Very interesting and I agree with you completely. The only caveat as I see it would be the interpretation authority a prophet would have. The most important elements to the gospel can be understood with confidence when the council comes from those having the authority to interpret God's council. As stated in Eph 4, doctrines are meant to be kept in check through the proper authority of the prophets and apostles. Something most people deny. What do you think?
The diverse views and interpretations in early Christianity are an immensely fascinating topic, for me, too. And also my access point are the books of Bart Ehrman. So, I guess, I should put Dunn on my reading list. Thanks, Kerry!
Yes, there are several very interesting and informed New Testament scholars who deal with all sorts of issues in the scriptures that most refuse to even acknowledge exist. Ehrman is one, as is Mark S. Smith, Margaret Barker, Robert Eisenman, E. P. Sanders, James Sanders and hosts of others.
Going back to your chess videos Kerry.We have the desire to become better in chess in common.No interpretations there"grin".I guess you could interpret a move as being good or bad.It's my interpretation that all chess software is evil!!!
Kerry I derive no fun or pleasure out of informing you about facts,not interpretations.I've always wondered how so many people could be deceived by one man,but it has happened in the past,and will continue in the future.
I will give you credit for seeking answers and even going against the grain with your Mormon constituents.That could get you in a lot of trouble if the right Mormon hears some of these interpretations you have.The head of the LDS church is a prophet the minute he takes over,Bah!
@TheBackyardProfessor Thanks to cyberherbalist. He reminded us of an important "truth" Kerry, not simply an interpretation.
Christ said there would be false prophets, as such there must be True Prophets, as such True Prophets have the Truth, not simply "interpretation" Kerry. There was a True Church then, and there is now. It was less perfect then, but it certainly existed. This all truth is relative/interpretation simply because everyone believes differently is not Truth, it is Atheist.
And cyberherbalist also showed how he interprets my videos as having no problems. But you interpret them as having problems. So thank you for pointing out that cyberherbalist is correct as well, it is all interpretation.
@pocatellodave That's interesting how you don't seem to understand the LDS church. The "right Mormon"? Which one? Someone who will report him to the leadership? Oh, come on. We are not so hide-bound as you seem to think. And I've listened to this video closely enough to wonder what on earth you think TBP is talking about here that would be so horrifying to the Church. Nothing he has said is at all problematic.
Thanks. I honestly did not think I said anything against Mormonism..... truly..... So far as I am aware, in over 1,000 videos there should be nothing that would horrify anyone in Mormonism. I am loving learning things of various subjects, and sharing them..... exploring my own journey of faith as it were.
Jesus said there will be many false prophets and they will deceive many.Joseph Smith was a false prophet.Deuteronomy chapter 18,verse 20 pretty much covers false prophets.Kerry you said you are a Free Mason.I maintain Joseph Smith brought a lot of the Free Mason's rituals into the only true church!Most Mormons aren't even aware of this fact.
Most Biblical scholars consider the Mormon church a cult!So I consider the source that is trying to attack the NT as unreliable.
@pocatellodave That Christ said there would be false prophets presupposes that there would be true prophets as well. But what has traditional Christianity had for true prophets? The last I am aware of was Agabus, nearly 2,000 years ago. Jesus never said there would be no more prophets at all. Mohammed was the author of that notion. Just saying.
An honest response would be that the truth in Mormonism is fine.....for me, for Lee, and other Mormons. Others don't find it right for them, their experience and interpretations are not ours.....
again, Im only half way through this first video. You state that all organized relgions dumb things down. I don't disagree with this statement, but it leads to me ask you reguarding your own religion. Is Mormonism another watered down version of Truth? What does Mormonism offer someone like yourself who seems open to finding truths in all religions?
@clearpathtofollw As you note, that is exactly what he believes, and it's a problem. Further, finding truth in all religions and things is LDS Theology, but you don't do it to such a degree to destroy the truth, to say things as he has that "Sunday School" Mormonism is fantasy's not the truth etc. He simply goes to far into atheistic judgments of religious history. His arguments are not new, and they've been well debunked, yet he acts like they are some great wonderful truth.
I'm only half way through this first video but I have to ask you Mr. Shirts if you feel the same way about the Book of Mormon when you say that the Bible is "interpreted truth". Is the BOM also interpreted Truth? Does truth as absolutism exist anywhere in religion? Is absolute doctorine necessary? Is the Book of Mormon simply LDS interpretation of Truth?
Hey :) Aren't we supposed to be on the same side? Isn't it terribly ironic to have contention over Jesus? Discussion and difference is all good but I think the way it is being discussed would not please Jesus.
We aren't arguing about Jesus, we are arguing about Lees incredibly incorrect understanding of what I am saying about the Gospels and their actual nature and reality. Lee loves to stick with an ideology that has very little basis in fact, I like to study the history and actual truth and knowledge about them. Lee calls that the atheist argument which is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.
@TheBackyardProfessor My judgment is based in fact also..... Just like I find Mormon thought to be superior to Christian thought, I consider what I've studied superior to what you now embrace, things I've also studied. It IS a common Atheist ideology, you can cry about it all you want, that it's not, but I've studied also, I know what is interpretation, and what isn't, your "actual truth" is not actual truth, it's the perversion of it. Wolfs in sheep's clothing is still just that.
I ask God to to help me understand the Bible,and he is true to his word,giving me help when something is hard for me to understand.It isn't my place to pass judgement on people who attempt to interpret the Bible in there own way.I could add many negative things to this blog,but I will not.Man has been messing up a very simple thing for a long time.
Kerry I enjoy your chess lessons,and I hope I can improve via your hard work.
The New Testament is not just made up stories, the scholars I am using have demonstrated that what we have in the New Testament documents is INTERPRETED information about traditions told about Jesus. These traditions were interpreted 40-70 years after Jesus' death, and each Gospel gives it's own agenda and twist on that interpretation. Matthew is the most Jewish, etc.
Jesus was real,and he didn't make any mistakes.He was sinless,and he done his Fathers will.The only way to the Father is through the Son.All the education in the world isn't going to change that fact.Revelation chapter 22 verses 18-19 covers the subject of adding to or taking away from the Bible very nicely.
Yes, that is an interpretation of Jesus, to be sure, but not the singular orthodox interpretation of the earliest Christians, because there wasn't one. Dunn is POWERFUL on the evidence from the New Testament itself on this. And, your interpretation of the meaning of that verse in Revelation is not about the entire Bible, but about John's revelation the Apocalypse alone.
What an awesome insight that the early christians did not have the new testament and that these characters were actually creating the scripture as they went, being there very lives. Kinda helps with the understanding of the Mormon church today, You just strengthened my testamony, thank you
"Historical reality is always more complex and fascinating than the orthodox of any tradition would like us to believe. The winners rewrite history, and the rewrite is almost always a simplification. Simplifications are helpful to give us an initial grasp, but we should never content ourselves with them."--David Noel Freedman
Also your comment about there was "no original way" or true way to interpret scripture is also false. There is true interpretation. One reason I know this for sure is because I spent years in many religions, embracing no interpretation at all, and reading the Bible and judging for myself, and seeing for myself that no religion fit the book in full or accurately. Only when I came upon mormonism, did a religion in full and accurately fit the book. There is absolute truth.
