Determinism vs Free Will (1/2) - The Atheist Experience #616

[Leios9]

It seems to me that even though I'm conciously making choices it would be impossible for me to make any other choice. It's still my choice but the events before that determined my choice.

From my (probably uninformed) view the fact that the act of calculating all future events is impossible due to uncertainty principle ect. is not important. Just because it couldn't ever be done even by something supernatural dosen't mean that the theory is wrong.

Feel free to correct me if I'm missing something

[playgrrrr]

@Leios9 I think that as well, but the two main things to consider is that we a) don't know how consciousness comes about or what it even is, and b) that we have no choice but to operate as if we have genuinely free will, so the question serves no other purpose than to give us headaches and more stuff for science to be working on. :)

[Justanothershell]

I don't think anyone, at this point in time anyway, can claim that either free will* or determinism is the only logical conclusion. We have a lot to learn about ourselves and the world around us. I will stay agnostic as regards to this argument. I strongly feel this question is a big unknown. Time and study my clear things up.

*Depending on your definition.

[PhreakStep]

@Justanothershell

Agree I am saying its neither.

Because actions of other people affect me and vica versa.

The example I like to give in debates like this is food and drinks.

It was not my lifes choice (free will) to eat and drink in order to stay alive it means it was "predestened" but at the same time I have a free will to eat any food that I like.

[iliveon]

the quantum physics argument doesn't count. Because time does not vary. If scientist saw random changes in an atom at 1.01000 seconds. If you brought back time, the scientist would ALWAYS see the random change at 1.01000 seconds. Time indeed has an ORDER to it. Therefore, quantum physics randomness cannot ever conflict with determinism.

[hagenar]

Free will is something everyone wants. Like heaven. The fact that it doesn't exist is too much for many people, even some atheists.

[playgrrrr]

@hagenar It's hard to think about trying to make sense of things when making sense leads you to the conclusion that you can't make sense of things after all, because you do not even exist as an independent intellect. It's as hard to accept as it is to even grasp at all.

[WayOfTheMaster454]

@hagenar --If you do not have free-will, what exactly determines your determinism?

[hagenar]

@WayOfTheMaster454 molecules

[WayOfTheMaster454]

@hagenar --Would a Jury buy that answer in a court of law?

[hagenar]

@WayOfTheMaster454 Don't know. That would strongly depend on their collective dispositions one nanosecond earlier.

[7fairytale7]

@hagenar, Yep, even atheists idealizes. In others words, even atheists have illusions. Free will is, of course, one of them.

[chica0616]

There are a bunch of idiots on youtube, free will is the same thing as decision or choice, you idiots who say that there is no free will are out of touch. Who you are is not based on free will. Homosexuality is based on free will. It is a choice made by either yourself alone or by yourself because of life experiences.

[P0weredByPie]

@chica0616 - why are you excluding sexuality from the definition of "who you are"?

Can you give proof of sexuality as being a choice?

For example, if you identify as heterosexual, would you please demonstrate (video/pix evidence preferred) your choosing to be a different sexuality, such as lesbo?

Also: given that there is a gene for (eg.) male homosexuality, are you positing that your choices can override your genetic makeup? if so, again, please demonstrate how this is possible.

[cohortsgiantcrab]

HAHAHA TERRIBLE SNORESVILLE

[YetAnthony]

Meh, I feel like I have free-will. I think that's all that matters.

[playgrrrr]

@YetAnthony i think so too. not every idea, regardless of how consequential it is, is also a useful one. although it is good to investigate and educate in order to understand things better and avoid misjudgement. :)

[rcguy69]

The central problem is that Free Will is a nonsensical term. No one can help being who they are. If they change it is because of either their environment or because something happens to them internally. They do not initiate change, they react to events in a manner which they believe is choice. If you seriously analyze what people call a 'decision' you'll find that it is also a nonsensical term.

[David1531992]

How is free anything far of random? I'm just asking, if there's no logical explanation the doesn't it make it random...

[crockock2]

free will is the biggest bullshitstory ever told :-/

[darkmiles22]

I said if I send a small electric charge to a certain part of my brain I can sense things, just as if I tasted it on my tongue or felt heat on my palm.

