The Stealing of Christmas (Rather Belated Response to Jezuzfreek777)

[richotim]

love you amazing atheist, but american beer sucks (sorry). i know these things, make beer for a hobby

[HonestDiscussioner]

@richotim American beer does NOT suck. What passes for American beer and is now owned by mostly foreign companies suck. Beers like Sam Adams, Dogfish Head, Weyerbacher, and many many others can stand toe-to-toe if not stand over any other country in the world.

[ThinkerResearcher]

@HonestDiscussioner Believe me, you have to come to canada and taste a good old Moosehead, I guarantee that'll change your mind about what "good beer" stands for !

[HonestDiscussioner]

@ThinkerResearcher May hit up Canada this year. If so, you're on.

[xd1rtx]

so in an attempt to persuade atheists to convert to christianity, jezuzfreak intentionally sets a trap for atheists and calls it good will.,,,,, very nice,, that is precisely what christ would do, right?

[HonestDiscussioner]

@xd1rtx Calling it a trap would be giving too much credit I think. That's what he imagined it to be for sure, but it wasn't really good enough to be a trap, imo.

[xd1rtx]

@HonestDiscussioner

call it what you want, either way it was intentionally dishonest and spiteful, total dickhead move,,,, imo.

[roxef]

In my language the name of Christmas isn't Christain, so for me there really is nothing that connects Christmas and Christianity. In fact, when I was young, I didn't know that Christmas is a religious holiday (and to me it still isn't).

[TheNakedAtheist]

Yeah Anthony, we stole Xmas back fair, and square... hands off!

[metalsusa1]

Put some beer in that bottle.

[HonestDiscussioner]

@metalsusa1 Can't. It went in my belly.

[metalsusa1]

@HonestDiscussioner Fair enough.

[tyrongkojy]

What happened to the Honest News?

[HonestDiscussioner]

@tyrongkojy It became too much work for too little reward. Getting dressed, researching stories, editing, finding pictures, writing, making sure the green screen was set up properly, waiting for the file to render in After Effects, then in Premier. It was a full time job, and I was only getting 1-3 hundred views, with no ad revenue.

[tyrongkojy]

@HonestDiscussioner A, bummer man. I always watched.

[tyrongkojy]

@HonestDiscussioner ah

[melowar78]

After I watch a JezuzFreek video, my face hurts from all the face-palming. He's got to be one of the most obtuse individuals in the history of mankind.

[mandangalo18]

this was a good one

[rictusgate]

Tradition - just another word for surrender . . . I, personally, shun it in all its forms. They are truly a waste of time and energy.

[endergt]

Boston Lager is too bitter. Sam Adams Light, though, is the only light beer worth drinking.

[HonestDiscussioner]

@endergt I'll agree with your assertion of Sam Light. Only light beer I've had with any character to it.

[prodprod]

Presumably, most non-believers who celebrate Christmas do so for the same reason that they celebrate Halloween -- which was also, at one point, a specifically Christian celebration which had previously been a Pagan celebration and is now essentially -- nothing. It's just a night when kids dress up and go around and get candy.

And I actually have Orthodox neighbors who don't send their kids out because it's a bit too "pagan" for them - but it's not really Pagan now any more than it's Christian.

[poisionarrowclean]

Simple question to this whole video: why are atheists celebrating something that isn't anything you can or want to celebrate?

[TheTomtompiper]

@poisionarrowclean I most certainly can celebrate it, and I most certainly do want to celebrate it, after it is by any same definition a secular holiday and only a small percentage of the worlds population see it as anything other than a good excuse for a party.

[poisionarrowclean]

@TheTomtompiper The fact that it is 24 december or that it's the winter solstice? Why is this something you want to celebrate?

[TheTomtompiper]

@poisionarrowclean the days are getting longer and the weather is getting warmer, what better excuse to get together with friends and family and have a right good knees up? There isn't anything supernatural about it. it is what it is, a secular holiday and a bloody good excuse to get right royally pissed and have a good time.

[poisionarrowclean]

@TheTomtompiper You can get together with friends and family whenever you want. If they are your friends and your friends alone, you certainly don't want old pagan or christian traditions to dictate when you are allowed to meet them. So why are you trying to pretend you're not a hypocrite?

[Lynx787]

@poisionarrow Not everyone who celebrates a holiday does so out of religious obligation, they do so because it's a Holiday. The christians stole Yule-tide from the pagans and then put their traditions into it. Atheists can do the same as christians who supposedly believe in "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and put their own traditions in the Holiday like they did, but most christians are totalitarians and believe they can do whatever while no else can.

[poisionarrowclean]

@Lynx787 You still avoid the main issue, which is; why is it a holiday for atheists when atheists are the ones who usually fight religion influence on society? What exactly are you celebrating? Are you celebrating the fact that christians are celebrating the birthday of christ? Are you celebrating something you don't believe in because of outside social pressure?