James Dunn is who I am studying right now, and his interpretation on the diversities of ideas and thinking in the New Testament ..... I am enjoying learning others' views, and I appreciate you expressing yours Lee.
@TheBackyardProfessor Please understand I don't deny "some" of what your saying.... But, applying it to the entire New Testament when maybe around 60% of it doesn't fit that standard, is wrong. No one denies that the early Church wrote some of their own stuff, that a lot is missing, a lot was not put into the Bible, that there are translation issues, etc. No one is denying that many of the recordings worked off of each other, etc., but to say it's ALL just later interpretation, poppycock.
It is ALL later interpretation, not poppycock......you are discovering what I already did, that I haven't been taught the truth of early Christianity as I ought to have had given to me. There is NO actual Bible scholars (LDS or non LDS) who will claim and be able to demonstrate that the Gospels or Paul's letters are eyewitness accounts of Jesus' earthly life. There are later writings we have as our New Testament, but no documents from Jesus' day. NONE.
@TheBackyardProfessor So what.... You're saying that just because we don't have the actual "physical" letter so and so wrote, that we have a copy of it, that it just didn't exist, and it's all made up? That's simply bull Kerry. The early Christians were not THAT unethical. I'm not saying things weren't done here or there, but you are going to far. You're actually saying that the entire new testament is made up storys??? That the story's weren't scribal recordings, etc.? You go to far.
You are putting our modern thinking onto the ancients, a serious no no in methodology. Yes, the Gospels are religious propaganda, get over it. That is not to say their faith is false. But their history is definitely not what really happened. Crimany man, you need to get with the program and read broader. Take a clue form Joseph Smith or Hugh Nibley or someone already man. They showed us the way how to get an understanding.....
@TheBackyardProfessor Kerry, don't put your assumptions of me onto me.... I don't put any modern thinking at all in the matter. I've already told you that "some" of what you are saying is valid, but you take things way too far. The Gospels are religious propaganda, the history is not what happened etc. etc.??? Do you even hear yourself? You have taken learning to the hilt and then think you are wise.... If they were made up they sure did a poor editing job.
As I say, I sincerely suggest you read Dunn, "Unity and Diversity in the New Testament." I have learned more of Early Christianity in this book and his book called "The Partings of the Ways," than I have learned in 50 years in Mormonism. Our church does NOT teach us about the history of Christianity or the nature of the New Testament. It teaches doctrine, not history, without realizing apparently, that the two often effect each other. It is not a threat to learn the real history.
Even Mormonism does NOT declare it has the absolute truth and final say so...... there is MUCH that we do not know and cannot know in this life, hence the injunction to seek in the best books of knowledge. One cannot learn the ABSOLUTE truth here and now in mortality.
@TheBackyardProfessor Of course Mormonism claims to have the absolute truth, as so far revealed, the important stuff God want's us to know. What planet are you on? No one is questioning that there are other truths out there, that we don't have everything that's ever existed. But, that's not what you've been saying. You're saying we're all in the same muck, and that's simply false. The Church not while being entirely free from human failings most certainly DOES stand apart, and is different.
Also, this idea that all the New Testament was simply written much later is also ridiculous. Many of the letters of the Apostles were actual letters to the Churches, by the individuals in question. Of course, most likely all the Gospels were written by scribes, and some were compiled later, but most were not at all simply later "interpretations". The Revelation of John was not an interpretation, etc. etc. Who-evers making these arguments are painting with too broad a brush.
The scholarship on the later writing of the Gospels is truly quite solid, not ridiculous. My advice is widen your reading range and see the facts. There are literally *no eye witness* documents written in Jesus' day, during his lifetime on or about his life. All of them are later. This is where the church has failed us in accurate knowledge of history. It's incorrect, and the scholars are right.
@TheBackyardProfessor Kerry..... simply because you are willing to believe every new claim some new scholar makes doesn't make that claim true. Again, are you actually saying that various Apostles "did not" write various letters to the Churches, many of which still exist some not in the Bible? Are you saying Revelations was not written by John? (of course I'm speaking of scribes etc., not necessarily the men themselves)
Except for a few brief letters of Paul (not the forgeries in the NT attributed to him but the letters themselves), yes I am saying that the writings we know by the names of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are NOT authored by them in Jesus' day, but are much later written by someone else in a later time looking back onto the life of Christ......that has been absolutely fundamentally SOLIDLY established.
@TheBackyardProfessor That is simply false Kerry.... Of course we know that those "particular" Gospel were not authored by them themselves, but that's NOT what you have been saying. Those Gospels are scribal recordings and eyewitness testimony that was later compiled and written down. We've always known the 4 Gospels to not be written by them. That's why they are called the "Gospels of so and so". You've been condemning the entire New Testament, not just parts were know had later recording.
Your understanding of what I have said is simply wrongheaded. I am not condemning anything, I am learning the truth about the scriptures. To say I condemn anything is simply silly. I am studying history, not doctrine. There is a vast difference.
No, it's not. It's the reality you refuse to understand and face. Your are in cognitive dissonance. I understand the actual and real history far better than I used to, and I will admit, it darn sure isn't what I have been taught in Sunday School, that's for sure!
@TheBackyardProfessor cont.... I don't deny your claim that SOME of the New Testament was compiled/written much later, that's been long known, but also much of it was not. You are making sweeping claims in these videos that are entirely false, that have well documented backing against. Further, your wave of the hand judgment/condemnation against those who call some scholared works liberal, atheist, etc. is wrong. Not always, but often it's for good reason, because they DO warp the truth.
EVERYONE warps the truth Lee......that is precisely THE point of the videos. There is no objective truth out there, it is ALL filtered thrugh human minds.
@TheBackyardProfessor That is simply not true Kerry..... There is the truth that someone CAN have, and then there is the truth that is warped. It's simply false that all things are warped from their intent simply because they go through the human mind. We all know that the human mind can error, but that's far different from your claim. Just because "some" humans error, doesn't mean all do. Again, you go too far.
Oh? So there are some humans here on earth who are infallible? Please do name one........ just because you cannot handle the truth doesn't mean others of us can't either.
@TheBackyardProfessor Wow Kerry..... It's so funny how you start acting like an anti-mormon. You should know very well what I'm talking about. I.E. Despite the Church containing fallible humans, the infallible truths of God ARE contained there-in. If you no longer believe these things as I years ago warned you that you were developing false ideas, then fine.
And you act like a typical Mormon in labeling anything that scares you to death because it is different than what you think you know as truth and reality. So I am now acting like an anti-Mormon by learning from the best books of early Christian history? Forgive me but......BWAHAHAHAHA! That is hilarious! Nibley also would have to wear that label then, and the entire Neal A. Maxwell Institute roster of wonderful LDS scholars.
@TheBackyardProfessor I'm only contending against YOUR arguments, not LDS scholars. You state that the entire New Testament is simply later "interpretation". That is false. Many of the books were in fact written by the individuals in question, or their scribes, what wasn't was a compilation of scribes works, notes & testimony. I've never contended that there isn't "some" interpretation in the New Testament, I'm contending against your claim. Your claim is an old atheist anti-religion claim.
