@XlopenX Sorry to tell you this but NSX was quote from Honda "OUR DREAM COME TRUE" coming from the company that speaks about the power of dreams. The NSX is faster than the s2k. MR layout with more power and just as light as the S2K with a longer more stable wheelbase that was design for high speed cornering. A civic has nothing compared to the engineering marvel of the NSX.
@c312eal What about double-wishbone suspension, VTEC, and PGM-FI? All of that came years before NSX...if it weren't for the Civic, and the earlier efforts in F1, there wouldn't be an NSX in the first place. And if Honda didn't start making cars with the original S-roadster, the S500, there wouldn't be an S2000 as well...know your roots.
@apexdna Well if you put it that way, to know your roots. Honda started off with the FR S500 So if the S500 didn't have an engine either will your civics. NSX technology was ahead of its time, what made the engine in the NSX special wasn't just VTEC. Variable valve timing wasn't invent by Honda. The C30A had titanium rods and a coated bore to make the engine super durable and high revving.
@apexdna Use your head man. Honda's best cars are FFs? I think even Honda would like to disagree. When Honda wants to get down to business and make as serious sports car, its a RWD. Either a FR or a FF. You're arguing that Honda's everyday car is better what Honda puts it's best effort into when making a sports car? You're insulting Honda. NSX and S2K are the 2 best Hondas made. One MR one FR. Not the different generation of civics not the integras.
@c312eal Sure, but again it's not what Honda excelled at the most, efforts aside. Best MR: any super car will do, let's not get into the details here. Best roadster: any English-based/inspired roadster, like Mazda Miata for example. Best FF: the Civic-based chassis. I hope that cleared it up for you...there's no car to car comparison here, it's strictly drivetrain(layout)-wise between car manufacturers.
@apexdna Stop using Miata when Honda's in house S2k smokes it. Honda excelled in making RWD cars. NSX revolutionized the auto industry even the super car industry. The S2K was being compared to the bum z4 and porsche boxster on top gear. Both praised as amazing cars with amazing driver feel to it. S2k was compared to the 350z. the Z is faster but ppl liked the s2k because it felt like a purer sports car. Honda's best were the NSX and s2k.
@NewVanillaBear you my friend do not knw wtf you are talking about,, k20 better then the f20? lol, y? the only thing the k20 has that the f20 doesnt is the ivtec, f20 has a better flowing head,mani,block,crank,pistons,rods,you name it, and each are hand put together, s2k engine>k20! im not saying the k20 engine is crap, cus its far from that, its a amazing motor as well,
@apexdna im actully in that line of work, the company i work for, we do alot of fab work on already excisting set ups, and so far from what we know, learned, thats pretty much the only thing the k2o has on the f20... ivtec, stock for stock it wouldnt even be a fight, modded k20 do put down more cus of it, but a f20 with the ivtec kit blows everything out the water, 30 + hp on just adding the kit alone, ty, you have been schooled.
@monster2000k Even then, K-series still has better aftermarket support which says a lot about the engine, especially considering that the best Hondas are FFs imho and swapping a F20C into FF chassis isn't feasible, am I correct? Anyways, it's like comparing a D16A6 to a Z6, sure Z6 is better out the box, but A6 has that much bigger potential, so in the end A6 wins, and that's with the head comparison alone...but I do have to admit I AM new to the newer stuff tho, no pun intended.
@apexdna Because the K20 is a new engine that the F20C. It has new technology ex iVTEC vs VTEC. And stock wise the F20C still makes more power and revs higher. If equipped with the iVTEC kit, the F20C will be even better.
@c312eal Just because the engine is making more power from the factory does NOT make it a BETTER engine OVERALL...there's so many other factors to consider, beginning with aftermarket support and all the way to the actual usage of the motor, both by the manufacturer and the public.
@apexdna I have a b16a in my civic. I'm not saying that but titanium rods and fiber coated bores were unheard of when the NSX came out. The C30A is a racing engine too. It was used for racing by Honda.
@apexdna Compare them to the RA 168? The 168 was a turbo and these engines are N/A. They're not even the same aspiration. It's a V6 compared to your L4. Infact even the principles of the 168 are different than your engines. When Honda puts effort into something they're trying to make their best car. Their best efforts were the NSX and the S2K both which were praised highly. NSX being their flagship. NSX best 2nd is S2K. See ya rice boy. Have fun getting smoked in your FF.
@c312eal "When Honda puts effort into something they're trying to make their best car."
They've made the best FFs the world has ever knew. I'm not ragging on the NSX or S2000, I'm far from it...for example, if I could afford a proper MR, why would I buy an NSX when I can buy a McLaren F1? The best MR ever made.
@apexdna Because the McLaren F1 was based on the NSX. The NSX is a lot cheaper, cheaper to maintain and more reliable. When Gordon Murray was designing the F1 he test drove ferraris porsches lambos and the NSX. And nothing impressed him like the NSX and he wanted the F1 to be like the NSX but better. He approached honda 1st to make an engine for the F1 but honda turned him down and he went to BMW. Learn you roots boy. Really funny how you drew up F1 vs NSX. Gordon Murray owned an NSX btw LOL
@c312eal With that thought process, an '86 Si with D15A is better than the latest CTR, since you can trace the history of the current K20A down to the early EW/D15 engines...you admit that the best MR is the McLaren F1, and NOT the NSX, then why not accept that best Hondas (drivetrain-layout-wise) are FFs...I don't think there's a bigger category to which to judge upon.
@apexdna Well if you want to keep trace then. All these engines are passed down by the S500 engine and FR. Doesn't prove that your FFs are the best Hondas. A car isn't measured just by the layout. It's everything working together that makes a car. Best Honda ever is the NSX.
@apexdna And just to tell you an engine's potential could ONLY be used to the max with the proper layout. The engine's job is to provide power to the wheels and the wheels to the road for maximum speed. The K20A potential isn't used to the max by a FF but by FR or MR cars. For example, the Helise. Lotus elise toyo engine swapped for the Honda K20A. With this a Elise is able to keep up to with even porsches on tracks. But it doesn't prove that the civic ff chassis are the best honda chassis.
@c312eal First of all, K20A is an FF engine. And second, since Honda has excelled at FFs more than any other car manufacturer, makes it the best Honda engine ever made...
@apexdna No K20A is an engine that Honda put into a FF car BUT it could be used for different application. Engine potential doesn't represent a drivetrain's potential. Drivetrain and engine are in separate categories. Get your facts straight. I can take a FF engine and put into an MR. I can also take an MR engine and put it into a FF. I've been in an accord with a C30A. True the K20 is probably one of the best engines Honda made but doesn't meant Honda's best cars are FF.
@c312eal Not necessarily, as there were some close shots in the past. Cars like the Nissan Primera, which was very successful in touring car championships, equipped with FR-based SR20 and double-wishbone suspension. Toyota's FF AE-chassis with F1-derived 4AGE, one of the few motors with 5-valves-per-cylinder (found only on cars like the Ferrari F355). FF Alfa Romes, which were just as successful in touring car racing, with interesting suspension setups. Peugeot 200-series and others...
@apexdna LOL the 4AGE is not F1 derived. The 4AGE was made WAY before Toyota joined F1. Prior to 2002, Toyota had no F1 experience therefore the old 4AGE was not related to F1. Infact road vehicles engines are nothing like F1 engines. If you drove an F1 engine like a road car, it'd break.
@c312eal I meant Formula Atlantic, which is not that far-fetched from the Formula 1 you know.
"Infact road vehicles engines are nothing like F1 engines. If you drove an F1 engine like a road car, it'd break."
Do you not understand the word "derived"? Wow, your English IS bad. No wonder you keep on arguing (that's not reasoning btw)...or maybe you purposefully keep on misunderstanding to KEEP ON arguing. What a drama queen.
@apexdna Formula Altlantic is not that far-fetched from F1? LMFAO open wheel vs closed wheel. Road car chassis vs machines built purely for speed. Sorry you don't know jack shit. 4AGE derived from F1 LMFAO That's the funniest thing I heard. Oh you're losing the battle and going to get super technical now with english LOL I understand derived quite well. I don't think you understand what F1 is. Your sense of cars is horrible. What a pathetic wannabe car enthusiast. You really no nothing.
