Neuroscience and Free Will - Libet's Experiment

[ChrisTomo50]

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT 200 MILI SECONDS HERE. ONE WOULD ASSUME THIS IS THE TIME TAKEN FOR YOUR BRAIN TO SND A SIGNAL THROUGH YOUR NERVIOUS SYSTEM AND INTO YOUR MUSCLE TISSUE TO PRESS THE KEY ON THE KEYBOARD AND SEND AN ELECTRIC IMPULSE THROUGH ALL THE COMPUTER CHIPS. iF THIS ISNT THE CASE THEN THIS VIDEO DOSENT REALLY EXPLAIN THE CONCEPT IN A CONVINSING WAY :-)

[gokulmuthu]

Surely, there should be much more variations of the experiments conducted to decide. This experiment alone cannot decide anything.

[Muffinfordinner]

The experiment does not indicate if there were any false positives. Did brain activity build up when she did not press the button?

[Muffinfordinner]

How do we make this argument against freewill based on this experiment without resorting to the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy?

[DrakeVerde]

Just because there was brain activity doesnt mean she doesnt have free will

[lgsoltek]

I came to this video via the novel "How to Live Safely in a Science Fictional Universe"...

[ogfamethrowa]

Like eddievanberkel says, I think the main thing being missed here is that it's not a question of whether her brain made her do anything, it's a question of whether or not the conscious decision to make a choice has any bearing. Libet said there is potential for a rather 'free won't', meaning we can deny the urges/impulses of the unconscious and not do what it's telling us to do. But as for making the decision to DO something itself, it seems the unconscious IS the controller.

[caucasianal]

@ogfamethrowa You're making a distinction between "free will" and "free won't" without a discernible difference. My free choice to deny an urge/impulse of the unconscious ("free won't") is also my free choice to continue doing whatever I'm doing ("free will").

[ogfamethrowa]

@caucasianal I don't really believe in the free won't though, lol. I don't really think we have free will also, but I don't think it's a deterministic world either - in that we cannot predict what will happen the next moment

[coleus]

Is it just me or did she use the number 33? lol, fail.

[MrYousafBajwa]

INTRO PHILO WOOT WOOT

[mastarastafu]

@MrYousafBajwa do you go the the University of Guelph by any chance?

[eddievanberkel]

There is a problem with this video, something crucial is not made clear. The subject has to note what number the clocked showed when she is conscious of her decision to press the btton. Then it is clear how impressive this video is. If the subject notes 30 as the time at whcih she felt the urge to press the button, the readiness potential has started to build up 2000 ms before. Meaning, that the brains have already taken the decision before one has taken a conscious decision.

[JLeeMagnetic]

I thought this experiment was impressive at first. But then i realized of course there is going to brain activity in anything you choose. Was there supposed to be no activity when a decision is made? Then we would be dead..

[stepandstepandstep]

I wanted to know further procedure of Libet's experiment . I got it by this video.

I have suspected accuracy of subjective reporting of awareness timing of his/her will.

[Heffey02]

If this shows we may not choose to move, then is what is to be said about choosing NOT to move? Is that not free will?

[junzenology]

Doesn't it still count as her making the decision if there are not other factors causing her brain to press the buttons before she is conscious of the urge?

[erasmusso]

I believe that we don't have free will because all our decisions are influenced by our values, by society, by our friends and family, by the environment, etc, but I don't see how can this experiment prove anything. It only proves that the subconscious mind is faster than the reflexes required to push the button...

[Holowachuk]

She only makes the decision when to push and not if.

[theocean1973]

Maybe these experiments dont rule out freewill, but here's what does: Where do your choices come from? They come from your decisive thoughts. Okay, now, where do your thoughts come from? They seem to come from nowhere and you do not choose your thoughts. There is no freely willing *you* that reaches into your brain to pull out thoughts. No thinking thing can have freewill because thought cant be voluntary. Just accept the truth, already. Its hard, I went through it, but you'll get used to it.

