Just because some founders said the foundation of America was laid on the principles of Christianity does not mean this nation was founded on the beliefs of Christianity.
@daimon7 THEY created this nation and THEY don't know how they founded it. You have a lot of nerve to think you know more than the founders. You simply ignore the facts and that makes it not true? Over and over the FOUNDERS themselves called this a "Christian Nation", and you simply ignore it because it destroys your beliefs. I know some of them were not Christians, but most were. You can only site maybe 10 who were not . Jefferson, Franklin, Paine, who else?
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religeon, Art. 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, signed by John Adams, president of the United States, UNANIMOUSLY ratified by the US Senate on June 10 1797!! So if the US is a Christian nation, why did the Government support and back this?
@Billyyank1 Article XI simply distinguished America from those historical strains of European Christianity which held an inherent hatred of Muslims; it simply assured the Muslims that the United States was not a Christian nation like those of previous centuries (with whose practices the Muslims were very familiar) and thus would not undertake a religious holy war against them.
@Billyyank1 The numerous documents surrounding the Barbary Powers Conflict confirm that historically it was always viewed as a conflict between Christian America and Muslim nations. Those documents completely disprove the notion that any founding President, especially Washington, ever declared that America was not a Christian nation or people.
"There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half of the world fools and the other hypocrities" ~ Thomas Jefferson
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
--The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution
"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."
“We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments.”
- James Madison
“Religion [is] the basis and foundation of Government”
- James Madison
“Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ.”
“I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law … There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.”
- Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, Harvard Speech, 1829
“[The Bible] is the rock on which our Republic rests.”
God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever.
- Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Memorial
The Christian religion is the best religion that has ever been given to man
“The only foundation for . . . a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.”
- Benjamin Rush signer of the Declaration
“The rights essential to happiness. . . . We claim them from a higher source — from the King of kings and Lord of all the earth.”
It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.- Patrick Henry
John Jay, First Chief-Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court
Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty – as well as privilege and interest – of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.
James Madison said: “Before any man can be considered as a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the universe—religion is the basis and foundation of government.”
Congress printed a Bible for America and said:
“The United States in Congress assembled … recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States … a neat edition of the Holy Scriptures for the use of schools.”
The founding fathers warned against having any alliance with any nation. They said be friends to all but have alliances with none. Today we see America in "special relationships" with Great Britian and Israel. I would like to know where in history does the founding fathers tell Americans to be in these relationships?? where are the documents?
The founding fathers were Deists.. they believed in a God, but they did not believe in the God as Christians commonly understand. They believed in Natural Law and Natures God, they were philosophers and studied all the classical writings of Ancient Greece and Rome. Americans who teach this Christian nation stuff are traitors and liars
@GB26007 you are so wrong Maybe 2 were deist. 29 held seminary degrees. check out THEIR words. not some professor who lived 200 years later. The founders writings are so much more revealing and interesting.
@anthonyehooker No i am so right... when the founding fathers are talking about "Creator endowed rights" ie God given rights.... they are talking about God in the broadest sense. They are not talking about any particular religions version of God, ie not Jehovah of the bible. If you believe in the bible, then YOUR "creator endowed rights" would come from Jehovah, but that doesn't mean somebody else believes there God given rights has came from the same particular creator.
@anthonyehooker Yes Jesus is YOUR God, but that doesn't give you the right under the US Constitution to force that belief on anybody else. The US Constitution forbids any national religion been established, it gives personal freedom to worship the God of your choice. Without the Constitution you couldn't be a Christian and Jesus would not be your God. The Constitution gives and protects those "Creator Endowed Rights" given by "Natures God"
@GB26007 I would never FORCE my beliefs on anyone. But Jesus is the God that the Founding fathers believed in. THEY are the ones that called this a CHRISTIAN NATION.
@anthonyehooker The founding Fathers hated Christianity as you know it. Thomas Paine write a whole booklet condemning it. Thomas Jefferson was so disgusted by the bible he tore it up and write his own version!. George washington and Benjemin Franklin were both Deist Freemasons. You can't change history... the Christian nation propaganda you spread is lies and deception
@GB26007 Washington only attended 4 Masonic meetings. He said the free masons was the most dangerous thin in America.
Ben Franklin said "As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and His religion as He left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see"
Jefferson said "I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others."
@anthonyehooker Ok if America is a Christian Nation, why is there a Egyptian Sun Obelisk in the nations capital? Why is there in Washington a painting of all the Ancient Pagan Gods with George Washington sitting among them as a God!. Why does the Constitution say "Natures God" and not "Jehovah"?. Why is all the architecture around Washington DC classical Greek and Roman? Why did Thomas Jefferson tear his bible up and write his own? Why did Thomas Paine write the "Age of Reason"?.
@GB26007 Jefferson did not TEAR it up. he just wrote what he called something like a commentary. Thomas Paine was NOT a Christian. I never said they were ALL christian. Why do you have such a problem with so many of them being Christians? 29 of the founders graduated from seminary. One was a baptist Preacher.
@anthonyehooker i haven't got a problem with Christianity, i have a problem with you saying America is a Christian nation when it is not. Even a "Atheist" in America has "Creator Endowed rights" weather he/she wants to believe it or not, when you are born you are born with certain fundemental rights in nature, they are the "right to life " the right to own property and the right to pursue happiness.
@GB26007 It's not me saying this is a Christian Nation. The founding fathers said it, the Supreme Court said it. Those were here when the nation was founded. Are You denying what the people who created this nation said? That takes alot of stupidity.
@anthonyehooker no they did not, they hated christianity. They were all Deists, Washington, Franklin, Paine, Jefferson. Nature's God is not Jehovah, Jehovah is not the God of creation (this world) in the bible, Satan is!. So you have come to a dead on, you know full well America is not a christian nation
@GB26007 you do not know your bible. Jesus Created everything that is made. Read chapter 1. 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
@anthonyehooker No nation can ever be a Christian nation. Jesus is not the God of this world!... jesus does not concern himself with nations or governments, his kingdom is not of this world. The God you seem to be worshipping is the God of this world!!!... and we all know who that is don't we?!!.
The Founding Fathers created a Government where the Government was "subject" to the people, not the people "subject" to the government. It was the first time in history it had ever been done. The Government of the United States is the Constitution and nothing more, the constitution limits the government on what it can and can't do. The establishment of a national or state religion is forbidden by the Constitution. The founding fathers knew the dangers of mixing church and state
Lies, deception and propaganda... America is not a Christian Nation, it was founded on the principle of Natural Law and Natures God. America is a secular Government created on the principle that Man has CREATOR ENDOWED RIGHTS and Man then forms Government to PROTECT those CREATOR ENDOWED RIGHTS. The founding fathers understood that Man does not get his "rights" from Government but Man is born with certain unalienable rights from the Creator. The founded fathers hated Christianity
@GB26007 "Lies, deception and propaganda..." What did you expect coming from Christian Broadcasting Network? Clearly the story was slanted to lend credibility to the network's obvious bias.
"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society?In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny.In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people.Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries.A just government,instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty,does not need the clergy."
-James Madison,author of the American Constitution.
@anthonyehooker It(the constitution) mentions the Christian god perhaps once, in the first quote you use, and even that is debateable. The rest are ambiguous enough to include pretty much every diety.
Did you know that Congress spent tax money to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ? They also started the first Bible Society in America? John Jay (supreme court justice) was the president.
i love how the constitution resembles the iroquois constitution and if the founders believed evryone was equal, then why did they mistreat native Indians? Fucking liers! lmao
@1492CrE8edBabylon One of the first things congress did was spend tax money to reach the Indians for Christ. Does that sound like a nation not Christian?
America was founded on the principles of Rousseau and Locke, not the Bible. It's an absolutely disgusting insult to even insinuate such a thing. Once again, theists twist facts and fail to give credit where credit is due. Also, it is FACT that most of the founding fathers were agnostics or deists. Many of them hated Christianity. Pray to your "god" as much as you like theists, it's not going to change the fact that the U.S. is not and has never been a "Christian nation."
if the values of democracy & religious pluralism came directly from "christian tradition", Then WTF where Christians doing for 1700 years? our present political system & philosophy was formed as a direct consequence of Christians on Christian violence & persecution.motivated by sectarian bigotry, like what we see in northern ireland or in Iraq between shia & sunni Muslims.
Why did it only appear from European christian cultures,our history & its unique formation from a byproduct of events & influences, the memory of pre-christian traditions & particularly the experiment of democracy in ancient Athens & Rome, The religious polarization & ugly conflict during the reformation encouraged the religious divided nations to cease the practice of religious exclusion overtime.
ok, 6 of the 7 founding fathers were deist.Franklin: "Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Thomas Payne: "The New Testament, they tell us, is founded upon the prophecies of the Old; if so, it must follow the fate of its foundation.'' "What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the belief of this debauchery is called faith." i can go on forever.
@dragoblaze5 Because Israel is God's chosen people. I believe America is the greatest nation in the world. I spent 6 yrs. in the marine corps to defend her. But I would fight for Israel against America if I had to choose, because I WILL NOT go against God's chosen people. God said He would bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel.
@anthonyehooker wow I am a christian for israel, don't get me wrong i sign the pleage cufi. I understand what the bible say about Israel I feel that israel should be defend even in there darkess hour I am all for that blessed nation and thank you for defending this great nation. I feel that the men and woman fight for this contry should get better rewards. What I am saying is how is this a christian nation thats all.