I wonder why Honda never made a S2000 Type R... that would've been sweet! I mean the Type S/CR isn't really made in the same way as a Type R car. I think that the result of something like that would've been interesting to see
Forget about Mugen's and Modulo's FD2s and their drivers, the Drift King and Hattori aka "FF Master"...the fact that a factory FD2 was faster than both S2000s @ Tsukuba, the mecca of time attack, is telling us something, especially considering the fact that S2000s have double-wishbone suspension all around (versus just the rear in FD2).
what is it with a lot of youtube kids and the word "Civic", it could be the greatest car ever made but call it a Civic and there little brains just won't accept it. Also this long standing notion off all RWD being better than any FWD, its just stupid.
Why the Civics won hear with comparable power i might add, is because they are the first true type r civics in ten years. Type R means something its not just a badge, on a touge the S2k would win but on a race track a true Type R is in its element
@timmyXx101xX Apples to oranges, my friend. An S2000 was created to celebrate the Honda's 50th anniversary, and as a tribute to the first Honda automobile, the S500. But you're right, both drivetrain layouts have their own advantages and disadvantages, whether it's power or handling. Type Rs came from SiRs which came from Si's. The F1-derived VTEC first appeared in 1989 on a Civic-based chassis.
why all the hating in the end it is all honda so it doesnt matter who win if you are a true honda lover why can you not enjoy the video like these bastard that act like a kid driving in these cars that i would love to own
@beaudiggler Drive one and you'll spin out then find out that RWD is much harder to control. You must have great pedal work and the car must have a great balance of power and handling. If the balance is off, the driver will have a hard time flooring it. Even if you boost the power, that actually might make it worse if your handling doesnt match that power
@iknowcarsbetterthanu No, I'm talking about the best, period. Who made a better FF than Honda? Nobody. Sure S2000 is ONE of the best FRs out there, but it's NOT the best FR ever made...even if we rounded it out to an "FR roadster", Miata still takes the prize.
@apexdna well yes when you put it like that it is true. A honda ff outclasses its competition better than a honda fr. I thought you meant something like a civic is better than an s2k
@iknowcarsbetterthanu To some extent...but that strictly depends on how you look at it tho, because if you believe that FR is better than FF - then yes, S2000 is better than any FF Honda has ever made. BUT if you were to ask what is a better Honda? Then by all means, the Civic-based chassis (including Integras) takes the prize...
@apexdna that is for sure but unfortunately, best to me is strictly down to performance capability on a race track. So in that retrospect most fr's are better than the civic. But thats just my opinion.
@iknowcarsbetterthanu Again, not necessarily. Most factory FRs tend to understeer like pigs anyways. Drivetrain layout has very little to do with the actual handling of the car. Both drivetrain layouts have their advantages/disadvantages...some of the best rally and touring cars, are FFs. Honda won both 2010 & 2011 BTCC in their Euro Civic (which isn't that great to begin with).
@apexdna yes they both have advantages and disadvantages. But a tuned fr can put more power down better than any tuned ff. All high end circuit cars are rwd. But ff's are usually lighter than fr's so in competitions where the max power isnt too high like in some rallies and hill climbs ff's can out do fr's.
@iknowcarsbetterthanu Very true. FFs also have less power loss thru drivetrain. And by rally, I mean Group A, and later, the WRC - the pinnacle of automotive racing. Even Formula 1 can be traced back to the rally racing, which lent a lot of it's technologies to Honda road cars (namely FFs) in the late '80s/early-'90s...the VTEC, the double-wishbone suspension, and programmed fuel injection all came from Honda's efforts in Formula 1 during those years as an engine supplier.
@apexdna Funny thing is the NSX was made and designed inspired by F1. It was to celebrate their success of F1 having direct input from the F1 legend Senna. NSX embodies Honda's F1 effort. These technologies were implemented into the NSX before it was trickled down to the FFs of Honda.
@c312eal Yet "top 3" technologies borrowed from F1, the (1) double-wishbone suspension and (2) PGM-FI was found as early as 1985 in Accords, with (3) VTEC in the 1989 Civic SiR, a whole year before the release of NSX in 1990...
@apexdna But none of those cars had the spirit of formula one. Accord doesn't Civic doesn't. The NSX was Honda's (I quote) "Our Dream come true" Honda doesn't refer to the civic as that. They never asked Senna for his direct input in making a civic because at the end of the day the civic was a casual car and the NSX was the serious sports car. Notice when Honda decides to make a SERIOUS sports car they go RWD?
@apexdna Under 300hp FF has a chance. But no matter what FR's advantages are greater. FF adds addition wear on the front tires. Think about it you're using 2 tires to do all your work load, accelerating, braking, and turning. That's some stress and wear on the tires. FF also has a acceleration disadvantage compared to FR. Every time you corner exit its like a restart and acceleration starts all over again. FR has an advantage at that time too.
@c312eal I'm not gonna argue that FR is overall a better drivetrain layout, but again it depends solely on the application. There are only a handful of people that have mastered the FF layout, and to majority it's still a mystery...that textbook definition you gave me is nothing more than a theory from an FR perspective.
@apexdna The best racing drivers in the world prefer FR or anything RWD over a FF. My definition is not just a theory, it's the laws of physics that you cannot escape. You accelerate the weight of your car transfer to the rear, the front lose traction and therefore you lose acceleration. It's also fact that MRs accelerate better than FRs due to more weight in the back.
@c312eal At the same time FRs lose stability and therefore the amount of power that can be used. Quit using the "extremes". It's all about setup more than anything else. Professional racing drivers have almost no say when it comes to choosing the drivetrain layout, they're hired to race in whatever car based on regulations of said race. In grassroots racing, the Civic-based chassis does quite well against one of the best FRs imho, the Miata, in SCCA's near-stock ST class.
@apexdna FRs lose stability? Yes FRs lose stability at the limit but a FF could not even reach close to the limit of an FR. You have more options setting up a FR than you do a FF. You can manage a FR better than a FF. Professionals racers do get a say in interviews when they test cars. Racing team engineers choose RWD over FF because of RWD advantages. Like I said FF wears out tires more in a race. You said the civics does quite well against a Miata? s2k beats the miata all day.
@apexdna Well the s2k is a better roadster that the miata. MX5 is 2.0 and s2k is 2.0. They've been compared to before and the S2k raped it on track and on driving feel. They're in the same class imo. Both compact roadsters. Both 2.0L.
@c312eal S2000 weights 6-700 pounds more than the Miata. The original statement read: the Civic is dominant in SCCA's ST class against Miatas. There was no mention of the S2000. You wanna make it sound like the Civic directly competed with the S2000, You know, and I know, that they didn't - so why keep on bringing it up? Again, and again, and again...it's getting old quite frankly.
@apexdna The extremes? You're using extremes saying that FR's lose stability. Only time it does is when you go over the limit and in extreme situations. Now I'm going to say FF's lose reliability. Why because of the tires. We all know how important tire strategy is in racing. FR turn and brake with front. Accel with rear. 4 tires all sharing loads. FF front tires take all the load. Only when you go extreme will you see which one is better. Racing and performance are extremes.
@apexdna You day. You said I'm using extremes. when you yourself said FR loses stability. Damn that corvette in that won in Le Mans this year was pretty damn stable to me. It ran 24H and was still going like a rocket.
@apexdna Of course drivetrain has A LOT to do with actual car handling? are you nuts? MRs are known to oversteer and are scary to drive in rain and snow conditions. 4WD is known for understeering but being able to have amazing traction while cornering. FF is known for its characteristics for understeer no matter how well you tune it these characteristic will show at the car's limit.
@c312eal That's because the rear wheels in a rear-wheel-drive HELP the car to steer i.e. rotate.
"4WD is known for understeering...
The FR-based R32-34 GT-Rs beg to disagree. You've been watching too many EVO/STi's, which are based on terrible FFs (compared to Honda's).
And again, you're looking at FFs from an FR perspective, FFs can use power where FRs can't and vice versa...although I must admit that FRs can use more power (%) as power (hp) and speed levels increase.
@apexdna I'm not looking at FFs and FR from perspective but from physics. 4WD's do understeer. The R32s and R34s are known for understeer because of their overall heavy weight and heavy front load.
@c312eal"The R32s and R34s are known for understeer because of their...heavy front load."
