechanisms. In fact, fear of experts is one of the defense mechanisms denialists use to avoid exactly that issue.

The problem is that even an expert on, say, evolution, is probably not an expert on evolution denialism. And that's what you really need to be. To get through to a denialist, you need to be an expert on denialism.

[fortruth8989]

You admit that morals are necessary even if you believe in evolution.

The matter of the fact is: you can't have proper morality with Christian morality; you can't have Christian morality without Christianity; you can't have Christianity without the Bible; and you certainly cannot have the Bible without Genesis 1- 11!

The sense of morality these days has changed from "Because God says so", to "because it's not nice."

Why should YOU care about what others think? You're only out to satisfy YOU!

[fortruth8989]

You finally admit it.

[fortruth8989]

From the beginning of this video...

...you can say that again.

[fortruth8989]

You are smart and funny... but incorrect.

[2lowkey100]

@fortruth8989 lol are you gonna comment on all his videos with the same comment with no way to back up what your saying like a typical creationist. idiot

[eltamin1966]

I just visited our annual family reunion on Christmas Eve: That centuries old tradition and folkore keeps religion alive in secular societies as part of national identity - associated with holidays, gifts

and a feeling of belonging. The initial religious meaning is gradually losing it's former importance.

But statistics say - not surprisingly - that religious people have generally more children. Assuming these children tend to be more religious: it's a long way to go, Mike ...

[javixm]

The user that took the approach that SolRosenberg is talking about here is the user 'potholer54'

potholer54 has a video playlist that goes into detail about basically EVERYTHING we know and, more importantly, how we know it.

Everyone watching this should go check his channel out.

[Venaloid]

Great video, subbed. I looked it up, he really did remove those chapters on geology and geographical distribution.

[unknown1129]

The Reason why these people won't listen is because what they were taught as a child will NEVER REALLY go away ever no matter how much evidence you put on the table. And for those people i pity because their parents/Gardian lied to them.

[givingmantoo]

you hit the nail on the head "defense systems" that is exactly what creationist have, a built-in spoon fed defense system.

[DisforDubby]

My advice is to be firm, but not too abrasive. I used to be a creationist idiot nut like but I had a lot of encounters with firm and intelligent people who told me things which I tried to argue, but over time I learned to really think and be honest with myself and since then I have learned all the ways I have been wrong etc.... so its not like this kind of stuff doesnt help because it does, at least in the long run. People remember all sorts of little things you know

[hellomenamehello]

thankyou very much for this video

[eltamin1966]

I see an additional reason why people often stick to their opinion against strong arguments: If you live in an environment where certain religious/political beliefs prevail, it's not easy to openly attack them. The reaction of family and friends may range from incomprehension to dismay and open hostility: "You foul your own nest". The fear to disappoint or anger "your people" and become an outsider may lead to bow to the group pressure - btw dictatorships exploit this psychological factor.

[clovenhoof616]

lol well that was (almost) an apology. dont feel 2 bad i dought these creationists woule even listen to their own god if he sat down and explained it lol

[TelevisionPirate]

I feel ya man.... I find myself getting pissed off and I use to argue with them on you tube and shit... Finally I realized I'm wasting my fucking time, so I just watch videos like yours and stay away from those pin head jesus freaks!

Every now and then I find myself saying something, and then I have a dozen mother fuckers trolling my ass! Telling me I'm going to hell, and I'm a POS! Yeah, that's really Christian like ain't it! NOT! I know most of 'em are probably kids so I try not to judge!

[epanek]

Evolution and Creation are not equal theories. Creationism is not really a theory since it is not falsifiable but that is not the issue really.

Here is the issue: Those who subscribe to evolution ARE NOT PERSONALLY attached to the theory personally in any way. If the theory needs to change or be scrapped due to new evidence so be it. Creationists ARE 100% PERSONALLY ATTACHED to their theory. It cannot be altered and new evidence cannot contradict it. There is a huge difference.

[atticana]

And to those 'scientific types' who choose to ridicule what I have just said, please consider this...Sir Isaac Newton would DEFINITELY have agreed with me on this matter and Einstein MIGHT have done so. Do any of you consider yourself greater scientists than them?

[epanek]

Appeal to Authority argument! Gogogo Hehe nice try.

[atticana]

Where science is concerned you will please forgive me kind sir if I choose to think that Sir Isaac Newton and Einstein might be rather good authorities.

[epanek]

Its still an appeal to authority argument.

Source A says that p.

Source A is authoritative.

Therefore, p is true.

[atticana]

Well dude, please forgive me if I think that Sir Isaac Newton and Einstein might be of some use in trying to ascertain scientific truth!

[epanek]

Is there something other than scientific truth?

Your argument is STILL an appeal to authority. Actually its not even that since you cannto guarantee they would agree with you. Its really a speculative appeal to authority.

[atticana]

Truth can be approached by various routes. Take Dr. Shiro Ishii, in charge of Japan's germ warfare research unit in WW2, who carried out barbaric tests on thousands of prisoners. I cannot prove scientifically that he was an evil beast and a disgrace to humanity. But he was though.

