Why don't women read or pray in Bethlehem's church services?

[bayreuth79]

Mr Piper's understanding is no doubt derived from the NT book of Timothy, but this is almost certainly not written by Paul, who, in his authentic letters (such as 1 & 2 Corinthians, etc) seems to take a directly opposite view.There just isn't any good reason why women shouldn't participate as preachers; why not?

[iBBrite]

@bayreuth79 o.O? How can you say that the book of 1&2 Timothy isn't written by Paul, when clearly it is stated in the beginning of the books. Also the Bible does give qualifications for elders and deacons(men).

[XSC3]

so evangelicals who harp on the "priesthood of ALL believers" (to slam on Catholics usually) argument really don't apply it in this case (at least if they agree with Piper)

[wolftreetree]

Its Pauline doctrine



[gazamused]

Your God is imaginary! Bronze age mythology. copied off stories of hundreds of star gods who went before.(you can research this) Invented by desert tribes trying to make sense of there small world- Sand,camels, sky and stars.

[Aaron637]

@gazamused ur imaginary.

[gazamused]

@Aaron637 Great come back there! Go see a doctor.

[Aaron637]

@gazamused I cant see u...ur not real. I see text..i could assume a persons on the other end...don't want to presume though.

[gazamused]

@Aaron637 Actual text responding to comments is a good basis for thinking someone is real. im real I just responded to your comment in text. What the hell do you think is on the other end?

[Aaron637]

@gazamused AI?

[XSC3]

@gazamused sorry but dm. ("acharya s") murdock's "astrotheology" is about as real a theory as the magic in lucky charms. do you find the "God(s)" of cultures where things are "big" anymore compelling? btw, in what sense is "everything small" in a society like the Egyptians or the Greeks? they knew about large things and a larger world

[graceteam]

I totally do not agree on John Piper, and John Macarthur's stand on this position. N.T. Wright, a New Testament scholar makes a great, historical, and theological case for this position. Search out here in youtube, "N.T. Wright on Women in Ministry 5" Blessings!

[Aaron637]

@graceteam NT Wright has a messed up theology...John piper addresses his assault on the historic teaching of justification- the new perspective on paul etc. How can u trust a man that goes wrong on such a pivitol issue.

[ElasticGiraffe]

@Aaron637 Pastor Piper's "old perspective" theology reflects 16th-century Calvinism. Bishop Wright's "new perspective" theology reflects 1st-century Jewish Christianity. I wonder whose interpretations we should go with...

[Aaron637]

@ElasticGiraffe I retract the above statement. My theology has been smashed by pastors in my own church heavily influenced by Wright....he may be onto something. But I still think alot is uncertain and always will be - Just trust in Christ and love I say :)

[drew2world]

If we are going to ignore a doctrine and say God ordains some women to preach, wouldn't you rather ignore the reality of eternal torment in hell? Women preaching or not preaching is not as horrific as hell right? If we are going to pick and choose, let's start by erasing hell, then move, eventually, to the men and women doctrines.

We either take the entire Bible as a whole or we choose only the parts that are "appropriate". In the end, doctrines of hell are much more in-"appropriate".

[drew2world]

@drew2world my real point is, if Christians believe that God made hell, why would it surprise anyone that Christians believe that women cannot have pastoral authority over men?

[CuteLittleRedWagon]

You're not appropriate! Get bent.

[TheSkhof]

The word of God comes to the children of God not of cain's!!

drakegod84 read please 1 Timothy chap 2 v 8 to 15 for your sake. John 17 V 17: Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

[TheSkhof]

to drakegod84: know that the word of God comes to the children of God, not of cain!!

[drakegod84]

sexist bastard! go back to your Puritian 17th century

[TheSkhof]

@drakegod84 The word of God comes to the children of God not of cain's!!

drakegod84 read please 1 Timothy chap 2 v 8 to 15 for your sake. John 17 V 17: Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

[drakegod84]

@TheSkhof pauline doctrine again aye... more and more each day i see christians rejecting everything after the 4th gospel of john. out of all the people of the bible i would have to say that sual of tartus is my most disliked. idk man..... when i'm confused about what's right, and what's wrong, i turn to jesus, and not someones doctrine. jesus would be the first one to stand up against that jew law that piper preaches. no ones chosen man, we're all chosen, didn't you read rob bells book?