@jfsfrnd: “I just love how some Christians take statments out of context. LOL”
Hey, WE can play that game, TOO! Observe (I’ll be more honest than them and properly indicate omissions with ellipses):
“…there is no God….” ← The HOLY BIBLE, a FULL DOZEN TIMES in the KJV (more in some other versions)!!
Deuteronomy 32:39; I Kings 8:23; II Kings 1:16 & 5:15; II Chronicles 6:14; Psalm 14:1 & 53:1; and Isaiah 44:6,8 & 45:5,14,21; plus Sirach 36:5 & II Esdras 8:58 in the KJV Apocrypha!
I think I'll just keep accepting what the founders said in their own writings. Let people keep trying to change it. it does not change what they wrote. Even Thomas Jefferson wrote in a letter "I am a Christian"
@anthonyehooker, You quoting just those four words from Jefferson’s letter without even quoting the rest of the SENTENCE, let alone PARAGRAPH, is JUST as dishonest (more so, since you didn’t use ellipses to indicate your omissions) as an atheist quoting the first sentence of Psalm 14:1 and 53:1, and skipping over the first seven words, so that it reads, “… there is no God.”
See? WE can play that game, TOO!
(That four-word clause appears a FULL DOZEN TIMES, INTACT, in the KJV!)
@anthonyehooker, You’re welcome. I, too, admit when I’m wrong, as per the “Mea Culpa” on confusing the Holy Trinity case. This ups my respect for you even more, as that sort of maturity and honesty seems to be exceedingly rare on the Internet.
@COMALiteJ I am just in the past few months getting really interested in our History. The one thing I know better than anything else is the Bible. Now I'm not saying I know it all, no one does. But I have been preaching for 34 years and have put a lot of study into it. I believe Baptist doctrine is straight from the Bible. (now I do understand there are many variations of Baptist) I am Independent Baptist. One thing people don't seem to know. We are not Protestant.
@COMALiteJ Cont. We did not split from the Catholic Church. Even Martin Luther persecuted the baptist. Because we do not baptize infants. We Believe in "Believer's Baptism" One must have willingly accepted Christ as their Savior. In the Beginning of Americas History Baptist were locked up, exiled, and various other things for preaching this. That is where our Bill of rights came from. James Madison and a Preacher in VA.
@anthonyehooker, Yes, I am aware of that (or, rather, the beliefs of certain Baptist sects that they’re part of some “remnant” of the Original Church of Jesus Christ — there are no hard historical records backing that claim up, but the usual explanation is that the Roman Catholics destroyed all such records, and indeed they would have had such ever existed).
That said, the term “Protestant” refers to any group formed by splitting off from an Originalist group such as the RCC.
@anthonyehooker, (cont.) Martin Luther was NOT the first Protestant. He started the big Protestant Reformation, but groups had been splitting off from the Catholics centuries before.
Christian sects should probably best be categorized as follows:
• Originalist (RCC, Orthodox)
• Remnantist (Independent Baptist and others who claim to be a remnant of the Original Church)
• Protestant (split off from RCC or another Protestant sect)
@anthonyehooker, I will say that no Protestant sect has any logical claim of being the One (or even A) True Christian sect. There are only two possibilities, assuming that Christianity itself is at all true:
• The Roman Catholic Church is true.
• The Roman Catholic Church is false.
If the RCC is true, the Protestants would be heretical apostates. If false, the Protestants are fruit of an evil tree, and Jesus Himself said that an evil tree CANNOT bring forth good fruit!
@jfsfrnd I think we may both be in agreement on the Christian Nation part. I believe that the constitution was written so that everyone, Christian, Muslim or even Atheist can live freely together without any punishment. As a Baptist and Christian, I believe that religion is a free choice. No one can be forced into Christianity, nor should they. The VA. preacher is was talking about was John Leland. There is a plaque on the side of the road where the meeting took place. CONT>
@anthonyehooker At the Virginia Constitutional Convention in 1776, Thomas Jefferson opposed general assessment taxes to support religion and proposed that dissenters be exempted from such taxes. When his proposal was blocked, Leland and the Baptists of Virginia felt that support of Jefferson's proposal was so urgent that they held a meeting on Christmas day of "an Association of Ministers and Delegates" and wrote a paper giving reasons for supporting Jefferson's proposal. CONT>
@anthonyehooker "No man or set of Men are entitled to exclusive or separate Emoluments or Privileges from the Community but in consideration of Public Services. If, therefore, the State provides a Support for Preachers of the Gospel, and they receive it in Consideration of their Services, they must certainly when they preach, act as Officers of the State and ought to be accountable thereto for their Conduct. . . .
@anthonyehooker the Consequence of this is, that those whom the state employs in its Service, it has a right to regulate and dictate to; it may judge and determine who shall preach; when and where they shall preach. The mutual obligations between Preachers and Societies they belong to . . . must evidently be weakened -- Yea, farewell to the last Article of the Bill of Rights! [The fourth article of the Virginia Declaration of Rights adopted in 1776].
@anthonyehooker Some think that this kind of support from Baptists prompted Jefferson write his "Act for Establishing Religious Freedom." When it was first introduced in 1779, Baptists were virtually alone in supporting it. The bill was reintroduced and passed in 1786 after James Madison's "Memorial and Remonstrance" opposing Patrick Henry's general assessment bill to provide for "Teachers of the Christian Religion" received wide circulation and acceptance throughout Virginia.
is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion." The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of it's protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and infidel of every denomination.
@anthonyehooker Yeah that's why Jefferson wrote this: from Autobiography - by Thomas Jefferson
The bill for establishing religious freedom, the principles of which had, to a certain degree, been enacted before, I had drawn in all the latitude of reason & right. It still met with opposition; but, with some mutilations in the preamble, it was finally passed; and a singular proposition proved that it's protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares that coercion
@anthonyehooker, The FULL Jefferson quote that you (or your source) so dishonestly excerpted:
“To the corruptions of christianity [sic] I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the ONLY sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every HUMAN excellence, AND BELIEVING HE NEVER CLAIMED ANY OTHER.” [letter to Benjamin Rush — UPPERCASE emphasis mine]
@anthonyehooker (cont.), By “his doctrines,” Jefferson meant the MORAL TEACHINGS of Jesus, which he did consider the greatest of philosophies that MORTAL HUMAN BEINGS (which he believed Jesus to be no more than) had ever produced.
Note that he does NOT capitalize pronouns referring to Jesus (except when the first word of a sentence), as anyone who believed in His divinity would do (even I capitalize them out of respect for my former religion).
@anthonyehooker, “I think I'll just keep accepting what the founders said in their own writings.”
I’m going to ask you what I asked 9pt9: have YOU PERSONALLY READ those writings from their PRIMARY sources? Or have you read some collection of Founding Fathers quotes (many of which aren’t even real) assembled for your consumption by the likes of David Barton and his Wallbuilders, Inc., or the likes of W. Cleon Skousen or his posthumous protegé Glenn Beck, etc. etc. etc.?
@COMALiteJ I have been collecting the journals and personal writings of the founding fathers. I have the first history book written in america (1789) written by Dave Ramsay, From 1782 to 1786 he served in the Continental Congress, and from 1801 to 1815 in the state Senate, of which he was long president. I use documented material.
@anthonyehooker, History books, even very early ones, are NOT PRIMARY sources. (A certain fake George Washington quote got its start from a flawed history book, but the quote as heard these days, and printed on T-shirts, mugs, bumper stickers, etc. [some “Christians” like to make money off of FAKE Founding Fathers quotes!] has been heavily altered even from that!). Journals, etc. are. Which ones do you have? Do you actually have the originals, or copies?
@anthonyehooker, Ack! I didn’t mean that to sound like I was disputing your copies. I was curious because you’d said that you collected Founding Fathers journals and other personal writings, and I merely wondered if that meant that you actually had some historically valuable originals in your possession. I apologize if that appeared to be an attack on your credibility. That was NOT what I intended.
@COMALiteJ I have just started collecting them. I have one by George Washington. I am constantly looking for others. By the way I did not mean for my comment to come across like I thought you were doubting me, sorry about that. The rest are just partials.
@anthonyehooker, Cool! I read the writings that are available on Google Books and similar public domain online libraries. Having a physical book in hand is so much better. :-)
@anthonyehooker, (cont.) The ORIGINAL question I’d asked before was about whether you had the WHOLE writings (even as copies in published book form), or some books that EXCERPTED FROM them (or claimed to). I’ve come across a lot of the latter, and some of your posts here implied the latter, like when you said that Thomas Jefferson wrote, “I am a Christian” (he did, but went on to explain right in that same sentence that what he meant by that was very different from most).
@anthonyehooker, David Barton in particular put out a memo (signed in his own handwriting) to his followers, alerting them to the fact that a dozen of the “Founding Fathers quotes” that he himself had previously popularized were “questionable” at best.
In the memo, he warned his followers against using them “at the SCHOLARLY level.” But, in the same memo, he said, “Fret not, the sun will still rise, and those quotes will inevitably CONTINUE to be heard AT THE •POPULAR• LEVEL!”
@anthonyehooker, (cont.) Think about what he was saying there. He didn’t come right out and say it in so many words (plausible deniability and all that), but the intention is clear. Nudge-nudge, wink-wink.
Don’t use the FAKE quotes at the SCHOLARLY level, because, y’know, REAL scholars KNOW stuff, and might catch you in the lies. But please DO CONTINUE to use them AT THE POPULAR level, where less-educated people (e.g. school boards, politicians, etc.) won’t know what’s what!