[Lynx787]

@poisionarrowclean What avoidance? It was already explained to you. We are celebrating a Holiday. That's it. Time off work and giving presents to loved ones and getting them in return on an agreed to day. Yes it can be done any day as well, but it might easily fall on some other holiday and you'd be against that too. What's your beef with it? Have no family or loved ones at all to celebrate anything with? It's usually people who are alone who feel so negative about holidays.

[poisionarrowclean]

@Lynx787 "We are celebrating a Holiday."

But you aren't christians. Some muslims have holidays other people don't share like ramadan. So why are you NOT celebrating ramadan, and why are you celebrating christmas?

"Time off work and giving presents to loved ones"

Oh you can do that any weekend. There's plenty of "holidays" round the year. My question is why are you pretending to be a christian over a day?

[Lynx787]

@poisionarrowclean "But you aren't christians and you don't celebrate ramadan." LMAO are you ever dense. Christmas isn't christian it's pagan. NO ONE is pretending to be christian while celebrating a pagan holiday any more than christians are pretending to be pagan when they use that day. It's an AGREED TO DAY. How many times do you have to be told the same thing before it sinks in.

[poisionarrowclean]

@Lynx787 How about you quote something I actually say, and how about you actually answer my question instead of saying I need to be told the same thing and that I'm dense because it doesn't sink in. If you avoid the question, it is going to be repeated. And the question is:

"why are you pretending to be a christian over a day?"

Sure it's a holiday for everyone, but why have a tree in your house, why give somebody gifts, why decorate your house? And why do all this while christian does?

[Lynx787]

@poisionarrowclean You were told, but can't comprehend it. That's DENSE (slow/dull-witted/stupid)

Get it through your thick skull that nobody is "pretending" to be christian on a pagan holiday. The tree was a PAGAN tradition before the christians STOLE it for themselves. You should be asking "Why are christians PRETENDING to be PAGANS on that day?"

You must be pretending to be pagan on THEIR day right?

Idiot.

[Lynx787]

@poisionarrowclean And still you prove how dumb you are. LOL You are not pagan so should NOT celebrate anything on a pagan holiday like Eoster and Yuletide at all. If you are putting up a tree then you are practicing PAGAN traditions. You still don't understand that people like me don't follow any RELIGIOUS traditions at all. It's just a day to celebrate FRIENDS and FAMILY.

You are a TOTALITARIAN who has the idiocy to propose that only you and your cult can celebrate anything.

[poisionarrowclean]

@Lynx787 Well you seem to be pretty convinced that I'm dumb, because you think I'm dumb enough to buy your cute excuses.

"It's just a day to celebrate FRIENDS and FAMILY."

How interesting that you come to do that EXACTLY when christians and pagans are doing, yeah what a funny coincidence of all the 365 days round the year and I totally believe you're not subject to social pressure but a free thinker.

[Lynx787]

@poisionarrowclean It is an AGREED TO DAY. NOTHING to do with religion at all. Something that work places everywhere, no matter "religion", agrees to take time off. However, YOU only want "christians" to celebrate a holiday that is not even theirs. Yes, that is incredibly dumb.

[poisionarrowclean]

@Lynx787 When it comes to CELEBRATION, I have, believe it or not, one question. And the question follows: what are you celebrating at the 24 december? The fact that you are subject to social pressure and have to copy what the mighty christians are doing?

[poisionarrowclean]

@Lynx787 "You are a TOTALITARIAN who has the idiocy to propose that only you and your cult can celebrate anything."

It's a bit like saying americans are tyrants and racists because they think only americans can celebrate the national day of USA. Or that for example muslims are totalitarians for saying only muslims can pray to Allah in mosques. What business do you have imitating the traditions and ways of completely alien cults from your own?

[Lynx787]

@poisionarrowclean Look up the definition of totalitarian if you can actually comprehend what you read. You only want your cult to have its way and no one else should.

[poisionarrowclean]

@Lynx787 "It is an AGREED TO DAY"

Between christians and pagans perhaps, but certainly not modern day atheist who are suppose to be AGAINST religious influences yet without any sort of argument or reason simply adapts and swallows christmas. I've asked you several times and still you can't give me an explanation.

24 december shouldn't be a special day according to atheists, it's a day like any other, yet you tries to pretend you're a christian that day. Why?

[poisionarrowclean]

@Lynx787 "if you can actually comprehend what you read"

I was just about to ask you that, can you read the question I put to you or not? Are you parroting yourself because you can't understand the english language, or because you are in denial over the fact that you cannot rationally motivate your closet christianity?

