Climbing Tools: Munter Hitch / tyed off Munter

[crornel]

0:20

[crornel]

0:11



[paulosemifusa]

Very nice...very clean...^^ easy to andestand

[21beelzebub]

think all possibility to save the tree before you finally desided to cut it down!! because it take decades or more before our next generation saw a huge tree and another virgin forest!!! thumbs up it you agree! tnx

[Wiegieboard]

Yay! This is how I learned :) I also use it to abseil occasionally

[furgeszarvas57]

Nem egy piti megoldás

[Mr4UVA4OK]

proideno

[TheExtremetree]

I have rapelled with this knot everyday for over 15 years,.

[cheesypasta]

@TheExtremetree could you tell me more about that; does it damage the rope much? do you see it as an equal to having a belay device? thanks.

[TheExtremetree]

@cheesypasta I would say rope on rope friction would cause more damage to rope than rope on device. Keep in mind, I am doing short 50 to 60 feet rappelling..

[cheesypasta]

@TheExtremetree thats great thanks for your help

[rainmechanic]

Could you use a Monster Munter for fast descents like rappelling? YOu pointed out in your Video on the monster Munter that it does not put twists in the line like a single munter hitch. Basically could you use the Monster Munter in every situation where you would use a Munter hitch?

Newbie so if this sounds like a dumb question i appologize. People who claim to be experts have told me if i want to practice rappelling i MUST use a figure 8 rescue descender or ill fry the rope

[mikebarter387]

@rainmechanic probely not a great application as a rappel device. Think about a carabiner brake if your improvising a rap system. Those experts don't really know what they are talking about so don't let them bamboozel you. Figure 8 is a poor rap device that was a lot more common 20 + years ago. Stitch plate devices work a lot better ( Petzel Reverso , etc...) Let them talk their shit talk but now you know they ain't all that.

The Mike

[beholderlt]

@mikebarter387 for my type of activities I prefer figure 8 to a reverso as a rapp device. main reasons being that it takes forever to get static rope into a reverso and it puts too much friction if the rope is thicker (making fast descent impossible). we have mountain technique competitions where not making mistakes and being fast is the goal. figure 8 does twist the rope but that's ok in a controlled enviroment in my opinion. reverso is my preferred belay device though.

[mikebarter387]

@beholderlt All makes perfect sense to me.

[beholderlt]

@mikebarter387 good to hear that. i also work in an amusement park where we have obstacles in height and often we have to help children out get up by putting our weight into the rope, which involves taking out a lot of slack quickly. this is a toprope situation, so in most cases high forces won't be generated. by the way, by just writing at the moment i realised that i should get a rounder biner which should work better(i think the one i use binds the rope a bit so it doesn't work that smoothly)

[mikebarter387]

@rainmechanic The Monster munter works great for lowers off a anchor but that is where it shines. Never used it for anything else.

[vkelsov]

@rainmechanic I've used a regular atc to double rope... no problems, lot of heat though.

[alzenauscouter]

Der munter hitch, in Deutschland auch Halbmastwurf genannt, ist falsch herum in den Karabiner eingehängt!!

Das auszugebende Seil darf niemals über die Öffnung laufen!

Läuft das Seil unter Last über den Schraubverschluss, kann sich dieser aufdrehen und der Schnapper öffnen - lebensgefährlich, da dadurch plötzlich keine Reibung mehr vorhanden ist und das Seil "lose" durch den Karabiner läuft.

Diesen gravierenden Fehler machen aber leider ca 80% der Kletterer, da sie keine Ahnung haben!

[Lordfiller]

A "munter Hitch" Is also known as a "Italian Hitch"

Also Never thought of using a carb onto the load.

[ripsin1]

It can put twists in the rope but it is a very strong belay. It has more stoping power than an ATC but again the twists in the rope can get annoying.

[mikebarter387]

@ripsin1 it doesn't have anywhere close to the stopping power of a ATC. 

[terbucj]

1. one is wrong

[ripsin1]

your beaner's gate is on the wrong side when the gate is open the body of the beaner should be facing up not down. that is so you dont accidentally unclick your rope.

[mikebarter387]

Sorry that is not true.

[burnsbowman507]

@mikebarter387 actually it is true... sorry.

[JamesPliny]

I think Munter means "lively" in German, but I'm not sure. It is a lively knot because it quickly moves.