An old atheist argument - HOWLING LAUGHTER!!!!!!!!!!! You be one funny man Lee............. it scares you to learn something other than what you learn in Sunday school, that's why you feel the need to mischaracterize things as either atheist or anti-Mormon, that way you feel safe in your little coccoon of fluffy understanding. Yer welcome to it, as for me, I shall continue learning out of the best books as I have always done.
@TheBackyardProfessor You know Kerry.... You're acting just like an elitist arrogant anti-mormon and liberal right now. Simply because you've read Dunn you're somehow the know it all, and if anyone disagrees with you, then they aren't as "learned" as you, that we are just comfortable little Sunday school morons, and have never learned anything else. You don't know me Kerry, but YOU are for the world to see. That's my opinion of your extreme and thus false views. But enjoy your elitism.
I am presenting new ideas that I have learned from Dunn, and YOU are the one coming on here claiming its the atheist argument, wrong headed, and that you have the truth, you alone, and you haven't even read Dunn yet....... But, I am the one who is now acting like a liberal (oh shame!), atheistic anti-Mormon??? I love how because you obviously haven't got a clue about the true nature of the Bible, you then call me names, label the information I share incorrectly, and I'm the bad guy
@TheBackyardProfessor Kerry.... I only judge what you say. You throw out common anti-mormon ad hom's and cop-outs, and elitist judgments of if I only read what you read, then I wouldn't be stupid, you judge things like an atheist, etc. etc. Again, Dunn isn't the first to come out with such arguments, and your judgment acting like he is and it's all something wonderful and new just tells me you're the one pre-judging me. I'm giving you my judgment of your comments, and you can't handle it.
I haven't thrown out any anti-Mormon ad homs...... I am simply stating facts. Elitist judgments? I am simply stating the way things are.Judge things like an atheist?!? That is just stupid on your part Lee. I have never once said Dunn was the first, but he says it far better than most I have read, and makes terrific sense of it all in ways that others have missed. Sorry my excitement causes you to miss completely what I am doing. Oh well...
@TheBackyardProfessor Kerry, your judgments of me are not facts, they are common tactics used by those I've stated. As to some of your conclusions, or Dunns, they are simply false, and common atheist judgments, which as I've already said, take some truth too far. The majority of the New Testament simply is not "interpretation". The Letter's alone and Johns Revelation and more all equaling at least some half of the New Testament clearly debunks your/Dunns claims. Those are facts also.
Like I said, and you continue to prove, until you read Dunn, you simply cannot....*cannot* understand his idea of the Gospels, letters, epistles, etc. ALL being interpretations. EVERYTHING written is interpretation.
@TheBackyardProfessor Kerry, I do actually understand the "base" idea you are trying to say, that because everything goes through a mortal in your mind it becomes interpretation. The problem & thing that you are forgetting, is that when God's Will and True Servants are in the mix, it IS NOT interpretation any longer. It is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH and Will of God.... His Doctrines, His Truths.... NOT mans truths, not man's interpretations. There are the doctrines of men, and the doctrines of God.
No it is not. It is always interpreted through human minds. Can you refute that? Show me anything that is not interpreted in this life..... go ahead try and show me.
@TheBackyardProfessor The fact that everything is interpreted doesn't mean that everything is relative and/or false interpretation. There is true interpretation. Remember the 8th Article of Faith. Translation i.e. Interpretation IS able to be done accurately, and remember how it's done? Through True servants of the Lord. Further, you still ignore the fact that some half of the NT at least are not interpretations but are the mind of the Lord and God and his servants, through letters etc.
@TheBackyardProfessor cont.... "Everything" thus IS NOT "interpretation"..... Not that mortals can't interpret, not that even True Servant's can't interpret, but the Truth DOES come true, and God's purposes DO occur. That is not interpretation, that is truth. Again, the majority of the Bible is not interpreted simply because most was compiled and officially written later. Even more so... Mormonism is not just another interpretation. It IS God's Kingdom AND Truths on the earth for our day.
Thus there was such a thing as true doctrine even then. While the Churches of the Church were not unified like we are today in the Church namely because of the times, and Christ was a little more "lenient" than other Christians are concerning other believers not with the Church (Mark 9 & Luke 9), it is simply false to say the true doctrine wasn't important then. The Apostles had firm words about false doctrine and what the true doctrine was, and they warned and admonished the Church for such.
You have got to be kidding man. You really think we are united in Mormonism today?! There are over 50 splinter groups existing right now Lee. Come on man, at least try to be a little realistic. Your fundamentalism betrays you.
@TheBackyardProfessor Kerry, I do not deny there are differences & other believers. I was contesting against your point that there "was not/is not" a true authority, absolute truth etc. to doctrine etc. One of the main themes of the New Testament is to both teach correct doctrine, & to correct false doctrine with true doctrine, & those doing it were those in the Authority to do so. The existence of human fallibility does not mean the whole truth wasn't/isn't out there.
@TheBackyardProfessor I'm talking about the fundamental teachings and truth, not all truth in creation Kerry.... get with the program. Fundamental teachings and truths of God have often been known by His People, just as His People today know the fullness in His Latter-day Church. You know what I'm talking about Kerry. The problem is is you are contending against that idea in these videos, throwing EVERYONE under the bus. That's both false and wrong.
Since you obviously are speaking from the complete dark, I assure you it's no offense to me......you obviously have no idea about the scholarship of Dunn. Read him first, then come back and talk when you understand. There is no point in even trying to talk with someone who has his mind made up in complete ignorance of the ideas I have presented from Dunn.
@TheBackyardProfessor Kerry.... spare me the anti-mormon contempt. I've read plenty of works to know the subject matter you are speaking of. Dunn isn't the first to go down this road.
@TheBackyardProfessor Stop putting words into my mouth acting like the an anti-mormon. Never said I wouldn't read Dunn. I have a brain Kerry. I've watched your 3 videos. I hear what you say, I know the arguments already Kerry. There are 1,000's of scholars out there, this is not "new" subject matter. I don't have to read Dunn before commenting on your claims. I know them already, I already know how they are flawed & over presumptive. Get over yourself will you? Me close-minded please...
Thank you for demonstrating my point, you already know what Dunn means and says (you don't, but don't let that stop you living in your fantasy), and therefore don't have to read him....... I am going to continue studying the history of the Bible and Early Christianity. I am enjoying finally learning something about it that is more realistically situated with the evidence in the Bible than I have ever known before. Happy wishes in your learning as well.
@TheBackyardProfessor You are an ignorant elitist Kerry. Never said I wouldn't read him, but you've given your views from the material, & I'm already familiar with the material, thus I'm perfectly allowed to comment. YOUR "fantasy" of me being unwilling to read things is your own immoral anti-mormon liberal elitist mindset. You talk like an anti-mormon Kerry. You are not in the right here. You are a liar, because you intentionally misrepresent me, & then attempt to belittle your strawman.
Thanks for proving my point Lee. Label me liberal elitist anti-Mormon - BWAHAHAHAHA! God if the irony wasn't so thick this would be hilarious....... oh and don't forget atheist. Crimany, why not throw socialist pinko in there as well? Label me, and then you have ALL the refutations handy right at your hand to throw at me and thus never learn the truth.
So let me get this right.....I make a video sharing ideas on the Gospels, you come along and say how wrong I am (and even try to tell me what I know), call me ignorant, eleitist, liberal, anti-Mormon, and even claim the information I am sharing is the atheist argument, and ***I*** and the one who is elitist?!? Got it!