@anthonyehooker, Quite recently, YEARS AFTER he wrote that memo, he sat as a witness in Congress and listened as at least one of the quotes that HE PERSONALLY KNEW FOR A FACT was fake (it was one of the ones in his memo) was read into the Congressional Record as part of a Resolution! And he didn’t say a word! The VIDEO of this is RIGHT HERE ON YOUTUBE!!
Separation of Church and state is not in the Constitution. The founders meant that the Government could not establish a state religion. There is nothing in the constitution that says the church has to stay out of politics. It is not illegal for preachers to preach politics from the pulpit.
@anthonyehooker: “Separation of Church and state is not in the Constitution.”
That exact phrase? No. The concept? Yes. Twice, including once in the original UNAMENDED, PRE-Bill-of-Rights Constitition (“no religious test”).
“The founders meant that the Government could not establish a state religion.”
That, too, but the opposite as well. Jefferson chose his words carefully: “…a WALL of separation.…” NOT a door, gate, turnstile, etc. WALLS block passage in BOTH directions!
@anthonyehooker, “There is nothing in the constitution that says the church has to stay out of politics.”
In the Constitution itself? Perhaps not, but in the laws established under the Constitution, yes, there is. The tax-exempt status of churches is to do precisely that. If they are not called upon to contribute to the government, they are not empowered to interfere with it. Taxpaying citizens are empowered to participate in politics partly because they do pay taxes.
On top of the Washington Monument is the inscription "Laus Deo" which means "Praise be to God". On the steps going up on the inside are written Bible verses. As you walk up the steps to the building which houses the U.S. Supreme Court you can see near the top of the building is Moses holding the Ten Commandment. There are Bible verses etched in stone all over the Federal Buildings and Monuments in Washington, D.C.
@anthonyehooker: “As you walk up the steps to the building which houses the U.S. Supreme Court you can see near the top of the building is Moses holding the Ten Commandment.”
First off, I notice you didn’t specify “MAIN entrance” like the chain Email you seem to be quoting that from says. Maybe that was because you were running out of 500 characters and so skipped some words, or maybe you knew better and were trying to be a bit more honest than that chain mail.
@anthonyehooker, (cont.) As it so happens, that photo shown in that Email is of the REAR entrance, NOT the MAIN entrance.
Secondly, the photo is cropped misleadingly. Yes, Moses is there, but so are Confucius and Solon, two other ancient lawgivers, and they are NOT deferring to Moses.
We have the ACTUAL WORDS of the ACTUAL ARTIST who ACTUALLY DESIGNED those friezes, both outside and inside the Supreme Court building, as to what they ACTUALLY mean. The chain mail LIES!
@anthonyehooker: Furthermore, the Supreme Court building itself does NOT date back to the Founding Fathers. Neither do ANY of those monuments you speak of (that’s why they’re called “monuments” — they’re in MEMORIAL to great men who had ALREADY passed away by the time they were designed, let alone built). They cannot be used as evidence for what the FOUNDING FATHERS, who never clapped eyes on ANY of them, actually wanted.
@anthonyehooker, (cont.) To be specific, the U.S. Supreme Court building was built in 1935. That’s OVER A THIRD of the way into the TWENTIETH CENTURY! There are still THOUSANDS of American citizens, many still of sound mind and memory, who were TEENS or even ADULTS when that was built! They REMEMBER it being built! We already had COLOR MOVIES and even B&W TELEVISION and early JET AIRPLANES then!
Most of the Founders’ GRANDKIDS were LONG since dead by then!
@anthonyehooker, (cont.) The Jefferson Memorial in particular has engraved on it several quotes that Jefferson himself NEVER actually said nor wrote, plus others spliced together from multiple sources and juxtaposed in ways to 180° DIAMETRICALLY REVERSE his intended meaning (like quoting the New Testament as follows: “And Judas went, and hanged himself. Jesus saith, Go, and do thou likewise.”) designed to make him look more Christian than he really was.
Name Religion Morris, Robert EP Morton, John ? Nelson Jr., Thomas ? Paca, William EP Paine, Robert Treat CO Penn, John ? Read, George EP Rodney, Caesar EP Ross, George ? Rush, Benjamin PB Rutledge, Edward AN Sherman, Roger CO Smith, James PB Stockton, Richard PB Stone, Thomas EP Taylor, George PB Thornton, Matthew PB Religion key: AN = Anglican CO = Congregationalist DE = Deist EP = Episcopal PB = Presbyterian QU = Quaker RC = Roman Catholic UN = Unitarian
Name Religion Hart, John PB Hewes, Joseph EP Heyward Jr., Thomas ? Hooper, William EP Hopkins, Stephen ? Hopkinson, Francis EP Huntington, Samuel CO Jefferson, Thomas DE Lee, Francis Lightfoot ? Lee, Richard Henry ? Lewis, Francis ? Livingston, Philip PB Lynch Jr., Thomas ? McKean, Thomas PB Middleton, Arthur ? Morris, Lewis ? Religion key: AN = Anglican CO = Congregationalist DE = Deist EP = Episcopal PB = Presbyterian QU = Quaker RC = Roman Catholic UN = Unitarian
Name Religion Adams, John UN Adams, Samuel CO Bartlett, Josiah CO Braxton, Carter EP Carroll of Carrollton, Charles RC Chase, Samuel EP Clark, Abraham PB Clymer, George QU/EP Ellery, William CO Floyd, William PB Franklin, Benjamin DE Gerry, Elbridge EP Gwinnett, Button EP Hall, Lyman CO Hancock, John CO Harrison, Benjamin ? Religion key: AN = Anglican CO = Congregationalist DE = Deist EP = Episcopal PB = Presbyterian QU = Quaker RC = Roman Catholic UN = Unitarian
The constitution says congress shall make NO LAWS concerning religion or the exercise thereof. That means the state can't force any kind of religion on anyone. You have just as much right not to worship as I have to worship.
Liberals love to say the founding fathers were deist and atheist. TWO were Deist. The others were members of Presbyterian, Congregational, and other churches. Several were graduates of Seminary.
True, but that word did not mean then what it does today. It simply meant “college.” It did NOT mean solely an institute of RELIGIOUS higher learning, as it does today.
Words change meaning over time, sometimes pretty quickly. Before the mid-1980s (a mere ¼ century ago, well within the ADULT memories of ½ the population!), if someone said “going postal,” they were talking about how they were shipping a parcel somewhere.
What about the declaration of independence it came years before the Constitution. God is mentioned in it. What about the Treaty of Paris. The trinity is mentioned in it. And why did Congress vote to start a church in the capitol in 1800. Thomas Jefferson even had the Marine Corps band play for the Hymns during the worship service. What about the Supreme Court stating that America is a Christian nation.
@anthonyehooker, “What about the declaration of independence it came years before the Constitution. God is mentioned in it.”
Only by generic Deist euphemistic terms: “nature’s God,” “divine Providence,” “supreme Judge,” and “their Creator.” Had Jefferson meant the Judeo-Christian God, he would’ve written, “The LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob” or “The LORD Sabaoth of Hosts.” Had he wanted to be Christian-specific, he would’ve written, “Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”
@anthonyehooker, “What about the Treaty of Paris. The trinity is mentioned in it.”
The Treaty of Paris was in 1783. The Constitution wasn’t ratified until 1787. Article VI ¶2 only makes Treaties that are ratified UNDER THE CONSTITUTION (NOT the miserably failed Articles of Conferderation) into the SUPREME Law of the Land, jointly with the Constitution itself. So, the Treaty of Tripoli IS, and the Treaty of Paris is NOT.
@anthonyehooker: “Thomas Jefferson even had the Marine Corps band play for the Hymns during the worship service.”
No, he didn’t. That’s a myth at best that has very little basis in truth, and grew into its current form by a chain of sources, each expanding on what came before (like a game of “telephone”), and has been very thoroughly debunked.
Oh, and the church services themselves are questionable at best, too.
@anthonyehooker: “What about the Supreme Court stating that America is a Christian nation.”
As I have already repeatedly said in this thread, it wasn’t the UNITED STATES Supreme Court that ruled that (in the Holy Trinity case). It was the STATE Supreme Court of ILLINOIS, which of course has NO JURISDICTION nor LEGAL STANDING to make any ruling of that sort about the USA as a whole. Their power and authority ends at the Illinois State line.
@COMALiteJ yout are incorrect. It was the United States Supreme court. Justice David Josiah Brewer Associate Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court for 20 years. Wrote the statement we are discussing.
@COMALiteJ sorry, wrong again, he was on the supreme court. Brewer was confirmed by the Senate on December 18, and received commission the same day, joining a court that included S. J. Field, his uncle. He served on the court for 20 years, until his death in 1910.
@anthonyehooker, Ooops! Mea culpa. The Church of the Holy Trinity case was indeed the US Supreme Court with Justice Brewer, but the statement often used is from the Illinois State S.C. case Richmond vs. Moore, 1883:
“Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of The Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian….”
@anthonyehooker, (cont.) Even that, though, is out of context. Here’s the complete paragraph:
“Although it is no part of the functions of our system of government to propagate religion, and to enforce its tenets, when the great body of the people are Christians, in fact or sentiment, our laws and institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise.—
“—And in this sense, and to this extent, our civilization and institutions are emphatically Christian, but not for the purpose of compelling men to embrace particular doctrines or creeds of any church, or to support one or another denomination by public burthens [sic], but simply to afford protection to all in the enjoyment of their belief or unbelief.”
As you can see, the full paragraph says something quite different than the commonly heard excerpt.