[Lynx787]

@poisionarrowclean You either can't understand the answers you've been given or refuse to which is even stupider. Do you think that buddhists, atheists, hindus or whatever don't get time off then because they don't acknowledge the same religious idiocy that you do? And you still are dumb enough to go on about us "pretending to be christian" when none of the religious claptrap is acknowledged at all. Hitler too said "Only we are of the superior class" like you seem to think.

[poisionarrowclean]

Gotta admit I appreciate and enjoy reading your replies because you tread water like a moron. And I'm not even TRYING to troll you.

"can't understand the answers you've been given"

You mean these kinds of elaborative clever answers:

I'm totalitarian. I'm stupid. It's agreed to day, we have agreed to celebrate christmas. Christians are pagans. I should ask a different question. You like getting together with family and friends.

^^None of that stuff is relevant. WHY do you celebrate CHRISTMAS?

[Lynx787]

@poisionarrowclean If you could understand the answers that are being told to you instead of ignoring them because you don't like or can't accept them then you wouldn't be seen as stupid. You want your way and no one else should matter. That's totalitarian. Yes hindus and buddhists get time off work during the season and spend it with their family and friends, which you don't seem to get or like. They don't work while only christians get to have a holiday.

[poisionarrowclean]

@Lynx787 "Do you think that buddhists, atheists, hindus or whatever"

They don't celebrate christmas as far as I know, and jews celebrate hanukkah. Why aren't YOU celebrating hanukkah, you plagiarising hypocrite? Why aren't you celebrating ramadan? Why ARE you celebrating christmas? Questions need answers. Yeah you don't LIKE religion but you apply religious tradititions nonetheless which makes you look like a clown who just goes along with the social pressure. And you can't motivate that.

[Lynx787]

@poisionarrowclean Again I DON"T CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS as a christian or pagan or religious anything. That's been told to you multiple times now. I get time off and spend it with my loved ones. If you can't even get it right after all this then you've proven how stupid you really are to anyone reading.

Not a troll? With no background, no friends (not surprising) and no vids? LMAO You can add liar to that as well.

[poisionarrowclean]

"Again I DON"T CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS"

Again? You have never said that before. If you just said that from the beginning I wouldn't have had to ask why you celebrate christmas. If you don't, you don't. Problem is I suspect you ARE celebrating christmas because you conform to the tradition of HOW to celebrate christmas even if you are insisting you are not, which would make you the liar. Time off work doesn't = allowed to be christian. And people are allowed to have their channels as they like.

[Lynx787]

@poisionarrowclean Yes I did, but you are too brain-dead to understand what was told to you. Go back and reread everything and then maybe something will sink in to that ossified skull of yours. None of the religious traditions that you go on about are acknowledged in the slightest. None.

[poisionarrowclean]

@Lynx787 "you are too brain-dead"

These kind of ad hominems about me being braindead, dense, stupid and so on, are only there in attempt to distract me because you are simply too mentally weak to defend yourself. I suggest you reread your own comments, you have never said to me you don't celebrate christmas. You have made excuses as for why you do it, because you don't think christians have monopoly on their own traditions. Try keep a consistent line instead of being an emotional clown.

[Lynx787]

@poisionarrowclean If the shoe fits... You are the one who keeps on refusing to understand what's plainly said to you because you don't like or can't accept the answer you've been given. It doesn't matter what the holiday is if you get time off to spend time with whoever. That keeps going over your head.

[poisionarrowclean]

@Lynx787 "You are the one who keeps on refusing to understand what's plainly said to you"

I have no problem at all with understanding what you have said to me. What I don't like is how you avoid the question, and how you simply refuse to rationalize your position as an atheist. You think calling me dense is an intelligent argument that gets you out of trouble. It's not. It only shows that you are the dense person here, because you cannot articulate any valid thought.

[poisionarrowclean]

@Lynx787 I've been asking why you ARE celebrating a christian/pagan holiday when you are neither christian or pagan, despite the fact that you have time off work. I'm now gonna ask why you are NOT celebrating OTHER religious traditions. Such as hanukkah. Why are you NOT celebrating hanukkah? Is it because

1) You are an atheist, and atheists don't celebrate jewish holidays

or 2) You have decided to not plagiarize that specific holiday because you don't get stuff like in christmas?

[Lynx787]

@poisionarrowclean You still don't get it. You are just too obtuse. You only want christians to be able to take time off and everyone else can't. Only christian schools should take winter break for the season. Only christians should be able to take holidays. But that doesn't happen in reality so you are butt-hurt over it. Go cry to someone else about your "unfair treatment" that other people get to have holidays too.

[poisionarrowclean]

@Lynx787 "You are just too obtuse."

And you are just too hopeless in conducting a rational discussion.

"You only want christians to be able to take time off"

Strawman argument. I've never said anything like that. I don't understand your methods of picking up reality around you. You read stuff that has never been written, and you claim to have written stuff that I cannot find in your writings. You are deluded Lynx.