@TheBackyardProfessor cont... Your argument is like the argument of the Atheist that simply because creation story's existed before the Biblical and other related texts story was written down, that that means that the Biblical etc. story is actually false. This is a false assumption. The story existing & changing per the culture doesn't make the story false, it makes the story actually more true, because the story clearly existed and was known long before, & parts were changed etc. over time.
The Apostles could not even agree with themselves what constituted true doctrine. That is obvious form the New Testament itself, as Dunn so proper has pointed out. There is no unity in the earliest of Christianity, anymore than there is right now. It may not even be a necessity to have unity in the first place. That might be a misplaced ideology....
@TheBackyardProfessor I'm well away that the Apostles of the past and even today still disagree on things..... but ultimately they DO come to a conformatory of the truth on the subject, and they did so in Christ's time. Peter WAS the head Apostle and did have the final say. Johns Revelation was not "made up" by some later interpreter. Most of the letters of the Apostles to the different branches of the Church were not "made up" later..... You are going to far.
@TheBackyardProfessor No one is stating that because of human failing that there was total unity in all of Christianity itself. But your claim that there was no such thing as truth, that it couldn't be found with the Authorized servants, simply because people had other views etc. is completely false. Are you saying there is no unity in the LDS Church? There was less unity back then because of the times, but we have it today, there was some then also. Humanity doesn't make non-existent truth.
Are you saying each and every Mormon thinks alike? I am saying there isn't unity in Mormonism because I KNOW there isn't. What about Meldrum's Geography of the Book of Mormon compared to the works of John Sorenson? What of the arguments of whether God is open to learning or not? What of the discussions of who and where the lost ten tribes are? What about Priesthood to women? involvement in political issues of our day, e.g. gays, marriages among gays, etc.? Equal rights?
@TheBackyardProfessor Where the BOM takes place is not basic doctrine truth and principle..... Do you even know how to read? I was clear in my words that I was speaking of the 'basics'. Obviously there are going to be exceptions, I wasn't speaking of that, and obviously of things that haven't been revealed there are going to be also differences of opinion. Doesn't change the fact that we have the truth today, and it existed yesterday also, just not as consistently.
Haven't read the book yet to know how far Dunn takes things, but according to your statement Kerry that there were many interpretations and no actual "true doctrine", you are correct that there were many interpretations but false that there was no true doctrine. Many of the letters of the Apostles in the different Churches were in specific response to the false doctrines, wolves in sheep's clothing etc. that were being promoted within said Churches, and thus they are correcting the record.
To a backyard professor who has an interest in studying mathematics, biblical scholarship, and chess - I have no doubt whatever you choose to study would lead you to being a richer person which you can share with us. Bible studies in America DO NOT lead general laity to such conclusions. It is an insipid poison that demands mental, moral, and sexual submission.(con't)
@Water4Jeremiah (con't)So that's why the atheist you mentioned at 23:55 simply thinks it's better to end all bible studies than allowing children to be taught that ONE way is the correct way. If all churches were so magnanimous as to teach buddhist, islamic, jewish, & hindu philosophies side by side with their own then their laity may realize how silly their own dogma is and lead them to realizing no gods exist(i.e., atheism: which is the BEST template of understanding reality).
Your assumption is that all these religions teach that God doesn't exist...... there are other equally important and good interpretations than this nihilistic view.
Jesus never existed. The stories in the first four books of the modern New Testament.are clearly stories. People don't walk on water. People don't raise from the dead. If any idiot can make up stories like that, then it's easy to realize Jesus was made up too.
That's why the rest of the books all try to fill in the gaps that Jesus left. Faith without works, Works without faiths, fruits of spirit, etc.
10:00 Phew. For a moment there I didn't know if you were an actual believer.
Jesus never existed is one interpretation, but not the most likely one. Now as to who he was, and what he said and did, there is plenty of room for various views, but one thing Dunn demonstrates rather well is that this Jesus, whoever he was and is, he made a fundamental impact on these people, so lasting and poignant that it could not be ignored. Our interpretations of him may vary, but this is not proof that he never existed.
@TheBackyardProfessor Jesus Christ isn't like Abraham Lincoln or Socrates because neither of the latter claimed divinity. I think you just want to believe that it might be real because it gives you a sense of comfort since some of Jesus' teachings (written by the priestly class of the time) just happen to be humanistic and appeal to human common sense.
ian durant,ceaser and christ, if you have not read it.
also the grecco roman context of the time, is way to much overlooked,(the philosopical context),i see modern relgions as hijacking ancient philosophy to justify there own ignorance.church never did like people thinking outside the box,so easy to label them as evil,satan etc etc.
Truth is....Nothing is as it appears, it is as you Imagine it. God is alpha, and omega, Jachin, Boaz, Duality. Ye have become as Gods, knowing the difference between Good, and evil. Knowledge gives us Judgement....Judgement makes you a believe you are a God,,,In creation God said everything was Good....Ego is the Judge....False idols...are big fat egos. Iam the way (love), truth(love) and the Life(love) no one comes to the father except thru me(love) Ego love of self (antichrist).
ego of oneself is not anti-Christ, but it can become that if ego proclaims that ***I*** am the ONLY reality, then you might have a point. But Jesus did properly, I think, add that not only love of God and enemy and neighbor was essentially, but ALSO love of self. ALL mankind (and womankind) are made in God's image (an interesting metaphor, or reality?) and hence ALL are important to God. I believe, like the Kabbalah teaches, that one must have a balance of self and other.
@TheBackyardProfessor This is why Jesus taught washing of the feet to destroy the ego, to gain balance. Ego is what throws an soul out of balance... the would be the 5 pointed star. balance and out of balance, out of balance is fallen.. look at a star as a person standing... tilted it looks like the individual is falling. Father gave us Imagiantion...Genesis 6:5. We use it daily... If you think(imagine) a sin you have commited it in your heart. We imagine everything before it happens.
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jamesviago 1 month ago
Very interesting and I agree with you completely. The only caveat as I see it would be the interpretation authority a prophet would have. The most important elements to the gospel can be understood with confidence when the council comes from those having the authority to interpret God's council. As stated in Eph 4, doctrines are meant to be kept in check through the proper authority of the prophets and apostles. Something most people deny. What do you think?
jmhatutube 3 months ago
The diverse views and interpretations in early Christianity are an immensely fascinating topic, for me, too. And also my access point are the books of Bart Ehrman. So, I guess, I should put Dunn on my reading list. Thanks, Kerry!
Troul478 3 months ago
@Troul478
Yes, there are several very interesting and informed New Testament scholars who deal with all sorts of issues in the scriptures that most refuse to even acknowledge exist. Ehrman is one, as is Mark S. Smith, Margaret Barker, Robert Eisenman, E. P. Sanders, James Sanders and hosts of others.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
Going back to your chess videos Kerry.We have the desire to become better in chess in common.No interpretations there"grin".I guess you could interpret a move as being good or bad.It's my interpretation that all chess software is evil!!!
pocatellodave 3 months ago
@pocatellodave
LOL! I HOPE all chess software isn't bad! I've invested in some of it ya know.....woo hoo! I also will keep producing my Chess vids also, promise!