The R32/33/34-chassis has a close to a 50/50 weight distribution, just like any other FR car...but you should've knew that already. All you do is argue over the things you have no prior knowledge of.
@apexdna close to but it's still a front heavy car. Especially after tuning you can't really lighten the front much because of that iron block I6. Look at the Zenkei R32 compared to the stock. The rear end was able to lighten drastically but not the front. Another point is the ATTESA. You mentioned that FR's from factory understeer anyway, most cars from factory are tuned to understeer for safety reasons.You're complaining of ppl being FR drift fanboys but you yourself is being a stubborn FF fan
@c312eal Stubborn? I actually appreciate different makes, models, and sub-cultures, from Chicano lowriders and American hot rods to So-Cal Hondas and the vastly diverse Japanese car life (which does include drifting, so you don't get confused again). I just hate stupid fads. Go back to earlier comments and read what I've wrote before, because you're beginning to shove words into my mouth - things that I've either never said or quite the opposite. You're basically arguing with yourself.
@apexdna FR isn't a FAD, it's been around before even FF. I know what you mean with ppl oh I want FR lots of power and torque so i can slam on the gas and drift. I think thats american spirit. Theres an art to drifting and it doesn't have to be FR. I drift in the snow for fun with my FF. I rip the brake and have some sideways fun. What i really admire is drifting for speed. for example in rally.
@c312eal As of 2000s, it is. It's very trendy to hate on FFs. Most Americans don't drift, but they DO like their power, that's for sure. The current mainstream drift scene (both in the US and Japan) is joke. All they do is powerslide. Every drift technique is used in conjunction with "power over". But it's not what it used to be. It was like you've said, the art of getting sideways, whether it's an FF, FR, or AWD. While rally encompasses drifting, it is NOT drifting per say.
@apexdna I don't hate FF, just you love them so much that you're blind to everything else. FF isn't the greatest drivetrain. Its just easy to manufacture and easy to drive for everyday since factory cars are made to understeer and the characteristics of an FF tends to understeer. Rally drifting is drifting for speed. KT used drifting for speed and thats what made him the DK. Drifting started out on tough, kinda like tarmac rally.
@c312eal Where have I said that FF is the "greatest drivetrain" layout? Answer me. You're the one blind to appreciate the drivetrain layouts outside of your "comfort zone". I have no problems with RWDs, just the fanboys that drive them. All cars tend to understeer from the factory, not just FFs. A properly setup FF can handle just as good (or better in some situations) than a comparable FR, and NO, not better in the "extreme" examples that most of us won't experience anyways.
@c312eal Rally IS the pinnacle of automotive racing. Not only is it the oldest form of motorsport dating back to the late 1800s, but also the most demanding. It gave gave birth to Formula 1 in 1950s, and has seen a fair share of winning FF machines since then. And NO, not in Formula 1, before this stems into yet another misunderstanding.
@apexdna My friend I share you great passion in Hondas. Honda is the only one that could make the boring FF chassis fun and interesting. But FFs have no place at the pinnacle of automotive racing and performance. We are always moving forward and trying to make that pinnacle higher and higher and FF just won't be at the top. It'll be there but not at the top. FRs and MR and 4wd just have more potential.
@c312eal No place? Anything is possible. Have you heard of Bisimoto's 1004 hp 2012 Si? Or Javier Loarca's 1,125 whp EH hatchback? And for the millionth time, where have I said that FFs are any better than FRs that you have to go out of your way to repeat yourself? Anyways, once this FR dust settles, people will start experimenting with the different drivetrain layouts again like they did in the '90s...back then we had FF drag racing, FF drifting, FF touring cars.
@apexdna You can see the FF disadvantage too once its tuned. FF over 300hp is really not good on track while the FR s2k is still amazing. With over 300hp for a FF on acceleration you're just going to get tire spin because a the weight of the car goes to the back and the front becomes super light. The stress on the front tires will be overwhelming, braking turning and accelerating with the front tires. That's gonna kill your tires faster than a FR.
@c312eal You seem very confused. You can't use an FF like you would an FR in certain situations (and vice versa). Yet at the same time, there are a lot of ways you can use a similar method between the two drivetrain layouts to get a similar (end) result. Take a wheelie bar used in drag racing for example - there are traction bars made for FFs. They do the same job of planting the front (they even look the same), whether it's for stability (in FRs), OR traction (in FFs).
@iknowcarsbetterthanu Most FRs ARE better than FFs, what's your point? My original statement reads: the best Hondas are FFs and vice versa...have I said anything about the Civic-based chassis being the best car out there? NO.
@apexdna I think the best thing to say is that Honda makes the best FFs. But the best Honda's are def not FF's. Have you seen the top fuel s2k? or J's Racing S2k? J's Racing S2k murdered the Spoon FD2 Type R. And Every generation civic chassis is different. So theres no really CIVIC based chassis. The integra's are a complete different chassis family of its own. DC2 and DC5 and have nothing to do with the civics except they're both FF.
@c312eal That IS exactly what I've said. What I'm talking about is the double-wishbone equipped Civic-based chassis of the '90s. The Integra, and the Civic on which it is based on, and a few other models like the CR-X and del Sol. A lot of mechanical parts are interchangeable, from engine to suspension. DC2 is based on the EG6 and DC5 on EP3, they aren't all that different.
@apexdna In the racing world (racing = performance) FF can't really compete with the RWDs. Even in JGTC the FF cars had to be given advantages over the RWDs in order to keep them competitive just like how the NSX was given handicaps to let the supras and the gtrs keep up in Super GT. FFs exist because they are cheaper to manufacture and they lose less power to the wheel compared to RWD's but RWD's still accel more just like how 4wd loses the more power to RWD but still accels better.
@apexdna That means Honda's best FF's can't compete with FRs or MRs while NSXs were handicapped in order to give other cars a chance? get it? NSX > any Honda or Honda FF?
@apexdna I know it's hard for you to face reality but FFs are just not that good. Honda only makes FF because they're cheap to manufacture. With your logic I can argue that the best Toyota cars are FF because they're most successful with selling and making FF. They do sell more than Honda. Therefore they are the best FFs and FFs are they're best car. Sorry man LFA is Toyota's best car atm and their past best cars were not FFs either.
@c312eal Am I comparing FFs to FRs? NO. Why do you keep on bringing it up?
On the subject of Toyotas, the F1-derived 4AGE engine used in '90s FF Corollas is FR-based. Second, no F1-derived double-wishbone suspension used during those years (or at all) and is the main ingredient in making a proper FF car. It is what set Hondas apart from the rest.
Also, selling a product well does not always make it a good product.
@apexdna I don't care if you're comparing. Im saying Honda RWD > than Honda FF. Honda RWD has more potential, better engineered, faster, sportier than any Honda FF. ROFL F1 derived 4AGE? Are you stupid? The 4AGE was made WAY before toyota was in F1. Get your facts straight boy. Little 13 year old kid that doesn't know shit LOL F1 derived 4AGE, too much initial d for you little boy.
@c312eal I meant Formula Atlantic, which is not that far-fetched from the Formula 1 you know. Sheesh, relax little man. The NSX and the S2000 are not the best cars in their drivetrain layout category, that IS all. No need to get butt-hurt.
@apexdna But the RWD were the best Honda's. Honda happens to make the best lawn mower engines. Doesn't mean those mower engines are their BEST engines. It's the same with with cars. Honda makes the best FFs but doesn't mean Honda's best cars are FFs.
@c312eal We're talking about cars, drivetrain-layout-wise, not power equipment. Although Honda''s lawn mower engines do happen to be one of the most widely used "power equipment" engines, but let's not change the subject here, shall we? How many times do I have to repeat myself, before it starts to sink in - nobody's comparing Honda's RWDs to FFs, they're different drivetrain layouts. Apples to oranges, my little friend.
@apexdna Why do you say that? the S2K chassis is amazing, its rigid and light despite being a convertible. Usually convertibles are known to been less rigid but thanks to s2k's x frame its strong. It's light too, the S2k has been known to have cornering abilities to beat the NSX in a few corners. The civic or integras were never compared to the NSX. If anything s2k chassis > civics or integras. Just by that fact its FR it has more potential and even stock more ability than a FF.
