Old Tibet was not a Shangri-la 1/3

[sinoples]

I wonder how modern theorists discuss ignorantly the rule of Aristocracy......

Above shall rule Below,  since the Creation, for it started from Heaven, followed by Earth...

Be it readed in second degree....

[jabsondontworry]

to pathetic.. smell's like a bullshit..

[eastern2western]

I think china should just free tibet and let the monks run the whole country. the new modern tibet is no longer the same as the tibet of 1959 and it is much more complicated. after the country goes into chaos, the ccp then can send in its armies for peace guarding services and eliminate all of the rebels.

[SHUTUPNOOB654]

@PoketsOfagenius Don't try acting like you are peaceful and loving, act with truth. Be who you really are. You aren't fooling anyone. You are the one being brainwashed. And even more hilarious is, you are trying to brainwash people yourself, after you yourself have been brainwashed.

[SHUTUPNOOB654]

@PoketsOfagenius Amazing. I usually see through anyone's words. It's easy to tell when you said ''love to all'' and how you mention god. AND how you mention you are no living god. By saying that, I can tell that you are saying that you expect people to think of you as one. So easy to see right through your lies. China's leaders were empowered by the Chinese people. And the Tibetan government was empowered through force. There are 2 sides to this argument, and you clearly take CIA's side.

[beavisCS]

95% of the people work for the 5% owners who own the land and let the people work for them! WHAT is the difference to us today? come on tell me the difference!! no difference at all! we got our riches who are protected by the pupet politics ( in the ancient time called monks) who tells the stupid people what to do!

[johannsobieski]

i need no god's !!! to you thing all those stupid people have seen god!! this stupid gods??? i live for myself not for the system, by the way this system is after the people "get rid" of religion, one of the best the world has known! you listen to those schmuck, dressed weird, act and behave weird and telling me i am brainwashed? to i go town on my stomach, pray, kiss stones or pictures and waste time with stupid things??? to i believe in sai baba, benny hinn, mohamed etc. ???

[johannsobieski]

@PoketsOfagenius

they did it with the monk(eys) !!! satisfied me!

[pi9lab]

FREE TIBET

[lukebccb]

@pi9lab: FREE KASHMIR TOO....... right "pi9lab"?

[S1587915G]

Looks like the lamas of old Tibet just hadn't lived up to their high calling as living examples of the Buddha's teachings.

[ikhamo]

shangrilla was a myth 

[JeannotQc]

Chineese propaganda.

China was also oppressive in a mediaval way to it's people before the revolution.

And it's cultural revolution culturally enslave its population by making them ignorant of their own history, as you can see here

[goog2k]

Let the Tibetan people VOTE!!!

If they were so terribly repressed they would welcome their Chinese "Liberators"

Duhh???

What a bunch of lies and propaganda.

[goog2k]

Let the Tibetan people VOTE!!!

If they were so terribly repressed they would welcome their Chinese "Liberators"

Duhh???

What a bunch of lies and propaganda.

[meleszenawi1111]

Tibet sucked back then the only reason it has no collapsed is because the chinese came in and economically developed it.

[juliaisafilmbuff123]

I agree that what's going on in Tibet now is sad, but before China came it was WORSE.

[lhakylou]

95% of China's wealth today is controlled by 0.3% of the population. The rest all work for them. So according to your theory, more than a billion people in China are serfs and slaves. So may be the world should Liberate the Chinese and we will have a free Tibet along the way.

[hosleon]

Do the Tibetans really get treated better than in the past? IN the past, they r slaves got no paid for their work and could be killed at will. no house to live in. no property to possess....

[456inthemix]

peaceful liberation? Don't make me laugh

[Ganeschar]

So china was too, whats new?

[GrantZ90]

Oh and old Tibet certainly wasn't peaceful. It was a brutal and unequal system, as I'm sure this documentary brings up. (I haven't watched it yet tbh)

[GrantZ90]

Also another point: Do you seriously think that reincarnation is the best way to choose a leader?!

[Popotao]

"Do you seriously think that reecarnation is the best way to choose a leader?"

Well, at least they've chosen a leader, unlike the chinese CCP's dictatorship!

[GrantZ90]

"Well, at least they've chosen a leader, unlike the chinese CCP's dictatorship!"