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
Kerry I derive no fun or pleasure out of informing you about facts,not interpretations.I've always wondered how so many people could be deceived by one man,but it has happened in the past,and will continue in the future.
I will give you credit for seeking answers and even going against the grain with your Mormon constituents.That could get you in a lot of trouble if the right Mormon hears some of these interpretations you have.The head of the LDS church is a prophet the minute he takes over,Bah!
pocatellodave 3 months ago
@pocatellodave
Your facts are as much interpretation as mine are Dave....honest......
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor Thanks to cyberherbalist. He reminded us of an important "truth" Kerry, not simply an interpretation.
Christ said there would be false prophets, as such there must be True Prophets, as such True Prophets have the Truth, not simply "interpretation" Kerry. There was a True Church then, and there is now. It was less perfect then, but it certainly existed. This all truth is relative/interpretation simply because everyone believes differently is not Truth, it is Atheist.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
And cyberherbalist also showed how he interprets my videos as having no problems. But you interpret them as having problems. So thank you for pointing out that cyberherbalist is correct as well, it is all interpretation.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@pocatellodave That's interesting how you don't seem to understand the LDS church. The "right Mormon"? Which one? Someone who will report him to the leadership? Oh, come on. We are not so hide-bound as you seem to think. And I've listened to this video closely enough to wonder what on earth you think TBP is talking about here that would be so horrifying to the Church. Nothing he has said is at all problematic.
cyberherbalist 3 months ago
@cyberherbalist
Thanks. I honestly did not think I said anything against Mormonism..... truly..... So far as I am aware, in over 1,000 videos there should be nothing that would horrify anyone in Mormonism. I am loving learning things of various subjects, and sharing them..... exploring my own journey of faith as it were.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
Jesus said there will be many false prophets and they will deceive many.Joseph Smith was a false prophet.Deuteronomy chapter 18,verse 20 pretty much covers false prophets.Kerry you said you are a Free Mason.I maintain Joseph Smith brought a lot of the Free Mason's rituals into the only true church!Most Mormons aren't even aware of this fact.
Most Biblical scholars consider the Mormon church a cult!So I consider the source that is trying to attack the NT as unreliable.
pocatellodave 3 months ago
@pocatellodave
I understand that is all your interpretation, though I differ in my understanding of yours. Kinda fun isn't it?! GRIN!
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@pocatellodave That Christ said there would be false prophets presupposes that there would be true prophets as well. But what has traditional Christianity had for true prophets? The last I am aware of was Agabus, nearly 2,000 years ago. Jesus never said there would be no more prophets at all. Mohammed was the author of that notion. Just saying.
cyberherbalist 3 months ago
No literal person can escape interpretation. That's just a fact. Keep up the good work BYP.
weareall101 3 months ago
you are the man.
MasonicBooks 3 months ago
I should clarify that I am Mormon and wasn't looking to argue about anything. just looking for an honest response.
clearpathtofollw 3 months ago 2
@clearpathtofollw
An honest response would be that the truth in Mormonism is fine.....for me, for Lee, and other Mormons. Others don't find it right for them, their experience and interpretations are not ours.....
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
again, Im only half way through this first video. You state that all organized relgions dumb things down. I don't disagree with this statement, but it leads to me ask you reguarding your own religion. Is Mormonism another watered down version of Truth? What does Mormonism offer someone like yourself who seems open to finding truths in all religions?
clearpathtofollw 3 months ago
@clearpathtofollw As you note, that is exactly what he believes, and it's a problem. Further, finding truth in all religions and things is LDS Theology, but you don't do it to such a degree to destroy the truth, to say things as he has that "Sunday School" Mormonism is fantasy's not the truth etc. He simply goes to far into atheistic judgments of religious history. His arguments are not new, and they've been well debunked, yet he acts like they are some great wonderful truth.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
I'm only half way through this first video but I have to ask you Mr. Shirts if you feel the same way about the Book of Mormon when you say that the Bible is "interpreted truth". Is the BOM also interpreted Truth? Does truth as absolutism exist anywhere in religion? Is absolute doctorine necessary? Is the Book of Mormon simply LDS interpretation of Truth?
clearpathtofollw 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
@TheBackyardProfessor
Hey :) Aren't we supposed to be on the same side? Isn't it terribly ironic to have contention over Jesus? Discussion and difference is all good but I think the way it is being discussed would not please Jesus.
onhech 3 months ago
@onhech
We aren't arguing about Jesus, we are arguing about Lees incredibly incorrect understanding of what I am saying about the Gospels and their actual nature and reality. Lee loves to stick with an ideology that has very little basis in fact, I like to study the history and actual truth and knowledge about them. Lee calls that the atheist argument which is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor My judgment is based in fact also..... Just like I find Mormon thought to be superior to Christian thought, I consider what I've studied superior to what you now embrace, things I've also studied. It IS a common Atheist ideology, you can cry about it all you want, that it's not, but I've studied also, I know what is interpretation, and what isn't, your "actual truth" is not actual truth, it's the perversion of it. Wolfs in sheep's clothing is still just that.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
Yes, it is you after all who is the elitist Lee......thanks for pointing that out....
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
Your judgement being based on fact is your interpretation.......
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@31'ish minutes, so well said, on doctrine making enemies, but our loving our enemies.
4trahasis 3 months ago
I ask God to to help me understand the Bible,and he is true to his word,giving me help when something is hard for me to understand.It isn't my place to pass judgement on people who attempt to interpret the Bible in there own way.I could add many negative things to this blog,but I will not.Man has been messing up a very simple thing for a long time.
Kerry I enjoy your chess lessons,and I hope I can improve via your hard work.
pocatellodave 3 months ago
Thanks
ldsdon1 3 months ago
The New Testament is not just made up stories, the scholars I am using have demonstrated that what we have in the New Testament documents is INTERPRETED information about traditions told about Jesus. These traditions were interpreted 40-70 years after Jesus' death, and each Gospel gives it's own agenda and twist on that interpretation. Matthew is the most Jewish, etc.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
Jesus was real,and he didn't make any mistakes.He was sinless,and he done his Fathers will.The only way to the Father is through the Son.All the education in the world isn't going to change that fact.Revelation chapter 22 verses 18-19 covers the subject of adding to or taking away from the Bible very nicely.
pocatellodave 3 months ago
@pocatellodave
Yes, that is an interpretation of Jesus, to be sure, but not the singular orthodox interpretation of the earliest Christians, because there wasn't one. Dunn is POWERFUL on the evidence from the New Testament itself on this. And, your interpretation of the meaning of that verse in Revelation is not about the entire Bible, but about John's revelation the Apocalypse alone.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
What an awesome insight that the early christians did not have the new testament and that these characters were actually creating the scripture as they went, being there very lives. Kinda helps with the understanding of the Mormon church today, You just strengthened my testamony, thank you
ZorroTech88 3 months ago
"Historical reality is always more complex and fascinating than the orthodox of any tradition would like us to believe. The winners rewrite history, and the rewrite is almost always a simplification. Simplifications are helpful to give us an initial grasp, but we should never content ourselves with them."--David Noel Freedman
wayman29 3 months ago
Awesome! BYP back in the bible! Love it!