@c312eal What is exactly did I say? I have nothing against the S2000 chassis, in fact I think it embodies Honda's spirit better than any other Honda...but I also tend to think that the best Hondas are FFs, since that's what Honda excelled at the most, and by far better than any other car manufacturer. All I'm saying is that car for car, there are better FR roadsters out there...and MRs.
@c312eal Fail on your part. S2000 embodies Honda's spirit. NSX is pinnacle of Honda's involvement in Formula 1. But FF is what Honda has excelled at the most, show me a better FF car out there...
@apexdna Wrong best honda is MR or RWD. Honda's F1 technology trickled down to RWDs 1st after all F1 isn't FF, its RWD so RWD represent Honda's F1 spirit.
@c312eal Yes, most of the major technology from Honda's involvement in Formula 1 "trickled down to RWDs" AFTER its use in earlier FF Hondas...only one rear-wheel-drive Honda fully embodies Honda's involvement in Formula 1, the NSX. The majority of it's vehicles that benefited from said involvement were FFs, which are still considered the best FF cars ever made.
People have blinders on when it comes to the staggering performance of honda's FF cars. I'm glad to see that another person knows the truth and is spreading the word. Maybe in the near future gray-haired sports car drivers won't be so dumbfounded when I easily stay on their tail in the mountains in a civic with nothing done to it but flashpro :D
These japs as you mention built these cars. Wat you just learned here... was done two years ahead in Japan. I think they know more about BALANCE then most dumb kids in the states who still thinks a bodykit is BADASS.
the RWD is good for racing and exelent for drifting and gives better handeling but FWD is good for just driving a car in the city but i really prefer FWD's i wish the del sol was FWD :(
Pretty sick but that S2k Type S shoulda been way better. and i dunno why these japs still dont use frankenstien motors in those things. the K24/K20 Frankenstien pumps out 300hp+ with all stock parts.
@apexdna Well than it's established. NSX is king of hondas. That's why it was representing Honda in Super GT instead of a Civic and the king of Hondas happen to be a RWD so RWD more potential than FWD.
@c312eal Did you know that Keiichi Tsuchiya lapped Honda's own Suzuka high-speed circuit in a CTR faster than Ayrton Senna did in an NSX by a good 15.2 seconds? Just saying...all this hate on FFs (namily Hondas) is not necessary. Get off the FR bandwagon...let's not argue like 10-year-olds which car is better, because in reality, the choice is very subjective. In fact, I think the best car ever made is the 180SX, but I know a lot of people would disagree, and they will be right...
@apexdna I don't know if you watched Senna do his lap but it was pretty casual. I don't hate FF's. I myself am a Honda fan and I love all the Type Rs. Since you mentioned KT, did you know that KT set the Tsukuba circuit record with an NSX? And that his favourite car is the FR 86? He also set the tough record in his home Usui touge with an NSX. Do you see any FF cars in here? Like I said okay under 300hp FF has a chance but over 300hp FF just doesn't have that potential
@c312eal Yet the "Type R" moniker came from the "R" in the SiR models i.e. Civic. Know your roots. That same CTR lapped Tsukuba faster than both, the 3.2 version of the NSX and the original, by 1.22 and 2.73 seconds respectively. And again, where have I said that FFs are any better than FRs? The best FFs happen to be Hondas, and therefore the best Hondas are FFs, drivetrain layout-wise...those are the same FFs that take on the big dogs, so give credit where credit is due.
@apexdna Type R is in a Different category. Type R is totally different. Born from Senna urging Honda to make the NSX more rigid and stiff to make it even more race car like. More formula 1 like. Not from SiR. The CTR didn't lap faster than the NSX-R around the Tsukuba circuit and the fastest lap record around Tsukuba and Suzuka outside F1 is held by the NSX. Best FFs are Honda but FF isn't the best therefore best Hondas are not FF LOL Honda's Power of Dream come true was the NSX.
@c312eal Did I compare CTR to NSX-R? NO. Honda's best efforts in recent years ARE the NSX and S2000, but have they excelled in the respective drivetrain layout category? NO. FFs, on the other hand, is what they did BEST. Know your roots.
I hope they do more stuff like this on Top Gear Japan, better know as Best Motor TV.
buccavich 20 minutes ago
I want that double r that thing is a beautiful machine
integraDA87 3 weeks ago
Now just imagine. 4 cylinder non turbo charged producing 450kw's that would be awesome.
Dimitri0809 3 weeks ago
nun bin selber aus Frankfurt
KyleTiaau631 1 month ago
VVVTTEEEEECCCCC
Xtr3met3 2 months ago 4
and NSX of course.. but i'm just talking about this video now
XlopenX 2 months ago
let Tsuchiya drive the s2k, the tables will be turned.. lol
civic and s2k have their own ups and downs, overall, honda's best creations!
XlopenX 2 months ago
@XlopenX Sorry to tell you this but NSX was quote from Honda "OUR DREAM COME TRUE" coming from the company that speaks about the power of dreams. The NSX is faster than the s2k. MR layout with more power and just as light as the S2K with a longer more stable wheelbase that was design for high speed cornering. A civic has nothing compared to the engineering marvel of the NSX.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal What about double-wishbone suspension, VTEC, and PGM-FI? All of that came years before NSX...if it weren't for the Civic, and the earlier efforts in F1, there wouldn't be an NSX in the first place. And if Honda didn't start making cars with the original S-roadster, the S500, there wouldn't be an S2000 as well...know your roots.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna Well if you put it that way, to know your roots. Honda started off with the FR S500 So if the S500 didn't have an engine either will your civics. NSX technology was ahead of its time, what made the engine in the NSX special wasn't just VTEC. Variable valve timing wasn't invent by Honda. The C30A had titanium rods and a coated bore to make the engine super durable and high revving.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal So you're saying that the original B16A wasn't as "super durable and high revving" as NSX's C30A?
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna Use your head man. Honda's best cars are FFs? I think even Honda would like to disagree. When Honda wants to get down to business and make as serious sports car, its a RWD. Either a FR or a FF. You're arguing that Honda's everyday car is better what Honda puts it's best effort into when making a sports car? You're insulting Honda. NSX and S2K are the 2 best Hondas made. One MR one FR. Not the different generation of civics not the integras.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal Sure, but again it's not what Honda excelled at the most, efforts aside. Best MR: any super car will do, let's not get into the details here. Best roadster: any English-based/inspired roadster, like Mazda Miata for example. Best FF: the Civic-based chassis. I hope that cleared it up for you...there's no car to car comparison here, it's strictly drivetrain(layout)-wise between car manufacturers.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna Stop using Miata when Honda's in house S2k smokes it. Honda excelled in making RWD cars. NSX revolutionized the auto industry even the super car industry. The S2K was being compared to the bum z4 and porsche boxster on top gear. Both praised as amazing cars with amazing driver feel to it. S2k was compared to the 350z. the Z is faster but ppl liked the s2k because it felt like a purer sports car. Honda's best were the NSX and s2k.
c312eal 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@c312eal "Stop using Miata when Honda's in house S2k smokes it."
Since when? Ever been to auto-x?
"Honda excelled in making RWD cars."
Anybody, BUT Honda.
"NSX revolutionized..the super car industry."
It's NOT a super car.
"Honda's best were the NSX and s2k."
Car for car? Yes. Drivetrain layout-wise? NO.
apexdna 2 months ago
@XlopenX Very true...
apexdna 2 months ago
@SpideyFan6010 Not necessarily. Fadster.
apexdna 2 months ago
Comment removed
apexdna 2 months ago
K20A is a better engine than the f20c, even though I prefer S2k, its engine is inferior in this case.
NewVanillaBear 3 months ago
@NewVanillaBear you my friend do not knw wtf you are talking about,, k20 better then the f20? lol, y? the only thing the k20 has that the f20 doesnt is the ivtec, f20 has a better flowing head,mani,block,crank,pistons,rods,you name it, and each are hand put together, s2k engine>k20! im not saying the k20 engine is crap, cus its far from that, its a amazing motor as well,
monster2000k 3 months ago
@monster2000k People actually swap K20s into S2000s and not the other way around.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna im actully in that line of work, the company i work for, we do alot of fab work on already excisting set ups, and so far from what we know, learned, thats pretty much the only thing the k2o has on the f20... ivtec, stock for stock it wouldnt even be a fight, modded k20 do put down more cus of it, but a f20 with the ivtec kit blows everything out the water, 30 + hp on just adding the kit alone, ty, you have been schooled.
monster2000k 2 months ago
@monster2000k Even then, K-series still has better aftermarket support which says a lot about the engine, especially considering that the best Hondas are FFs imho and swapping a F20C into FF chassis isn't feasible, am I correct? Anyways, it's like comparing a D16A6 to a Z6, sure Z6 is better out the box, but A6 has that much bigger potential, so in the end A6 wins, and that's with the head comparison alone...but I do have to admit I AM new to the newer stuff tho, no pun intended.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna and pro drifters swap F20Cs into ae86s not K20. K20 is a great engine but the F20C makes more power.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal That's because F20C is an RWD-based engine, am I correct? Just because something is better out-of-the-box does not make it better overall...