@COMALiteJ Let me say that I believe everyone has the right to be what they want to be. That does not take away the fact that America was founded on Biblical principals. The founders quoted the Bible more than they quoted any other source. I spent six years in the Marine Corps to defend a persons right to be a Christian or an Atheist. I believe one hundred percent in Religious Freedom, or even freedom form Religion. I just don't want to see anyone die and go to Hell.
@anthonyehooker: “I spent six years in the Marine Corps to defend a persons right to be a Christian or an Atheist.”
Thank you, thank you, thank you! I mean that very sincerely. Thank you for willingly putting your life on the line to defend my freedoms. That goes to all who serve — they have my utmost respect.
“That does not take away the fact that America was founded on Biblical principals [sic].”
Show me these UNIQUELY Biblical principLEs in the Constitution.
@anthonyehooker, Back to the Holy Trinity case of the U.S. Supreme Court, with Associate Justice D. J. Brewer.
Turns out that the statements about Christianity therein are all what is legally called “dicta” (look it up in a dictionary of law [singular: “dictum”]), which means views UNRELATED to the actual case, which can be used to persuade, but which are NOT part of the actual judgment and which CANNOT be used as any sort of legally binding precedent.
“In the Year of Our Lord.” Oh, please. That was the standard formal dating nomenclature of the time for formal documents (which the Constitution most definitely was) — literally, the English translation of the Latin phrase “Anno Domini,” abbreviated as “A.D.” in informal documents.
If you’re going to harp on that one word used to denote the era of the year, what about the REST of the date? Over ½ of our months are named after either Roman gods, or two Roman Cæsars who were held to be man-gods.
To be specific: January (Janus) through June (Juno) are named after Roman gods. July is named after Julius Cæsar, and August after Augustus Cæsar, both of whom were considered demigods.
ALL of the days of the wek are named after either generic pagan (SUNday and MOoNday), Norse (Trewes’ Day, Woden’s Day, Thor’s Day, and Frig’s Day), or Roman (Saturn’s Day) gods.
So, by THAT logic, the USA is a PAGAN nation, since the Constitution closes with a date in a system using those!
FACT: The founders made it ILLEGAL for atheists to serve in government.
There is nothing secular about that. It's called ANTI-secular. If you were an atheist you were prohibited from working in government and from testifying in a court of law.
The reason every theist AND atheist officially and legally recognizes GOD (see founding document and all 50 state constitutions etc) is because without God you have NO inalienable rights.God is our sole granter of rights and liberties. We are a nation founded upon DISTRUST in human rulers.
@Mr88playmaker, “…because without God you have NO inalienable rights.God is our sole granter of rights and liberties.”
Nope. The term in the Declaration is “endowed by THEIR CREATOR with certain unalienable Rights…”. Jefferson chose his words carefully. He used GENERIC terms for deity in that and all three of the other references to the generic functions of deity in the Declaration. He did NOT write, “Our Lord Jesus Christ,” nor “The LORD Sabaoth of Hosts,” etc.
@COMALiteJ The Bible plainly says JESUS is the creator. John Chapter 1 verses 1-3" 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." The Word is Jesus Christ
@anthonyehooker, “The Bible plainly says JESUS is the creator.”
I know. Read my post again: This is about what THOMAS JEFFERSON, author of the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, meant by that term AS USED THEREIN. This isn’t about what the Bible says.
You may recall that Jefferson made his own version of the Bible which has ONLY the MORAL TEACHINGS of Jesus (which he considered the greatest philosophy ever), but omits ALL miracles, ALL claims to divinity or even Messiahhood, etc.
@Mr88playmaker, (cont.) It IS true that atheism was generally considered intellectually untenable at the time, which is why deism was so popular: it was as close to atheism as one could get in these days before Darwinian (or even pre-Darwinian, e.g. Lamarckian) evolution, the Big Bang Theory (or even the Steady-State Theory that it replaced).
That said, Jefferson’s point with “endowed by their Creator” was that Rights are NOT GRANTED to us, but are INHERENT IN US.
@Mr88playmaker, (cont.) He wanted to make plain that the Rights do NOT come from the GOVERNMENT, but that ALL Persons already HAD Rights, endowed by whoever OR WHATEVER created Persons. Whether that was Elohim of Genesis Chapter 1, or YHWH of Genesis Chapter 2, or some pagan god or gods, or even Darwinian evolution (of course, Jefferson didn’t know about that, but the point remains that it DOES qualify as a Creator of Persons and thus their Rights), is IRRELEVANT to that.
@Mr88playmaker: “The founders made it ILLEGAL for atheists to serve in government. There is nothing secular about that. It's called ANTI-secular. If you were an atheist you were prohibited from working in government and from testifying in a court of law.”
Flatly not true. It is true that some STATES did that, but the Constitution OVERRIDES that (Article VI ¶2 again).
So, about your use of the word “FACT” — well, this guy says it best:
America is NOT a christian nation. Yes, it does make up 33% of America's religions, and is the most common in america, and infact christianity makes up the majority of the whole world, but that doesn't mean that we call this "the Christian Earth" do we? no
"the idea that all human beings possess certain innate inalienable natural rights" is patently not a Christian principle. The idea of 'natural rights' is a product of secular humanist philosophy. The Bible condones, and even sets provisions over the practices of slavery and rape, the two most egregious violations of an individuals natural rights, save outright murder.
@RebelWrestler45, “‘the idea that all human beings possess certain innate inalienable natural rights’ is patently not a Christian principle.”
Ayup. I challenge ANYONE to show me the word “right” in the Bible used in that sense. In the vast majority of its appearances, it merely means the opposite of “wrong” or “left.” In the few remaining appearances, it means something along the lines of a “right-of-way,” which is NOT an Inherent Right of Personhood.
usa is not a christian nation, its a corrupted nation controlled by powerfull businessmen who are trying to erase religion and all they care about is money (money is power). the biggest christian nation in the world is brazil
@amphibient09 Oh man. read the Bible. The bible teaches capitol punishment. God is Just. True, He is Love. But he is also Just. The will judge everyone. First on whether or not they have Accepted Jesus as their Savior. If not He will cast them into hell, Because That is where they chose, not him. Then he will judge the Christians according to their works. For rewards, not for where they will spend eternity.
@anthonyehooker: “The bible teaches capitol [sic] punishment.”
Yes, it does, but only for really serious crimes — like kids being stubbornly disobedient to their parents (Deuteronomy 21:18–21).
Oh, and if apostates preach in any city known to the Israelites, and people in that city even LISTEN to the apostates, the ENTIRE CITY is to be NUKED (or the nearest equivalent available in the technology of the time) and EVERY LIVING THING SLAIN — Deuteronomy Chapter 13.
@COMALiteJ There are different dispensations in the Bible. The old testament is under the law as given to Moses. Today we are in the dispensation of Grace.
@anthonyehooker, So, you were saying that it was EVER right and just to execute children painfully for disobeying their parents, or to wipe ENTIRE CITIES off the map, killing EVERYONE and destroying EVERYTHING therein, just because someone preached there and someone who lived there listened!?
Yes, I know what Dispensationalism is. It’s what most “born-again” “fundamentalist” Christians actually are, and it’s really an 18th-century American cult (like Mormonism).
Just because some founders said the foundation of America was laid on the principles of Christianity does not mean this nation was founded on the beliefs of Christianity.
daimon7 1 day ago
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@daimon7 THEY created this nation and THEY don't know how they founded it. You have a lot of nerve to think you know more than the founders. You simply ignore the facts and that makes it not true? Over and over the FOUNDERS themselves called this a "Christian Nation", and you simply ignore it because it destroys your beliefs. I know some of them were not Christians, but most were. You can only site maybe 10 who were not . Jefferson, Franklin, Paine, who else?
anthonyehooker 1 day ago
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@daimon7 Are you nuts? If I said I built my family upon biblical principles, who would know more about it? me or you? ME. THEY know what they did.
anthonyehooker 4 hours ago
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religeon, Art. 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, signed by John Adams, president of the United States, UNANIMOUSLY ratified by the US Senate on June 10 1797!! So if the US is a Christian nation, why did the Government support and back this?
Billyyank1 2 days ago
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anthonyehooker 4 hours ago
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@Billyyank1 Article XI simply distinguished America from those historical strains of European Christianity which held an inherent hatred of Muslims; it simply assured the Muslims that the United States was not a Christian nation like those of previous centuries (with whose practices the Muslims were very familiar) and thus would not undertake a religious holy war against them.
anthonyehooker 4 hours ago
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@Billyyank1 The numerous documents surrounding the Barbary Powers Conflict confirm that historically it was always viewed as a conflict between Christian America and Muslim nations. Those documents completely disprove the notion that any founding President, especially Washington, ever declared that America was not a Christian nation or people.
anthonyehooker 4 hours ago
"There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half of the world fools and the other hypocrities" ~ Thomas Jefferson
GB26007 5 days ago
you will only find 10 out of over 250 founders who were not Christian, or at least believed in Christianity.
anthonyehooker 6 days ago
Patrick Henry
Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
--The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.
anthonyehooker 6 days ago
Alexander Hamilton
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution
"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."
--Famous American Statesmen, p. 126.
anthonyehooker 6 days ago
“We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments.”
- James Madison
“Religion [is] the basis and foundation of Government”
- James Madison
“Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ.”
- James Madison
anthonyehooker 1 week ago
“I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law … There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.”
- Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, Harvard Speech, 1829
“[The Bible] is the rock on which our Republic rests.”
- Andrew Jackson
anthonyehooker 1 week ago
God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever.
- Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Memorial
The Christian religion is the best religion that has ever been given to man
- Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Memorial
anthonyehooker 1 week ago
“The only foundation for . . . a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.”