[sam321b]

i do decide what i want to do but i am my brain, but i (my brain) is determinded by genes and experiences.

[Celephais42]

Ack wrong fallacy.

Designed for confirmation bias?

Dunno

[Celephais42]

Please sit and passively wait for your "will" to cause you to push the button.

See there is no free agency.

Can't believe supposed skeptics don't see that this experiment poisons the well.

[PuraVid4]

The action of pushing a button doesn't equal the decision to push the button. There are plenty of action potentials that the EEG records already.

[fatsomamacheese]

This experiment is silly. It is assuming "making a decision" is an instantaneous activity, therefore any brain activity before hand (even if it's a miniscule) is not a part of said willful decision.

[awhoergek]

Feel the conscious will? What an abstract concept is that? How are you supposed to FEEL your conscious will? You can't conclude anything from this....

[IBMua]

Pretty stupid, or at least very old-time, "but"s the guy is telling. Obviously, YOU are your BRAIN. You THINK if you should do something. Along with thinking HOW to do it.

The most useful application of this experiment is to help the ignorant ones convert to atheism.

[IBMua]

Pretty stupid, or at least very old-time, "but"s the guy is telling. Obviously, YOU are your BRAIN. You THINK if you should do something. Along with thinking HOW to do it.

[estragon9]

interesting experiment. means nothing more than decision making has an subconscious component. Earth shattering.

[IBMua]

@estragon9 Who said it's not concious? She conciously made her decision. I think I fully understand what "concious"/"unconcious" means now and I'll later publish it..

[estragon9]

@IBMua "Who said its not conscious?" The guy in the video.  The conclusion based on the timing of events was that the brain became active before she had a conscious awareness that she was making the decision.

[IBMua]

@estragon9 Yes, you've got a point here. As far as I understood, we first make a decision. Then explain it. To ourselves aswell. Through subvocalisation / visualisation. Or explain it straight onto others if we're talking straight away. I think this technique probably helps us memorise some stuff by translating them onto perception neurons (late-after-sensor ones), which may then destribute it onto LTerm memory. Otherwise they (at least usually) get deleted very fast. Small term memory, I guess.

[macintub]

So the conclusion of this experiment is that our brain decides the action we are about to make?? Well what else could determine it, a consciousness or a soul ? From what I

know consciousness arises from our brain and as for a soul (in the form of a matter-less thing) we don't even know if it exists. 

[zrickytan]

How to live safely in a science fictional universe

[DifferentCandle]

From which program is this video? Can you please give me the source?

[theeggwoman]

This is puzzling, what would the alternative be? That consciousness preludes the mechanics of thinking? It's like arguing for a constant self or soul independent of the mind... if anything it is amazing how quick the brain is at computing.

[BogFrog]

troll troll rright now



[tanthonight]

what would the data show if she had anticipated pushing the button and then changed her mind a split second before she was going to and decided not to push the button

[scarro]

@tanthonight Already tried, same result, people just can't. Try some journal articles :)

[Berkebsn]

Tip of my hat to Charles Yu... (who else got here through his book?)

[SirDarkStar]

The causation is established because they can predict extremely well (even with just this rough data) if you will push the button or not before you 'decide' if you will push the button or not. Go read the original paper and the many follow-ups done since, this is just a demonstration.

[d0840001]

The delay seems to be the time that takes for the signal to go from the brain to the fingertip, for the key to be stroken and for the typing to be recorded by whichever device they are using to fake the results. And this woman reckoning of when she felt she wanted to make the decission can be anything but exact, she can even be creating such a patter as a subconscious result of their expectations. Beware, this experiment is a joke.

[DeathToTheseWalls]

And, as xXfsasXx pointed out, this entire experiment surrounds the fact that this woman's sole focus is "Okay, when am I going to make the decision?"

How do we know the machine isn't simply measuring the anticipation of the decision, and not some sort of preliminary mental "inertia," if you will, propelling it? All of this, even without this knowledge, seems far to arbitrary, riddled with far too many assumptions, to lead to any sort of conclusion.