Engine for engine: K20A > F20C
BUT, if it's in an S2000, why put a K20A, if you have an F20C already?
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna Because the K20 is a new engine that the F20C. It has new technology ex iVTEC vs VTEC. And stock wise the F20C still makes more power and revs higher. If equipped with the iVTEC kit, the F20C will be even better.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal Just because the engine is making more power from the factory does NOT make it a BETTER engine OVERALL...there's so many other factors to consider, beginning with aftermarket support and all the way to the actual usage of the motor, both by the manufacturer and the public.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna I have a b16a in my civic. I'm not saying that but titanium rods and fiber coated bores were unheard of when the NSX came out. The C30A is a racing engine too. It was used for racing by Honda.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal So do B16As...look at DOHC ZC, D16A1 and USDM non-VTEC B18s and compare them to Honda's RA168 Formula 1 engine.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna Compare them to the RA 168? The 168 was a turbo and these engines are N/A. They're not even the same aspiration. It's a V6 compared to your L4. Infact even the principles of the 168 are different than your engines. When Honda puts effort into something they're trying to make their best car. Their best efforts were the NSX and the S2K both which were praised highly. NSX being their flagship. NSX best 2nd is S2K. See ya rice boy. Have fun getting smoked in your FF.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal "When Honda puts effort into something they're trying to make their best car."
They've made the best FFs the world has ever knew. I'm not ragging on the NSX or S2000, I'm far from it...for example, if I could afford a proper MR, why would I buy an NSX when I can buy a McLaren F1? The best MR ever made.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna Because the McLaren F1 was based on the NSX. The NSX is a lot cheaper, cheaper to maintain and more reliable. When Gordon Murray was designing the F1 he test drove ferraris porsches lambos and the NSX. And nothing impressed him like the NSX and he wanted the F1 to be like the NSX but better. He approached honda 1st to make an engine for the F1 but honda turned him down and he went to BMW. Learn you roots boy. Really funny how you drew up F1 vs NSX. Gordon Murray owned an NSX btw LOL
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal With that thought process, an '86 Si with D15A is better than the latest CTR, since you can trace the history of the current K20A down to the early EW/D15 engines...you admit that the best MR is the McLaren F1, and NOT the NSX, then why not accept that best Hondas (drivetrain-layout-wise) are FFs...I don't think there's a bigger category to which to judge upon.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna Well if you want to keep trace then. All these engines are passed down by the S500 engine and FR. Doesn't prove that your FFs are the best Hondas. A car isn't measured just by the layout. It's everything working together that makes a car. Best Honda ever is the NSX.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal As in Honda? Perhaps. But that's not what Honda has excelled at, drivetrain-layout-wise on a worldly scale.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna And just to tell you an engine's potential could ONLY be used to the max with the proper layout. The engine's job is to provide power to the wheels and the wheels to the road for maximum speed. The K20A potential isn't used to the max by a FF but by FR or MR cars. For example, the Helise. Lotus elise toyo engine swapped for the Honda K20A. With this a Elise is able to keep up to with even porsches on tracks. But it doesn't prove that the civic ff chassis are the best honda chassis.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal First of all, K20A is an FF engine. And second, since Honda has excelled at FFs more than any other car manufacturer, makes it the best Honda engine ever made...
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna No K20A is an engine that Honda put into a FF car BUT it could be used for different application. Engine potential doesn't represent a drivetrain's potential. Drivetrain and engine are in separate categories. Get your facts straight. I can take a FF engine and put into an MR. I can also take an MR engine and put it into a FF. I've been in an accord with a C30A. True the K20 is probably one of the best engines Honda made but doesn't meant Honda's best cars are FF.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal And who made the best FF cars? Honda.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna True but they're not Honda's best cars. Just every other company sucks at making FFs.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal Not necessarily, as there were some close shots in the past. Cars like the Nissan Primera, which was very successful in touring car championships, equipped with FR-based SR20 and double-wishbone suspension. Toyota's FF AE-chassis with F1-derived 4AGE, one of the few motors with 5-valves-per-cylinder (found only on cars like the Ferrari F355). FF Alfa Romes, which were just as successful in touring car racing, with interesting suspension setups. Peugeot 200-series and others...
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna LOL the 4AGE is not F1 derived. The 4AGE was made WAY before Toyota joined F1. Prior to 2002, Toyota had no F1 experience therefore the old 4AGE was not related to F1. Infact road vehicles engines are nothing like F1 engines. If you drove an F1 engine like a road car, it'd break.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal I meant Formula Atlantic, which is not that far-fetched from the Formula 1 you know.
"Infact road vehicles engines are nothing like F1 engines. If you drove an F1 engine like a road car, it'd break."
Do you not understand the word "derived"? Wow, your English IS bad. No wonder you keep on arguing (that's not reasoning btw)...or maybe you purposefully keep on misunderstanding to KEEP ON arguing. What a drama queen.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna Formula Altlantic is not that far-fetched from F1? LMFAO open wheel vs closed wheel. Road car chassis vs machines built purely for speed. Sorry you don't know jack shit. 4AGE derived from F1 LMFAO That's the funniest thing I heard. Oh you're losing the battle and going to get super technical now with english LOL I understand derived quite well. I don't think you understand what F1 is. Your sense of cars is horrible. What a pathetic wannabe car enthusiast. You really no nothing.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal "Formula Altlantic is...closed wheel."
Formula Atlantic IS open wheel. Who doesn't know jack shit now?
"Road car chassis vs machines built...for speed. "
Aren't you the one that keeps on crying that NSX is the F1 car reincarnation for the street? How contradicting of you.
"Oh you're...going to get super technical now with english..."
It's a sign of immaturity...kid.
"I don't think you understand what F1 is."
Think what you want, whatever makes you feel fuzzy inside.
apexdna 2 months ago
K.Tsuchiya can be driving a horse powered wagon and drift better than I can
CBPFG2963 3 months ago
Tsuchiya In CIVIC TYPE R :D Yayyy :P
Zainali92212462 6 months ago
Where's the NSX?!
ClubbySuperCharged 6 months ago
@ClubbySuperCharged It's MR, not FF or FR...
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna This should be a Honda battle.
ClubbySuperCharged 2 months ago
@ClubbySuperCharged It is, they were comparing new Civics (at the time) vs. still-in-production S2000s, NSXs were no longer made (at the time).
apexdna 2 months ago
those s2000 have the amerikan f22c engine... with the JDM 250ps F20c they would rip all civics
gpower88 7 months ago
i bet i can beat tsuchiya(DK) in a 3 lap race in tsukuba...provided we race in GT5!
xD so ASIANS cant drive you say???? LMFAO we asians forgive you :)
jdmbanzai 7 months ago
I wonder why Honda never made a S2000 Type R... that would've been sweet! I mean the Type S/CR isn't really made in the same way as a Type R car. I think that the result of something like that would've been interesting to see
zeroswings2 8 months ago
@zeroswings2 Cost more money.
PhreshNBeat 8 months ago
@zeroswings2 there is a type R s2k.
and its f*cken QUICK
T1twins 8 months ago
@T1twins No, there isn't it...
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna thats depends on where you live my friend.
T1twins 2 months ago
@T1twins And where that might be, amigo?
apexdna 2 months ago
@zeroswings2 The S2000 as is has enough potential. It was built for performance. Nothing less. No need to change a thing, IMO.
abnormalmindset 4 months ago
Forget about Mugen's and Modulo's FD2s and their drivers, the Drift King and Hattori aka "FF Master"...the fact that a factory FD2 was faster than both S2000s @ Tsukuba, the mecca of time attack, is telling us something, especially considering the fact that S2000s have double-wishbone suspension all around (versus just the rear in FD2).
apexdna 2 months ago
what is it with a lot of youtube kids and the word "Civic", it could be the greatest car ever made but call it a Civic and there little brains just won't accept it. Also this long standing notion off all RWD being better than any FWD, its just stupid.