[darkmiles22]

If you choose to act a certain way, it doesn't matter if it could have been predetermined, you still make the choice.

And there are between 9 and 21 senses at last count I heard due to the distinction between nerve cells that detect pressure, heat, and pain instead of "touch" and senses like balance, location of body parts (leading to phantom limb disorder), and in some definitions emotions also qualify as a sense, but obviously there is disagreement in the scientific community on that.

[darkmiles22]

Yes, get me a bone saw to cut through my cranium and an electric probe and I can taste grapes. Get me a lobotomy stick and I'll never feel anger again. Hit my head really hard and I'll get a concussion - a bruise on my brain. Let me get old and develop dementia (water on the brain) or Alzheimer's (shrinking of brain tissue) and I'll act crazy and forget stuff.

[Nate2203]

gawd you are dense, I'm not getting into this, it goes nowhere. I understand where you are coming from, but you have no clue where I'm coming from.

[thegreatestbak]

but when you are born the things around you have been shaped in a certain way...institutions, people, the places etc. So your will will can at best be said to be limited...but if its limited is it really free will? Your choices are constrained and many of the avenues you choose will have been in a way chosen for you depending on where and when you are born!

Compatibilism only works under two set of strict definitions...and its murky here. The only appropriate conclusion is its limited

[darkmiles22]

I think you guys are arguing past each other. Nate is equating thought (I think justly) with the electrochemical pathway activated in your brain when you think that thought. Of course these are very different ways of looking at the same information. It's like when you highlight the text of a Word document and change the font to one with just squares and spaces. It's the same information but in a radically different form that is not readily digested. Same info, different script.

[Nate2203]

I know I'm an asshole, I'm tying to be better about that. I could've been way more of an asshole though, right? :-) I think we should just be done with this now, like you said, it's become pointless.

[Nate2203]

:-) We are going nowhere, lol.  I completely understand what you are saying, but I don't think you understand where I'm coming from whatsoever, and I don't see it happening anytime soon. I assure you that I've read all of your comments wholly. If you cannot understand that a thought is made up of physical electrons, then I guess you will never get it, but if that's the case, then that's how it was supposed to be ;-)

[Nate2203]

Do you percieve that you make choices? You do? There's your proof. I percieve that I make choices too. Whether or not we actually make them is another story. I say this over and over again, electrons are PHYSICAL, you can count them and are a part of PHYSICS. Our thoughts are made up of electrons, therefore they are PHYSICAL. Of course you can't touch a dream, but it is still physical, all brain signals are.

[Nate2203]

So the brain is not physical then? Also, what the fuck exactly are our thoughts then??? If they are not physical, then what are they? Magical non physical things that science cannot possibly explain?(kind of like an invisible sky daddy)

[darkmiles22]

Also you two, life can be predetermined and you can still have free will, the technical reality and the illusion of it. If one's free will is defined as one having the ability to make decisions then it doesn't matter if those decisions can be predicted; the physical entity that is you is still making them even if according to the laws of physics, because those laws of physics are what make you, you. Again, assuming quantum effects are negligible at large scales even over long periods of time.

[Nate2203]

I agree that we could have a free will in that our perception is that we have a free will, BUT it is just a percieved free will and not a true free will...I guess my previous arguement was based on the premise that nothing is physics is truly random, so the motion that started in the big bang just sent everything off in a completely predictible manner(including life). But i don't really know if that is the case. When you think about it though, things can only happen one way.

[Nate2203]

I never said we get to choose, I said we have the PERCEPTION of choice. You are going about this whole arguement with the premise that we have free will, free will is an extraordinary claim. Prove it. Our world is purely physical, free will(whatever that is) is definitely not, what is it then?

[Nate2203]

the thought IS physical. An electron IS physical. A thought is just a bunch of electrons moving in your brain, just like a computer, one or zero, on or not on. What is conciousness then, and how about you prove that it hasn't come to be because of the laws of physics and chemistry? I love how you are asking me for proof when you are the one making the claim FOR something, you're like a christian telling an atheist to disprove god.

