Thank you for your greeting and sincere input Cquevedo10! The conductor, is the composer. He has just joined all musicians, all these musical 'elements' if I may use the word, into one work to the best of his ability. To make this function he needs to certain extent act as a conductor for all musicians on stage in 'Western manner'. If you find that he conducts the Venda unneccessarily, well...I know his wish is to be with them...not force...up to your opinion whether he manages this or not.
1. Did any cultural exchange actually take place in the process of the creation of "Ciacona & Tshikona"? Who wrote the piece of music for the orchestra? Was it a collaborative composition?
2. How is the meaning of the dance (as the national dance of the Venda, the most important and highly regarded musical activity in their culture, and one open to all participants) conveyed?
I don't know how you would define a 'collaborative composition', but to us it is that, yes. Hans Huyssen and we @ miagi have been spending lots of time in Venda, and we have invited the Thikundwi Kha Sialala group to perform their 'dance pure' on various occasions too. Strictly spoken, Tshikona certainly is not for performance in our 'Western music' setting. We however reason (with right or wrong), that the group deserves to travel and be heard anyway, as we cannot bring people to Venda.
@Manunju I am a Muvenda and I must say I am very impressed with the innovation or should I say collaboration..............together we can do more. I am love this......I really do not know how to express myself. I am watching this video over and over again
@SuperRambau thank you for your kind and appreciative words! As you can see, if following the discussion here, that took place about a year ago just after I had placed this video, an innovative collaboration of this kind is everything else but easy, but I like it!, and you are so right - together we can do more - very happy that you like it too!
I have given your comments much thought over the last few days and have sought additional counsel from a number of my colleagues. Out of respect for your work and your videos, I will refrain from further comment. However, here are some lasting points and issues that I believe are not thoroughly addressed in this video, nor in the performance:
Dear Cquevedo10, once again thank you for your sincere interest and input! We acknowledge of course, that there could be many other ways, better and worse? Still, we have simply been thinking, with our extremely difficult circumstances, and restricted means: that it is still better this happens (taking as said, our huge organisational/financial restrictions into consideration in the process), than that it doesn't happen at all.
while the Venda (i.e. African peoples, ethnic minorities, et cetera) dance below in the brightly colored clothes of the "noble savage." Please remove this video and do not perform this offensive music again. As I have said, it is terribly essentialist, exoticizing of Venda culture, and represents the ever strong and terrible arm of neocolonialst discourse of staggered equality and hegemonized notions of progress through this poor excuse for "cultural dialog."
I don't think you know much about the Venda, cquevedo, because if you knew, you would certainly not describe this "dance in brightly coloured clothes" as you do. Having taken part in numerous local festivities and events in Venda, including huge day long 'Tshikona competitions' with some 1 000 participants and 2 000 in the audience, I would like to invite you to come visit, speak to the dancers in this video and to others, and then you can write here.
No, they're simply glued to their sheet music. I cannot proclaim to know much about Venda music or culture, but I can point out neocolonialism when I see it. Where is the "cultural dialog" in the Venda's terms? In their performance space? How are the Venda empowered at all by this performance? Notice the implicit power hierarchies-- the Western musicians (and, by extension, the Western European classical tradition) above the performance
Pls see my other replies. As for the Western European class. trad., - as we know, it can be interpreted to contain hiearchies, 1st violin 2nd violin and so on. All cultures have their own implicit power hiearchies, I cannot eraze them - not those present in Venda either. But where are we, if playing together will for ever and ever be interpreted as insulting in all kinds of ways, just because a first vln may look stern, or an oboist cranky, or a conductor stands where he stands?...sigh...
It's a shame that even in the 21st century people can still get away with such blatant exoticization and essentialization of music cultures in the name of inspiring "cultural dialog." Simply put, the Venda are not presented with any appropriate cultural context, simply placed on the stage (or "under the glass") to dance for their wide-eyed audience. Look at the faces of the Western musicians-- do they look like they are enjoying themselves? Are they playing along with the Venda?
"the Western musicians faces", Again, please come visit. Before you don't know anything about our reality you can dislike the music as such, yes, but you cannot speak in terms of empowernment or non empowernment, dialogue or non dialogue, or in any other of the terms you are using. Also maybe please take a closer look at the Venda musicians faces throughout the performance and after.
3. Why does the conductor conduct the Venda? To me, that says, "Okay, let ME lead you in playing YOUR traditional music." Is that necessary?