Uh.. No they didn't. It was the high-priests that picked the new Dalai Lama. You have to understand that the old Tibetan society was a feudal system where the priests and the Dalai Lama ruled the people with an iron fist. The people were basically slaves and there was a wide array of punishments for those who did not obey the aristocrats.

[GrantZ90]

Also the name of the communist party is quite misleading since modern day China is certainly not a communist country. In fact it reminds more of Reagan-period US than anything else.

Now, modern day China certainly isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination but I'd probably argue that it beats the old Tibetan system of feudalism. Not necessarily by much, but at least by a little.

[Popotao]

Yeah, except for the exagerated parts, Tibet was kinda like you described.

Which doesn't mean they deserve to be invaded!

BTW, China was also much like that before Mao took power, and still some years after 1950.

Besides, I doubt Tibet would be the same as one century ago if it had remain independent, and even if it did, chinese would have nothing to do with it....

[GrantZ90]

Well Tibet had the advantage of the servants not actually counted as slaves afaik, so even the abolishment of slavery wouldn't have had any effect on the system. On top of that Tibet being a very isolated country with a conservative priesthood I wouldn't count on too big reformations.

The claim about China being like Tibet is interesting. Is there some good source I could read about this? I went really quickly through Wikipedia, but had problems finding anything helpful on the subject. (cont.)

[GrantZ90]

(continued)I'll go look into it after writing this comment, but help would still be greatly appreciated.

The reason for China wanting Tibet is because it offers an excellent defensive buffer towards the Himalayas and I'm not sure if I can condemn the invasion. I mean China did what they had to to better defend their country and if that's an action so despicable then I'd have to condemn every invasion ever to have taken place.(continues)

[GrantZ90]

(continued)We also have to remember that Tibet was a part of China for over a hundred years before the Brits invaded Tibet in 1904 (I think).

TBH I see no good reason for why China should just give Tibet up, other than that the Tibetan people want independence, but then again I can't support racial segregation either since that poses a moral hazard.

[Popotao]

First of all I must state that your comments mix at least three different points of view, confusing me a bit. It gets controverted in some points.

If you want me to give references that prove China was a rural semifeudal society based on ancient religious structures, well it's just not gonna happen.

When I said China was much like Tibet, I meant about the way of life, public wellfare and, specially, quality of life, which was actually worst in most of China than in Tibet...

[GrantZ90]

I've tried to stay fairly consistent with my views, so I'm not sure which POVs I'm mixing. Now I'm sure my style of writing might differ especially from my comments 5 months back, but I still see nothing that would make my position logically incoherent.

I have no problem with the claim that Tibetans and the Chinese had largely the same quality of life, although I find the claim that the Chinese had it worse than the Tibetans interesting. How exactly has this information been induced/deduced?

[Popotao]

National security was far from being the main chinese interest in Tibet.

And supporting chinese control over Tibet because it was once ruled by China is like supporting portuguese control over Brazil because Portugal colonized it.

[Popotao]

Actually, the second example would be even more coherent, since brazilian and portuguese nationalities can easily mix or confound with each other, which's not the case between tibetan and chinese ones.

[GrantZ90]

"Actually, the second example would be even more c....tween tibetan and chinese ones."

How so? Is there some genetic barrier I'm not aware of? I'm assuming you meant culturally, in which case the reason for this is exactly those years of colonization.

[GrantZ90]

"National security was far from being the main chinese interest in Tibet."

What then exactly was the main interest?

"And supporting chinese control over Tibet beca...over Brazil because Portugal colonized it."

That's a good counter-argument. I'll leave that argument there for what it's worth, after all it wasn't exactly any of my main arguments. Now my question of course here would be then, why would Tibet deserve to be independent as opposed to the status quo?

[Popotao]

Arguing the chinese invasion of Tibet was a matter of national security is ridiculous! Was Tibet a big threat to chinese independence!? XD

Regionally, Tibet would act as a buffer state, assuring peace between China and India, for example.

It's like saying Russia needs to invade Finland to protect its borders. Following this line of thought, a country should invade all of its bordering countries in order to preserve its own safety.

[GrantZ90]

"Regionally, Tibet...China and India, for example."

So this isn't a matter of national security? Just fyi I wasn't arguing that Tibet is the security issue, but that it has an excellent strategical position.