[Lynx787]

@poisionarrowclean Youconsistently dismiss the fact that people can celebrate on that day without making it religious. Everytime I said that you went on about how no one but christians should be able to celebrate on that day, so YES you said that. Then you call me delusional? LMAO I already said as well that No One is pretending to be christian or imitating them at all but you didn't understand that either.

[poisionarrowclean]

@Lynx787 "Youconsistently dismiss the fact that people can celebrate on that day without making it religious."

You consistently dismiss the fact that this isn't the point of my question. I'm asking WHAT are you celebrating at the christmas holiday and WHY? Why are you NOT celebrating OTHER holidays like hanukkah and ramadan? You still haven't answered these questions, rather you've used every synonym in the dictionary for "stupid": obtuse, dense, braindead, slow, dull-witted.

[Lynx787]

@poisionarrowclean You need things spelled out for you like a little kid don't you.

1. What are you celebrating and why? Time off work, friends and family, Why? because it's a good time for everyone.

2.Why are you not celebrating other holidays? If I get time off work along with my friends and family then we'll get together and have a time no matter the "holiday" it falls on.

Those were answered multiple times before, but they passed through your head.

[poisionarrowclean]

@Lynx787 "What are you celebrating and why? Time off work, friends and family,"

Are you celebrating your family and friends at 24 december (or maybe it's 25 december in USA)? Are they not worthy of being celebrated everytime round the year? You are that stingy to only show your appreciation for them at 1 day of all the 365 days?

"because it's a good time for everyone"

No it's not. The winter solstice often means snow, and it makes it difficult to travel between households.

[poisionarrowclean]

@Lynx787 "If I get time off work along with my friends and family then we'll get together"

So you are telling me you don't actually celebrate anything? You just get together with family? Okay. WHEN you get together with your family at the christmas holiday, are you doing ANYTHING outside the usual? Like giving eachother gifts, or having some kind of tree in your house? Answer, and do it honestly (if you dare).

[poisionarrowclean]

@Lynx787 "you went on about how no one but christians should be able to celebrate on that day"

Bring on the quotes or stop replying, because lying isn't gonna work as an escape way out. Obvious ad hominems are obvious, and so are off-topic things. Yes I call you delusional because all you're doing is proving that you are. Instead of communicating properly and address the questions I wrote to you.

[Lynx787]

@poisionarrowclean When it was said that I celebrate with friiends and family without any religion you said "24 december shouldn't be a special day according to atheists, yet you tries to pretend you're a christian that day" and then kept on about how only christians should be able to have it even though it was originally pagan. The christians stole it, but you don't like atheists "stealing" it like the christians did.

[poisionarrowclean]

@Lynx787 "Those were answered multiple times before, but they passed through your head."

No they haven't, you're lying again. This is the first time you answer about not celebrating other holidays, and you never said anything about having "a good time". Stating that you're not a religious person is not an answer to the question why you celebrate religious holidays.

"only christians should be able"

As I said, quote me where I said that, and don't make up stories.

[Lynx787]

@poisionarrowclean Yes they were answered. Just because you couldn't understand them in the first place doesn't make me a liar, it just proves how slow you are to understand things.

When people get time off to spend it with each other then they do. That's too hard for you to get? "Snow" makes it "too difficult" to travel? LOL Maybe for someone like you, but hardy people or those with vehicles don't find it difficult at all.

[poisionarrowclean]

@Lynx787 "Yes they were answered."

*yawn* no they weren't and you know it, you're just in denial.

"it just proves how slow you are to understand things."

No it proves that you sweetie have a need to make emotional assumptions when you feel your intellect doesn't measure up in confrontation. It doesn't matter who said what, as long as you get to make it up in your head to avoid self-criticism.

[poisionarrowclean]

@Lynx787 "When people get time off to spend it with each other then they do."

Not necessarily though.

"hardy people or those with vehicles don't find it difficult at all."

If you had a car you would know snow makes driving alot more annoying. And that families with a distance away from eachother would prefer to get together at any time of the year BUT winter. See thinking isn't the strong side of the common atheist. No I'm not a christian myself.

[Lynx787]

@poisionarrowclean You claim to not be christian and yet you are complaining that atheists are celebrating on "their day". LOL

"*yawn* no they weren't (answered) and you know it" Look back to the beginning of our "discussion" and actually read them and you will see that they were. Of course you didn't understand it so...

Sorry that you are too feeble to travel in the wintertime, but not every one is afraid of the cold and the snow. Most can travel in it with no problems.

[poisionarrowclean]

@Lynx787 "that atheists are celebrating on 'their day'"

If you put quotation marks around "their day" are you implying that I've said that 24 december is only the day of christians? Because I have never said that. You're fond of strawmen arguments huh. Do what the hell you like on 24 december, just don't imitate christian traditions and then claim you're an atheist. It is hypocritical and disingenious.

