Do Atheists Have Faith? - The Atheist Experience (theUKatheist)

[theUKatheist]

i was just pointed out that my new video was similar to this. please check it out :)

/watch?v=D0ThTMgtRlE&feature=c­olike

[ummmerrrrummm]

It's not so much that I do presume. I don't. But that's why I'm more inclined to be an agnostic than an atheist. The definitions can be different depending on who you talk to, so some might call me an atheist anyway.

But, when I think, 'Why is there something rather than nothing?' (classic question) I am stumped.

To say there is no God seems a little more than a conclusion based on probability, because it is a very difficult thing to determine the probability of.

[theUKatheist]

@ummmerrrrummm you should watch "a universe from nothing"by Lawrence Krauss. It explains that "nothing" even contains something and how its possible the universe came from nothing. Watch and you will get what I mean. Its also very interesting and you will learn a lot as I did. =)

[ummmerrrrummm]

@theUKatheist Yeah cheers, I might just check that out. I was just going to mention a similar discussion that I watched on youtube on the same topic between Dawkins and Stephen Weinberg. It's on these kinds of questions.

Dawkins seemed fairly sure that science would be able to offer, one day, answers/explanations for origins, and weinberg had an interesting response. Even if we can explain our universe coming from nothing, we still have laws of physics to begin with, where did they come from?

[theUKatheist]

@ummmerrrrummm thats the thing, before the big bang we don't know, its likely the laws of physics as we know it didn't exist. time its self may have started from that point. Before this for all we know our universe could be ending and beginning in a constant loop. Theres literally infinite answers to the question on the origins of the universe, time paradox being one. Theres aliens or a God who could have created us but that then begs the question of who created them? So it has to be natural.

[ummmerrrrummm]

@ummmerrrrummm I think we have similar perspectives, but have a slightly differing perspective on the probability of a god or something. You probably think it's very improbable, whilst I am a little more open to the idea, not because I see tangible proof in our world, but just as a postulation because of the questions why and how?

Thanks for the Krauss reference. You should check out the Dawkins weinberg thing if u havent already seen it... its pretty good.

[theUKatheist]

@ummmerrrrummm I will do thank you. But again remember to say a God did it you must logically ask where God came from. The paradox remains. Saying its a God solves nothing I'm afraid.

[ummmerrrrummm]

@theUKatheist I don't claim knowledge, but God or no God, we are left with the same question of what came before... I know what you mean. It's so paradoxical, but either position is a paradox.

It may well seem more logical that there isn't a god, but sometimes logic leads us up the garden path. Things seem fairly logical to us such as physics and then we uncover the mayhem of the quantum world.

[theUKatheist]

@ummmerrrrummm "but either position is a paradox"

if this is the case then why consider the very much less likely supernatural option of god?

what you are suggesting is referred to as "god of the gaps" or "argument from ignorance" where if we cant explain something we shove a go in there as the explanation. BUT the problem with this is every time the human race have done this in the past science has proven the idea wrong.

God is an unneeded paradox to which has ALWAYS been dis proven.

[ummmerrrrummm]

@theUKatheist Why consider it? At the least, it's a very interesting subject. It is kind of a big subject as well and I genuiniely wonder what exactly is going on, as many people do. Remember I'm an agnostic, not a theist.

I'm not making claims of knowledge of God.

I understand the labels you mention and perhaps they fit, but I'm not overly keen on them because they remind me of people that deny science or evolution, which I don't. (cont)

[ummmerrrrummm]

@theUKatheist (cont) What you say about science filling in the gaps is very interesting. I would agree to a large extent. God's of thunder, rain and wind etc. have all been displaced by science.

The question of origins is something that is slightly different. Will science be able to explain this or give us answers? This is the question. I don't write science off, but I also see it as potentially being beyond the explanatory too. Dawkins thinks science will fill this gap (cont)

[ummmerrrrummm]

@theUKatheist I understand your position and I think I'm not too far off, I just leave a little more leeway perhaps.

Dawkins thinks that science may discover a theory of everythinng that fills this gap. I think that this could be where science reaches its limits. So understanding of origins may be described as a point of ignorance, but it may be science will always be ignorant to this understanding.... Thanks for the Krauss thing btw, I think I'm going to try n watch it this weekend.