[patriciacarrasco]

<3 <3<3

[UrukEngineer]

This lunatic makes me worried for the soul of America

[mariuspieter]

@UrukEngineer well, since America's "soul" is based upon the self and the service to the self, which is exactly the opposite of what the bible preaches, yeah... I guess your comment makes sense that way.

[UrukEngineer]

@mariuspieter I am an Atheist personnally, but understand that many people don't hold the same view as me on reliigion.

However I believe that men and women have equal standing. The bible is replete with examples where women are treated like 2nd class citizens, prohibiting them from being able to preach is just one example. It is what you DO that counts; this discrimination is bad.

To those women who accept this I say " Just blink and I'll know you are being held against your will"

[NerdilyDone]

@UrukEngineer Many wrong things happen in the Bible. This doesn't mean the Bible supports those wrong things.

Honestly, I just think that if a woman is doing the thing God gave her as an individual to do, then she really never has to worry about corporate standards. In many places in the Bible too, where men are wusses women are able to take over.

[UrukEngineer]

@NerdilyDone Hmm, so does that mean that you support the right for women to be "preachers"?

[NerdilyDone]

@UrukEngineer Well, yeah, there are women capable of those kinds of things. However, being a woman, I do know how crazy us chicks can get. We often are led around by our silliest emotions. Most of the time I prefer male pastors, but I'm not willing to write off chicks completely, especially if they are called by God to do what they do.

[UrukEngineer]

@NerdilyDone LOL. As I said earlier " Just blink and I'll know you are being held against your will"

[NerdilyDone]

@UrukEngineer Logic is infinitely superior to sarcasm.

[UrukEngineer]

@NerdilyDone ... I don't follow..?

[ih8makinusernames]

because they are too busy cooking silly.

[l33tpwnzord]

@ih8makinusernames

Don't be an idiot

[SkiesVibrant]

@yermomsboxx To be completely candid, I'm glad to be a NT Christian and not an OT Jew. I don't mean that as any disrespect to Jews either. It's just the facts! LOL! I don't know what your background is, so I don't want to sound like I'm condescending to you. I never want to do that. But sometimes I come across that way, so I just want you to know up front, that's not the case. Surely the scripture of the jot and the title is there and cannot be avoided, nor should it be.

[SkiesVibrant]

(a) Jesus indeed said that. But I think what you are missing is that Jesus fulfilled the law and completely satisfied it by his death on the cross. I'm not suggesting that we just tear the OT out of the Bible. It's instructive and shows how much OT prophecy has come true in NT events. Here are some scriptures that might help you. Mt 5:17-18, 26:61, 27:48. Ro 10:4, Ga 3:23-23, Eph 2:15, Acts 6:14, 2Cor 6:1. There are many more.

[SkiesVibrant]

(b). Remember when some of the NT Christians were telling the apostle Paul they still felt they should follow the law regarding circumcision? Paul essentially said "Go for it" Not to be sacreligious, but that's what he said. But he added a caveat. "If you want to follow the law, You must follow ALL of the law PERFECTLY. I don't know any perfect Christians. In fact I know few really good ones including me. Do you want to take this to pm's so the conversations flows better?

[yermomsboxx]

@SkiesVibrant (2)"But I think what you are missing is that Jesus fulfilled the law and completely satisfied it by his death."

Yes, but I think you may be misinterpreting the verse. Jesus says to adhere to the laws, verbatim, "till heaven and earth pass away." By saying this, it becomes clear that he was not speaking of the resurrection, which would have happened long ago, but the formation of the new heaven and the new earth, which certainly has not happened at this point in time.

[SkiesVibrant]

@yermomsboxx I'll take it to pm, so we can present our competing beliefs in a more organized way so that we may learn from each other. I'm not one who thinks I know it all. I've been a Christian longer than 40 years, but the Bible never ceases to amaze and enlighten.