It's all about weighing the pros and cons. If Russia invaded Finland today it would be political suicide. It was different during the 2nd WW when Finland actually posed a serious strategical threat to the CCCP. Nowadays Russians have more to lose than to gain when it comes to Finland.

[Popotao]

When you say there's "no good reason why China should give Tibet up" you must remember that only the tibetans have something to give up in this story, starting by national affirmation, soberany and their independence.

You know, the UN Chart of Algiers assure the tibetans rights to national self-determination, autonomy and sovereignty.

[GrantZ90]

"You know, the UN Chart of Algiers...sovereignty."

I couldn't find any information on this chart, so I'd greatly appreciate if you could direct me to a source. I know they do have some degree of autonomy in Tibet, but that some document entitles them to sovereignty? Haven't heard about that.

"When...independence."

I'm not saying that they're not allowed to want independence. I'm saying that China has no moral obligation to provide Tibet with that.

[Popotao]

Maybe you couldn't find it because you just looked in Wikipedia! Sorry, I couldn't resist...; )

The Chart of Algiers is a generic document. It does not refer specifically nor directly to Tibet. But it traces some standards on national determination and the "rights of the peoples". It's also known as the (Universal) Declaration of the Peoples' Rights, do not mistake with "Human Rights".

I guess I can send you a couple of links if you speak portuguese.

[Popotao]

By the way:

1.Yes, of course I was talking about culture, not 'blood'.

2.Therefore it should never have been invaded in first place, Tibet deserves independence because, from what I know, most tibetans want it, including almost all the expatriates.

3.The invasion of Tibet is not backgrounded on any international law or special agreement.

Well, since you just keep rebutting my arguments without replacing by your own, I'll stop this childish discussion. Have fun.

[GrantZ90]

I think you've misjudged my intentions for this discussion. My goal was never to win some argument here just get closer to what is true. I would hardly consider that childish.

I'll admit when I'm wrong and I did it already once. In fact I'm not exactly sure where I should have given you more ground, but I'll try here.

1. Isn't the years spent as a part of Portugal not the reason for why Brazil and Portugal are more compatible with each other? (tbc)

[GrantZ90]

2. There are many places in the world that want independence, but unfortunately one can't always get what one wants. It's very unclear how many Tibetans actually want independence, since we often hear only the voices of the exiles. I've heard that there is another pov also among the Tibetans which is that they want more autonomy while not actually demanding independence. I see this as no problem and think China should deliver. I think Dalai Lama stands behind this as well if I remember correctly

[GrantZ90]

(co)3. I'll gladly admit that it was an illegitimate invasion, however I see it more as an "liberation" from the feudalistic system. Might not have been a huge step forward, but at least it was a small step in the right direction.

I checked on the international agreements and there seem to be things that are unclear as to how they should be interpreted.

But, whatever. I actually found an excellent site where this had been debated at length and much more deeply. I'll link you to it if you want.

[GrantZ90]

I didn't look into Wikipedia about this, but googled it and found no useful information. You could just have used that other name and I would have had a hunch about it. I'm sure I'll be able to find something on this in English since my skills in Portuguese are quite basic and are mainly derived from my basic skills in Spanish. =)

[4nH3r00]

so you, an American from ur tone; thinks that just by watching fox news everyday makes you more knowledgeable about a group of people who lives in China than the Chinese, whose congress tibetan leaders are a part of? it's exactly this kind of arrogance that makes the world hate americans. you have never done any research on tibet, and most likely never will. but yet you feel you know more about them simply because Chinese media is suppressed. Media is hype, it can't replace books and history.

[king9876543210012345]

楼下的!脑袋被门夹了?

[AirHendrix91]

FREE TIBET!

They're peaceful people, come on!

[sunf82]

free你妈个蛋.起哄的无知傻逼们

[Eddy1701]

Talk about shameless propaganda, ignoring the inconvenient fact of Chinese dictatorship.

[GrantZ90]

Sure, there's an earthly dictatorship in China, but if the Dalai Lama had his way, then there would be a godly dictatorship in Tibet. That includes reinstating the class system.

No one is arguing that the Chinese system wouldn't have flaws. The argument is that it would be even worse with the feodal/godking system.