[theUKatheist]

@ummmerrrrummm okay, and not a problem, I think you will find it very interesting

[ummmerrrrummm]

That was rediculous!! .... That was actually quite a reasonable and interesting discussion and then the bloke suddenly flipped right at the end. What happened?

[theUKatheist]

@ummmerrrrummm it's what religious people do when they have nothing left to back up their belief. They think they know everything and then they know nothing, their brain explodes and anger is the result.

[ummmerrrrummm]

@theUKatheist Crazy. I can sort of understand how he'd feel especially undergoing some of the challenging responses, but he switched so quickly. I'd love it if more people did that on daytime TV in Britain.... proper lull you in to a sensible discussion then lose it!

He did actually have a point, before. Atheists do tend to make a bit of a leap of faith in asserting that there is no God. I understand their position and it's not too unreasonable, but I think there is some merit to this question

[theUKatheist]

@ummmerrrrummm I'm afraid there isn't, I will show you by asking you a simple question... Is it a leap of faith to not believe in unicorns or invisible dragons?

[ummmerrrrummm]

@theUKatheist Hey, no... I understand and I don't think it's too unreasonable, I'm not too far from an atheist myself. I just tend to think that in many cases it might be more scientific to consider oneself agnostic. Not because we believe that there might be an omnipotent Yahweh, but because we simply don't know.

I mean that agnosticism might be a slightly more scientific position to take as an outlook. I totally understand the reasoning behind atheism, I just think to myself, that p ......

[ummmerrrrummm]

@ummmerrrrummm perhaps since we don't know, we are then stepping beyond that and making a hypothesis. This might be a very reasonable hypothesis and perhaps would hold the weight of probability, but since we are not sure, it is not a certainty.

[theUKatheist]

@ummmerrrrummm atheism Is simply to not believe in God, however science leads to the conclusion of there being no God, agnostic doesn't make sense to me as its as add on, not a view point, I'm agnostic atheist. It also makes no sense because you're saying "I don't know"to a question of belief, not a question of knowledge. Eg asking do you believe in unicorns, you know the answer, asking if unicorns exist you can't be sure, they are different questions. You know what you believe :)

[ummmerrrrummm]

@theUKatheist It kind of comes down to definitions a bit. I tend to think that the boundaries of definition between these ideas can be a bit or even very blurred. When I hear definitions like the guy in the vid makes, I suddenly think, well I probably fit the atheist category, but when I've thought about it prior to this I would probably have put myself as an agnostic. I'm not agnostic to unicorns or traditional religion, cos we can test them fairly well, but to the unknown/origins- im agnostic

[theUKatheist]

@ummmerrrrummm if your saying that you dont know the origins of the universe and it "could be a god" then you are an atheist my friend. that is what an atheist is, we dont reject the possibility of a god being the cause of the universe, we just think the possibility is VERY slim. In other words God has always been placed in the gaps of the "unknown" and EVERY time science has eliminated God from the equation and explained it naturally. there is absolutely no reason to think a God did anything.

[ummmerrrrummm]

@theUKatheist I see what you're saying. I think that the definitions can vary from person to person. When I think of the term atheist, I usually think of conviction that a God definitely doesn't exist, whereas an agnostic, doesn't have this conviction and is unsure, or a little less sure than an atheist. That's why I would usually place myself as agnostic. But the definition in the vid and your one is slightly closer to agnosticism than the usual definition of atheist.

[theUKatheist]

@ummmerrrrummm my point is that nothing can ever be disproven to exist. So we have to determine the improbable not the impossible. A God is extremely improbable so we assume it doesn't exist until reason changes. The same goes with any other mythical creature or object. For example the fountain of youth, its extremely improbable but never impossible.

Basically we can determine our reality with probability, we have no reason to believe in anything supernatural. Nothing supernatural can be proven

[ummmerrrrummm]

@theUKatheist Can you say that a god is very improbable though? I'm not making claims of Earthbound supernatural ideas. Let's dismiss those and dismiss the ideas of traditional religion. Just a simple postulation of a god or force of some sort. It might seem improbable and I would probably agree. But really, we literally have no idea. We are like goldfish in a bowl in a house - we can see through the door of the room at the furthest, or perhaps the window. We have no idea about anything further

[theUKatheist]

@ummmerrrrummm true, so why presume a supernatural force or God?