[yermomsboxx]

@SkiesVibrant (1) Haha, I understand completely. This is why, around the time of the canonization of the Bible, Macion argued that the Torah should be disregarded altogether to avoid such problems. But that's what I was getting at before. When Christ says that not a "jot" or "tittle" should be changed, he is clearly saying that the laws should remain unchanged (Matt 4:17). In my previous post, I demonstrated how those laws were sexist.

[u4230088]

1 Corinthians 11 - Women pray and prophesy in public, and this is endorsed by Paul.

I'm worried when Churches take preventing women's authority so far that women are only allowed to speak in public if it's about things other than the Jesus or the bible. What sort of priorities does that reflect?

[graceinmay]

@u4230088 it's Biblical, friend. women may prophecy and pray and share the Gospel, but having authority over men or leading men within the church, as a Pastor or Bishop is wrong. the leadership in the pulpit and over men and over a mixed audience of Christians, however, needs to go to men.

[SkiesVibrant]

Yep... I had some young men & women with degree in Psychology sitting in my classes because their degrees were worthless.

But, that's not even a point with taking up. I found your statement "EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGY' says it all. LOL. That's rebellion!

I'm not perfect (far from it), but I know that God made me uniquely different than men. It's not a matter of one being better than the other. It's a matter of God's design for the world and our families. Atheist haven't made it better..

[PookySharif]

You sexist fuck.

[mandymomdotcom]

*Nods*  Fully agree, Piper! :)

[scottvj]

John- If this is such a small in Bethlehem's worship services (I think you actually said "tiny" thing), then why is it actually such a BIG thing to you?

Scott Johnson (Former student of John and grateful that I had the opportunity to tap into where he was at that time in my spiritual formation. Also grateful to have later jettisoned abusive partriarchical thinking).

[matthew11and25]

ummmm let's change "women" to "some women".

[jeffmaraman1]

Biblically, Piper is not out of line. Women are not supposed to speak in church, let alone teach. (see I Timothy).

[tbursee]

He is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. That is just what the bible says , and thats exactly what it means. Women have been brainwashed to believe that submission to a man means the man is some how better. Do you submit to your boss on your job? Does that mean your boss is better than you ? No, but you submitting allows your boss to do their job. God gave the woman a man for her own protection. When you buck that order , you pay the price , whic usually start with confusion.

[UnrealHelix]

@tbursee Solid!

[UncleBernie2]

*how

[UncleBernie2]

I wonder ho many women hate you for saying this? And I Mean "Christian" Women! God bless you, Pastor John Piper for your courage to stand for principals based on the Word of God. May we see your example and follow accordingly, I pray in the name of Jesus, amen.

[SkiesVibrant]

@UncleBernie2

As a Christian woman, I support John Piper completely. We are not second class citizens, but we are ordained and designed by God to have complimentary role with men. The Bible, taken in totality, teaches this. Yes, there were some women who taught in the Bible, but there is not a single verse that says that they led a congregation of believers. There was teaching in the homes, Deborah was a judge, etc.

Christian women, embrace the way God designed you and be thankful.

[UnrealHelix]

@SkiesVibrant I think your view is pretty solid

[SkiesVibrant]

@UnrealHelix

My friend, it's not my view. I believe it is the scriptural view. God in his majesty has created order. I do not question it, but hold His scriptures in my heart. We have a real problem in our society with people thinking they know more than the Savior does and making up all manner of excuses to try to make their own ideas fit within scripture instead of letting scripture form the ideas. Rebellion is everywhere.

Blessings to you.

[UnrealHelix]

@SkiesVibrant I agree! Its not about what I think or feel about it, the Word of God is absolute and His revelation confirms its meaning, we need to obey & not compromise.

[SkiesVibrant]

@UnrealHelix

I must admit, that I often feel angry at women who twist scripture to fit their own ideas of the current culture. It's something I have to work on constantly. I recently saw a quite beautiful young woman claiming God called her to be a Pastor and preach from the pulpit. Satan has his filthy hands in everything and sadly women who have been brainwashed by an ungodly culture are falling right into line. I wish they could find the joy in the design God created in them.