Why the Civics won hear with comparable power i might add, is because they are the first true type r civics in ten years. Type R means something its not just a badge, on a touge the S2k would win but on a race track a true Type R is in its element
timmyXx101xX 10 months ago 2
@timmyXx101xX Apples to oranges, my friend. An S2000 was created to celebrate the Honda's 50th anniversary, and as a tribute to the first Honda automobile, the S500. But you're right, both drivetrain layouts have their own advantages and disadvantages, whether it's power or handling. Type Rs came from SiRs which came from Si's. The F1-derived VTEC first appeared in 1989 on a Civic-based chassis.
apexdna 2 months ago
Great vid and great drivers.
Michaelswk93 10 months ago 2
why all the hating in the end it is all honda so it doesnt matter who win if you are a true honda lover why can you not enjoy the video like these bastard that act like a kid driving in these cars that i would love to own
powerofdreams666 11 months ago
whys it take a rwd car too be respected lol?
beaudiggler 1 year ago
@beaudiggler Drive one and you'll spin out then find out that RWD is much harder to control. You must have great pedal work and the car must have a great balance of power and handling. If the balance is off, the driver will have a hard time flooring it. Even if you boost the power, that actually might make it worse if your handling doesnt match that power
otoakki 1 year ago
@beaudiggler Because of the current bandwagon...
apexdna 2 months ago
only honda ill ever respect is a rwd one.
iknowcarsbetterthanu 1 year ago 4
@iknowcarsbetterthanu Yet the best Hondas are FFs, not FRs...
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna at gas mileage and practicality yeah
iknowcarsbetterthanu 2 months ago
@iknowcarsbetterthanu No, I'm talking about the best, period. Who made a better FF than Honda? Nobody. Sure S2000 is ONE of the best FRs out there, but it's NOT the best FR ever made...even if we rounded it out to an "FR roadster", Miata still takes the prize.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna well yes when you put it like that it is true. A honda ff outclasses its competition better than a honda fr. I thought you meant something like a civic is better than an s2k
iknowcarsbetterthanu 2 months ago
@iknowcarsbetterthanu To some extent...but that strictly depends on how you look at it tho, because if you believe that FR is better than FF - then yes, S2000 is better than any FF Honda has ever made. BUT if you were to ask what is a better Honda? Then by all means, the Civic-based chassis (including Integras) takes the prize...
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna that is for sure but unfortunately, best to me is strictly down to performance capability on a race track. So in that retrospect most fr's are better than the civic. But thats just my opinion.
iknowcarsbetterthanu 2 months ago
@iknowcarsbetterthanu Again, not necessarily. Most factory FRs tend to understeer like pigs anyways. Drivetrain layout has very little to do with the actual handling of the car. Both drivetrain layouts have their advantages/disadvantages...some of the best rally and touring cars, are FFs. Honda won both 2010 & 2011 BTCC in their Euro Civic (which isn't that great to begin with).
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna yes they both have advantages and disadvantages. But a tuned fr can put more power down better than any tuned ff. All high end circuit cars are rwd. But ff's are usually lighter than fr's so in competitions where the max power isnt too high like in some rallies and hill climbs ff's can out do fr's.
iknowcarsbetterthanu 2 months ago
@iknowcarsbetterthanu Very true. FFs also have less power loss thru drivetrain. And by rally, I mean Group A, and later, the WRC - the pinnacle of automotive racing. Even Formula 1 can be traced back to the rally racing, which lent a lot of it's technologies to Honda road cars (namely FFs) in the late '80s/early-'90s...the VTEC, the double-wishbone suspension, and programmed fuel injection all came from Honda's efforts in Formula 1 during those years as an engine supplier.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna Funny thing is the NSX was made and designed inspired by F1. It was to celebrate their success of F1 having direct input from the F1 legend Senna. NSX embodies Honda's F1 effort. These technologies were implemented into the NSX before it was trickled down to the FFs of Honda.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal Yet "top 3" technologies borrowed from F1, the (1) double-wishbone suspension and (2) PGM-FI was found as early as 1985 in Accords, with (3) VTEC in the 1989 Civic SiR, a whole year before the release of NSX in 1990...
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna But none of those cars had the spirit of formula one. Accord doesn't Civic doesn't. The NSX was Honda's (I quote) "Our Dream come true" Honda doesn't refer to the civic as that. They never asked Senna for his direct input in making a civic because at the end of the day the civic was a casual car and the NSX was the serious sports car. Notice when Honda decides to make a SERIOUS sports car they go RWD?
c312eal 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@c312eal "...none of those cars had the spirit of formula one."
They had, but not to an extent that NSX had later in time.
"They never asked Senna for his direct input in making a civic..."
watch?v=rZFPWsMhF58 & e5K1iOqWs4g (link no longer works)
"...the civic was a casual car..."
The Civic-based ITR of the '90s IS an FF sports car.
"Notice when Honda decides to make a SERIOUS sports car they go RWD?"
That's very subjective, as Honda did NOT make the best MR or an FR roadster...
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna Under 300hp FF has a chance. But no matter what FR's advantages are greater. FF adds addition wear on the front tires. Think about it you're using 2 tires to do all your work load, accelerating, braking, and turning. That's some stress and wear on the tires. FF also has a acceleration disadvantage compared to FR. Every time you corner exit its like a restart and acceleration starts all over again. FR has an advantage at that time too.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal I'm not gonna argue that FR is overall a better drivetrain layout, but again it depends solely on the application. There are only a handful of people that have mastered the FF layout, and to majority it's still a mystery...that textbook definition you gave me is nothing more than a theory from an FR perspective.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna The best racing drivers in the world prefer FR or anything RWD over a FF. My definition is not just a theory, it's the laws of physics that you cannot escape. You accelerate the weight of your car transfer to the rear, the front lose traction and therefore you lose acceleration. It's also fact that MRs accelerate better than FRs due to more weight in the back.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal At the same time FRs lose stability and therefore the amount of power that can be used. Quit using the "extremes". It's all about setup more than anything else. Professional racing drivers have almost no say when it comes to choosing the drivetrain layout, they're hired to race in whatever car based on regulations of said race. In grassroots racing, the Civic-based chassis does quite well against one of the best FRs imho, the Miata, in SCCA's near-stock ST class.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna FRs lose stability? Yes FRs lose stability at the limit but a FF could not even reach close to the limit of an FR. You have more options setting up a FR than you do a FF. You can manage a FR better than a FF. Professionals racers do get a say in interviews when they test cars. Racing team engineers choose RWD over FF because of RWD advantages. Like I said FF wears out tires more in a race. You said the civics does quite well against a Miata? s2k beats the miata all day.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal That solely depends on the application. You know that, and I know that.
"s2k beats the miata all day."
In another class? Perhaps.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna Well the s2k is a better roadster that the miata. MX5 is 2.0 and s2k is 2.0. They've been compared to before and the S2k raped it on track and on driving feel. They're in the same class imo. Both compact roadsters. Both 2.0L.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal S2000 weights 6-700 pounds more than the Miata. The original statement read: the Civic is dominant in SCCA's ST class against Miatas. There was no mention of the S2000. You wanna make it sound like the Civic directly competed with the S2000, You know, and I know, that they didn't - so why keep on bringing it up? Again, and again, and again...it's getting old quite frankly.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna The extremes? You're using extremes saying that FR's lose stability. Only time it does is when you go over the limit and in extreme situations. Now I'm going to say FF's lose reliability. Why because of the tires. We all know how important tire strategy is in racing. FR turn and brake with front. Accel with rear. 4 tires all sharing loads. FF front tires take all the load. Only when you go extreme will you see which one is better. Racing and performance are extremes.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal I've used an extreme for an extreme. Calm down.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna You day. You said I'm using extremes. when you yourself said FR loses stability. Damn that corvette in that won in Le Mans this year was pretty damn stable to me. It ran 24H and was still going like a rocket.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal And FFs don't lose traction when properly setup. Happy now?