[ImpossibleCertainty]

Absolute certainty is impossible, therefore... ImpossibleCertainty :D

[Lottarandomness]

That ending was so funny and unexpected! :D That was a goood argument, sir.

[skittlessayrawr8]

@UKatheist Not at all. If neither can prove it with 100% certainty then why can’t each person just agree to disagree? So, both points of view need to be taken in to careful consideration to reach any answer. Matt also said that he believed that there is no God. Would that not imply that he has a belief in something, even if he’s not completely certain? And if he does have a belief wouldnt that mean he has faith?

[llkeith77]

@skittlessayrawr8 Many propositions/explanations cannot be disproved; this does not place all suggestions on an equal footing.

The last cookie is gone from the cookie jar.

Did aliens beam down and take it? Has the future CIA harnessed the secrets of time travel and cloaking and sent an agent back to snatch it undetected? Did God do it? How about ferries? Goblins? Angels? Demons?

Or did your brother take it when he dropped by your pad the other day?

Time to deploy Occam's Razor.

[skittlessayrawr8]

@UKatheist When Matt talked about getting rid of all the false beliefs I immediately thought to all the beliefs (even false ones) that are necessary to process in order to achieve a definitive answer. For example if someone said that the center of the earth was made of copper, but my text book claims Iron and Nickel Who is right? Well no one has ever been to the center of the earth. Does that make the other person wrong?

[CaptCamping]

WOW they wanted to hit Matt at the end? LOL

[skittlessayrawr8]

Just because a theist has no answer for a question on the spot, doesn't mean that God doesn't exist. It means they are unprepared and need to read and research more.

[theUKatheist]

@skittlessayrawr8 that is true. so what would you have suggested the answer to be? just curious.

[inarko]

@skittlessayrawr8

Sadly, no. You can not research something that doesn't exist. There is no evidence for god, therefore you can't research it. Sorry, but your argument is invalid.

[dejesusluisx]

Multiple universes is a theory postulated by many physicists. Can you think of a possible universe in which God might exist? If you think God is a possibility, then God exist. The logical deduction comes from the fact that God is an all powerful being, so if God can exist in a possible world, then He would know all about the other worlds and since He has the power, He will move to exists in those too. So if God can exist in a possible world, then God must exist in every possible world.

[atheistram]

@dejesusluisx Might be possible... but is it likely?

[dejesusluisx]

@atheistram Actually the scientific evidence points more towards a conscious entity beginning the universe than any other thing. You can't disprove God even if you see a trillion universes pup-up every second since the BB until this day for every atom of matter in the universe. That's about 10^110 and you need about 10^520 universes for us to have a chance of existence according to string theory. Science makes God more plausible today than 100 yrs ago. Open your eyes.

[RayLiehm]

This is my favorite call ever. It's both really funny, and really sad that after all that cool discussion, it fell apart the way it did at the end.

[mimikawaii7386]

Was the last part a joke? If not, it's really sad

[theUKatheist]

@mimikawaii7386 no, the caller was cornered and couldn't think of a response , knew he was wrong and so decided to make threats, typical theist at work.

[TehViking06]

Wow, and here i was thinking this guy was a good caller up untill the last 10 seconds... XD

[rickygilbert21]

This why simple minded people are easy to figure out... once you outsmarts them and answer all there questions they get all anger over nothing

[yenichromatic]

:) You have so much patience. I admire your patience.

[83redrose83]

And god is comparable to bigfoot: both are rediculous :)

[83redrose83]

The caller apparently has no real idea of what faith is cuz I have none and I'm atheist. Faith comes frm a belief in something, not a nonbelief.

[EmperorSmith]

Hehe. Q:"what would Jesus do?" A: "Punch your fat head in!". Funny, I thought he would do the opposite

[joelarnda]

I'm a Christian and it annoys me when callers like this embarrasss themselves and then go the extra mile to threaten when they are out of persuasive arguements.

Actually this idiot did not know his own position, did not know what he was talking about, and can not answer a single question because he already knows logically inconsistent (which infuriates him) I actually had to laugh, because that is so hypocritcal to any kind of teaching.

[littlelukey1987]

Very well put from the big bloke