[Lynx787]

@poisionarrowclean You never read the comments did you. Too hard for you to do?

Every time it was said that the day was an agreed to day that everyone likes to get together on you came back with "but you aren't christian" "Why would you celebrate on a christian holiday if you are not christian" "Why are you pretending to be christian"

and ignored when it was said that no one "imitates the christian traditions".

Denying what you wrote is TRULY disingenuous. It's all here.

[poisionarrowclean]

@Lynx787 Are you celebrating the christmas holiday, or do you "just get together with family at 24 december"? Do you exchange gifts on that day? If so, you are not "just getting together with family" you are in fact celebrating christmas. The problem with you Lynx is that you try to act ignorant of the point I'm making which is ridicolous and no you're not fooling anyone with your theater. Another point in question; do you always get together with family whenever you have time off work?

[Lynx787]

@poisionarrowclean The problem with you poison is that you don't understand that the Label of the day doesn't matter. You could call it super-grinch day and have the same party. It was called Yule before it changed to christmas, Xmas to just happy holidays.

"do you always get together with family?" No I get together with friends and sometimes my family which is why I kept saying friends first. Sorry you couldn't understand that either and needed it explained to you.

[poisionarrowclean]

@Lynx787 How come you yet again avoid the question? Alright, I'll just ignore everything you say unless you address the question. Here it goes again:

Are you celebrating the christmas holiday, or do you "just get together with family at 24 december"?

[Lynx787]

@poisionarrowclean My "arguments" are well thought out (since you don't allow comments) you just couldn't understand them.

It's the second one. Like I said before. Even more simply put so you can finally get it through: Time off work all at once. Time to have a good time with friends (first) and family (second). It's the season for shopping with great deals all around so it's great to exchange things with those you love. No petty religious bullshit.

[poisionarrowclean]

@Lynx787 Fine. So basically you're saying you are just a subject to social pressure? Doing what society and what everybody around you thinks you should be doing?

Do you decorate your house with mythological or religious stuff around this day? Do you drag a tree in your house?

[Lynx787]

@poisionarrowclean Social pressure? And you claim to not be dense after missing the point once again? You are too obtuse. Most adults understand things at least the second time things have been explained, but not you. You are stuck on the religious claptrap of the day, nothing else matters to you. You hate anyone but religious people celebrating anything for any reason and if they do they are "pretending" to be religious. Thick.

[Lynx787]

@poisionarrowclean You can stop with your advancements. I'm not interested in ignoramuses like you.

[poisionarrowclean]

@Lynx787 Yet you've made this utterly pointless argument with me for 5 pages when you could've just pulled yourself together and answered my questions to begin with. First now you're "not interested". You are projecting your stupidity on me, assuming I'm that stupid as to buy your excuses for arrogant, presumptious unintellectual behavior. You've run out of ad hominems and discovered that you are in fact a hypocrite. Congratulations. And you still haven't answered what I asked you.

[Lynx787]

@poisionarrowclean Pointless. Because you couldn't understand to you. LMAO

[Lynx787]

@poisionarrowclean Yes that was intentional. If you can't understand plain english then you can only understand warped. You were answered, you just refused the answer since you didn't like it. You made all kinds of lame comments on my page trying to get me to talk to you since no one else does. No more. You can daydream that people are stealing christmas from the christians who stole it from the pagans, but believing a lie is true doesn't make it true. No one believes or talks to you anyway.

[poisionarrowclean]

@Lynx787 "Only christians should be able to take holidays. But that doesn't happen in reality so you are butt-hurt over it."

So as I've come to concluded, your notion of reality is a really weird one. You insist on avoiding questions that are crystal clear, simple and explicitly put several times.

And you can take holiday if you like, just don't try to imitate the christian way of spending that holiday. If you are against religious influences you should be against exceptions for groups.

[poisionarrowclean]

@Lynx787 "You should be asking 'Why are christians PRETENDING to be PAGANS on that day?'"

But I am not. I don't care for what you think I should be asking. I'm asking you, why you think you should follow their traditions when you belong to neither cult, and I think you should give it a try and answer the question instead of pretending it doesn't exist and dribble your way out of it by throwing insults or saying that christians stole pagan traditions. I'm talking about YOU. Who is dense here?

[JimBCameron]

@poisionarrowclean That's the central point, your society gears up for a celebration of whatever, why not enjoy the period? That's what Christianity did & it aided the chance to convert, before it that's what Rome did with the festivities already in place etc. etc., similarly if a culture you're trading closely with does why not tie in to it to avoid losses in import/export etc. it's not complicated. :)

[poisionarrowclean]

@JimBCameron "your society gears up for a celebration of whatever, why not enjoy the period"

If you enjoy christian traditions why not become a christian?