[Nate2203]

"You're confusing the atoms that work within our brain with the atoms that create what is around us"

How the fuck are they different?!

[Nate2203]

...of physics(and chemistry), and as far as we know every proton, neuton, and electron still abide by those laws in spite of us being alive. So what other outcome could there be for anything that happens? Me typing this comment to you could have been predicted trillions of years ago(if some one could possibly have that sort of knowledge and technology). How is it "not that simple"? Does life change the fact that we are made up of physical matter bound by the laws of physics and chemistry???

[Nate2203]

You only have the perception that you get to choose what you want to do 5 seconds from now...Electrons are physical(so is everything that we know), so there IS a physical manifestation in our brain, we can even get readings on thoughts, it's not magic like you suggest.

As far as we know, everything is physical, therefore everything is under the laws of physics(gravity, magnetism, mass, inertia, etc.). Therefore, without an entity outside our physical dimension, we are a product...

[Nate2203]

...you must believe that we are some sort of magical beings above the laws of physics(or something outside of our physical dimension intervened aka some sort of god).

[Nate2203]

I don't think you fucking understand. To understand, you have to go back to the bginning of time aka the start of everything(big bang or whatever the cause was). Our universe was put in motion by whatever did it, physics and chemistry are what got us here today, do they not apply to our brains and bodies???? Is our decision process not electrical signals that stimulate the parts of our bodies(carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, hydrogen, etc)??? To believe in complete free will...

[Nate2203]

There are no random dice rolls, physics is boss, the dice must abide by it's rules.

[Nate2203]

We do not actually decide what we want, we have that perception, but we don't. Everything is cause and effect, right down to the atomic level. All actions are predetermined.

[happyhappy85]

How do you know how much it only influences?

Decisions are only electrical signals interpreted by the brain.

If you went back and were born again in the exact same conditions, the exact same circumstances. Your life would turn out exactly the same. There is no evidence that says otherwise.

From what we know in the existing world, without any molecular or energy change there will be no change.

What makes you think your brain can overthrow physics?

[happyhappy85]

Will is effected by the past events. You only choose something because of the cause before that. We are only science. We are no different to any other physical being when making choices. We can not make a choice outside of the cause

[happyhappy85]

That is my understanding of determinism... what areyou on about...

Determinism is cause and effect. There is only cause and effect.

[C0urante]

*hears beginning*

NIN FUCK YEAH!!!

[happyhappy85]

Determinism and Fatalism are completely different things. Fatalism says that there is only one way that everything can go no matter what. Determinism says that given the circumstances there is only one way things could have turned out. We know this because for things to happen differently there has to be an external change. If there is no external change things will happen exactly the same. If your life repeted without external change then it would happen exactly the same. Cause and effect.

[playgrrrr]

@happyhappy85 is it useful to distinguish these two? as far as we know there exists only one reality and one set of circumstances to derive an outcome from at any one time. talking about external changes would be talking about things outside the physical ("natural") universe that dont follow any kind of rules (knowable or not doesnt matter; but it would mean that real chaos exists). i dare to say that not even QM is indeterminable in the true sense, but is following some set of rules.

[happyhappy85]

Fatalism seems to be aiming for something. Determinism isn't. It just is. Determinism is impossible to predict because if we did see the determined future it would automatically change.

Well yes that's what i'm saying. Seeing that there is no reason to think there is anything but the natural universe there is no reason to think that determinism isn't true. From what we know determinism can not be argued against.

QM?

[playgrrrr]

@happyhappy85 QM=quantum mechanics.

[playgrrrr]

@OkWheresMyMonkey the issue will remain unresolved until we get a better understanding of where choice comes from. how do you know that it was your will and not an illusion of it about an event that actually was predetermined?

[happyhappy85]

A bit of a cop out don't you think?

There is no real argument against determinism

[at0mic1188]

I'd say that the caller had better arguments than the hosts..

[zaneshark]

Of course things can be determined to have only one possible outcome. Humans die. Like it or not. It's not if or and but. It's a fact.

[mbturner625]

Yeah, but when?

[happyhappy85]

if we had all the information we could see when.

[mbturner625]

I was merely pointing out the simplicity of his argument.