[DeathToTheseWalls]

I think the data was skewed by the fact that we weren't shown individual choices but the average sum of them, effectively similarizing them into a collective whole.

[sasoon38]

Imagine if we find access to that part of the brain...actually getting in the drivers seat and creating reality as you wish...MAGIC!

[xXfsasXx]

Hang on a second. It makes perfect sense (to me anyway) that if we were told that, in the near future, we were going to have to make a decision that our brain would subconsciously prepare for that decision. Wouldn't a more accurate experiment involve a test subject that was unaware of the choice they are going to have to make?? I'm probably missing the whole point here...

[spartacandream]

@xXfsasXx I was thinking of this too, it is a problem. Though I'm not sold on the idea of free will. I agree with you. Also, she's anticipating, so whether or not she wills it, or her brain started to prepare for a decision, she would have an increase in activity.

[LadyDjin]

@xXfsasXx ok, so your comment was 5 months ago, but thank you putting into words what I could not.

[RyanM4N]

@xXfsasXx What you described sounds to me like an experiment to see if our brains can start preparing a decision for a situation the brain doesn't have any information about yet? I think that would be an experiment trying to find if our brains can predict the future

[philosophywpaul]

Good stuff. 2 Points:

1) I would like to see the experiment done with more complex choices, rather than simple choices in which little reasoning is involved (notice this choice is based on mere preference).

2) Notice what the test subject (Susan) said, "as the urge takes me" and "It's very funny waiting for the urge." The scientist is very careful to use words like "Will and choice" but she says "as the urge takes me." This is important. The inferences many are drawing are not valid

[philosophywpaul]

@philosophywpaul

because the ideas of regulative free will, for example, do not deny our ability to freely choose to follow desires/preferences. that's what's going on here... She's waiting "for the urges." This is a different type of choice than say... looking at 3 options , the reasoning for each, weighing them, and then choosing one.

[chilidoggz]

Damn you Yu!

[macsm]

Incredibly interesting stuff, I've read about this experiment before, but never seen how it was actually done. Thanks for sharing.

[moneyjarrod]

What I should have said actually is: It doesn't seem to negate free will.

[moneyjarrod]

Interesting point this video makes, but it (in my opinion) doesn't necessarily have any impact on free will. Even if the brain makes the decision a whole hour ahead of time before you are consciously aware -- it's still your brain making a decision, as far as I can currently tell. This is total conjecture on my behalf (so take it lightly), but consciousness seems to be merely, your most recent memory.

[HybridD91]

@moneyjarrod But your brain is driven by electrical currents, something you can't control. One question, what is our will free from?

[moneyjarrod]

@HybridD91 Point taken. I suppose it's impossible to know for sure if free will exists; it might not, as I take it you are implying. My statement was making "fee will" an axiom, as by what it seems to be. If free will is true, then the experiment itself does not seem to negate free free will. I'm open to believe that free will might not exist as an absolute thing, as I believe you might be suggesting -- please fee free to correct my assumption of your position if it's in error.

[mtheoryrules]

this focuses on HOW she was able to move, not the reason WHY she moves or which choice of the two buttons she made.

This demonstrates that a will can exist, because there is more than ONE option.

She push one or the other button.

She has those options available, so the consequences for select one or the other is something that she is responsible for because it can clearly be demonstrated that she is aware of both options.

[ndjm00]

@mtheoryrules ''More than one option?''

Does the experiment not show that her brain is preparing for movement long before she conciously choose to make the movement... hence showing that she only really consciously had ONE option which was decided in advance for her by her brain. There may have been 60 minutes / seconds on the clock... but the experiment shows she did not have concious freewill in which minute she choose. That was decided before she made the illusory ''concious decision''.

[mtheoryrules]

@ndjm00

um no

it shows that the motor cortex ramps up before she is able move her muscles

what most do not realize is that this area of the brain is found in many creatures and is not associated as a component that contributes to consciousness.