[rossdabossda2k6]

where i come from munter is used to describe an ugly person

[oblivion0317]

haha ty ive been looking for a way to do this with out the stupid belay forever

[pinkskud]

in the UK this is more commanly called an Italian hitch.

i think the proper name is rolling hitch, but its called "Italian hitch because of its ability to change sides and direction

[mikebarter387]

Yeh but the hitch remains useful and that I believe is why we call it anything but the Italian hitch.

[Ranger3172]

in the army we call that the "munter mule" knot. you should capture the running end when tying the final overhand.

[Taffy1974]

We used to tie off on the back bar of the gate..we do it this way now..

[weeble205]

point of caution. at 0:24 i hope you can see the risk of clipping the munter with the brake line on the gate side of the beaner. as you are demonstrating the "munter shift" you can see the brake line run along the gate. if the brake line actually touches the gate while in the lowering mode it will unscrew the lock.

always clip a munter with the brake line away from the gate.

[weeble205]

fyi: at 1:07 you can clearly see a properly clipped munter.

[Taffy1974]

or commonly known as an "Italian hitch" :-)

[AlpineStart78]

It should be noted the the Munter will put some fierce twists in your rope if you do not keep the brake and load strands parallel while feeding and taking in slack. This includes rappelling with it (not recommended), as the brake position would be "up" as opposed to the tradition "down" position.

[mikebarter387]

Thanks that is worth noting and have added your comment to video.

[Djpatbass]

thanks men :))

[wasabitobiko]

Mike.. keep up the great work. I really appreciate the 'old school' approach you use to demonstrate basic mountaineering skills. With all the new devices on the market, I tend to forget the basics. It's always good to refresh, re-educate and practice fundamentals.

Cheers!

[Graiskye]

Screw all the noobs, they know nothing. YT is full of so called experts and they are ready to tear anyone apart for their own self gratification. Problem is 99% of the time they are wrong.

Thanks for the great demo of the Muenter 'hitch'

Im an arborist and always interested in different ways to do things.

Oh yeah I laugh at the gear heads too, I mean tree climbers with 20 'biners hanging of their belt, 3/4 of them having never been opened aside from attaching them to the belt. Hilarious.

[davidcross30]

nice mike I tie mine off slightly differently to yours but it is good to see another way to do it.

I often use this for the static line on an ab tower that way i can release it if i need to to lower somome down if they freeze

[Crazy3duardo]

This node is called dinamic node, can be used to rappel and is safety...

[TheGarrethoc]

use a fucking figure of 8 man!!

[mikebarter387]

What if you don't have one say's my wife

[JrSAR101]

if u use that in SAR in B.C. you'll get yelled at. too many times has it not worked

[maximatron]

Can this be used to repel someone down a cliff ? Like with a carabiner attached to a tree with straps ?

And also it seams, being able to use this both ways, you could actually (if needed) get him up a little bit ? if he can pull himself up that is....

[mikebarter387]

I personally have lowered hundreds of times like this. ( more like thousands but not sure of the actual numbers.) It is also VERY common for me to use a munter off the anchor as the second is climbing. This is why I try to construct my anchor at shoulder level or higher. It is a very common and usefull belay hitch (can't say knot as the techno weenies will jump on that and it shows the ignorance I have of my craft. That is the long answer the short would have been "yes"

[vraddict]

I personally don't recommend using this as a rappel with the exception of emergency.. Lowering someone is okay. The main issue is that nylon has a very low melting point and the friction created in fast rappelling could damage the rope.

[maximatron]

There is no friction on the rope as it is a constantly moving part that goes though the carabiner, the only negative side is that it would twist the rope. But as mike stated, it seems like a common way to rappel someone-- the first time I saw this is from Opera Vertical video, part 3.

Thanks to Wikipedia :)

[Dreampanos]

Well the same thing happens if you belay through a branch of a tree or through a bolt without a carabiner... even in a handle-like hole on the rock.. of course there is friction on the rope.. the fact is that heat is produced more rapidly and at higher temperatures when rope is in friction with rope and that heat is stored on the carabiner.. that contributes in the faster degration of the rope and of course a greater danger to your life... well in case of emergency is better than nothing

[mikebarter387]

Actually your wrong. Edilrid did some pretty extensive testing using cars to pull ropes through rap devices with the intention of creating heat to damage and break your rope. Not a easy thing to get a device up and over 200 deg, which is where they START to get damaged. Google it the videos are quite good.

[jmk1a1]

Doesn't the Munter Hitch put undue damage on the rope with nylon rubbing on nylon? I'm just a novice, but it seems like it would. Just curious.