I recommend that you read "The Tibet Myth" written by Michael Parenti. It's an article that can be read for no cost at his site. Very educational.

[chefgrad]

This "old Tibetan system" reminds me of almost every country in the world... Modern day China being one of the largest ;)

[4nH3r00]

It's sad to see how fellow americans are so ignorant they pay $5000 a ticket to go see the da lai lama. yes the Chinese government violates human rights, yes it oppresses freedom, everyone knows this. but at the VERY LEAST, their citizens get treated like humans, and the majority of China's citizens are satisfied with their government, they are HAPPY! (as you can see from the 2008 olymplics). tibet rule before China took over was SLAVERY! do you prefer a world of controlled-freedom or NONE!

[UsTube]

very true....all these ignorant free tibet people think theyre activists that are doing good....they cannot be more wrong

[PoppinOtang]

eat a cock UsTube

[anfenn]

>> VERY LEAST, their citizens get treated like humans,

But that's the problem. They DON'T get treated like humans. How many Tibetan women have had forced abortions, forced vasectomies?

You claim that everyone is so ignorant but the only ignorance I see is your own as you fail to realise the truth, it's not about CHINESE people being happy with their government, it's about TIBETAN people.

[sunf82]

sound like you've been to tibet; gtfo.

[GrantZ90]

Ok, so you wanna play the racial separatism game? My question is: What would you do to make things better?

Just be careful, so that you don't walk into any logical traps while writing...

[halfmanhalfamazing28]

im very surprised at how a democratic people like the americans can't even let a country justify why it took another country over. the united states certainly did a good job of justifying an invasion of iraq. the iraqis would be far better off without the us "libration" of the country.

[maxownsworld]

Wow China defending it's holding in Tibet? You're taking your news from the country that doesn't have freedom of speech?

Seriously?

[Canadianhome]

I think Tibet should be much better off with China than try to be independent. Most people will be slaved again if Da La Lama go back there~ He is a fake religion saint and want to be in power to rule the area. He talks about human right but did even worst thing when he was young (Slaves his people)~ Fake Da la Lama~

[janitormopmop]

Tibet is just like Mexico they were "peaceful and awesome" and then they got conquered. Although no Americans care about mexico they complain about mexicands in LA and then go support Tibet. Hypocrites get over it it was like 50 years ago.

[hotmaledotcome]

Beware of CCTV.....

[roht5]

Fact of the matter is, who gives a crap about whether Tibet is part of China or not. The Hans still don't know jack shit about the Tibetans and their culture,and they really don't seem interested in it either. They just want the ang-mo to invest more money in their coffers.

[GreenyPoop]

peaceful liberation of 1951? was it really peaceful? the Chinese wanted to expand their communist ideology and territory. Mao said everything of the past traditions is feudal. Burial ceremony, Confucianism, martial arts, nature. Today it is easy for the chinese government to claim that Tibet is feudal because they really don't know Tibet culture.

[joeyfotofr]

This is very friendly to the point of view of Chinese Communist thugs and invaders. While not entirely false it is set up to justify and unmitigatedly evil invasion and cultural desecration. Typical communist class-warfare horse-shit with some very nice footage of old Tibet.

[goat414]

China is bad as hell and the Lama rule was just as bad, you don't have to defend someone, it is ok to say like me, both are assholes!

[Dreams2Snow]

wellll yes there are human rights issues in china but... does it really make sense to go back to the slavery days?

[goat414]

No,but when did i ever say i supported tibet?

[iamlumin]

Part II - The whole region to the East of that being the country of Great China and the whole region to the West being assuredly the country of Great Tibet, from either side there shall be no hostile invasion, no seizure of territory... and in order that this agreement establishing a great era when Tibetans shall be happy in Tibet and Chinese shall be happy in China shall never be changed, the Three Jewels, the body of Saints, the sun and the moon, planets and stars have been invoked as witness.

[iamlumin]

Part I - In 821 China and Tibet ended almost 200 years of fighting. Treaty is engraved on three stone pillars. One outside of Chinese Emperor's Palace, one on border between the two countries and one in Lhasa, Tibet. The treat reads in part: Both Tibet and China shall keep the country and frontiers of which they are now possessed.

[gbmkhm01]

Well,821,too far from us.

[emceemike]

Part 2: treaty of vesaille.