It indicates that she knew she would have move her fingers in order to press a key of her choice.

lol

[ndjm00]

@mtheoryrules ''it shows that the motor cortex ramps up before she is able move her muscles... It indicates that she knew she would have move her fingers in order to press a key of her choice.''

I disagree. And so does the nuero scientist in the video. This is a very simple experiment... thus it is understandable that you might come to such aflawed conclusion. But science in this area is rapidly progressing since the making of this video. Scientists are now able to predetermine....

[ndjm00]

in some cases up to 10 secs before the person is consciously aware... which button the person will hit. See:

Soon, C.; Brass, M.; Heinze, H.; Haynes, J. (2008). "Unconscious determinants of free decisions in the human brain.". Nature neuroscience 11 (5): 543–545.

[Planxty]

@ndjm00 That is exactly what I was thinking.

[mirabilis]

free will managed by the laws of physics is not "free". but i'm pretty happy with the illusion. :)

[chefshitpiece]

@williamdecypher Do you believe we have FW?

[flixmsncom]

@williamdecypher homo ex machina! How hard is it for some to comprehend that all of a human body abide's to the laws of physics? The human brain can theoretically have more possible connections then there are atoms on this planet! indeed this experiment explains nothing but maybe the trouble people have with their deceptive consciousness.

[FractaLove358]

Retrocausality. Soul makes decision at point W and the decision causes electrical potential to build up at position W-X (the past). Libet's experiments don't prove anything unfortunately.

[83zeus]

if the question is, do we have free will, what would we expect so see as we monitor the brain at work. this experiment simply shows the brain working. the issue of free will has been around since we first recognized as a part of the biosphere, i don't think the results here get us closer to aswering the issue will.

[davetheraveishere]

Read : Bennett, M.R. & Hacker, P.M.S. "Philosophy and Neuroscience", chapter 14.4 and 14.5 of Philosophical Foundations of Neuroscience by M.R. Bennett and P.M.S. Hacker, Oxford 2003

[dav7boz]

So when do I decide to unleash it? Same thing. It's already made. The final movement comes on impulse. So, maybe all you're doing is measuring pre-meditated impulse. Maybe it's all semantics. Either way, what is the revelation in showing that there is increased brain ( what is it? Pre-frontal?) activity before the final decision? I don't get it.

[dav7boz]

I also hear about the "finger-wiggling" experiment. First of all, I don't see that they are conclusive in any manner that would imply very much about anything. Who would think that there is NOT a build-up to what we might perceive as an exact decision to move the finger? If we've already decided to do it, and we're just waiting to make the decision, well, we've already made the "decision". All I feel I'm doing is unleashing the energy to move the finger.

[websoull]

I like this...I always belive there is no free will and I believe consciousness is deterministic...its complex mechanics...However, I also believe awareness is different than consciousness..The world and every action is deterministic and there is the observer...observer cannot play the game, his role is only to observe...everthingelse is staged...

[davetheraveishere]

@websoull that is incredibly incoherent

[moxito1]

but wouldnt that bulidng up ac tivity is caused cause the subject of the experiment is aware that it has to make a choice?

[arabiccola]

I would humbly suggest that the results of this experiment may not be as meaningful as they may seem because the volunteer is already assigned a predetermined mission which is to press the button over and over again. That is, he would be in a position where he has a persistent sense of obligation or purpose to press the button over and over again. This translates into "picking good, random times to click" but not to choose "whether or not" to click, which is something he has already agreed on.

[arabiccola]

With the passage of time, the sense of obligation accumulates, or the sense of purposelessness in this situation (since the purpose is already defined as "pressing over and over"). This provides an increasing motive to click, which may explain the shown accumulation which as said starts at least 2 seconds before the actual act is attempted. However, it was also mentioned (not here) that such accumulations were occasionally interrupted, which may represent better what we may mean by free will.

[max11paz]

that's because our mind look forward in time,see the experience,and then back up in time to make the actual response.The most plausible explanation has the observer projecting the experience back in time from the perspective of having already seen it.

[abba149]

oops i still need one of those scans