[HonestDiscussioner]

@poisionarrowclean "If you enjoy christian traditions why not become a christian?"

I'll agree with this. If you enjoy Christian traditions you should become a Christian. Since Christmas traditions are pagan though, I'm assume you'll be just as quick to assert that those that enjoy Christmas traditions should become pagan.

[poisionarrowclean]

@HonestDiscussioner Alright, so if you enjoy pagan traditions why not become a pagan? The christians had reasons to celebrate 24 december as the holiday because of the birthday of their saviour. Both pagans and christians have their in-house reasons to celebrate christmas. Atheists, however, have not. Atheists seems to talk alot but think less about what they actually talk about.

[HonestDiscussioner]

@poisionarrowclean "Alright, so if you enjoy pagan traditions why not become a pagan?"

Because the origin of the celebration says nothing about how enjoyable that celebration is. I don't celebrate it because it is pagan, its a mix of the fact it's something I've done since I was a kid, and its a lot of fun.

You can celebrate on the 24th all you want, but if you're doing it using pagan traditions, you're not celebrating Christ. The date and the celebrations are different things.

[poisionarrowclean]

@HonestDiscussioner "it's something I've done since I was a kid, and its a lot of fun."

Many christians have been reading their bible since they were kids, and they still worship scripture because it's a lot of fun. Atheists tend to call that indoctrination. So are you saying you have been indoctrinated to enjoy christmas?

[HonestDiscussioner]

@poisionarrowclean "Many christians have been reading their bible since they were kids, and they still worship scripture because it's a lot of fun. Atheists tend to call that indoctrination."

It's indoctrination when you present something as fact, AND actively prevent your child from finding out about alternative viewpoints that contradict your own. Huge difference.

[poisionarrowclean]

@HonestDiscussioner Yeah but why would you feel compelled to take up an old pagan and/or christian tradition? If muslims pray on carpets turned to Mecca, maybe that's alot of fun, and you should pick that tradition up aswell? Point is, do you have any reason to "celebrate" 24 december?

[HonestDiscussioner]

@poisionarrowclean " Yeah but why would you feel compelled to take up an old pagan and/or christian tradition?"

I told you. It's tradition, and its fun. I enjoy the experience, regardless of its origins. That's enough.

[poisionarrowclean]

@HonestDiscussioner What exactly is so enjoyable about the experience of 24 december? You can get together with friends and families whenever you like, for example 24 november.

[HonestDiscussioner]

@poisionarrowclean "What exactly is so enjoyable about the experience of 24 december?"

It's an agreed upon time in which many different people are celebrating at once, adding to the atmosphere, and the date it has traditionally been celebrated on.

[redlion7277]

Winter Lager is their best in my opinion

[HonestDiscussioner]

@redlion7277 I'm a huge fan of their winter lager, though each of their brews changes from year to year. This year was a bit of a dud for the winter lager . . . summer this past year was absolutely terrible as well. Octoberfest had a decent year, and the inaugural batch of Harvest Pumpkin Ale was perfect.

[angrywhenroused]

Having a holiday after the longest day to celebrate you will soon be getting more than 7 hours daylight seems a very good idea to me. Having one to celebrate the defiantly made up parts of the new testament, not so much of a good idea.

So cheers for longer days,

[USERNAMEfieldempty]

"Happy Christmas!"

or, as we atheists like to say, "Happy Christmas!"

It works better when you say it. err... and when it's Christmas.

[1n354a]

I wonder why Jesusfreak777 (and other like-minded Christians) pick on our use of 'their' Winter holiday and ignore the fact that during their Spring holiday, we atheists readily await the coming of the a festive bunny rabbit who hides colorful, hard boiled, chicken eggs for our children to find. Or is there to be a war on Easter now as well.....?

Then again, didn't the Christians steal the idea of a festival celebrating the rebirth of life in the Spring?

What an original bunch!

[bossman103]

@1n354a Easer wasnt stolen

[1n354a]

@bossman103 well sure it wasn't 'stolen'....perhaps a better way to say it would be that the Easter celebration was conveniently placed on or around a time period in which many non-Christian groups were celebrating more or less the same thing (sun returning to the world after a long dark winter; returning of life)....and then they incorporated a lot of the traditions as well, since, well, why not? But you are right...stolen was just a little harsh and misleading. Thanks for the catch!

[bossman103]

@1n354a Not really christians could not figure out when the pasca was as the jewish calaender was lunar so they calcualted it was thwe third sunday in april. Wrongly as thats not when passover is but it was an honest attmept unforuntely april in anglo germanic countries celelbrated oastree month then and basically they wouldnt give it up so they got squished

[1n354a]

@bossman103 OR.....they saw a bunch of people who had a celebration of the return of the light after darkness (life from death) and tagged right along, thusly increasing the number of converts and decreasing the amount of effort they would have to exert to establish a new holiday. The Easter bunny, hot crossed buns, the giving of eggs, the return of the son....all things that make Easter what it is and all from non-Christian origins.