- Benjamin Rush signer of the Declaration
“The rights essential to happiness. . . . We claim them from a higher source — from the King of kings and Lord of all the earth.”
- John Dickinson signer of the constitution
anthonyehooker 1 week ago
It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.- Patrick Henry
John Jay, First Chief-Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court
Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty – as well as privilege and interest – of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.
- John Jay
anthonyehooker 1 week ago
“Congress passed this resolution: “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.”
- United States Congress 1782
“The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.” – John Adams
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
- John Adams
anthonyehooker 1 week ago
James Madison said: “Before any man can be considered as a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the universe—religion is the basis and foundation of government.”
Congress printed a Bible for America and said:
“The United States in Congress assembled … recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States … a neat edition of the Holy Scriptures for the use of schools.”
anthonyehooker 1 week ago
"the most free country ever to have existed" i face palmed sooooooooooo much.. It's ridiculous!
TheRedNations 2 weeks ago
The founding fathers warned against having any alliance with any nation. They said be friends to all but have alliances with none. Today we see America in "special relationships" with Great Britian and Israel. I would like to know where in history does the founding fathers tell Americans to be in these relationships?? where are the documents?
GB26007 3 weeks ago
The founding fathers were Deists.. they believed in a God, but they did not believe in the God as Christians commonly understand. They believed in Natural Law and Natures God, they were philosophers and studied all the classical writings of Ancient Greece and Rome. Americans who teach this Christian nation stuff are traitors and liars
GB26007 3 weeks ago
@GB26007 you are so wrong Maybe 2 were deist. 29 held seminary degrees. check out THEIR words. not some professor who lived 200 years later. The founders writings are so much more revealing and interesting.
anthonyehooker 1 week ago
@anthonyehooker No i am so right... when the founding fathers are talking about "Creator endowed rights" ie God given rights.... they are talking about God in the broadest sense. They are not talking about any particular religions version of God, ie not Jehovah of the bible. If you believe in the bible, then YOUR "creator endowed rights" would come from Jehovah, but that doesn't mean somebody else believes there God given rights has came from the same particular creator.
GB26007 1 week ago
@GB26007 Look at all their quotes about "Jesus" there are many and you can find them easy. They talk about Christianity. Jesus is God. the only God.
anthonyehooker 1 week ago
@anthonyehooker Yes Jesus is YOUR God, but that doesn't give you the right under the US Constitution to force that belief on anybody else. The US Constitution forbids any national religion been established, it gives personal freedom to worship the God of your choice. Without the Constitution you couldn't be a Christian and Jesus would not be your God. The Constitution gives and protects those "Creator Endowed Rights" given by "Natures God"
GB26007 6 days ago
@GB26007 I would never FORCE my beliefs on anyone. But Jesus is the God that the Founding fathers believed in. THEY are the ones that called this a CHRISTIAN NATION.
anthonyehooker 6 days ago
@anthonyehooker The founding Fathers hated Christianity as you know it. Thomas Paine write a whole booklet condemning it. Thomas Jefferson was so disgusted by the bible he tore it up and write his own version!. George washington and Benjemin Franklin were both Deist Freemasons. You can't change history... the Christian nation propaganda you spread is lies and deception
GB26007 6 days ago
@GB26007 Washington only attended 4 Masonic meetings. He said the free masons was the most dangerous thin in America.
Ben Franklin said "As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and His religion as He left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see"
Jefferson said "I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others."
anthonyehooker 6 days ago
@anthonyehooker Ok if America is a Christian Nation, why is there a Egyptian Sun Obelisk in the nations capital? Why is there in Washington a painting of all the Ancient Pagan Gods with George Washington sitting among them as a God!. Why does the Constitution say "Natures God" and not "Jehovah"?. Why is all the architecture around Washington DC classical Greek and Roman? Why did Thomas Jefferson tear his bible up and write his own? Why did Thomas Paine write the "Age of Reason"?.
GB26007 6 days ago
@GB26007 Jefferson did not TEAR it up. he just wrote what he called something like a commentary. Thomas Paine was NOT a Christian. I never said they were ALL christian. Why do you have such a problem with so many of them being Christians? 29 of the founders graduated from seminary. One was a baptist Preacher.
anthonyehooker 6 days ago
@anthonyehooker i haven't got a problem with Christianity, i have a problem with you saying America is a Christian nation when it is not. Even a "Atheist" in America has "Creator Endowed rights" weather he/she wants to believe it or not, when you are born you are born with certain fundemental rights in nature, they are the "right to life " the right to own property and the right to pursue happiness.
GB26007 5 days ago
@GB26007 It's not me saying this is a Christian Nation. The founding fathers said it, the Supreme Court said it. Those were here when the nation was founded. Are You denying what the people who created this nation said? That takes alot of stupidity.
anthonyehooker 5 days ago
@anthonyehooker no they did not, they hated christianity. They were all Deists, Washington, Franklin, Paine, Jefferson. Nature's God is not Jehovah, Jehovah is not the God of creation (this world) in the bible, Satan is!. So you have come to a dead on, you know full well America is not a christian nation
GB26007 5 days ago
@GB26007 you do not know your bible. Jesus Created everything that is made. Read chapter 1. 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
this is speaking of Jesus.
anthonyehooker 5 days ago
@GB26007 I have no problem calling Jehovah "Natures God" after all He is.
anthonyehooker 6 days ago
@anthonyehooker the God the Founding Fathers believed in was "Natures God"... it is a pre ~ Christian Pagan philosophy.
GB26007 6 days ago
@GB26007 George Washington
1st U.S. President
"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.
anthonyehooker 6 days ago
@anthonyehooker No nation can ever be a Christian nation. Jesus is not the God of this world!... jesus does not concern himself with nations or governments, his kingdom is not of this world. The God you seem to be worshipping is the God of this world!!!... and we all know who that is don't we?!!.
GB26007 6 days ago
The Founding Fathers created a Government where the Government was "subject" to the people, not the people "subject" to the government. It was the first time in history it had ever been done. The Government of the United States is the Constitution and nothing more, the constitution limits the government on what it can and can't do. The establishment of a national or state religion is forbidden by the Constitution. The founding fathers knew the dangers of mixing church and state
GB26007 3 weeks ago
Lies, deception and propaganda... America is not a Christian Nation, it was founded on the principle of Natural Law and Natures God. America is a secular Government created on the principle that Man has CREATOR ENDOWED RIGHTS and Man then forms Government to PROTECT those CREATOR ENDOWED RIGHTS. The founding fathers understood that Man does not get his "rights" from Government but Man is born with certain unalienable rights from the Creator. The founded fathers hated Christianity
GB26007 3 weeks ago
@GB26007 "Lies, deception and propaganda..." What did you expect coming from Christian Broadcasting Network? Clearly the story was slanted to lend credibility to the network's obvious bias.
TheMarkNessMonster 2 weeks ago
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anthonyehooker 4 weeks ago
WRONG.
"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society?In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny.In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people.Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries.A just government,instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty,does not need the clergy."
-James Madison,author of the American Constitution.
Trazen4 1 month ago
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anthonyehooker 1 month ago
check out this blog for a lot of info. americaschristianfounding dot blogspot dot com
anthonyehooker 1 month ago
The Declaration mentions God four times:
• “. . . the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s
God . . .”
• “all men are created equal, they are endowed
by their Creator with certain unalienable
rights . . .”
• “. . . appealing to the Supreme Judge of the
World for the Rectitude of our Intentions . . .”
• “. . . with a firm Reliance on the Protection of
Divine Providence . . .
anthonyehooker 1 month ago
@anthonyehooker It(the constitution) mentions the Christian god perhaps once, in the first quote you use, and even that is debateable. The rest are ambiguous enough to include pretty much every diety.
crazyinsane500 1 month ago
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And the general Principles of English and
American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and
which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient
to assert and maintain her Independence.”
anthonyehooker 1 month ago
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anthonyehooker 1 month ago
In 1813, John Adams wrote to Thomas Jefferson,
“The general Principles, on which the Fathers Achieved
Independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful
Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these
Principles only could be intended by them in their Address, or
by me in my Answer. And what were these general Principles? I
answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all those
Sects were united: (Continued)
anthonyehooker 1 month ago
Did you know that Congress spent tax money to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ? They also started the first Bible Society in America? John Jay (supreme court justice) was the president.
Congress also printed the first American Bible.
anthonyehooker 1 month ago
i love how the constitution resembles the iroquois constitution and if the founders believed evryone was equal, then why did they mistreat native Indians? Fucking liers! lmao
1492CrE8edBabylon 1 month ago
@1492CrE8edBabylon One of the first things congress did was spend tax money to reach the Indians for Christ. Does that sound like a nation not Christian?
anthonyehooker 1 month ago
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@anthonyehooker "One of the first things congress did was spend tax money to reach the Indians for Christ."
Can you confirm this without citing a biased source?
TheMarkNessMonster 2 weeks ago
America was founded on the principles of Rousseau and Locke, not the Bible. It's an absolutely disgusting insult to even insinuate such a thing. Once again, theists twist facts and fail to give credit where credit is due. Also, it is FACT that most of the founding fathers were agnostics or deists. Many of them hated Christianity. Pray to your "god" as much as you like theists, it's not going to change the fact that the U.S. is not and has never been a "Christian nation."
ciciomax 1 month ago
if the values of democracy & religious pluralism came directly from "christian tradition", Then WTF where Christians doing for 1700 years? our present political system & philosophy was formed as a direct consequence of Christians on Christian violence & persecution.motivated by sectarian bigotry, like what we see in northern ireland or in Iraq between shia & sunni Muslims.