[mikebarter387]

Actually your wrong. Edilrid did some pretty extensive testing using cars to pull ropes through rap devices with the intention of creating heat to damage and break your rope. Not a easy thing to get a device up and over 200 deg, which is where they START to get damaged. Google it the videos are quite good.

[jmk1a1]

@mikebarter387

Thanks. I was just wondering if it would fray over time or rub off the dry coating. I'm just a beginner, but I'll google some vids and check it out.

[WuZei]

@mikebarter387 Do you have any published writing on this? I'm curious because as a technical rope rescuer, I've personally seen rope wore do to using a munter hitch. Why not just use a prusik? Prusik cord is very cheap and works very well.

[littlelexicooper]

@WuZei wouldn't the prusik cause the same, if not more wear on ropes?

[Cobra0911]

@mikebarter387

After closely looking at how this system works that sounds entirely true! The load is being displaced on the beaner entirely NOT on the nylon vs. nylon part of the hitch. Then when the load side is reversed the hitch automatically prevents rubbing by flipping. I do believe that is the mechanics of the Munter.

[Schnoblauch]

@jmk1a1 on a long time using munter Hitch it will eventually damage the rope because of the friction......but u forgot the fact, that the friction is only high at the parts of the rope, where it touches......and when u use it, the rope will run through, so the "touching parts" of the rope always change.....i hope, i could help you ^^

[mikebarter387]

I don't think the friction is a issue

[wolfinside]

Great video, I am new to rappelling and appreciate the great training!

[aurelrica]

what is a "belay" device? i've never seen one of thies. i only use a rope and a safety belt with 6 points all time at work maybe because i don't trust mecanical devices.

i don't save people but i wheld, put screws and other things only tied with a rope and man i just love it when is no other way to do it.

[ItsMeForAllYouKnow]

Betcha Joe Simpson wishes Simon knew how to make a Munter Hitch.....

[watson946]

Yeah, all he had to contend with was: frostbite, a collapsing bucket belay and severe exposure/exhaustion. Maybe Joe could've ascended the rope with a prusik, oh hang on, he was in trouble too.

[mikebarter387]

sorry I thought the relicater was what made food on the enterpise

[metacarpal74]

this vid was spot on.

[font9a]

you would only tie off the munter after at *least* hip belaying your load.

then you'd clove hitch a rats nest of bomber anchors and lower your partner/poop tube.

[mikebarter387]

Where do you get this crap from. I am guessing that you are a fireman or one of those volunteer rescue weenies.

It's obvious you have limited experience and a low self esteme.

[ObamaBinLaden13]

Has anyone had any trouble with this belay knot using a non-locking carabineer?

[mikebarter387]

a 80 yea old non-climbing widow from the north of Scotland f

seems to be having a bit of trouble with that exact thing

[nawataipan]

well done. Thanks

[blaaarrrgghh]

Mike you rock.

To echo what someone else already said, is there any way to keep the rope from kinking all to hell when using this knot?

Oh and nineninefour, go fuck yourself.

[coyotebutelo]

Lo veo claro, aqui le llamamos nudo dinamico, gracias.

[ZombieDean]

Thanks! Great demo. Been studying CMC manual before a tech rescue course and it's so much easier when you can see someone make the knots.

[aurelrica]

after 1 day in the field you'll do it with 1 hand...

[extremetrees]

I sometimes use this knot daily. Nice overhand knot to finish it. Thanks

[mrwashyburried]

Ausgezeichtnete Arbeit, Danke

[philytheking]

i have been looking for something like this this will be verry usefull thank you!

[cowoo508]

Good lesson and good video detail. Thanks!

[dmosier]

this is a must know for all climbers.

I am still amazed at the number of climbers who do not know this knot

[flyboy339745]

I used to use this knot all the time before I got spare belay devices, but the knot twists the rope too much. Any suggestions about hop to prevent that?

oh and "nineninefour" - give him mike a break. He's teaching a valuable lesson that could be the difference between life and death. What are you doing?

[Krekkertje]

I'd surely want to use a locking biner for securing off the slip knot. This ordinary carabiner can be very very easily unclipped.

[mikebarter387]

We could buy a pad lock and throw away the key. If you are talking about the carabiner that is at the end of the tye off I think a regular biner will be enough. At some point we have to say WHEN. The chances of the tye off failing is slim, chances of the biner coming undone then the tye off slipping well....