[bossman103]

@1n354a no they were carrying practices from jews. THe last supper was the passover proof i would say when they ask jesus where they are having passover that day. So yes it is passover and is just coincidence and has nothing to do withy pagans

[1n354a]

@bossman103 In light of how Easter is celebrated today, I would say that your argument doesn't hold up, but whatever. We'll just agree to disagree. 

[KasparHauser6]

apparently Christmas ( Christ Mass) was not officially celebrated until the 4th century AD/CE. The very first European settlers in America (The Pilgrims) did not celebrate Christmas and they considered it to be a pagan holiday not a christian one.No where in the Bible does Jesus ask his followers to celebrate his birthday. Celebration of birthdays was a pagan Roman custom,

[Samura1gamer]

a response to jezuzfreak is a response wasted

[rednecktrucker1969]

It (christmas-modern) is becoming like the xmas of old days, people are taking what they would like and leaving out the bits they dont like. I think it will always be that way for major holidays. Easter (Ostara) is another fine example of this.

[EntinludeX]

This time, this time

Making Christmas, making Christmas

Is so fine, It's ours this time

And won't the cildren be surprised

It's ours this time

Making Christmas, Making Christmas

All together, that and this

With all our tricks we're making Christmastime

[bossman103]

HD, youi knwo I respect you but. its annoying its not a pagan holiday for the millionth time. It wasnt a pagan it was nevcer a pagan holiday before christiqans got to it. OK This is noit a mjatter of opinion its a mjatter of fact. I would reccomend reading william tighe article calculoating christmas and why christmas was not pagan

[Skindoggiedog]

@bossman103 You typing with your nose, bro?

[bossman103]

@Skindoggiedog pardon. Sorry i made some spelling mistakes refute what I said not the wayt I said it

[Skindoggiedog]

@bossman103 "pardon. Sorry i made some spelling mistakes refute what I said not the wayt I said it"

I'm not interested in what you said. Your communication skills are worse than any 8-year-old I've ever known.

If you're dyslexic or something, fair enough. If not, what the hell IS wrong with you?

[unixhead101]

@bossman103 You're mistaken, Christmas was indeed stolen from the Pagans, even JF777 admits to this. Why is it you christians can never seem to get your stories straight?

[bossman103]

@unixhead101 Yes he does and he is wrong. Christmas was never tied to any pagan holiday. Until after aurelian created sol invictus to fight chriastianity in rome

[JimBCameron]

@bossman103 Your argument that it was brought in to tie in with an Imperial Holiday (ie wasn't directly to compete with Yule & the Solstice kinda misses the origins of why they had an Imperial Holiday over that period in the first place, equally real politik?

[bossman103]

@JimBCameron No my agument is that is one of the reasons christans in rome, egypt and greece were already cellebrating it. Had been for years

[JimBCameron]

@bossman103 That's a different argument than you made before, but the same pont still applies as far as why that period was chosen. 2 points your point to unixhead101 equally pointless (non-christian>christian, but as you say irrelevant to truth, however, the onus is on the one who aims to refute the current status quo to prove their theory?), & anyway, never underestimate the use of pre-existing tradition etc. in such matters.

[bossman103]

@JimBCameron No it is the argument I have presenting. Yes because just because you are a christian, muslim, jew, atheist, agnostic does not make you automatically wrong or right anyone who sasys it does is an idiot. This is the argument id supporters use to suggest why no one entetains there crackpot theoires. Sam here I am afraid, attack his arguments not his worldview, no it is not I present tighte who used evidence why his case is right. You have to refute that before we move on.

[JimBCameron]

@bossman103 I think you miss the point, so by your logic if I suggest some potentially correlation between two observations you then have to disprove cause between them? Doesn't work that way if you how history or scientific investigation works.

[JimBCameron]

@JimBCameron Anyway, gotta get back to work, but I'm unconvinced by your argument, it flies in the face of how I understand the world works, Been fun. :)

[bossman103]

@JimBCameron No the evidence shows that christians followed the date of december 25th before it was associated with the cult of sol invictus so therefore disproving it was pagan in origin. What is ahrd to understand about that fact

[JimBCameron]

@bossman103 Come again? What are you saying, that in Scandanavia & northern Europe they didn't celebrate the Solstice at that time of the year, long before Christianity emerged? I think you need to read a bit further afield.

[unixhead101]

@JimBCameron Precisely, anyone who thinks that christians "invented" christmas, ought to stop reading apologists, like william Tighe, and do some independent research. But we know that's not going to happen!

[bossman103]

@unixhead101 ghe is a professor at a univeristy. Why should i not read him ioh because hes a christian. Right its not facts that make you right its what worldview you have. THats delusional

[bossman103]

@JimBCameron No i am saying that the winter soltice as you describe did not fall on december 25th in their calender at he time.