4. Finally, has the concert setting been changed at all, or simply "injected" with Venda music and dance?
Just some food for thought. Best of luck in your future collaborations.
cquevedo10 1 year ago 3
Thank you for your greeting and sincere input Cquevedo10! The conductor, is the composer. He has just joined all musicians, all these musical 'elements' if I may use the word, into one work to the best of his ability. To make this function he needs to certain extent act as a conductor for all musicians on stage in 'Western manner'. If you find that he conducts the Venda unneccessarily, well...I know his wish is to be with them...not force...up to your opinion whether he manages this or not.
Manunju 1 year ago
1. Did any cultural exchange actually take place in the process of the creation of "Ciacona & Tshikona"? Who wrote the piece of music for the orchestra? Was it a collaborative composition?
2. How is the meaning of the dance (as the national dance of the Venda, the most important and highly regarded musical activity in their culture, and one open to all participants) conveyed?
cquevedo10 1 year ago
I don't know how you would define a 'collaborative composition', but to us it is that, yes. Hans Huyssen and we @ miagi have been spending lots of time in Venda, and we have invited the Thikundwi Kha Sialala group to perform their 'dance pure' on various occasions too. Strictly spoken, Tshikona certainly is not for performance in our 'Western music' setting. We however reason (with right or wrong), that the group deserves to travel and be heard anyway, as we cannot bring people to Venda.
Manunju 1 year ago
@Manunju I am a Muvenda and I must say I am very impressed with the innovation or should I say collaboration..............together we can do more. I am love this......I really do not know how to express myself. I am watching this video over and over again
SuperRambau 1 month ago
@SuperRambau thank you for your kind and appreciative words! As you can see, if following the discussion here, that took place about a year ago just after I had placed this video, an innovative collaboration of this kind is everything else but easy, but I like it!, and you are so right - together we can do more - very happy that you like it too!
Manunju 1 month ago
Dear Manunju,
I have given your comments much thought over the last few days and have sought additional counsel from a number of my colleagues. Out of respect for your work and your videos, I will refrain from further comment. However, here are some lasting points and issues that I believe are not thoroughly addressed in this video, nor in the performance:
cquevedo10 1 year ago
Dear Cquevedo10, once again thank you for your sincere interest and input! We acknowledge of course, that there could be many other ways, better and worse? Still, we have simply been thinking, with our extremely difficult circumstances, and restricted means: that it is still better this happens (taking as said, our huge organisational/financial restrictions into consideration in the process), than that it doesn't happen at all.
Manunju 1 year ago
while the Venda (i.e. African peoples, ethnic minorities, et cetera) dance below in the brightly colored clothes of the "noble savage." Please remove this video and do not perform this offensive music again. As I have said, it is terribly essentialist, exoticizing of Venda culture, and represents the ever strong and terrible arm of neocolonialst discourse of staggered equality and hegemonized notions of progress through this poor excuse for "cultural dialog."
cquevedo10 1 year ago
I don't think you know much about the Venda, cquevedo, because if you knew, you would certainly not describe this "dance in brightly coloured clothes" as you do. Having taken part in numerous local festivities and events in Venda, including huge day long 'Tshikona competitions' with some 1 000 participants and 2 000 in the audience, I would like to invite you to come visit, speak to the dancers in this video and to others, and then you can write here.
Manunju 1 year ago
No, they're simply glued to their sheet music. I cannot proclaim to know much about Venda music or culture, but I can point out neocolonialism when I see it. Where is the "cultural dialog" in the Venda's terms? In their performance space? How are the Venda empowered at all by this performance? Notice the implicit power hierarchies-- the Western musicians (and, by extension, the Western European classical tradition) above the performance
cquevedo10 1 year ago
Pls see my other replies. As for the Western European class. trad., - as we know, it can be interpreted to contain hiearchies, 1st violin 2nd violin and so on. All cultures have their own implicit power hiearchies, I cannot eraze them - not those present in Venda either. But where are we, if playing together will for ever and ever be interpreted as insulting in all kinds of ways, just because a first vln may look stern, or an oboist cranky, or a conductor stands where he stands?...sigh...
Manunju 1 year ago
It's a shame that even in the 21st century people can still get away with such blatant exoticization and essentialization of music cultures in the name of inspiring "cultural dialog." Simply put, the Venda are not presented with any appropriate cultural context, simply placed on the stage (or "under the glass") to dance for their wide-eyed audience. Look at the faces of the Western musicians-- do they look like they are enjoying themselves? Are they playing along with the Venda?
cquevedo10 1 year ago
"the Western musicians faces", Again, please come visit. Before you don't know anything about our reality you can dislike the music as such, yes, but you cannot speak in terms of empowernment or non empowernment, dialogue or non dialogue, or in any other of the terms you are using. Also maybe please take a closer look at the Venda musicians faces throughout the performance and after.
Manunju 1 year ago