wayman29 3 months ago
Also your comment about there was "no original way" or true way to interpret scripture is also false. There is true interpretation. One reason I know this for sure is because I spent years in many religions, embracing no interpretation at all, and reading the Bible and judging for myself, and seeing for myself that no religion fit the book in full or accurately. Only when I came upon mormonism, did a religion in full and accurately fit the book. There is absolute truth.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
James Dunn is who I am studying right now, and his interpretation on the diversities of ideas and thinking in the New Testament ..... I am enjoying learning others' views, and I appreciate you expressing yours Lee.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor Please understand I don't deny "some" of what your saying.... But, applying it to the entire New Testament when maybe around 60% of it doesn't fit that standard, is wrong. No one denies that the early Church wrote some of their own stuff, that a lot is missing, a lot was not put into the Bible, that there are translation issues, etc. No one is denying that many of the recordings worked off of each other, etc., but to say it's ALL just later interpretation, poppycock.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
It is ALL later interpretation, not poppycock......you are discovering what I already did, that I haven't been taught the truth of early Christianity as I ought to have had given to me. There is NO actual Bible scholars (LDS or non LDS) who will claim and be able to demonstrate that the Gospels or Paul's letters are eyewitness accounts of Jesus' earthly life. There are later writings we have as our New Testament, but no documents from Jesus' day. NONE.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor So what.... You're saying that just because we don't have the actual "physical" letter so and so wrote, that we have a copy of it, that it just didn't exist, and it's all made up? That's simply bull Kerry. The early Christians were not THAT unethical. I'm not saying things weren't done here or there, but you are going to far. You're actually saying that the entire new testament is made up storys??? That the story's weren't scribal recordings, etc.? You go to far.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
You are putting our modern thinking onto the ancients, a serious no no in methodology. Yes, the Gospels are religious propaganda, get over it. That is not to say their faith is false. But their history is definitely not what really happened. Crimany man, you need to get with the program and read broader. Take a clue form Joseph Smith or Hugh Nibley or someone already man. They showed us the way how to get an understanding.....
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor Kerry, don't put your assumptions of me onto me.... I don't put any modern thinking at all in the matter. I've already told you that "some" of what you are saying is valid, but you take things way too far. The Gospels are religious propaganda, the history is not what happened etc. etc.??? Do you even hear yourself? You have taken learning to the hilt and then think you are wise.... If they were made up they sure did a poor editing job.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
As I say, I sincerely suggest you read Dunn, "Unity and Diversity in the New Testament." I have learned more of Early Christianity in this book and his book called "The Partings of the Ways," than I have learned in 50 years in Mormonism. Our church does NOT teach us about the history of Christianity or the nature of the New Testament. It teaches doctrine, not history, without realizing apparently, that the two often effect each other. It is not a threat to learn the real history.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
Did you EVER hear me say something so silly as the entire New Testament is just made up stories? Crimany man is your hearing that bad?
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
Even Mormonism does NOT declare it has the absolute truth and final say so...... there is MUCH that we do not know and cannot know in this life, hence the injunction to seek in the best books of knowledge. One cannot learn the ABSOLUTE truth here and now in mortality.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor Of course Mormonism claims to have the absolute truth, as so far revealed, the important stuff God want's us to know. What planet are you on? No one is questioning that there are other truths out there, that we don't have everything that's ever existed. But, that's not what you've been saying. You're saying we're all in the same muck, and that's simply false. The Church not while being entirely free from human failings most certainly DOES stand apart, and is different.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
Also, this idea that all the New Testament was simply written much later is also ridiculous. Many of the letters of the Apostles were actual letters to the Churches, by the individuals in question. Of course, most likely all the Gospels were written by scribes, and some were compiled later, but most were not at all simply later "interpretations". The Revelation of John was not an interpretation, etc. etc. Who-evers making these arguments are painting with too broad a brush.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
The scholarship on the later writing of the Gospels is truly quite solid, not ridiculous. My advice is widen your reading range and see the facts. There are literally *no eye witness* documents written in Jesus' day, during his lifetime on or about his life. All of them are later. This is where the church has failed us in accurate knowledge of history. It's incorrect, and the scholars are right.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor Kerry..... simply because you are willing to believe every new claim some new scholar makes doesn't make that claim true. Again, are you actually saying that various Apostles "did not" write various letters to the Churches, many of which still exist some not in the Bible? Are you saying Revelations was not written by John? (of course I'm speaking of scribes etc., not necessarily the men themselves)
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
Except for a few brief letters of Paul (not the forgeries in the NT attributed to him but the letters themselves), yes I am saying that the writings we know by the names of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are NOT authored by them in Jesus' day, but are much later written by someone else in a later time looking back onto the life of Christ......that has been absolutely fundamentally SOLIDLY established.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor That is simply false Kerry.... Of course we know that those "particular" Gospel were not authored by them themselves, but that's NOT what you have been saying. Those Gospels are scribal recordings and eyewitness testimony that was later compiled and written down. We've always known the 4 Gospels to not be written by them. That's why they are called the "Gospels of so and so". You've been condemning the entire New Testament, not just parts were know had later recording.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
Your understanding of what I have said is simply wrongheaded. I am not condemning anything, I am learning the truth about the scriptures. To say I condemn anything is simply silly. I am studying history, not doctrine. There is a vast difference.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor Well, your history is wrong when you label the entire New Testament as simply a later creation/interpretation.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
No, it's not. It's the reality you refuse to understand and face. Your are in cognitive dissonance. I understand the actual and real history far better than I used to, and I will admit, it darn sure isn't what I have been taught in Sunday School, that's for sure!