[unixhead101]

@bossman103 Do you deny the paralels between the pagan winter solstice and the christian christmas?

[bossman103]

@unixhead101 What parrarels

[unixhead101]

@bossman103 There you have it! You don't have the faintest idea what your arguing against, do you. If you did then you wouldn't ask such a silly question.

Like I suggested, do some research of your own and stay away from biased christians.

[bossman103]

@unixhead101 Since when was william tighe biased. i am sorry you ahve to rpoove bias. No because I need to know like do you mean decorations and tree then yes that was added later do you mean presents then maybe it could be either way the presents given to jesus ould be a origin for the presents. However the date no. So that why I am asking.

[unixhead101]

@bossman103 Look, Bossman, all you need to do is type "is christmas a pagan holiday" into Google. You'll find almost 2,000000 hits, a lot of them from christian organizations, as well as other secular sources. Happy reading.

[bossman103]

@unixhead101 Yes and they are wrong god. Look upo what he says and the sources he cites. Quanitity does nto equally correct or do the the amount of ctheists in the world which more than atheists mean that god exists i so you are appealing to majority instead to facts

[unixhead101]

@bossman103 "Yes and they are wrong god" oh, really, that's surprising!

You just keep on denying reality if it makes you feel better about your religion. Clearly "the facts" to you are what you want them to be, if some facts don't fit, just find some new ones that do. Works every time!

[bossman103]

@unixhead101 No you keep on denying it the facts show youa re wrong christwe have evidence that christians in both egypt and greeece followed this holiday befopre sol invictus. No the facts are what has evidence to back them up. TRHis is nopt a hard concept to understnad. Look people have said tht in the past and I would have to be a liar or dishonest not to admit that however archelogical evidence has shown that is not the case. So look at egyptian and greek xtians for me

[bossman103]

@unixhead101 Oh and I have read both sides you obivously have not

[unixhead101]

@bossman103

"Tighe says it,

I believe it,

That's the end if it."

Now, where have I heard that before?

[bossman103]

@unixhead101 No its he presented a good case, it seems to correlate with the archeology. Your argument goes like this premis wiliam tighe is a christian TIghe must be dishonest so therefore he must be wrong. THta is not nhow iuntellectual arguments go. It usually goes to me premises person present eargument you inveastigate claims see if they are lacking ask them to double check their argument. You have not checked hi fact but appel to majority which is a logical fallacy

[unixhead101]

@bossman103 Tighe's article is nothing more than an apologetic rambling as to why it's just mere coincidence that the christian christmas looks suspiciously like it was misappropriated directly from the roots of Pagan traditions, which had clearly been in evidence for many, many years before christianity was even thought of.

Which came first, the pagan solstice or christian christmas?

[bossman103]

@unixhead101 No it is not it presents sources which you refuse to address, like the evidence that christians celelbrted it on the 25th. You can avoid this issue as uch you want but you look dishonest. THe soltice fell on many dates especially ine gypt. In rome it fell on the 25th when the julian calenfder came . It didnt aurellian made it to conmbat christianity. I dont knwo why greek and egyptian christians chose 25th as the date just they did and it was not a pagan festival before

[unixhead101]

@bossman103 Answer the question.

Which came first, the pagan solstice or christian christmas?

[bossman103]

@unixhead101 winter sosltice but only by a couple of 100 years

[unixhead101]

@bossman103 Game over!

[bossman103]

@unixhead101 What? it did not fall on the 25th onuntil the julian calender and there were not pagan festival on that datew ok end of sotry

[JimBCameron]

@bossman103 Saturnalia was a week earlier, but that's a Roman festival, Pope Julius I set Christmas in December in the 4th century, & Orthodox Christians about a week earlier I think. Do you know much about Yule or are you just trusting this guy Tighe?

[bossman103]

@JimBCameron No he didnt. It was a poltical play as 25th was ra roman imperial holiday and cconstainte favouring christianity saw that as 25th wasa date favourited for christ's birth thaat he could use that to get christians to cellebrate 25tgh without outright endorsing the imperic holiday. Yes I know about yule and its where we got trees and decoratiosn from. TIghe makes good points which you havent refuted yet,

[HonestDiscussioner]

@bossman103 I'll address your arguments tomorrow, most likely.

[MsMrNoface]

JF's argument amounts to --- It's mine.

[thaterp]

if youre a sam adams fan, cream stout is where its at

[HonestDiscussioner]

@thaterp I've had the cream stout, but it's been a while. Perhaps I should pick up a 6-pack and try it again.

Really, anything but the Scotch Ale and the Cranberry one is where its at. They are almost all amazing. Now I want chocolate boch . . . I'm gonna go get a chocolate boch now.