[epanek]

That is because the terms "evil beast" and "a disgrace to humanity" are subjective terms and not objective.

I do agree, however, that there are multiple paths to the "truth" There are very few truths aside from mathematical ones and clear observable truths.

[eltamin1966]

Mass murder is psychologically far easier if the victim is deprived of its human status: "Kill these pigs before they kill us". Fanatical dictators usually find enough willing helpers to carry out

atrocities up to genocide, if only for career-reasons, but usually without feeling guilty. These murderers may be kind and considerate towards family and colleagues - remember "Downfall" about Hitler's last days. For me Hitler or Stalin were political monsters, they saw themselves as saviours.

[AtheistrEvolutionist]

Science doesn't "prove" anything.

That is math.

Maybe you knew that maybe you didn't just saying for the record. As to your claim you can show why people have an evolutionary proclivity to avoiding "evil" acts.

[atticana]

I enjoy it though when you make really feisty, combative videos. Although not a 'biblical literalist' I do regard the Hebrew monotheistic tradition as the ultimate source of truth... INCLUDING SCIENTIFIC TRUTH. About 25% of Nobel Prize winners in the sciences are Jewish and nearly all the rest are from Protestant cultures, ie cultures largely formed by the Bible. Just a coincidence? Or evidence of where the foundations of truth ultimately rest?

[eltamin1966]

Is it not the air of freedom that makes science thrive? This air reached Europe with the Renaissance, from then on the tight repressive grip of both the worldly rulers and the clergy was gradually loosened, achieved in long and bitter conflicts. Other cultures had no such enlightenment, giving the West a scientific lead which it still retains. Btw I agree that the important contribution to science made by Jews is very remarkable considering their

overall small number.

[Maelwysii]

Just a coincidence, and exemplary of Jews tending to receive higher SECULAR education. :)

[atticana]

Didn't Einstein say that there was no such thing as coincidence? And if you allow yourself to believe that human history is based on coincidence then I don't think it's so unreasonable of me to believe that it is in fact based upon divine providence.

[Tyrtamus]

Maybe it's just me, but the YT creationists tend to have a hard-on for "god of the gaps" lately.

It's fun when they don't even try. They just look silly.

[eltamin1966]

During childhood one is strongly influenced by parents, family, friends and general cultural traditions, and the absorbed world view may give a feeling of great security and "understanding the world". Anyone with an opposing opinion threatens this security and may be identified as an enemy, and the ideology - whether religious or political - is defended against all arguments.

As you say: It's far easier to "understand the world" if the ideas are simple - that's very tempting.

[Antiks72]

Catholicism doesn't have a problem with accepting science (evolution); it's the Biblical literalists that insist on interpreting the Bible a certain way that do.

[lewismurray1]

Catholicism is an open scam, the cathedral got low on money and told there followers "give us money and your time in purgatory will be reduced"

and have u ever heard of "thou shalt not worship false idols" lets count the saints shall we?

and not to mention the just plain idiocy the whole thing is founded upon, its just wrong for the many reasons i dont have time to type. Watch some of sol and amazing athiest's videos and try to live a life free of the pope telling you your basic rights

[Antiks72]

My point is that the extremist fundamentalist sects of Christianity are the ones that have a problem with science. Catholicism is a little more sane. I am an atheist and I'm quite aware that religion is a scam.

[Antiks72]

AronRa has tremendous patience with these people. Further proof that AronRa is god.

[SandInTheWind7]

All the more reason to immerse yourself in the beautiful wonders of existence revealed by science ;). I think the best arguments against denialists is a little knowledge in the field of psychology/neurology, which you seem to have an excellent self awareness of.

[theprodigy2186]

I have no problems with evolution. I think it's quite obvious when you look at the facts that life has evolved to this point, and is continuing to evolve.

But I don't think that in any way disproves "god" if you want to call it that. It just disproves the Bible, which I think is great!

The one thing I might see a problem with is the law of thermodynamics vs abiogenesis.

It just seems unlikely for inanimate objects to spontaneously organize into something as complex as LIFE on it's own.

[MrFacet]

You started right #2186, but the line "It just seems unlikely for inanimate objects to spontaneously organize into something as complex as LIFE on it's own." suggests to me that you think a few gazillion of atoms suddenly sprang in position. That's not what we think.

[Antiks72]

Thermodynamics only applies to closed systems. Earth is an open system, so that argument doesn't wash.

[MrFacet]

I react differently depending on the person. And I only start discussing religion when they start it.

Then I aim to phrase my responses non violently. Some make that hard by being aggressive and insulting. To those I say that I regret their attitude.

After a while you've seen all the arguments. There aren't that many after all. Watching the Atheist Experience can help in building a basic set of answers.

I then try to get the xtian to see weak points and give sources. Some will read them.