Obasiliasfilosofos 1 month ago
Why did it only appear from European christian cultures,our history & its unique formation from a byproduct of events & influences, the memory of pre-christian traditions & particularly the experiment of democracy in ancient Athens & Rome, The religious polarization & ugly conflict during the reformation encouraged the religious divided nations to cease the practice of religious exclusion overtime.
Obasiliasfilosofos 1 month ago
"The Christian system of religion is an outrage on common sense." Thomas Payne. Founding father.
red666111 2 months ago
ok, 6 of the 7 founding fathers were deist.Franklin: "Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Thomas Payne: "The New Testament, they tell us, is founded upon the prophecies of the Old; if so, it must follow the fate of its foundation.'' "What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the belief of this debauchery is called faith." i can go on forever.
red666111 2 months ago
America is a Christian nation. like it or not.
God bless America!
gerinja 2 months ago
@gerinja How so? explain yourself. because your Constition says other wise.
chinhhhhh 2 months ago
@gerinja Dead wrong.
BrannonMcConkey 2 months ago
@gerinja no we are not
dragoblaze5 1 month ago
@dragoblaze5 yes, America is a Christian nation even if you don't like it
gerinja 1 month ago
@gerinja well can you explain to me how, do you think we are just because we defend Isreal
dragoblaze5 1 month ago
@dragoblaze5 Because Israel is God's chosen people. I believe America is the greatest nation in the world. I spent 6 yrs. in the marine corps to defend her. But I would fight for Israel against America if I had to choose, because I WILL NOT go against God's chosen people. God said He would bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel.
anthonyehooker 1 month ago
@anthonyehooker wow I am a christian for israel, don't get me wrong i sign the pleage cufi. I understand what the bible say about Israel I feel that israel should be defend even in there darkess hour I am all for that blessed nation and thank you for defending this great nation. I feel that the men and woman fight for this contry should get better rewards. What I am saying is how is this a christian nation thats all.
dragoblaze5 1 month ago
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anthonyehooker 2 months ago
''. . .back in 1891 when the US Supreme Court itself declared ''This is a Christian nation.''
I just love how some Christians take statments out of context. LOL
jfsfrnd 2 months ago
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@jfsfrnd: “I just love how some Christians take statments out of context. LOL”
Hey, WE can play that game, TOO! Observe (I’ll be more honest than them and properly indicate omissions with ellipses):
“…there is no God….” ← The HOLY BIBLE, a FULL DOZEN TIMES in the KJV (more in some other versions)!!
Deuteronomy 32:39; I Kings 8:23; II Kings 1:16 & 5:15; II Chronicles 6:14; Psalm 14:1 & 53:1; and Isaiah 44:6,8 & 45:5,14,21; plus Sirach 36:5 & II Esdras 8:58 in the KJV Apocrypha!
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
I think I'll just keep accepting what the founders said in their own writings. Let people keep trying to change it. it does not change what they wrote. Even Thomas Jefferson wrote in a letter "I am a Christian"
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker In which letter did Thomas Jefferson say ''I am a Christian''? Cite it.
jfsfrnd 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, You quoting just those four words from Jefferson’s letter without even quoting the rest of the SENTENCE, let alone PARAGRAPH, is JUST as dishonest (more so, since you didn’t use ellipses to indicate your omissions) as an atheist quoting the first sentence of Psalm 14:1 and 53:1, and skipping over the first seven words, so that it reads, “… there is no God.”
See? WE can play that game, TOO!
(That four-word clause appears a FULL DOZEN TIMES, INTACT, in the KJV!)
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@COMALiteJ I am man enough, and honest enough to, to admit I did not see the full quote. Thanks for sharing the full text with me.
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, You’re welcome. I, too, admit when I’m wrong, as per the “Mea Culpa” on confusing the Holy Trinity case. This ups my respect for you even more, as that sort of maturity and honesty seems to be exceedingly rare on the Internet.
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@COMALiteJ I am just in the past few months getting really interested in our History. The one thing I know better than anything else is the Bible. Now I'm not saying I know it all, no one does. But I have been preaching for 34 years and have put a lot of study into it. I believe Baptist doctrine is straight from the Bible. (now I do understand there are many variations of Baptist) I am Independent Baptist. One thing people don't seem to know. We are not Protestant.
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
@COMALiteJ Cont. We did not split from the Catholic Church. Even Martin Luther persecuted the baptist. Because we do not baptize infants. We Believe in "Believer's Baptism" One must have willingly accepted Christ as their Savior. In the Beginning of Americas History Baptist were locked up, exiled, and various other things for preaching this. That is where our Bill of rights came from. James Madison and a Preacher in VA.
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, Yes, I am aware of that (or, rather, the beliefs of certain Baptist sects that they’re part of some “remnant” of the Original Church of Jesus Christ — there are no hard historical records backing that claim up, but the usual explanation is that the Roman Catholics destroyed all such records, and indeed they would have had such ever existed).
That said, the term “Protestant” refers to any group formed by splitting off from an Originalist group such as the RCC.
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, (cont.) Martin Luther was NOT the first Protestant. He started the big Protestant Reformation, but groups had been splitting off from the Catholics centuries before.
Christian sects should probably best be categorized as follows:
• Originalist (RCC, Orthodox)
• Remnantist (Independent Baptist and others who claim to be a remnant of the Original Church)
• Protestant (split off from RCC or another Protestant sect)
• Restorationist (LDS, CofC [Scientist], etc.)
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, I will say that no Protestant sect has any logical claim of being the One (or even A) True Christian sect. There are only two possibilities, assuming that Christianity itself is at all true:
• The Roman Catholic Church is true.
• The Roman Catholic Church is false.
If the RCC is true, the Protestants would be heretical apostates. If false, the Protestants are fruit of an evil tree, and Jesus Himself said that an evil tree CANNOT bring forth good fruit!
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker ''That is where our Bill of rights came from. James Madison and a Preacher in VA''
It was Thomas Jefferson's that suggested it to Madison.
jfsfrnd 2 months ago
@jfsfrnd I think we may both be in agreement on the Christian Nation part. I believe that the constitution was written so that everyone, Christian, Muslim or even Atheist can live freely together without any punishment. As a Baptist and Christian, I believe that religion is a free choice. No one can be forced into Christianity, nor should they. The VA. preacher is was talking about was John Leland. There is a plaque on the side of the road where the meeting took place. CONT>
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker At the Virginia Constitutional Convention in 1776, Thomas Jefferson opposed general assessment taxes to support religion and proposed that dissenters be exempted from such taxes. When his proposal was blocked, Leland and the Baptists of Virginia felt that support of Jefferson's proposal was so urgent that they held a meeting on Christmas day of "an Association of Ministers and Delegates" and wrote a paper giving reasons for supporting Jefferson's proposal. CONT>
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker "No man or set of Men are entitled to exclusive or separate Emoluments or Privileges from the Community but in consideration of Public Services. If, therefore, the State provides a Support for Preachers of the Gospel, and they receive it in Consideration of their Services, they must certainly when they preach, act as Officers of the State and ought to be accountable thereto for their Conduct. . . .
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker the Consequence of this is, that those whom the state employs in its Service, it has a right to regulate and dictate to; it may judge and determine who shall preach; when and where they shall preach. The mutual obligations between Preachers and Societies they belong to . . . must evidently be weakened -- Yea, farewell to the last Article of the Bill of Rights! [The fourth article of the Virginia Declaration of Rights adopted in 1776].
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker Some think that this kind of support from Baptists prompted Jefferson write his "Act for Establishing Religious Freedom." When it was first introduced in 1779, Baptists were virtually alone in supporting it. The bill was reintroduced and passed in 1786 after James Madison's "Memorial and Remonstrance" opposing Patrick Henry's general assessment bill to provide for "Teachers of the Christian Religion" received wide circulation and acceptance throughout Virginia.
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion." The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of it's protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and infidel of every denomination.
Just like you said.
jfsfrnd 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker Yeah that's why Jefferson wrote this: from Autobiography - by Thomas Jefferson
The bill for establishing religious freedom, the principles of which had, to a certain degree, been enacted before, I had drawn in all the latitude of reason & right. It still met with opposition; but, with some mutilations in the preamble, it was finally passed; and a singular proposition proved that it's protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares that coercion
jfsfrnd 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, The FULL Jefferson quote that you (or your source) so dishonestly excerpted:
“To the corruptions of christianity [sic] I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the ONLY sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every HUMAN excellence, AND BELIEVING HE NEVER CLAIMED ANY OTHER.” [letter to Benjamin Rush — UPPERCASE emphasis mine]
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker (cont.), By “his doctrines,” Jefferson meant the MORAL TEACHINGS of Jesus, which he did consider the greatest of philosophies that MORTAL HUMAN BEINGS (which he believed Jesus to be no more than) had ever produced.
Note that he does NOT capitalize pronouns referring to Jesus (except when the first word of a sentence), as anyone who believed in His divinity would do (even I capitalize them out of respect for my former religion).
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, “I think I'll just keep accepting what the founders said in their own writings.”
I’m going to ask you what I asked 9pt9: have YOU PERSONALLY READ those writings from their PRIMARY sources? Or have you read some collection of Founding Fathers quotes (many of which aren’t even real) assembled for your consumption by the likes of David Barton and his Wallbuilders, Inc., or the likes of W. Cleon Skousen or his posthumous protegé Glenn Beck, etc. etc. etc.?