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna Every car loses traction. It depends on the driver. Infact the FF is more likely to lose traction because of the power going to the front.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal Well duh...are you f'n serious? Take a joke, buddy.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna Of course drivetrain has A LOT to do with actual car handling? are you nuts? MRs are known to oversteer and are scary to drive in rain and snow conditions. 4WD is known for understeering but being able to have amazing traction while cornering. FF is known for its characteristics for understeer no matter how well you tune it these characteristic will show at the car's limit.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal That's because the rear wheels in a rear-wheel-drive HELP the car to steer i.e. rotate.
"4WD is known for understeering...
The FR-based R32-34 GT-Rs beg to disagree. You've been watching too many EVO/STi's, which are based on terrible FFs (compared to Honda's).
And again, you're looking at FFs from an FR perspective, FFs can use power where FRs can't and vice versa...although I must admit that FRs can use more power (%) as power (hp) and speed levels increase.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna I'm not looking at FFs and FR from perspective but from physics. 4WD's do understeer. The R32s and R34s are known for understeer because of their overall heavy weight and heavy front load.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal"The R32s and R34s are known for understeer because of their...heavy front load."
The R32/33/34-chassis has a close to a 50/50 weight distribution, just like any other FR car...but you should've knew that already. All you do is argue over the things you have no prior knowledge of.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna close to but it's still a front heavy car. Especially after tuning you can't really lighten the front much because of that iron block I6. Look at the Zenkei R32 compared to the stock. The rear end was able to lighten drastically but not the front. Another point is the ATTESA. You mentioned that FR's from factory understeer anyway, most cars from factory are tuned to understeer for safety reasons.You're complaining of ppl being FR drift fanboys but you yourself is being a stubborn FF fan
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal Stubborn? I actually appreciate different makes, models, and sub-cultures, from Chicano lowriders and American hot rods to So-Cal Hondas and the vastly diverse Japanese car life (which does include drifting, so you don't get confused again). I just hate stupid fads. Go back to earlier comments and read what I've wrote before, because you're beginning to shove words into my mouth - things that I've either never said or quite the opposite. You're basically arguing with yourself.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna FR isn't a FAD, it's been around before even FF. I know what you mean with ppl oh I want FR lots of power and torque so i can slam on the gas and drift. I think thats american spirit. Theres an art to drifting and it doesn't have to be FR. I drift in the snow for fun with my FF. I rip the brake and have some sideways fun. What i really admire is drifting for speed. for example in rally.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal As of 2000s, it is. It's very trendy to hate on FFs. Most Americans don't drift, but they DO like their power, that's for sure. The current mainstream drift scene (both in the US and Japan) is joke. All they do is powerslide. Every drift technique is used in conjunction with "power over". But it's not what it used to be. It was like you've said, the art of getting sideways, whether it's an FF, FR, or AWD. While rally encompasses drifting, it is NOT drifting per say.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna I don't hate FF, just you love them so much that you're blind to everything else. FF isn't the greatest drivetrain. Its just easy to manufacture and easy to drive for everyday since factory cars are made to understeer and the characteristics of an FF tends to understeer. Rally drifting is drifting for speed. KT used drifting for speed and thats what made him the DK. Drifting started out on tough, kinda like tarmac rally.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal Where have I said that FF is the "greatest drivetrain" layout? Answer me. You're the one blind to appreciate the drivetrain layouts outside of your "comfort zone". I have no problems with RWDs, just the fanboys that drive them. All cars tend to understeer from the factory, not just FFs. A properly setup FF can handle just as good (or better in some situations) than a comparable FR, and NO, not better in the "extreme" examples that most of us won't experience anyways.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna It's not hate. FF plays no history in the pinnacle of automotive racing. It's just there because its cheap to manufacture.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal Rally IS the pinnacle of automotive racing. Not only is it the oldest form of motorsport dating back to the late 1800s, but also the most demanding. It gave gave birth to Formula 1 in 1950s, and has seen a fair share of winning FF machines since then. And NO, not in Formula 1, before this stems into yet another misunderstanding.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna My friend I share you great passion in Hondas. Honda is the only one that could make the boring FF chassis fun and interesting. But FFs have no place at the pinnacle of automotive racing and performance. We are always moving forward and trying to make that pinnacle higher and higher and FF just won't be at the top. It'll be there but not at the top. FRs and MR and 4wd just have more potential.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal No place? Anything is possible. Have you heard of Bisimoto's 1004 hp 2012 Si? Or Javier Loarca's 1,125 whp EH hatchback? And for the millionth time, where have I said that FFs are any better than FRs that you have to go out of your way to repeat yourself? Anyways, once this FR dust settles, people will start experimenting with the different drivetrain layouts again like they did in the '90s...back then we had FF drag racing, FF drifting, FF touring cars.
Interesting times.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna You can see the FF disadvantage too once its tuned. FF over 300hp is really not good on track while the FR s2k is still amazing. With over 300hp for a FF on acceleration you're just going to get tire spin because a the weight of the car goes to the back and the front becomes super light. The stress on the front tires will be overwhelming, braking turning and accelerating with the front tires. That's gonna kill your tires faster than a FR.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal You seem very confused. You can't use an FF like you would an FR in certain situations (and vice versa). Yet at the same time, there are a lot of ways you can use a similar method between the two drivetrain layouts to get a similar (end) result. Take a wheelie bar used in drag racing for example - there are traction bars made for FFs. They do the same job of planting the front (they even look the same), whether it's for stability (in FRs), OR traction (in FFs).
apexdna 2 months ago
@iknowcarsbetterthanu Most FRs ARE better than FFs, what's your point? My original statement reads: the best Hondas are FFs and vice versa...have I said anything about the Civic-based chassis being the best car out there? NO.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna I think the best thing to say is that Honda makes the best FFs. But the best Honda's are def not FF's. Have you seen the top fuel s2k? or J's Racing S2k? J's Racing S2k murdered the Spoon FD2 Type R. And Every generation civic chassis is different. So theres no really CIVIC based chassis. The integra's are a complete different chassis family of its own. DC2 and DC5 and have nothing to do with the civics except they're both FF.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal That IS exactly what I've said. What I'm talking about is the double-wishbone equipped Civic-based chassis of the '90s. The Integra, and the Civic on which it is based on, and a few other models like the CR-X and del Sol. A lot of mechanical parts are interchangeable, from engine to suspension. DC2 is based on the EG6 and DC5 on EP3, they aren't all that different.
Know your roots.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna In the racing world (racing = performance) FF can't really compete with the RWDs. Even in JGTC the FF cars had to be given advantages over the RWDs in order to keep them competitive just like how the NSX was given handicaps to let the supras and the gtrs keep up in Super GT. FFs exist because they are cheaper to manufacture and they lose less power to the wheel compared to RWD's but RWD's still accel more just like how 4wd loses the more power to RWD but still accels better.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal "...in JGTC the FF cars had to be given advantages over the RWDs in order to keep them competitive..."
What does have to do with the fact that the best Hondas are FFs?
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna That means Honda's best FF's can't compete with FRs or MRs while NSXs were handicapped in order to give other cars a chance? get it? NSX > any Honda or Honda FF?
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal That's two different categories. Apples to oranges, my friend.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna I know it's hard for you to face reality but FFs are just not that good. Honda only makes FF because they're cheap to manufacture. With your logic I can argue that the best Toyota cars are FF because they're most successful with selling and making FF. They do sell more than Honda. Therefore they are the best FFs and FFs are they're best car. Sorry man LFA is Toyota's best car atm and their past best cars were not FFs either.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal Am I comparing FFs to FRs? NO. Why do you keep on bringing it up?
On the subject of Toyotas, the F1-derived 4AGE engine used in '90s FF Corollas is FR-based. Second, no F1-derived double-wishbone suspension used during those years (or at all) and is the main ingredient in making a proper FF car. It is what set Hondas apart from the rest.