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor cont.... I don't deny your claim that SOME of the New Testament was compiled/written much later, that's been long known, but also much of it was not. You are making sweeping claims in these videos that are entirely false, that have well documented backing against. Further, your wave of the hand judgment/condemnation against those who call some scholared works liberal, atheist, etc. is wrong. Not always, but often it's for good reason, because they DO warp the truth.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
EVERYONE warps the truth Lee......that is precisely THE point of the videos. There is no objective truth out there, it is ALL filtered thrugh human minds.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor That is simply not true Kerry..... There is the truth that someone CAN have, and then there is the truth that is warped. It's simply false that all things are warped from their intent simply because they go through the human mind. We all know that the human mind can error, but that's far different from your claim. Just because "some" humans error, doesn't mean all do. Again, you go too far.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
Oh? So there are some humans here on earth who are infallible? Please do name one........ just because you cannot handle the truth doesn't mean others of us can't either.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor Wow Kerry..... It's so funny how you start acting like an anti-mormon. You should know very well what I'm talking about. I.E. Despite the Church containing fallible humans, the infallible truths of God ARE contained there-in. If you no longer believe these things as I years ago warned you that you were developing false ideas, then fine.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
And you act like a typical Mormon in labeling anything that scares you to death because it is different than what you think you know as truth and reality. So I am now acting like an anti-Mormon by learning from the best books of early Christian history? Forgive me but......BWAHAHAHAHA! That is hilarious! Nibley also would have to wear that label then, and the entire Neal A. Maxwell Institute roster of wonderful LDS scholars.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor I'm only contending against YOUR arguments, not LDS scholars. You state that the entire New Testament is simply later "interpretation". That is false. Many of the books were in fact written by the individuals in question, or their scribes, what wasn't was a compilation of scribes works, notes & testimony. I've never contended that there isn't "some" interpretation in the New Testament, I'm contending against your claim. Your claim is an old atheist anti-religion claim.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
An old atheist argument - HOWLING LAUGHTER!!!!!!!!!!! You be one funny man Lee............. it scares you to learn something other than what you learn in Sunday school, that's why you feel the need to mischaracterize things as either atheist or anti-Mormon, that way you feel safe in your little coccoon of fluffy understanding. Yer welcome to it, as for me, I shall continue learning out of the best books as I have always done.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor You know Kerry.... You're acting just like an elitist arrogant anti-mormon and liberal right now. Simply because you've read Dunn you're somehow the know it all, and if anyone disagrees with you, then they aren't as "learned" as you, that we are just comfortable little Sunday school morons, and have never learned anything else. You don't know me Kerry, but YOU are for the world to see. That's my opinion of your extreme and thus false views. But enjoy your elitism.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
I am presenting new ideas that I have learned from Dunn, and YOU are the one coming on here claiming its the atheist argument, wrong headed, and that you have the truth, you alone, and you haven't even read Dunn yet....... But, I am the one who is now acting like a liberal (oh shame!), atheistic anti-Mormon??? I love how because you obviously haven't got a clue about the true nature of the Bible, you then call me names, label the information I share incorrectly, and I'm the bad guy
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor Kerry.... I only judge what you say. You throw out common anti-mormon ad hom's and cop-outs, and elitist judgments of if I only read what you read, then I wouldn't be stupid, you judge things like an atheist, etc. etc. Again, Dunn isn't the first to come out with such arguments, and your judgment acting like he is and it's all something wonderful and new just tells me you're the one pre-judging me. I'm giving you my judgment of your comments, and you can't handle it.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
I haven't thrown out any anti-Mormon ad homs...... I am simply stating facts. Elitist judgments? I am simply stating the way things are.Judge things like an atheist?!? That is just stupid on your part Lee. I have never once said Dunn was the first, but he says it far better than most I have read, and makes terrific sense of it all in ways that others have missed. Sorry my excitement causes you to miss completely what I am doing. Oh well...
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor Kerry, your judgments of me are not facts, they are common tactics used by those I've stated. As to some of your conclusions, or Dunns, they are simply false, and common atheist judgments, which as I've already said, take some truth too far. The majority of the New Testament simply is not "interpretation". The Letter's alone and Johns Revelation and more all equaling at least some half of the New Testament clearly debunks your/Dunns claims. Those are facts also.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
Like I said, and you continue to prove, until you read Dunn, you simply cannot....*cannot* understand his idea of the Gospels, letters, epistles, etc. ALL being interpretations. EVERYTHING written is interpretation.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor Kerry, I do actually understand the "base" idea you are trying to say, that because everything goes through a mortal in your mind it becomes interpretation. The problem & thing that you are forgetting, is that when God's Will and True Servants are in the mix, it IS NOT interpretation any longer. It is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH and Will of God.... His Doctrines, His Truths.... NOT mans truths, not man's interpretations. There are the doctrines of men, and the doctrines of God.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
No it is not. It is always interpreted through human minds. Can you refute that? Show me anything that is not interpreted in this life..... go ahead try and show me.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor my interpretation and my truth, is that I will tell everyone that does not agree with me, that they will just burn in hell.
No, just kidding :)
joke
TheSkepticChristian 3 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
LOL!
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor The fact that everything is interpreted doesn't mean that everything is relative and/or false interpretation. There is true interpretation. Remember the 8th Article of Faith. Translation i.e. Interpretation IS able to be done accurately, and remember how it's done? Through True servants of the Lord. Further, you still ignore the fact that some half of the NT at least are not interpretations but are the mind of the Lord and God and his servants, through letters etc.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor cont.... "Everything" thus IS NOT "interpretation"..... Not that mortals can't interpret, not that even True Servant's can't interpret, but the Truth DOES come true, and God's purposes DO occur. That is not interpretation, that is truth. Again, the majority of the Bible is not interpreted simply because most was compiled and officially written later. Even more so... Mormonism is not just another interpretation. It IS God's Kingdom AND Truths on the earth for our day.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
That is your interpretation of things, yes..... others interpret it differently. Isn't that interesting that it really IS all interpreted?
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
Thus there was such a thing as true doctrine even then. While the Churches of the Church were not unified like we are today in the Church namely because of the times, and Christ was a little more "lenient" than other Christians are concerning other believers not with the Church (Mark 9 & Luke 9), it is simply false to say the true doctrine wasn't important then. The Apostles had firm words about false doctrine and what the true doctrine was, and they warned and admonished the Church for such.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
You have got to be kidding man. You really think we are united in Mormonism today?! There are over 50 splinter groups existing right now Lee. Come on man, at least try to be a little realistic. Your fundamentalism betrays you.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor Kerry, I do not deny there are differences & other believers. I was contesting against your point that there "was not/is not" a true authority, absolute truth etc. to doctrine etc. One of the main themes of the New Testament is to both teach correct doctrine, & to correct false doctrine with true doctrine, & those doing it were those in the Authority to do so. The existence of human fallibility does not mean the whole truth wasn't/isn't out there.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
God has NEVER given the whole truth Lee. For crying out loud man, I seriously suggest you broaden your reading........
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor I'm talking about the fundamental teachings and truth, not all truth in creation Kerry.... get with the program. Fundamental teachings and truths of God have often been known by His People, just as His People today know the fullness in His Latter-day Church. You know what I'm talking about Kerry. The problem is is you are contending against that idea in these videos, throwing EVERYONE under the bus. That's both false and wrong.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
Since you obviously are speaking from the complete dark, I assure you it's no offense to me......you obviously have no idea about the scholarship of Dunn. Read him first, then come back and talk when you understand. There is no point in even trying to talk with someone who has his mind made up in complete ignorance of the ideas I have presented from Dunn.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor Kerry.... spare me the anti-mormon contempt. I've read plenty of works to know the subject matter you are speaking of. Dunn isn't the first to go down this road.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
In other words, you won't read Dunn because you already know what he is all about? How typically closed minded of you.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor Stop putting words into my mouth acting like the an anti-mormon. Never said I wouldn't read Dunn. I have a brain Kerry. I've watched your 3 videos. I hear what you say, I know the arguments already Kerry. There are 1,000's of scholars out there, this is not "new" subject matter. I don't have to read Dunn before commenting on your claims. I know them already, I already know how they are flawed & over presumptive. Get over yourself will you? Me close-minded please...
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
Thank you for demonstrating my point, you already know what Dunn means and says (you don't, but don't let that stop you living in your fantasy), and therefore don't have to read him....... I am going to continue studying the history of the Bible and Early Christianity. I am enjoying finally learning something about it that is more realistically situated with the evidence in the Bible than I have ever known before. Happy wishes in your learning as well.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor You are an ignorant elitist Kerry. Never said I wouldn't read him, but you've given your views from the material, & I'm already familiar with the material, thus I'm perfectly allowed to comment. YOUR "fantasy" of me being unwilling to read things is your own immoral anti-mormon liberal elitist mindset. You talk like an anti-mormon Kerry. You are not in the right here. You are a liar, because you intentionally misrepresent me, & then attempt to belittle your strawman.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
Thanks for proving my point Lee. Label me liberal elitist anti-Mormon - BWAHAHAHAHA! God if the irony wasn't so thick this would be hilarious....... oh and don't forget atheist. Crimany, why not throw socialist pinko in there as well? Label me, and then you have ALL the refutations handy right at your hand to throw at me and thus never learn the truth.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
So let me get this right.....I make a video sharing ideas on the Gospels, you come along and say how wrong I am (and even try to tell me what I know), call me ignorant, eleitist, liberal, anti-Mormon, and even claim the information I am sharing is the atheist argument, and ***I*** and the one who is elitist?!? Got it!