[GodLovesUs100]

@SkiesVibrant Thank you for that comment.I also am a Christian woman( well, I'm a teenager lol) but too agree with John here.I also see that the Bible gives men and woman different roles inside the church and the home.You're right, embrace the way God has designed..he has called us for a purpose and there is a reason to his law in ways we cannot begin to comprehend.

Bottom line-God is righteous and Holy, he knows what he is talking about and what is best for us

[SkiesVibrant]

@GodLovesUs100 Thanks for your very kind words. It's encouraging to see that YOUNG women can see their place within the kindgdom as something special and uniquely ours. Our God is PERFECT and he designed us with all the attributes that he knew would ultimatelu glorifu HIM.

You only have to look at the dying denominations to see what happens when the limits are pressed and women demand ordination. We can't expect God to bless us, if we can't even follow Hiw word. Blessings to you :).

[GodLovesUs100]

@SkiesVibrant Amen.That is so true.I long for a godly women to look up to in my life.No one in my family is a Bible-believing Christian and I am quite recent convert so I have not matured all that much and found godly fellowship.So thank you for the wisdom.We, humans, have no authority to declare God's law to be incorrect...what he says is True, he is Perfect and so his law and word are also perfection.

Blessings to you too..

Peace.

[SkiesVibrant]

@GodLovesUs100 If you need any help at all, let me know. My best advice for young Christians is to "fix your eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith" as scripture mandates. Guard your mind and be careful who you listen to. There are many, many wolves among the sheep. I've been in your shoes, but our gloriously Lord will keep you. Be careful also of those videos that try to convince you the Bible says something it doesn't. God Bless you.

[GodLovesUs100]

@SkiesVibrant Thanks so much! The Lord has been good, he has allowed me to grow in knowledge of him and in truth in many ways.The problems of sin are a fight and being surrounded by wickedness like in school for example is also something hard to deal with.I want to live a full confessional life-but my flesh is weak.I just want to live to bring glory to God but then my flesh gets in the way :(

[PookySharif]

@SkiesVibrant

Yes, god doesn't want you in a position of power. He wants you to shut up and serve men, for you are the origin of original sin.

[SkiesVibrant]

@PookySharif .. Wow, I haven't read that in the scriptures. God sees us equal but different. You know the first person to see Jesus after the resurrection was Mary Magdalene. Do you think he'd give that honor to a 2nd class citizen? Deborah was judge.. You also have your creation story backwards. Eve was deceived, Adam went along knowingly. That makes Adam look very unwise, yes? God made us to have complimentary roles. FYI, I'm a 20 year Navy veteran who participated in the gulf war.

[PookySharif]

@SkiesVibrant

But Jesus was a man. The disciples were all men. Eve was subject to deception. God wants you to serve in church but not to preach. Don't give me this "women should be complementary to man" bullshit. There is no reason a woman can't serve any role a man can. The bible is simply trying to preserve patriarchal structure. Please, point out one observable physiological or psychological trait exclusively found in woman that defies that.

[SkiesVibrant]

@PookySharif You are talking to a Navy nurse and an anatomy and physiology teacher. Want to try a different question? You don't have to but it probably would be wise because there isn't enough space on all of You Tube to describe the physiological and psychological differences.

[PookySharif]

@SkiesVibrant

And you are talking to a clinical psychologist with a background in evolutionary biology. I am referring specifically to an anatomical feature that prevents women from serving the same social functions as men.

[yermomsboxx]

@SkiesVibrant I have to disagree. I think you may be using "complimentary" as a euphemism for "lesser."

For example,

A woman was considered unclean for one week if she bore a son, but she was considered unclean for 66 days if she bore a daughter. This clearly shows that women were considered more sinful than men (Lev. 12:2, 12:5)

Also, how can a person not be considered a second-class citizen when she is placed in "subjection" to someone else based solely on her gender? (1 Peter 3:5)

[SkiesVibrant]

@yermomsboxx I appreciate your reply & the friendly tone. It's usually so confrontational and ugly when these kinds of issues arise. It's hard to work with the 500 character limit, but I will try. LOL.