Also, selling a product well does not always make it a good product.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna I don't care if you're comparing. Im saying Honda RWD > than Honda FF. Honda RWD has more potential, better engineered, faster, sportier than any Honda FF. ROFL F1 derived 4AGE? Are you stupid? The 4AGE was made WAY before toyota was in F1. Get your facts straight boy. Little 13 year old kid that doesn't know shit LOL F1 derived 4AGE, too much initial d for you little boy.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal I meant Formula Atlantic, which is not that far-fetched from the Formula 1 you know. Sheesh, relax little man. The NSX and the S2000 are not the best cars in their drivetrain layout category, that IS all. No need to get butt-hurt.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna But the RWD were the best Honda's. Honda happens to make the best lawn mower engines. Doesn't mean those mower engines are their BEST engines. It's the same with with cars. Honda makes the best FFs but doesn't mean Honda's best cars are FFs.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal We're talking about cars, drivetrain-layout-wise, not power equipment. Although Honda''s lawn mower engines do happen to be one of the most widely used "power equipment" engines, but let's not change the subject here, shall we? How many times do I have to repeat myself, before it starts to sink in - nobody's comparing Honda's RWDs to FFs, they're different drivetrain layouts. Apples to oranges, my little friend.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna Why do you say that? the S2K chassis is amazing, its rigid and light despite being a convertible. Usually convertibles are known to been less rigid but thanks to s2k's x frame its strong. It's light too, the S2k has been known to have cornering abilities to beat the NSX in a few corners. The civic or integras were never compared to the NSX. If anything s2k chassis > civics or integras. Just by that fact its FR it has more potential and even stock more ability than a FF.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal What is exactly did I say? I have nothing against the S2000 chassis, in fact I think it embodies Honda's spirit better than any other Honda...but I also tend to think that the best Hondas are FFs, since that's what Honda excelled at the most, and by far better than any other car manufacturer. All I'm saying is that car for car, there are better FR roadsters out there...and MRs.
apexdna 2 months ago
@iknowcarsbetterthanu So not true. The S2k has corner abilities compared to the NSX and we all know the NSX is the king of Hondas.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal Fail on your part. S2000 embodies Honda's spirit. NSX is pinnacle of Honda's involvement in Formula 1. But FF is what Honda has excelled at the most, show me a better FF car out there...
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna Wrong best honda is MR or RWD. Honda's F1 technology trickled down to RWDs 1st after all F1 isn't FF, its RWD so RWD represent Honda's F1 spirit.
c312eal 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@c312eal Yes, most of the major technology from Honda's involvement in Formula 1 "trickled down to RWDs" AFTER its use in earlier FF Hondas...only one rear-wheel-drive Honda fully embodies Honda's involvement in Formula 1, the NSX. The majority of it's vehicles that benefited from said involvement were FFs, which are still considered the best FF cars ever made.
apexdna 2 months ago
But of course i don't know who he is because he can drift in that s2000 any day now and i'd watch...
boobie284 1 year ago
y'know, I was hoping the Guy named oh idk... K.Tsuchiya was put in the S2000... this way the s2000 will always win...
boobie284 1 year ago
The s2000 never received a type-r treatment, so they are not directly comparable.
It's a good race to see how big the difference is.
Also the regular CTR already has some super sticky rubbers... which the s2000 don't
--- AP1 owner
jonathanyip343 1 year ago
@jonathanyip343 i think that its all about the driver... put tsuchiya in a s2000 and no stock type r can keep up... even not a mugen rr
gpower88 1 year ago
@gpower88 I like Tsuchiya a lot.. but Sorry he's no god. FD2 is a great great track car. anyway. faster than stock nsx-type S and R34 on Suzuka
jonathanyip343 1 year ago
@jonathanyip343 of course its a good track car... but youre giong to far if you say its faster than a gtr or a nsx!
gpower88 1 year ago
@gpower88 See it to believe it start watching at 2:39
watch?v=ndaUTJUEzDg
CTR 2'35"20
nsx 2'35"44
rx-7 type rs 2'35"81
evo vi rs 2'36"50
GTR V-spec 2'39"56
jonathanyip343 1 year ago
@jonathanyip343
People have blinders on when it comes to the staggering performance of honda's FF cars. I'm glad to see that another person knows the truth and is spreading the word. Maybe in the near future gray-haired sports car drivers won't be so dumbfounded when I easily stay on their tail in the mountains in a civic with nothing done to it but flashpro :D
CasterTown 1 year ago 4
@CasterTown Thank you. the s2000 is the technology from 10 years ago... and I believe the FD2 is one of the fastest production FF car in the world.
They are very different. Two different unique car.
jonathanyip343 1 year ago
@gpower88 Yeah, like 10 years ago...
apexdna 2 months ago
They should at least bring out a Mugen S2000....
jonathanyip343 1 year ago
This race proves it's all about who's driving. Put Tsuchia in an S2000 and the race would be over on the first lap.
JoMammaSmurf 1 year ago 2
These japs as you mention built these cars. Wat you just learned here... was done two years ahead in Japan. I think they know more about BALANCE then most dumb kids in the states who still thinks a bodykit is BADASS.
trdboi 1 year ago
the RWD is good for racing and exelent for drifting and gives better handeling but FWD is good for just driving a car in the city but i really prefer FWD's i wish the del sol was FWD :(
52nos 1 year ago
@52nos it is fwd
BaySlapzFoLife 1 year ago
@52nos A properly set up FF can handle just as good or better than an FR. And del Sol in an FF.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna It can but after a lap or 2 you'll see why the FF is handicapped to the FR.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal Depending on the application, FR fanboy.
apexdna 2 months ago
The BEST civic is still and only in japan~
kolamper 1 year ago 3
HAX!
fluffskunk 1 year ago
These guys are great! listen to them having so much fun in these great cars! :D
Wloczykij 1 year ago
Pretty sick but that S2k Type S shoulda been way better. and i dunno why these japs still dont use frankenstien motors in those things. the K24/K20 Frankenstien pumps out 300hp+ with all stock parts.
smokedaicebrah 1 year ago
This doesn't mean ones better than the other, more like who was driving better during this test.
dirtbikemike69 1 year ago
i was expecting bettter results from the rr
slinkoer 2 years ago 2
@slinkoer What RR? Did somebody say Porsche?
apexdna 2 months ago
Wheres the NSX to smash all these FF to show RWD KICKS FF ASS!
c312eal 2 years ago 7
@c312eal NSX is an MR, and a Honda...it's like comparing a GT40 to a Mustang.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna Well than it's established. NSX is king of hondas. That's why it was representing Honda in Super GT instead of a Civic and the king of Hondas happen to be a RWD so RWD more potential than FWD.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal Did you know that Keiichi Tsuchiya lapped Honda's own Suzuka high-speed circuit in a CTR faster than Ayrton Senna did in an NSX by a good 15.2 seconds? Just saying...all this hate on FFs (namily Hondas) is not necessary. Get off the FR bandwagon...let's not argue like 10-year-olds which car is better, because in reality, the choice is very subjective. In fact, I think the best car ever made is the 180SX, but I know a lot of people would disagree, and they will be right...
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna I don't know if you watched Senna do his lap but it was pretty casual. I don't hate FF's. I myself am a Honda fan and I love all the Type Rs. Since you mentioned KT, did you know that KT set the Tsukuba circuit record with an NSX? And that his favourite car is the FR 86? He also set the tough record in his home Usui touge with an NSX. Do you see any FF cars in here? Like I said okay under 300hp FF has a chance but over 300hp FF just doesn't have that potential
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal Yet the "Type R" moniker came from the "R" in the SiR models i.e. Civic. Know your roots. That same CTR lapped Tsukuba faster than both, the 3.2 version of the NSX and the original, by 1.22 and 2.73 seconds respectively. And again, where have I said that FFs are any better than FRs? The best FFs happen to be Hondas, and therefore the best Hondas are FFs, drivetrain layout-wise...those are the same FFs that take on the big dogs, so give credit where credit is due.
apexdna 2 months ago
@apexdna Type R is in a Different category. Type R is totally different. Born from Senna urging Honda to make the NSX more rigid and stiff to make it even more race car like. More formula 1 like. Not from SiR. The CTR didn't lap faster than the NSX-R around the Tsukuba circuit and the fastest lap record around Tsukuba and Suzuka outside F1 is held by the NSX. Best FFs are Honda but FF isn't the best therefore best Hondas are not FF LOL Honda's Power of Dream come true was the NSX.
c312eal 2 months ago
@c312eal Did I compare CTR to NSX-R? NO. Honda's best efforts in recent years ARE the NSX and S2000, but have they excelled in the respective drivetrain layout category? NO. FFs, on the other hand, is what they did BEST. Know your roots.
apexdna 2 months ago