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor cont... Your argument is like the argument of the Atheist that simply because creation story's existed before the Biblical and other related texts story was written down, that that means that the Biblical etc. story is actually false. This is a false assumption. The story existing & changing per the culture doesn't make the story false, it makes the story actually more true, because the story clearly existed and was known long before, & parts were changed etc. over time.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
Read Dunn.......for crying out loud already man, educate yourself a little bit more.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
The Apostles could not even agree with themselves what constituted true doctrine. That is obvious form the New Testament itself, as Dunn so proper has pointed out. There is no unity in the earliest of Christianity, anymore than there is right now. It may not even be a necessity to have unity in the first place. That might be a misplaced ideology....
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor I'm well away that the Apostles of the past and even today still disagree on things..... but ultimately they DO come to a conformatory of the truth on the subject, and they did so in Christ's time. Peter WAS the head Apostle and did have the final say. Johns Revelation was not "made up" by some later interpreter. Most of the letters of the Apostles to the different branches of the Church were not "made up" later..... You are going to far.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor No one is stating that because of human failing that there was total unity in all of Christianity itself. But your claim that there was no such thing as truth, that it couldn't be found with the Authorized servants, simply because people had other views etc. is completely false. Are you saying there is no unity in the LDS Church? There was less unity back then because of the times, but we have it today, there was some then also. Humanity doesn't make non-existent truth.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
@leeuniverse
Are you saying each and every Mormon thinks alike? I am saying there isn't unity in Mormonism because I KNOW there isn't. What about Meldrum's Geography of the Book of Mormon compared to the works of John Sorenson? What of the arguments of whether God is open to learning or not? What of the discussions of who and where the lost ten tribes are? What about Priesthood to women? involvement in political issues of our day, e.g. gays, marriages among gays, etc.? Equal rights?
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor Where the BOM takes place is not basic doctrine truth and principle..... Do you even know how to read? I was clear in my words that I was speaking of the 'basics'. Obviously there are going to be exceptions, I wasn't speaking of that, and obviously of things that haven't been revealed there are going to be also differences of opinion. Doesn't change the fact that we have the truth today, and it existed yesterday also, just not as consistently.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
Haven't read the book yet to know how far Dunn takes things, but according to your statement Kerry that there were many interpretations and no actual "true doctrine", you are correct that there were many interpretations but false that there was no true doctrine. Many of the letters of the Apostles in the different Churches were in specific response to the false doctrines, wolves in sheep's clothing etc. that were being promoted within said Churches, and thus they are correcting the record.
leeuniverse 3 months ago
To a backyard professor who has an interest in studying mathematics, biblical scholarship, and chess - I have no doubt whatever you choose to study would lead you to being a richer person which you can share with us. Bible studies in America DO NOT lead general laity to such conclusions. It is an insipid poison that demands mental, moral, and sexual submission.(con't)
Water4Jeremiah 3 months ago
@Water4Jeremiah (con't)So that's why the atheist you mentioned at 23:55 simply thinks it's better to end all bible studies than allowing children to be taught that ONE way is the correct way. If all churches were so magnanimous as to teach buddhist, islamic, jewish, & hindu philosophies side by side with their own then their laity may realize how silly their own dogma is and lead them to realizing no gods exist(i.e., atheism: which is the BEST template of understanding reality).
Water4Jeremiah 3 months ago
@Water4Jeremiah
Your assumption is that all these religions teach that God doesn't exist...... there are other equally important and good interpretations than this nihilistic view.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
Jesus never existed. The stories in the first four books of the modern New Testament.are clearly stories. People don't walk on water. People don't raise from the dead. If any idiot can make up stories like that, then it's easy to realize Jesus was made up too.
That's why the rest of the books all try to fill in the gaps that Jesus left. Faith without works, Works without faiths, fruits of spirit, etc.
10:00 Phew. For a moment there I didn't know if you were an actual believer.
Water4Jeremiah 3 months ago
@Water4Jeremiah
Jesus never existed is one interpretation, but not the most likely one. Now as to who he was, and what he said and did, there is plenty of room for various views, but one thing Dunn demonstrates rather well is that this Jesus, whoever he was and is, he made a fundamental impact on these people, so lasting and poignant that it could not be ignored. Our interpretations of him may vary, but this is not proof that he never existed.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor Jesus Christ isn't like Abraham Lincoln or Socrates because neither of the latter claimed divinity. I think you just want to believe that it might be real because it gives you a sense of comfort since some of Jesus' teachings (written by the priestly class of the time) just happen to be humanistic and appeal to human common sense.
Water4Jeremiah 3 months ago
ian durant,ceaser and christ, if you have not read it.
also the grecco roman context of the time, is way to much overlooked,(the philosopical context),i see modern relgions as hijacking ancient philosophy to justify there own ignorance.church never did like people thinking outside the box,so easy to label them as evil,satan etc etc.
trying to learn the whole from a part=confusion
Gracchi 3 months ago
@Gracchi
Trying to learn the whole from the part can lead to many problems as you note, but EACH ONE ***IS*** a part of the whole, and thus, is important.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
looking forward to more vids on this, very intresting indeed
HaXaKgamer 3 months ago
@HaXaKgamer
I have part 2 uploading right now......
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor great :D
HaXaKgamer 3 months ago
Truth is....Nothing is as it appears, it is as you Imagine it. God is alpha, and omega, Jachin, Boaz, Duality. Ye have become as Gods, knowing the difference between Good, and evil. Knowledge gives us Judgement....Judgement makes you a believe you are a God,,,In creation God said everything was Good....Ego is the Judge....False idols...are big fat egos. Iam the way (love), truth(love) and the Life(love) no one comes to the father except thru me(love) Ego love of self (antichrist).
taxmaxtony 3 months ago
@taxmaxtony
ego of oneself is not anti-Christ, but it can become that if ego proclaims that ***I*** am the ONLY reality, then you might have a point. But Jesus did properly, I think, add that not only love of God and enemy and neighbor was essentially, but ALSO love of self. ALL mankind (and womankind) are made in God's image (an interesting metaphor, or reality?) and hence ALL are important to God. I believe, like the Kabbalah teaches, that one must have a balance of self and other.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor This is why Jesus taught washing of the feet to destroy the ego, to gain balance. Ego is what throws an soul out of balance... the would be the 5 pointed star. balance and out of balance, out of balance is fallen.. look at a star as a person standing... tilted it looks like the individual is falling. Father gave us Imagiantion...Genesis 6:5. We use it daily... If you think(imagine) a sin you have commited it in your heart. We imagine everything before it happens.
taxmaxtony 3 months ago
Kerry Shirts, I love you!
HandGottesInAllemNeu 3 months ago
Professor so nice to see you back. Thanks
myway43 3 months ago