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@COMALiteJ I have been collecting the journals and personal writings of the founding fathers. I have the first history book written in america (1789) written by Dave Ramsay, From 1782 to 1786 he served in the Continental Congress, and from 1801 to 1815 in the state Senate, of which he was long president. I use documented material.
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, History books, even very early ones, are NOT PRIMARY sources. (A certain fake George Washington quote got its start from a flawed history book, but the quote as heard these days, and printed on T-shirts, mugs, bumper stickers, etc. [some “Christians” like to make money off of FAKE Founding Fathers quotes!] has been heavily altered even from that!). Journals, etc. are. Which ones do you have? Do you actually have the originals, or copies?
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@COMALiteJ copies of course. but almost all books are copies and we don't have trouble believing them.
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, Ack! I didn’t mean that to sound like I was disputing your copies. I was curious because you’d said that you collected Founding Fathers journals and other personal writings, and I merely wondered if that meant that you actually had some historically valuable originals in your possession. I apologize if that appeared to be an attack on your credibility. That was NOT what I intended.
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@COMALiteJ I have just started collecting them. I have one by George Washington. I am constantly looking for others. By the way I did not mean for my comment to come across like I thought you were doubting me, sorry about that. The rest are just partials.
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, Cool! I read the writings that are available on Google Books and similar public domain online libraries. Having a physical book in hand is so much better. :-)
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, (cont.) The ORIGINAL question I’d asked before was about whether you had the WHOLE writings (even as copies in published book form), or some books that EXCERPTED FROM them (or claimed to). I’ve come across a lot of the latter, and some of your posts here implied the latter, like when you said that Thomas Jefferson wrote, “I am a Christian” (he did, but went on to explain right in that same sentence that what he meant by that was very different from most).
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, David Barton in particular put out a memo (signed in his own handwriting) to his followers, alerting them to the fact that a dozen of the “Founding Fathers quotes” that he himself had previously popularized were “questionable” at best.
In the memo, he warned his followers against using them “at the SCHOLARLY level.” But, in the same memo, he said, “Fret not, the sun will still rise, and those quotes will inevitably CONTINUE to be heard AT THE •POPULAR• LEVEL!”
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, (cont.) Think about what he was saying there. He didn’t come right out and say it in so many words (plausible deniability and all that), but the intention is clear. Nudge-nudge, wink-wink.
Don’t use the FAKE quotes at the SCHOLARLY level, because, y’know, REAL scholars KNOW stuff, and might catch you in the lies. But please DO CONTINUE to use them AT THE POPULAR level, where less-educated people (e.g. school boards, politicians, etc.) won’t know what’s what!
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, Quite recently, YEARS AFTER he wrote that memo, he sat as a witness in Congress and listened as at least one of the quotes that HE PERSONALLY KNEW FOR A FACT was fake (it was one of the ones in his memo) was read into the Congressional Record as part of a Resolution! And he didn’t say a word! The VIDEO of this is RIGHT HERE ON YOUTUBE!!
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
Separation of Church and state is not in the Constitution. The founders meant that the Government could not establish a state religion. There is nothing in the constitution that says the church has to stay out of politics. It is not illegal for preachers to preach politics from the pulpit.
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker: “Separation of Church and state is not in the Constitution.”
That exact phrase? No. The concept? Yes. Twice, including once in the original UNAMENDED, PRE-Bill-of-Rights Constitition (“no religious test”).
“The founders meant that the Government could not establish a state religion.”
That, too, but the opposite as well. Jefferson chose his words carefully: “…a WALL of separation.…” NOT a door, gate, turnstile, etc. WALLS block passage in BOTH directions!
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
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@anthonyehooker, “There is nothing in the constitution that says the church has to stay out of politics.”
In the Constitution itself? Perhaps not, but in the laws established under the Constitution, yes, there is. The tax-exempt status of churches is to do precisely that. If they are not called upon to contribute to the government, they are not empowered to interfere with it. Taxpaying citizens are empowered to participate in politics partly because they do pay taxes.
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
On top of the Washington Monument is the inscription "Laus Deo" which means "Praise be to God". On the steps going up on the inside are written Bible verses. As you walk up the steps to the building which houses the U.S. Supreme Court you can see near the top of the building is Moses holding the Ten Commandment. There are Bible verses etched in stone all over the Federal Buildings and Monuments in Washington, D.C.
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker: “As you walk up the steps to the building which houses the U.S. Supreme Court you can see near the top of the building is Moses holding the Ten Commandment.”
First off, I notice you didn’t specify “MAIN entrance” like the chain Email you seem to be quoting that from says. Maybe that was because you were running out of 500 characters and so skipped some words, or maybe you knew better and were trying to be a bit more honest than that chain mail.
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, (cont.) As it so happens, that photo shown in that Email is of the REAR entrance, NOT the MAIN entrance.
Secondly, the photo is cropped misleadingly. Yes, Moses is there, but so are Confucius and Solon, two other ancient lawgivers, and they are NOT deferring to Moses.
We have the ACTUAL WORDS of the ACTUAL ARTIST who ACTUALLY DESIGNED those friezes, both outside and inside the Supreme Court building, as to what they ACTUALLY mean. The chain mail LIES!
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker: Furthermore, the Supreme Court building itself does NOT date back to the Founding Fathers. Neither do ANY of those monuments you speak of (that’s why they’re called “monuments” — they’re in MEMORIAL to great men who had ALREADY passed away by the time they were designed, let alone built). They cannot be used as evidence for what the FOUNDING FATHERS, who never clapped eyes on ANY of them, actually wanted.
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, (cont.) To be specific, the U.S. Supreme Court building was built in 1935. That’s OVER A THIRD of the way into the TWENTIETH CENTURY! There are still THOUSANDS of American citizens, many still of sound mind and memory, who were TEENS or even ADULTS when that was built! They REMEMBER it being built! We already had COLOR MOVIES and even B&W TELEVISION and early JET AIRPLANES then!
Most of the Founders’ GRANDKIDS were LONG since dead by then!
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, (cont.) The Jefferson Memorial in particular has engraved on it several quotes that Jefferson himself NEVER actually said nor wrote, plus others spliced together from multiple sources and juxtaposed in ways to 180° DIAMETRICALLY REVERSE his intended meaning (like quoting the New Testament as follows: “And Judas went, and hanged himself. Jesus saith, Go, and do thou likewise.”) designed to make him look more Christian than he really was.
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
The constitution says congress shall make NO LAWS concerning religion or the exercise thereof. That means the state can't force any kind of religion on anyone. You have just as much right not to worship as I have to worship.
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
Liberals love to say the founding fathers were deist and atheist. TWO were Deist. The others were members of Presbyterian, Congregational, and other churches. Several were graduates of Seminary.
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker 24 to be exact!!
9pt9 2 months ago
@9pt9 You can not honestly name 24. You can look at the facts and see what church they were a member of.
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, “Several were graduates of Seminary.”
True, but that word did not mean then what it does today. It simply meant “college.” It did NOT mean solely an institute of RELIGIOUS higher learning, as it does today.
Words change meaning over time, sometimes pretty quickly. Before the mid-1980s (a mere ¼ century ago, well within the ADULT memories of ½ the population!), if someone said “going postal,” they were talking about how they were shipping a parcel somewhere.
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
What about the declaration of independence it came years before the Constitution. God is mentioned in it. What about the Treaty of Paris. The trinity is mentioned in it. And why did Congress vote to start a church in the capitol in 1800. Thomas Jefferson even had the Marine Corps band play for the Hymns during the worship service. What about the Supreme Court stating that America is a Christian nation.
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker All the FACTS in the world wont change their minds.
"one convinced against his will is of the same opinion still"
9pt9 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, “What about the declaration of independence it came years before the Constitution. God is mentioned in it.”
Only by generic Deist euphemistic terms: “nature’s God,” “divine Providence,” “supreme Judge,” and “their Creator.” Had Jefferson meant the Judeo-Christian God, he would’ve written, “The LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob” or “The LORD Sabaoth of Hosts.” Had he wanted to be Christian-specific, he would’ve written, “Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, “What about the Treaty of Paris. The trinity is mentioned in it.”
The Treaty of Paris was in 1783. The Constitution wasn’t ratified until 1787. Article VI ¶2 only makes Treaties that are ratified UNDER THE CONSTITUTION (NOT the miserably failed Articles of Conferderation) into the SUPREME Law of the Land, jointly with the Constitution itself. So, the Treaty of Tripoli IS, and the Treaty of Paris is NOT.
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker: “Thomas Jefferson even had the Marine Corps band play for the Hymns during the worship service.”
No, he didn’t. That’s a myth at best that has very little basis in truth, and grew into its current form by a chain of sources, each expanding on what came before (like a game of “telephone”), and has been very thoroughly debunked.
Oh, and the church services themselves are questionable at best, too.
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker: “What about the Supreme Court stating that America is a Christian nation.”
As I have already repeatedly said in this thread, it wasn’t the UNITED STATES Supreme Court that ruled that (in the Holy Trinity case). It was the STATE Supreme Court of ILLINOIS, which of course has NO JURISDICTION nor LEGAL STANDING to make any ruling of that sort about the USA as a whole. Their power and authority ends at the Illinois State line.
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@COMALiteJ yout are incorrect. It was the United States Supreme court. Justice David Josiah Brewer Associate Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court for 20 years. Wrote the statement we are discussing.