No, I'm not using a euphemism. I simply can't find anything in the Bible that clearly says women are lesser creatures than men. We have many, many examples of the leadership roles women have undertaken not only in the Gospel accounts, but the OT as well. So, that's a non-starter for me

[SkiesVibrant]

(2) Aren't we all in subjection to the God? God created Adam first. Yet, Adam was not complete without Eve. But even if Eve had been first, the result would have been the same. We need each other. The very nature of the word 'need' implies that there is something that is not complete within us and it has little to do with procreation. For me it's a matter of how our differences only make us more whole, not less whole. God ordained women to be different from men for HIS good purposes.

[SkiesVibrant]

(3) I was in the Navy for 20 years and I can tell you that plenty of men took orders from me. I was also a teacher for more than 10 years, but no child who who was in subjection to me, was ever in any way 'less' than me.

God created an orderly universe & an orderly design for our responsibilities to each other. In terms of scripture, God tells men: "Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her". Is that a command from a God who thinks women are lesser?

[SkiesVibrant]

(4) Of course it's not. I have abilities and talents my husband does not have, and he likewise has abilities and talents I do not possess. That is a description of how we compliment each other. We can argue specific points of scripture back & forth all day, but the entire body of scripture describes how we are to work together for the good of the Gospel message. If my husband is in full subjection to God, I'm overjoyed to follow God's plan for our lives.

[SkiesVibrant]

(5) John Piper also has a video that is titled "Jesus Treated Women Differently". Having been in the military during Desert Storm, I can promise you, Arab men do not speak to women and are highly disrespectful to them. I have a story that happened to me in Saudi Arabia that would freak you out! LOL. The Jewish culture was exactly this way when Jesus walked the earth, yet he spoke to women.

[yermomsboxx]

@SkiesVibrant (2)

Besides, "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." It seems strange to me that many Christians today seem to disregard these laws simply because they are considered old, even though they are, according to the Bible, God's laws.

[yermomsboxx]

@yermomsboxx

And I'm not accusing you of disregarding them, but what do you think?

[yermomsboxx]

@SkiesVibrant

Haha...I know what you mean about the 500 character limit.

"For me it's a matter of how our differences only make us more whole, not less whole. God ordained women to be different from men for HIS good purposes."

Yes, but how can one justify verses like the first set I listed, in which there is a clear difference between the way women are treated for bearing sons or for bearing daughters? To state that one sex is inherently less holy than another is wrong on many levels.

[SkiesVibrant]

@yermomsboxx I agree that this seems discriminatory. But we are talking the Levitical law here. The same law that forbade mixing of fabrics, hybrid plants, dietary laws, etc. If you go to 1 Timothy 2:13-15, you'll see how this is law is lifted as are all OT mosaic laws. Jesus held men & women to the same standards of Godliness, but if you read the accounts of His encounters with "sinful" women, you can see his utter love, respect and lovingkindness to them. I love the account of Luke 7. 36+

[yermomsboxx]

@SkiesVibrant (1)

I'm certainly not saying that Jesus did not show mercy to women, but that has little do with your initial statement: "I simply can't find anything in the Bible that clearly says women are lesser creatures than men." Don't those verses in Leviticus prove the opposite? I understand that there are bizarre laws in Leviticus, but they are contained in the Bible nonetheless.

[underage20]

@SkiesVibrant Thank you! There are so few women that still feel this way! God Bless You for your humbleness and your willingness to follow Him!

[39139]

@UncleBernie2: I feel that you're implying that women who are uncomfortable with what John is saying or who disagree with it are all false christians. If that is the case, then I respectfully disagree with you, sir.

[UncleBernie2]

@39139

I'm sorry, but I was not at all inferring that women who are uncomfortable with what Pastor John Piper is saying or who disagree with his explanation are all false Christians. Please do not confuse my speculation with accusation.

I admired Pastor Piper's courage to publicly admit what his position is about allowing women to perform certain roles in the church in our present culture and how might some women may have reacted to this message. That's all.

[vico100]

I agree with Piper completely.

[shaunehw]

this is the only time i have ever disagreed with John Piper

[mandminjapan]

Why do you disagree? It seemed his reasons and principles for doing it that way were Scriptural.

[booksandvideos]

@shaunehw can you explain why? Just out of curiosity.