[mikebarter387]

I will keep teaching climbing and you can keep teaching english. Never the two shall meet (hopefully)

[fuzzball853]

Get a fucking life professor

[fuzzball853]

directed to nineninefour not mikebarter

[OdayJuarez]

This and the prussik are must know for any serious climber. 5 stars.

[threelegduck]

i will check out more - i am most interested in "pro" what is "pro" use for, and also what sort of stuff to bring for serious backpack expedition

[mikebarter387]

By "PRO" do you mean protection. Your right I haven't covered pro or gear placement but can if you like. Give me a couple days.

Joe

[threelegduck]

that's great - take your time. maybe it's another subject, but i'm especially interested in what minimum gear to bring on week long trip into uncharted territory where you _might_ need to climb 8-10 meters or so (topo says "really steep", but not enough info). also useful is what might be needed to safely rappel down small cliff to take route out on other side of a peak you just hiked.

[madaboutknots]

Nice "Climbing Tools" series.

Might want to inform people that to stop or break the fall using this knot, you pull forwards instead of towards the hip.

[mikebarter387]

Good point, hopefully they can figure that out but it would have been good to add.

[huyiy]

well any hardware will not be damaged unless dropped from at least 5 feet.. (carabiner, atc, gri2x, etc.) and why do you think the munter hitch isnt allowed in most of the climbing gyms today? because it ruins the rope a lot faster. dont get me wrong, if i HAD to use the munter hitch, i would.. and as the rope runs it always rubs the sheath, every single second.. and i can tell you this, in my many years of climbing, i never dropped an atc, not once...

[mikebarter387]

I agree it would be hard to damage a belay device in a climbing gym scenario. What about 2000' feet off the deck still going to pick it up and use it? However I seldom carry an atc mountaineering. A climbing gym which sounds like your home crib is a completely diffrent scenario. Gyms I suspect like the ATC and Grigri are the tools of choice for obvious reasons. One being the complexity of making a munter and the likelyhood of error. Yes the nylon runs on nylon but not on the same place.

[mikebarter387]

The reason for adding the Munter is to add tools to the climbers quiver. You can see we are more the mountianeering, wall climbing, icefall type guides and leave climbing gymsto those who cannot access the big hills as easily. We certianly are not suggesting that gym climbers use the munter. But it is handy when belaying over a bergshrund or lowering clients over a difficult section. When weight is a concern the belay device is one of the first things to go.

Joe

[huyiy]

yea this rope damages the sheath a lot since the rope itself rubs against the itself all the way thru since is runs all the way when belaying.. taking up slack and lowering still has lots of friction all thru out the rope.. but if i use a belay device i only bring two equipments, a carabiner and an atc. ultra light and cheap, rope lasts longer and lesser risks of core damage and sheath damage.

[mikebarter387]

Sorry but it does not damage the sheath. It would if the rope ran over the same place but in a munter knot it runs over the sheath for a nano second then moves on. While belaying there is no weight so there is no friction. Your right on thinking that nylon on nylon is a bad thing. That is why we never lower anyone thru slings or webbing. It would melt the the sling in a few meters

[mikebarter387]

It is not the perfect belay but is is not dangerous as you suggest. Now what if you dropped your ATC which happens now and then. We suggest that you know this knot as it is common to use in rescue scenarios. I am actually surprised by the number of germans who use this as their primary belay tool. Perhaps they think that Munter actually invented this knot but in reality a Italian came up with this friction knot. You will not find a single case of a damaged rope from this knot.

[rockscoop]

that would be why this knot is called an 'italian hitch' munter? where did that come from anyway?

[mikebarter387]

Could you please come up with some sort of data or proof before scaring the people who are just starting out. It is obvious that you both have limited experience in mountaineering. There are better mechanical devices that work for a sport climbing scenario. However I am the expert here, not you, so we will go with my final word till you come up with a some examples of damage.

Thanks for your input though. I am sure that there must be others thinking the same thing not just you two.

Joe

[mikebarter387]

I am curious as to what you think causes the damage. Is it nylon on nylon? This is a knot that has been around for some time and tis is the first I have heard of permant damage. Could you please explain further.

Thanks

Joe

[UniSaarland]

this nod damages the rope a lot

[mikebarter387]

It not that it damages the rope so much as it causes twists becauses it forcesthe zor s shape of the inner core of the rope to pig tail. I am curious what you mean by damage. damage to the mantle or to the core? What causes the Damage? Do you think it is nylon running on nylon. This knot has been around for quite awhile