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, Yes, he wrote that, but NOT in an actual UNITED STATES Supreme Court decision. He was part of the Illinois STATE Supreme Court at the time, and was also a Christian wannabe theocrat who later in his writings (e.g. in his book, “The United States: a Christian Nation” [©1905 the John C. Winston co.] which is HIS PERSONAL BOOK, and NOT any decision of ANY Supreme Court, U.S. OR Illinois!) wrote statements such as you described. He was a David Barton of his day.
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@COMALiteJ sorry, wrong again, he was on the supreme court. Brewer was confirmed by the Senate on December 18, and received commission the same day, joining a court that included S. J. Field, his uncle. He served on the court for 20 years, until his death in 1910.
He was not on the Illinois court at the time
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, Ooops! Mea culpa. The Church of the Holy Trinity case was indeed the US Supreme Court with Justice Brewer, but the statement often used is from the Illinois State S.C. case Richmond vs. Moore, 1883:
“Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of The Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian….”
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, (cont.) Even that, though, is out of context. Here’s the complete paragraph:
“Although it is no part of the functions of our system of government to propagate religion, and to enforce its tenets, when the great body of the people are Christians, in fact or sentiment, our laws and institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise.—
(cont.)
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, (cont.)
“—And in this sense, and to this extent, our civilization and institutions are emphatically Christian, but not for the purpose of compelling men to embrace particular doctrines or creeds of any church, or to support one or another denomination by public burthens [sic], but simply to afford protection to all in the enjoyment of their belief or unbelief.”
As you can see, the full paragraph says something quite different than the commonly heard excerpt.
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@COMALiteJ Let me say that I believe everyone has the right to be what they want to be. That does not take away the fact that America was founded on Biblical principals. The founders quoted the Bible more than they quoted any other source. I spent six years in the Marine Corps to defend a persons right to be a Christian or an Atheist. I believe one hundred percent in Religious Freedom, or even freedom form Religion. I just don't want to see anyone die and go to Hell.
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
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@anthonyehooker: “I spent six years in the Marine Corps to defend a persons right to be a Christian or an Atheist.”
Thank you, thank you, thank you! I mean that very sincerely. Thank you for willingly putting your life on the line to defend my freedoms. That goes to all who serve — they have my utmost respect.
“That does not take away the fact that America was founded on Biblical principals [sic].”
Show me these UNIQUELY Biblical principLEs in the Constitution.
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, Re: your service to our nation: /watch?v=5pfBUUZNbFM
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@COMALiteJ thanks, enjoyed the video.
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, You’re welcome. :-)
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, Back to the Holy Trinity case of the U.S. Supreme Court, with Associate Justice D. J. Brewer.
Turns out that the statements about Christianity therein are all what is legally called “dicta” (look it up in a dictionary of law [singular: “dictum”]), which means views UNRELATED to the actual case, which can be used to persuade, but which are NOT part of the actual judgment and which CANNOT be used as any sort of legally binding precedent.
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
“In the Year of Our Lord.” Oh, please. That was the standard formal dating nomenclature of the time for formal documents (which the Constitution most definitely was) — literally, the English translation of the Latin phrase “Anno Domini,” abbreviated as “A.D.” in informal documents.
If you’re going to harp on that one word used to denote the era of the year, what about the REST of the date? Over ½ of our months are named after either Roman gods, or two Roman Cæsars who were held to be man-gods.
COMALiteJ 3 months ago
(cont.)
To be specific: January (Janus) through June (Juno) are named after Roman gods. July is named after Julius Cæsar, and August after Augustus Cæsar, both of whom were considered demigods.
ALL of the days of the wek are named after either generic pagan (SUNday and MOoNday), Norse (Trewes’ Day, Woden’s Day, Thor’s Day, and Frig’s Day), or Roman (Saturn’s Day) gods.
So, by THAT logic, the USA is a PAGAN nation, since the Constitution closes with a date in a system using those!
COMALiteJ 3 months ago
FACT: The founders made it ILLEGAL for atheists to serve in government.
There is nothing secular about that. It's called ANTI-secular. If you were an atheist you were prohibited from working in government and from testifying in a court of law.
Mr88playmaker 3 months ago
The reason every theist AND atheist officially and legally recognizes GOD (see founding document and all 50 state constitutions etc) is because without God you have NO inalienable rights.God is our sole granter of rights and liberties. We are a nation founded upon DISTRUST in human rulers.
Mr88playmaker 3 months ago
@Mr88playmaker, “…because without God you have NO inalienable rights.God is our sole granter of rights and liberties.”
Nope. The term in the Declaration is “endowed by THEIR CREATOR with certain unalienable Rights…”. Jefferson chose his words carefully. He used GENERIC terms for deity in that and all three of the other references to the generic functions of deity in the Declaration. He did NOT write, “Our Lord Jesus Christ,” nor “The LORD Sabaoth of Hosts,” etc.
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@COMALiteJ The Bible plainly says JESUS is the creator. John Chapter 1 verses 1-3" 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." The Word is Jesus Christ
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
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@anthonyehooker, “The Bible plainly says JESUS is the creator.”
I know. Read my post again: This is about what THOMAS JEFFERSON, author of the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, meant by that term AS USED THEREIN. This isn’t about what the Bible says.
You may recall that Jefferson made his own version of the Bible which has ONLY the MORAL TEACHINGS of Jesus (which he considered the greatest philosophy ever), but omits ALL miracles, ALL claims to divinity or even Messiahhood, etc.
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@Mr88playmaker, (cont.) It IS true that atheism was generally considered intellectually untenable at the time, which is why deism was so popular: it was as close to atheism as one could get in these days before Darwinian (or even pre-Darwinian, e.g. Lamarckian) evolution, the Big Bang Theory (or even the Steady-State Theory that it replaced).
That said, Jefferson’s point with “endowed by their Creator” was that Rights are NOT GRANTED to us, but are INHERENT IN US.
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@Mr88playmaker, (cont.) He wanted to make plain that the Rights do NOT come from the GOVERNMENT, but that ALL Persons already HAD Rights, endowed by whoever OR WHATEVER created Persons. Whether that was Elohim of Genesis Chapter 1, or YHWH of Genesis Chapter 2, or some pagan god or gods, or even Darwinian evolution (of course, Jefferson didn’t know about that, but the point remains that it DOES qualify as a Creator of Persons and thus their Rights), is IRRELEVANT to that.
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
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@Mr88playmaker: “The founders made it ILLEGAL for atheists to serve in government. There is nothing secular about that. It's called ANTI-secular. If you were an atheist you were prohibited from working in government and from testifying in a court of law.”
Flatly not true. It is true that some STATES did that, but the Constitution OVERRIDES that (Article VI ¶2 again).
So, about your use of the word “FACT” — well, this guy says it best:
/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
America is NOT a christian nation. Yes, it does make up 33% of America's religions, and is the most common in america, and infact christianity makes up the majority of the whole world, but that doesn't mean that we call this "the Christian Earth" do we? no
rockergirll13 3 months ago
"the idea that all human beings possess certain innate inalienable natural rights" is patently not a Christian principle. The idea of 'natural rights' is a product of secular humanist philosophy. The Bible condones, and even sets provisions over the practices of slavery and rape, the two most egregious violations of an individuals natural rights, save outright murder.
RebelWrestler45 3 months ago
@RebelWrestler45, “‘the idea that all human beings possess certain innate inalienable natural rights’ is patently not a Christian principle.”
Ayup. I challenge ANYONE to show me the word “right” in the Bible used in that sense. In the vast majority of its appearances, it merely means the opposite of “wrong” or “left.” In the few remaining appearances, it means something along the lines of a “right-of-way,” which is NOT an Inherent Right of Personhood.
COMALiteJ 3 months ago
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Well guess what. God does not exist.
redfoxbennaton 3 months ago
@Amphibient09 it is considered christian because that is what this country was founded on not because we are all christian
TheProsniper2 4 months ago
usa is not a christian nation, its a corrupted nation controlled by powerfull businessmen who are trying to erase religion and all they care about is money (money is power). the biggest christian nation in the world is brazil
SyriacBoy10 4 months ago
If America was a christian nation, we wouldn't have prisons - crimes would just be forgiven, wouldn't they? you know, turn the other cheek?
amphibient09 4 months ago
@amphibient09 Oh man. read the Bible. The bible teaches capitol punishment. God is Just. True, He is Love. But he is also Just. The will judge everyone. First on whether or not they have Accepted Jesus as their Savior. If not He will cast them into hell, Because That is where they chose, not him. Then he will judge the Christians according to their works. For rewards, not for where they will spend eternity.
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker: “The bible teaches capitol [sic] punishment.”
Yes, it does, but only for really serious crimes — like kids being stubbornly disobedient to their parents (Deuteronomy 21:18–21).
Oh, and if apostates preach in any city known to the Israelites, and people in that city even LISTEN to the apostates, the ENTIRE CITY is to be NUKED (or the nearest equivalent available in the technology of the time) and EVERY LIVING THING SLAIN — Deuteronomy Chapter 13.
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@COMALiteJ There are different dispensations in the Bible. The old testament is under the law as given to Moses. Today we are in the dispensation of Grace.
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, So, you were saying that it was EVER right and just to execute children painfully for disobeying their parents, or to wipe ENTIRE CITIES off the map, killing EVERYONE and destroying EVERYTHING therein, just because someone preached there and someone who lived there listened!?
Yes, I know what Dispensationalism is. It’s what most “born-again” “fundamentalist” Christians actually are, and it’s really an 18th-century American cult (like Mormonism).
COMALiteJ 2 months ago
@COMALiteJ haha. thats funny.
anthonyehooker 2 months ago
@anthonyehooker, What’s funny?
COMALiteJ 2 months ago