[MrFacet]

.. and it will hopefully get them one step in the right direction. I do not expect them to drop their faith caused by my 500 word YouTube comments. It took me years too.

2 more things: 1. some believe atheists are evil. Show them you are not.

2. Many feel they should let their religious feelings go over scientific arguments. You have to respect that, even if you do not agree. It takes time to get rid of the indoctrination.

[MrFacet]

"I react differently depending on the person"

Like now, I'm poe-ing an ultimately rude christian by giving pro-islam responses. It is dishonest but he rather listens to people of another faith than to atheists. My aim is to show him that he reads the bible selectively. Up till now he is biting :).

For intelligent people that can start the cogwheels in the brain to run.

[Brianswers]

I totally agree about way of the 'master'. Scam artists. In fact, I doubt they really think the books will do anything at all. They want an excuse to tell their supporters "Look at this effort we are doing at our OWN expense. Send money!" They know they will get enough money and then some to cover their costs from the rubes.

[karadan100]

What pisses me off is the hypocrisy of people who deny science but then have no qualms about taking medicine when they get ill, watch TV when they want to be entertained, use a car to drive to work and use a cell phone when they need to talk.

Teaching this anti-education denialist attitude to their children should be a criminal offence as it perpetuates an ignorance which bleeds into society which negatively effects the lives of normal educated people.

[bossman103]

Look man. I am a Christian and I think what someone believes is up to them you cant force them to accept something they dont. I think that Creationist is good as it gets evolution taught better in schools. I think the more people who canm learn about evolution weven if they dont like science would be better for everyone

[spikesmth]

I think that this battle isn't about the opinions of experts, but the key is the general lay-knowledge of average people. You don't have to be an expert, just able to communicate the basic idea, admit ignorance where it is warranted and submit plausible ideas where you are unsure.

Hail Science, destroy their faith with the painful truth.

[Leadman1989]

"you need an entire group of scientist from different

disciplines"

yeah it's called UNIVERSITY XD

[Leadman1989]

damn i forgot to ask what kind of camera are you using

what kind of camera are you using

[TheFallibleFiend]

Here's the problem:

You are trying to be intellectually honest - and that takes effort. They don't even a basic understanding of the subject - and they don't need it, because they aren't trying to be intellectually honest.

[TheFallibleFiend]

They don't need to know what they're talking about. They just need to list a bunch of bullets with words.

If you have time and interest, check out the first two minutes of v=UGnfLGHBw6I

[myintellectualjourny]

It seems the world needs full-time counter-apologists.

One of my biases concerning "Denialists" is to suspect that behind the intellectual dishonesty - such as you site - their basic emotional sense of well-being is so entrenched in the language of their religious worldview that when it is attacked, they feel their entire reality under threat. W/out addressing this first for some, I'm afraid we may be fighting some basic human instinct itself to no avail.

[bamboo4tameshigiri]

But they are stupid, dumb and uneducated. That's being honest.

[SolRosenberg84]

Well, yeah, they are - but telling them that isn't going to help anything.

Might be better to just out-educate them, leave them in a position without a good response, and leave them thinking. Many of them may go right back to being uneducated and proudly ignorant, but some may actually start to do some research and change their minds.

At least, thats what I hope.

[bamboo4tameshigiri]

But you mentioned the problem yourself. Most of them are WILLFULLY ignorant. They call eating from the "tree of KNOWLEDGE" evil for a reason. These people will often fight to the death to remain ignorant. Most of them are a waste of oxygen. Pwning them is just for kicks. They usually make easy targets.

[SolRosenberg84]

I agree that the vast majority of them will never, ever do the work, and never do any research.

But, at the same time, there are probably the few that a bit of calm, reasoned argument mixed with a excellent understanding of evidence might actually get to. If I can help one person escape a life of family-directed ignorance, I think it would be worth it.

[myintellectualjourny]

Good stuff man - 5 stars!

Your willingness to EVOLVE in your approach is admirable (and a perfect source for a pun ;)

And you provide a great assessment.

I particular appreciate that point you make about how the difficulty of giving a comprehensive response to the assertions believers make - being all over the map - is so impractical - that it leaves them - in a sense appearing to dominate the conversation w/out a full response ever being heard by many.

[farvision]

No. Creationism is not simple. They sweep the complexity into an undefined term 'god' and pretend that solves the problems. But actually it does not solve the initial problems and creates a much worse one, which is the origin of the god(s). Even worse, since there is no evidence for the gods, the situation is stuck.

[SolRosenberg84]

Yes, but they then dodge and deny that question, and trick themselves into thinking its not a problem.

What I mean by "simplicity" is that a single person could easily memorize the entire concept and its "supporting" ideas whilst an understanding of the evidence for evolution is much more complicated and is way too much information for a single individual to memorize.

[farvision]

Ok, Sol, that's fair enough. "God done it" is "simple" until one peals back the cover and looks to see how it works (which is what I do all the time).

A simple person will only see that outer layer.

[DuragonLeMente]

Reminds me of mysticalforest.